To the people requesting TC, nominations will go up in a day or two — sorry for the delay and I am not ignoring.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I wonder why a Pokemon that was banned in the first half of the month has low usage for that month (just in case this isn't satire).
Okay, so... Usage ≠ Banworthiness.
Also, this is straight up wrong, considering the three month cycle we're in. Have you checked the most recent usage stat post?
"Stats for this shift are based on July, August, and September usage weighted equally, with a 4.52% rise/drop cutoff."
how dare you contradict the word of krazykoopa95, who even are you
Honestly, this is where I've been thinking. I voted No Tiering Action in the original. If there was a test again, even for hard ban / no ban, I would vote Ban.
"Why do you keep bringing up Tera?"
I'll go ahead and answer the question nobody asked. Tera breaks broken mons more. (Try saying that five times fast.)
While Tera is pretty readable, and while you can absolutely work around it in most cases, Tera is a very strong option when used effectively - especially on mons that were on the verge of being busted or were already overpowered. I'm not trying to advocate for any action on Tera itself, but Tera does seem to be really good at pushing things over the edge (or making them even more bothersome). It was just worth noting, so I brought it up.
The main difference since then is that the power level has shifted hard up, and sometimes, a cheap turn is all it takes, and consistent checks aren't there often. Like, imagine Kingambit if it was always having a 4x Fighting weakness, or Volc if it kept it's base typing, or a Gliscor keeping it's water and ice weakness. Honestly, I'd support a second suspect, and could bring some Mons back down.
I'm kinda shocked Great Tusk is #1 in terms of usage. I still think it's one of the best OU Pokemon still and can be difficult to truly answer without Tera or one of the RNG birds / Corvi / Cha, but I was seeing quite a bit of slander against it for the past few months, with gamers saying that Zama / Lando-T were better. Personally, I still see a lot of merit to Tusk's offensive utility, with it being able to provide a large amount of value in end-game scenarios against tricky Pokémon like Kingambit and Raging Bolt, particularly if Tera is exhausted. I've been really liking Rocky Helmet too on offensive sets to help chip Kingambit down as well.
Very little to say about the stats aside from that.
Very little to say about the stats aside from that.
In my opinion great tusk is probably the most consistent pokemon in gen 9 ou (besides maybe dragapult) and it is one of the best for it. It just does its job which is clearing hazards and providing mild offensive support. That combined with its strong speed and great defenses make it not only a great mascot for Gen 9 ou but probably a solid threat for generations to come. I would even go as far as calling it the next excadrill.
Is it a building issue you are having or how to play this mon issue?
I will just tell you straight up, Venusaur is a pretty inconsistent mon so I get your troubles, honestly. I feel like the best and most consistent sun teams are the one that don't need 100% sun to be up all the time. Walking Wake, Bolt, Moon and even some fire types like Moth have insane stat lines and the ability to threaten a lot of tier stables even without the sun up. Venu has no such privileges and his viability lives or dies by the sun, making him not as flexible.
1st thing. Try to pair Venu up with a bulky pivot like Slither Wing or Lando (there are a lot more. I made an RMT about an AV Swampert a few months ago, maybe that could work too). Since Venu is pretty squishy and wants to use life orb (otherwise he just doesnt hit hard enough where it matters), he will get worn down pretty quickly. Healing Wish support can also help (Ninetales or Hatt are typical stables). Waterpon doesn't hit that hard in the sun so that is one mon you can actually go raw Venu if you need the health of the other mons, if they don't u-turn that is. You also wanna have hazard control for obvious reasons.
2nd thing. Since Venu is so squishy, it's really vulnerable to priority. You really wanna be careful around dangerous mons like Kingambit or Dragonite but also mons that can take an even boosted hit and put offensive pressure on your team like Pult. Dragonite in general just hard stops Venu so if you see Nite, don't bother setting up, just attack. Setting up would be a waste of time since you will be forced out anyway and if they hard switch Nite in for some reason, you are breaking their Multiscale which is 100% worth it. I would also recommend having your own powerful priority user like balloon Gambit who handles threats like Pult or Dragonite even in the end game and doesn't rely on the sun as much.
3rd Using Venu requires forethought. Setting up requires a valuable turn of your sun but you gotta keep track of the sun turns too. The moment sun runs out your sweep ends. Sometimes it is better to just attack and weaken things, (especially mons with offensive pressure that can take a hit even boosted). More passive teams give you more wiggle room though and setting up early might not be so bad to soften these bulky mons up for other monsters like Wake.
I acutually like EQ Venu. Most of the mons that Venu wants to hit with a ground move get destroyed by EQ too and it has the added bonus of hitting special walls like Blissey, Clod and Slowking harder as you said. Good luck
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Honestly Ground is probably the best type throughout the entire franchise.
It’s the most consistent type and its easy to see why.
Earthquake is basically a Legendary signature move seeing how it has 100 BP and 100% accuracy. Ground at a type is amazing defesively and even better offensively with its resistances being really easy to hit neutrally at least.
Great Tusk may actually be the coolest #1 usage mon ever for this reason: it's never seen before for the #1 usage Pokemon to be good at just 1-2 things. Landorus-Therian has many roles whether it be scarfer, spdef tank, defense invested pivot etc. Snorlax needs no mention, Latias and Jirachi in DPP have heavy versatility as well. Great Tusk and Kingambit as well kind of do just 1 thing, with Great Tusk of course to a lesser extent. In regards to Tusk its a defensive wall that has good immediate damage and semi-setup capabilities with Rapid Spin. It doesn't have roles outside of that, sure there's speed control with booster energy but it's still kind of the same thing a bulky attacker that has some setup capabilities. It's has some of the least versatility in role potential and set potential out of any #1 usage Pokemon, besides Kingambit who also has a similar thing going. Kingambit is a bulky attacker who turns into a late game cleaner, there's nothing else it really does.
BUT I think the coolest aspect of this is because Great Tusk/Kingambit lack versatility in options, when the meta changes to hurt Kingambit or Great Tusk, it's up to these Pokemon's allies to limit the negative meta changes. This is a bit of a complex idea but for example when Moltres became more popular this obviously hindered Great Tusk due to Flame Body. Unless you run troll Head Smash, you'll have to change your TEAM STRUCTURE to accommodate for new weaknesses Great Tusk has as it's a limited Pokemon. We saw these changes as well, Great Tusk + Garganacl bulky offense has become a more popular idea as Tusk Knock's molt and from there Garg forces pressure with Stealth Rocks or Salt Cure since it comes into Moltres everytime which will happen if you are using Great Tusk. For the first time ever the BEST Pokemon, can't adapt (outside of Tera ESPECIALLY in regards to Kingambit) which makes for some really interesting changes to team structures as the metagame changes over time.
In regards to the opposite where a good Pokemon is constantly able to adapt to meta changes, look no further than SS OU. Landorus-Therian was running defense invested sets for a while until it received more pressure from Pokemon like Dragapult, in which it changed to more Sp.Def orientated EV spreads.
Example of current BO garg + tusk team in high ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2210513777
BUT I think the coolest aspect of this is because Great Tusk/Kingambit lack versatility in options, when the meta changes to hurt Kingambit or Great Tusk, it's up to these Pokemon's allies to limit the negative meta changes. This is a bit of a complex idea but for example when Moltres became more popular this obviously hindered Great Tusk due to Flame Body. Unless you run troll Head Smash, you'll have to change your TEAM STRUCTURE to accommodate for new weaknesses Great Tusk has as it's a limited Pokemon. We saw these changes as well, Great Tusk + Garganacl bulky offense has become a more popular idea as Tusk Knock's molt and from there Garg forces pressure with Stealth Rocks or Salt Cure since it comes into Moltres everytime which will happen if you are using Great Tusk. For the first time ever the BEST Pokemon, can't adapt (outside of Tera ESPECIALLY in regards to Kingambit) which makes for some really interesting changes to team structures as the metagame changes over time.
In regards to the opposite where a good Pokemon is constantly able to adapt to meta changes, look no further than SS OU. Landorus-Therian was running defense invested sets for a while until it received more pressure from Pokemon like Dragapult, in which it changed to more Sp.Def orientated EV spreads.
Example of current BO garg + tusk team in high ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2210513777
This replay is hilarious. You played well, not a knock on you at all, but I just need to point out your opponents play.
Turns 1-3 opp switches.
Turn 4 Rillaboom presses knock off
Turn 6 we get stealth rocks, ok
Turn 7 is a Lando-T psychic for no progress
It isn't until Turn 19 that opponent finally goes for an attack with Heatran body press. They even showed that Glowking tanks Great Tusk and could blow it up, but no, pivot only.
Our next attack comes 6 turns later when Heatran clicks magma storm on turn 25.
I don't even know what I'm trying to say with this post. I'm not really trying to criticise your opponent either. I guess I'm trying to say momentum is a means of gaining progress. If you're foregoing clicking progress to 'gain momentum' you aren't actually benefiting.
Brainrot. Literally brainrot.
Stop me if you have heard this before. Great Tusk is a ground type pokemon with good speed good attack high defenses (all this compared to the rest of the tier) and access to the move rapid spin. It is generally used as a rapid spinner that can provide mild attacking support but sometimes it uses more offense tailored sets.
What pokemon that was especially good in gen 5 and 6 does this sound like?
Holy shit thank you for the detailed write up. I've been using suggested Venu teams cuz in theory I like the idea of the coverage Venu brings, but it's just felt like I haven't been 'getting' it in terms of style. This gives me a good deal of insight, I'll have to give it a better run next time..
Yes tusk is similar to Landorus-t but Landorus-t has always had way more versatility in SD, Explosion, U-Turn, grass Knot, Earth Power, HP and toxic utility in older gens, and most importantly the ability to use Sp.def invested sets. In general Tusk is a Landorus-Therian but min maxed to only be a bulky attacker and nothing else, it doesn't have the versatility to really do anything else. Landorus-Therian can be long term speed control via scarf, spdef sponge, a more reliable hazard controller (defog), utility mon with knock u turn toxic, offensive sets with CB or SD or lead sets with sr explosion. I get the comparison but Landorus-Therian if u look at all of it's roles ever has way more tools/roles compared to tusk.
Dude I was talking about excadrill xD but that is a good point
Well now that Kyurem's banned I think it's time I once again address and shill for my strongest soldier: NP 
. Once Kyurem came in, it either claimed a kill on it or heavily chunked your switch in. Now that it's gone, people better respect this thing in the builder. Balance teams actually have less checks against it than they did for Kyurem. I've seen a lot of people say Kyurem 6-0'd balance effortlessly, and altho balance definitely did struggle against it, saying it got 6-0'd is a great exaggeration, and the discourse going around saying "balance is dead" was flat out wrong. Mons like Glowking, Garg, Tinkaton, and Tera Gliscor were all great picks who were able to check most Kyurem sets. However, NP Hydrapple is a mon who has maybe one check on balance in Corviknight, and even that can be beaten with the correct predict. Glowking's kind of a shaky one since Hydrapple can do 80 with Earth Power at +2 and live a Sludge Bomb. Hydrapple also having Regen gives it longevity without dedicating a moveslot to recovery, and allows it to have multiple opportunities to come in and set up. Its defensive typing leaves it vulnerable to tons of threats, but that problem can be solved with Teras like Poison or Fairy. Even tho this requires burning Tera, against bulkier teams it's more than worth it since Hydrapple is claiming a mon every time. I've heard some say NP Hydrapple's bad because Raging Bolt's a better breaker, and I agree Bolt's the better mon overall, but Bolt can be managed with Glowking+Resttalk Lu cores pretty feasibly and Bolt also doesn't have the longevity and bulk to come in as many times as the apple. Might make a more in depth super long post about it sometime, feeling way too tired to do one rn so I'll just cap it off with this: There's no excuse to not respect Hydrapple anymore.
. Once Kyurem came in, it either claimed a kill on it or heavily chunked your switch in. Now that it's gone, people better respect this thing in the builder. Balance teams actually have less checks against it than they did for Kyurem. I've seen a lot of people say Kyurem 6-0'd balance effortlessly, and altho balance definitely did struggle against it, saying it got 6-0'd is a great exaggeration, and the discourse going around saying "balance is dead" was flat out wrong. Mons like Glowking, Garg, Tinkaton, and Tera Gliscor were all great picks who were able to check most Kyurem sets. However, NP Hydrapple is a mon who has maybe one check on balance in Corviknight, and even that can be beaten with the correct predict. Glowking's kind of a shaky one since Hydrapple can do 80 with Earth Power at +2 and live a Sludge Bomb. Hydrapple also having Regen gives it longevity without dedicating a moveslot to recovery, and allows it to have multiple opportunities to come in and set up. Its defensive typing leaves it vulnerable to tons of threats, but that problem can be solved with Teras like Poison or Fairy. Even tho this requires burning Tera, against bulkier teams it's more than worth it since Hydrapple is claiming a mon every time. I've heard some say NP Hydrapple's bad because Raging Bolt's a better breaker, and I agree Bolt's the better mon overall, but Bolt can be managed with Glowking+Resttalk Lu cores pretty feasibly and Bolt also doesn't have the longevity and bulk to come in as many times as the apple. Might make a more in depth super long post about it sometime, feeling way too tired to do one rn so I'll just cap it off with this: There's no excuse to not respect Hydrapple anymore.
Clearly stall Pokémon didn't increase in usage if all of them dropped to UU lol. Like how tf did Clodsire usage fall offUsage changes! Comparingthree month weightedSEPTEMBER ONLY to august
2nd (31.59%) -> 2nd (26.11%) -17%
3rd (24.09%) -> 4th (20.60%) -14%
5th (21.15%) -> 6th (18.46%) -13%
7th (19.83%) -> 8th (17.20%) -13%
9th (19.4%) -> 7th (17.63%) -9%
13th (14.62%) -> 9th (16.99%) +16%
8th (19.78%) -> 11th (16.5%) -17%
17th (12.61%) -> 12th (15.88%) +26%
10th (16.6%) -> 15th (15.29%) -8%
15th (12.95%) -> 15th (15.38%) +19%
23rd (8.94%) -> 18th (11.12%) +24%
22nd (9.71%) -> 19th (10.78%) +11%
19th (12.02%) -> 20th (10.22%) -15%
24th (8.86%) -> 21st (10.16%) +15%
27th (7.66%) -> 23rd (8.75%) +14%
20th (11.93%) -> 24th (8.21%) -32%
30th (5.93%) -> 26th (7.13%) +20%
33rd (5.31%) -> 28th (6.43%) +21%
41st (4.16%) -> 29th (6.27%) +51%
25th (8.75%) -> 32nd (5.76%) -34%
43rd (3.97%) -> 36th (5.13%) +29%
46th (3.24%) -> 40th (4.41%) +36%
ok edited for actual month to month instead of multi month weighted. I think its clear the meta decentralized a fair bit following the gouging fire ban, and balance and stall mons increased in usage a lot to take up some of the slack from offensive mons in the top range.
Note that the stats you're replying to are about the changes from August to September, while tier shifts are based on the three-month period of July to September. That's why Pokemon like Blissey and Clodsire dropped to UU despite having higher usage in September than in August.
I was genuinely shocked that clodsire was going to drop to uu when I saw the tier Shift predictions in September. How the heck did this happen? I thought clodsire was one of the better stall/defensive mons
It is, Stall is just not the most common playstyle on the latter for reasons of both practice and match-time (compared to tournaments where you only need to win a handful of matches against people at a higher skill ceiling and thus value consistency even if individual battles are longer). It just also hasn't had the strongest time in this tracking period thanks to Kyurem, and Gliscor probably won't make that much easier picking up in the latter's wake.