Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[TurquoiseLink]

However there is no denying that hoopa u is extremely powerful and when it gets the chance it will kill at least one pokemon before it either dies or is forced to switch out. Thanks to its vast movepool and extremely high attack and special attack stats it will probably be uu soon and will certainly be one of the best ou pokemon to not be ranked ou. Anyway thank you for reading this and tell me your thoughts on hoopa u below. Anyway that is it for today and I will be back next time on The Random Mons Of OU so byeeeee

I really wish I could figure out how magician interacts with throat spray, it's so inconsistent and the simple answers thread didn't seem to know. Psychic Noise giving Hoopa-U access to instant throat spray + magician steal should be big but it's just so random whether you steal the item or not.

I hit a Blissey on switch in and instantly crippled it by taking its boots. Stealing boots seems to be pretty consistent I guess? Similarly, stealing Garganacls leftovers has been great for that matchup.

Twice though, I hit a Primarina and didn't take it's assault vest. That's the difference between tanking the moonblast and killing the Primarina or just dying for cheap.

 

[UltraSword]

I really wish I could figure out how magician interacts with throat spray, it's so inconsistent and the simple answers thread didn't seem to know. Psychic Noise giving Hoopa-U access to instant throat spray + magician steal should be big but it's just so random whether you steal the item or not.

I hit a Blissey on switch in and instantly crippled it by taking its boots. Stealing boots seems to be pretty consistent I guess? Similarly, stealing Garganacls leftovers has been great for that matchup.

Twice though, I hit a Primarina and didn't take it's assault vest. That's the difference between tanking the moonblast and killing the Primarina or just dying for cheap.

This is kind of why I said magician is a useless ability as it is very rarely beneficial to you. However I do like the idea of using throat spray to boost your special attack even further beyond (Insert dbs reference lol)

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

I'd say im pretty content with Kyurem getting yeeted, its funny how DD sweepers take a comeback late in this gen, I wonder how does OU for the rest of this year playout

 

[Bold School]

I'd say im pretty content with Kyurem getting yeeted, its funny how DD sweepers take a comeback late in this gen, I wonder how does OU for the rest of this year playout

If you think about it, the setup sweepers have entirely overcentralized gen 9. Tera and sometimes Booster Energy allows accelerated setup sweepers with greater offensive and/or defensive utility. Unaware mons, phasing, and priority for revenge killing have been more important this gen than any other gen I can remember. The speed and power boosting setup moves like QD and DD are particularly dangerous in such a volatile metagame. We already had Volc, Gouging, and Kyurem go. This isn't a coincidence.

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

If you think about it, the setup sweepers have entirely overcentralized gen 9. Tera and sometimes Booster Energy allows accelerated setup sweepers with greater offensive and/or defensive utility. Unaware mons, phasing, and priority for revenge killing have been more important this gen than any other gen I can remember. The speed and power boosting setup moves like QD and DD are particularly dangerous in such a volatile metagame. We already had Volc, Gouging, and Kyurem go. This isn't a coincidence.

Most standard setup sweepers i'd DD, S-dance, N-plot, S-smash, are kinda done in by Quark Drive, Scarfers, or Weather speed Doublers, I've experimented and realized that,

Because there's just more momentum in those things since they're not risking taking a hit in the process and they're going first and probably OHKOing, Kyurem and Gouging are the rare case where we see setup sweepers dominate and ruffle feathers enough to warrant a boot

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

We already had Volc, Gouging, and Kyurem go. This isn't a coincidence.

well we can't just cherry-pick 3 banned mons and call it "not a coincidence", we'd have to look at the other banned mons too. there haven't been that many setup mons banned. it's basically just those three and bloodmoon, and sneasler, and baxcalibur, and chien-pao, and espathra, and firepon, and terapagos, and palafin, and urshifu-rs, and annihilape, and archaludon sorta, and flutter mane and chi-yu even though it wasn't the only reason, and formerly roaring moon, and almost kingambit and zamazenta, and sleep whose biggest abusers were setup sweepers, and possibly soon gliscor again, and…

ok yeah maybe there's an issue here

 

[Klobik]

I really wish I could figure out how magician interacts with throat spray, it's so inconsistent and the simple answers thread didn't seem to know. Psychic Noise giving Hoopa-U access to instant throat spray + magician steal should be big but it's just so random whether you steal the item or not.

I hit a Blissey on switch in and instantly crippled it by taking its boots. Stealing boots seems to be pretty consistent I guess? Similarly, stealing Garganacls leftovers has been great for that matchup.

Twice though, I hit a Primarina and didn't take it's assault vest. That's the difference between tanking the moonblast and killing the Primarina or just dying for cheap.

Looked around the PS! Bug Reports section and found these threads: 1, 2

It's a known bug. Cart does not allow Magician to steal items on the turn you consume Throat Spray, I presume because damage is dealt before the item is consumed.

 

[DetectiveDaikon]

well we can't just cherry-pick 3 banned mons and call it "not a coincidence", we'd have to look at the other banned mons too. there haven't been that many setup mons banned. it's basically just those three and bloodmoon, and sneasler, and baxcalibur, and chien-pao, and espathra, and firepon, and terapagos, and palafin, and urshifu-rs, and annihilape, and archaludon sorta, and flutter mane and chi-yu even though it wasn't the only reason, and formerly roaring moon, and almost kingambit and zamazenta, and sleep whose biggest abusers were setup sweepers, and possibly soon gliscor again, and…

ok yeah maybe there's an issue here

Sneasler is Uber????

Im not even gonna say anything but I can guarantee tweaking Tera a bit would probably lift some of the bans, cause I have no words for that, I didn't even know until now

 

[KamenOH]

Sneasler is Uber????

Im not even gonna say anything but I can guarantee tweaking Tera a bit would probably lift some of the bans, cause I have no words for that, I didn't even know until now

Yeah, the snease is uber because for some reason we can't be logical and assume that the move breaking the mon, if it's only on that mon (dire claw in this instance, which causes sleep and thus was banned when sleep was banned) is the problem instead of the whole mon. It's kinda like how Annihilape is banned because of Rage Fist, except in that, Primeape can learn it and doesn't even really use it well iirc so it wouldn't lose much by the move's ban.
But the system is what the system is currently. Sadly ain't much you can do about that.

 

[Srn]

Yeah, the snease is uber because for some reason we can't be logical and assume that the move breaking the mon, if it's only on that mon (dire claw in this instance, which causes sleep and thus was banned when sleep was banned) is the problem instead of the whole mon. It's kinda like how Annihilape is banned because of Rage Fist, except in that, Primeape can learn it and doesn't even really use it well iirc so it wouldn't lose much by the move's ban.
But the system is what the system is currently. Sadly ain't much you can do about that.

Sneasler was not banned due to dire claw. It was banned due to its high 130 base attack + 120 bp stabs (gunk shot, cc/low kick) paired with an absurd 120 base speed+unburden that allowed it outspeed everything and still invest a fair bit into bulk combined with +1 def from grassy seed. All these stats let it abuse tera really well (sv moment) and become a super efficient sweeper/cleaner. The best unburden sets at the time favored gunk shot over dire claw too, it has very little to do with its ban.

 

[Heatranator]

Yeah, the snease is uber because for some reason we can't be logical and assume that the move breaking the mon, if it's only on that mon (dire claw in this instance, which causes sleep and thus was banned when sleep was banned) is the problem instead of the whole mon. It's kinda like how Annihilape is banned because of Rage Fist, except in that, Primeape can learn it and doesn't even really use it well iirc so it wouldn't lose much by the move's ban.
But the system is what the system is currently. Sadly ain't much you can do about that.

Sneasler was banworthy cause of unburden strategies. In fact, dire claw was getting dropped because gunk shot's power was so much higher, you could get even more OHKO's if needed. Sneasler's main issue was that it was basically the fastest thing on the field, had insane damage output, had decent physical bulk with grassy seed, and had extremely limited defensive counters, with ghold, dondozo and id+bp corv being the only things that could even try to take it on, with ghold dropping to shadow claw or lash out, while corv dropped to +2 cc into a follow up cc. So with dondozo being the only answer was dire.
Now, don't get me wrong, dire claw is dumb af, game freak must have been snorting some premium crack when making that move, but it was not what broke sneasler.

 

[Achohermano]

Good morning everyone,

I've been playing for a bit this couple of days after the Kyurem ban and I wanted to give my thoughts on the metagame so far. The TLDR is that I give a 7/10 to the meta right now, which is my best score since gen 9 started. Kyurem ban was a right call and I'm interested to see how the tier moves on from here. I shit in my pants when Gliscor is on enemy team tho.

Longer version:

First of all, I think this change (like 's or 's ban) were for the better. It eases teambuilding and makes it quite easier to play on the ladder while not losing to an unexpecting Kyurem set (which is cool because SV has, at least in modern gen standards, the highest skill floor imo. Making it a bit easier is necessary). Overall (for now) my impression is a positive one.

Second, I don't think that offense is gonna get worse tbh. Hazard stacking will still be the best playstyle (ladder wise, idk about tournaments that much so I don't think I'm allowed to speak about that) and offense will be close behind. HO had a positive matchup offensively aganist Kyurem, in the sense that most of its mons could threat it after a bit of chip or just OHKO it. However, very few of them could actually switch into Kyurem, so I think this is a neutral change for them overwall.

Third, I don't think that balance / stall will be broken. They get significantly better of course (Pokémon like , and will really appreciate Kyurem's absence. There's also a mon that will get MUCH better, but we will bring it up later) but we still have really good and solid wallbreakers in OU: , , , or for example. So I don't think the "ZapKingLu" cores people really feared are coming back.

However, my fourth point is . Gliscor was broken ever since it returned in DLC2 imo. Volc could tera on it and setup with sub, gouging fire could be defensive sets 1v1, and Kyurem could either force a tera or kill it / cripple on of its teammates. And with all of this in mind, in my opinion, Gliscor was still, a top tier Pokémon and a lot of players were calling for a suspect test for it or at least some action. With Kyurem gone, this guy is boutta go crazy and I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes # 3 - 4 in usage (I think, btw, that without Kyurem to cripple it might become # 2 in usage in the tier. And Lando if not speedy taunt is free setup for Gliscor too). Defensive sets are a pain, and SD sets are extremely problematic if it can get a window to setup twice.

I do not think that a suspect test should be made right now of course, the metagame is unpredictable and I think we should wait a month or so. But yeah, we have to look out for it. As people in this thread have already said, SD Gliscor is a consistent wincon that can outlast almost anything, so yeah beware of the scorpion.

And that's it have a nice day folks.

 

[arnimacarni]

With all the talk of Gliscor getting better, I really do have to advocate for my fav mon to use this gen, Tera Poison Stored Power sweeper Cresselia. Eats non-SD variants of Glisc for lunch. It's a Tera hog for sure but I think it puts great work in.

Also I was looking for Waterpon answers, some mon that resists Grass Water and Fairy attacks (bc the moment everyone starts running Tera Dragon it will just slap Play Rough) and was thinking if there would be a certain Grass-Steel mon to help... gosh I miss Ferrothorn, wish it was here, itd make things muuuuch easier in the teambuilder. Hope it beats the allegations and it can join us for Gen Ten with a reformed attitude.

So next idea was, maybe a Grass-Poison mon? Are we about to see Amoonguss or Venusaur more often? Prolly not but I might try them out

 

[TurquoiseLink]

I don't understand why Kyurem leaving apparently makes Gliscor so much better. Kyurem couldn't really switch in on Gliscor well anyway. Kyurem could force Gliscor out, that's it. Lots of things can force Gliscor out, it isn't that hard. Gliscor is strong for other reasons.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

It's kinda like how Annihilape is banned because of Rage Fist, except in that, Primeape can learn it and doesn't even really use it well iirc so it wouldn't lose much by the move's ban.
But the system is what the system is currently. Sadly ain't much you can do about that.

85% of Primeape sets use Rage Fist in its home tier, and any usage in tiers above ZU is pretty obviously because of Rage Fist. It's not a good example of the "failure" to do move bans because it does serve a competitive purpose in a lower tier without being broken.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

How do you even use Venusaur on Sun Teams? I feel like every single time I've tried to use it its gone terrible. Maybe its because I keep trying to do a Earthquake growth set to fuck over Glowking but even with two special moves and Growth it feels like it preforms terribly compared to... Anything else.

 

[Achohermano]

I don't understand why Kyurem leaving apparently makes Gliscor so much better. Kyurem couldn't really switch in on Gliscor well anyway. Kyurem could force Gliscor out, that's it. Lots of things can force Gliscor out, it isn't that hard. Gliscor is strong for other reasons.

Gliscor is strong mostly because it can outlast every single Pokémon and wincon in the format excepting stuff that can OHKO it yeah, and Kyurem was part of that group.

How does it switch? well you just pivot with Corv for example, or a teammate that's inmune to poison (or on a Protect/Spikes turn). And once you're in you not only forced it out but probably deal a huge blow to the team.

Kyurem by playing it smart could actually switch well into Gliscor tbh

 

[UltraSword]

well we can't just cherry-pick 3 banned mons and call it "not a coincidence", we'd have to look at the other banned mons too. there haven't been that many setup mons banned. it's basically just those three and bloodmoon, and sneasler, and baxcalibur, and chien-pao, and espathra, and firepon, and terapagos, and palafin, and urshifu-rs, and annihilape, and archaludon sorta, and flutter mane and chi-yu even though it wasn't the only reason, and formerly roaring moon, and almost kingambit and zamazenta, and sleep whose biggest abusers were setup sweepers, and possibly soon gliscor again, and…

ok yeah maybe there's an issue here

Ngl funniest post on here that isn't a meme xD

 

[pika pal]

I don't understand why Kyurem leaving apparently makes Gliscor so much better. Kyurem couldn't really switch in on Gliscor well anyway. Kyurem could force Gliscor out, that's it. Lots of things can force Gliscor out, it isn't that hard. Gliscor is strong for other reasons.

Gliscor is strong mostly because it can outlast every single Pokémon and wincon in the format excepting stuff that can OHKO it yeah, and Kyurem was part of that group.

How does it switch? well you just pivot with Corv for example, or a teammate that's inmune to poison (or on a Protect/Spikes turn). And once you're in you not only forced it out but probably deal a huge blow to the team.

Kyurem by playing it smart could actually switch well into Gliscor tbh

In addition to this, Kyurem's ability to pressure the team styles Gliscor found itself best at indirectly weakened it because unlike, say, Weavile or Axel Meowscarada, you didn't have nearly as many safe-switch options into Kyurem if it got in front of Gliscor, so whether it was Gliscor or a teammate, Kyurem entry was a major momentum grab chance. Kyurem was also a mon that punished teams playing a long/grind game (whether Stall or just certain Fat/Balance members), which is Gliscor's game plan with Spikes/Toxic on the non-SD sets.

Gliscor improves now because even if an answer hits the field healthy, teammates can more reliably respond to them so Gliscor can be preserved for the thing it needs, rather than risk your Tera or being more significantly chipped.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Weavile may have dropped. But I wouldn't be surprised if we steal it in three months because either way it is not lasting in UU

Also more Weavile means that Gliscor has to opt for teras that aren't normal which means HO that runs Weavile and Dragapult can really easily pressure Gliscor, because it can never deal with both at once, it has to make sacrifices and it can never deal with both.

I think we should wait and see on Gliscor like we did with no sleep Darkrai, as some meta trends that will happen with Kyurem gone could be quite unkind to it like the increased use of Weavile and Dragapult with no Kyurem, because I do see the possibility of counterplay that works being found, because a lot has changed since dlc1 and gliscor has struggled before in DLC2.

I suspect we see a lot more psychic noise on stuff to create more checks into it

 

[UltraSword]

Weavile may have dropped. But I wouldn't be surprised if we steal it in three months because either way it is not lasting in UU

Also more Weavile means that Gliscor has to opt for teras that aren't normal which means HO that runs Weavile and Dragapult can really easily pressure Gliscor, because it can never deal with both at once, it has to make sacrifices and it can never deal with both.

I think we should wait and see on Gliscor like we did with no sleep Darkrai, as some meta trends that will happen with Kyurem gone could be quite unkind to it like the increased use of Weavile and Dragapult with no Kyurem, because I do see the possibility of counterplay that works being found, because a lot has changed since dlc1 and gliscor has struggled before in DLC2.

I suspect we see a lot more psychic noise on stuff to create more checks into it

I personally feel that weavile will be banned from uu anyway so...uh...yeah

 

[SittinGamer]

For whatever worth there is in commenting here since I don't have a badge nor feel like DMing people who do to get a post there, I'm not actually opposed to raising suspect reqs even as a player who is reasonably close to the cutoff now that would likely be "hurt" by proposed ideas. For the longest time I just sort of would make alts and start the climb, but it wasn't until GP's suspect where I realized, "wait a tick why are most qualifiers like, 1650-1750?" We don't even factor usage stats until 16-something, and even if we want to say you won't see real teams until 1500 (this is false, while people be psyspamming at low ladder there are quite a few tier staples even running down there like Molt and Dragapult), that's still only like, generously saying a third of your suspect games are actually at a skill level that shows any kind of mastery. As it stands now, it seems like your first 20 or so out of 30 to 50 matches is just bullying low ladder scrubs, hoping you don't run into another suspect alt, and then needing to lock in for the last third of laddering that kind of matters.

I definitely don't agree with 1900, especially not a FIRST step, and it would appear Finch does too. That said, if we do want ELO to be either a metric itself or a factor like in COIL, I do think that suspect reqs shouldn't be ending for most people before or as they start to count in usage stats. 1800 or some kind of COIL seems the best.

I do understand the claims of elitism coming out, and as a 1500 scrub it does suck reading things like only unmons and shitters clicking random buttons appear below 1700 or even 1800 and knowing the type chart should get you to 1800 or some shit, but I just can't see the current method of suspect reqs as ideal when it takes like 25 games to get to the part of the tier where things even start to matter.

Of the options discussed, COIL seems like the best compromise to me as it allows top players to get their reqs in a reasonably expedited process (CTC probably doesn't need to go 30-0 until 1650 to show he has an opinion on, idk, Gliscor, thats worth hearing) while players who are closer to the "skill cutoff" we want will have to prove they're at least somewhat consistent at that cutoff level.

 

[TheDuckChris]

Usage changes! Comparing three month weighted SEPTEMBER ONLY to august

2nd (31.59%) -> 2nd (26.11%) -17%
3rd (24.09%) -> 4th (20.60%) -14%
5th (21.15%) -> 6th (18.46%) -13%
7th (19.83%) -> 8th (17.20%) -13%
9th (19.4%) -> 7th (17.63%) -9%
13th (14.62%) -> 9th (16.99%) +16%
8th (19.78%) -> 11th (16.5%) -17%
17th (12.61%) -> 12th (15.88%) +26%
10th (16.6%) -> 15th (15.29%) -8%
15th (12.95%) -> 15th (15.38%) +19%
23rd (8.94%) -> 18th (11.12%) +24%
22nd (9.71%) -> 19th (10.78%) +11%
19th (12.02%) -> 20th (10.22%) -15%
24th (8.86%) -> 21st (10.16%) +15%
27th (7.66%) -> 23rd (8.75%) +14%
20th (11.93%) -> 24th (8.21%) -32%
30th (5.93%) -> 26th (7.13%) +20%
33rd (5.31%) -> 28th (6.43%) +21%
41st (4.16%) -> 29th (6.27%) +51%
25th (8.75%) -> 32nd (5.76%) -34%
43rd (3.97%) -> 36th (5.13%) +29%
46th (3.24%) -> 40th (4.41%) +36%

ok edited for actual month to month instead of multi month weighted. I think its clear the meta decentralized a fair bit following the gouging fire ban, and balance and stall mons increased in usage a lot to take up some of the slack from offensive mons in the top range.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I definitely don't agree with 1900, especially not a FIRST step, and it would appear Finch does too. That said, if we do want ELO to be either a metric itself or a factor like in COIL, I do think that suspect reqs shouldn't be ending for most people before or as they start to count in usage stats. 1800 or some kind of COIL seems the best.

my opinion is that coil is probably the best method, but if we switch to elo i'm fine with that as long as the cutoff isn't something as high as 1900, which is something like top 20 right now. that's not a voterbase, that's just a really big rotating council. what we need to do, as i remember someone saying in the pr thread, is determine what we're actually trying to do with the reqs process. are we trying to exclude only shitters and leave voting open to the average or above-average competitive player, or are we trying to exclude the average comp player and only let the higher echelons of the community vote? if it's the first, setting the elo requirements at something like 1700, right above the cutoff for "what the typical competitive player should see and be prepared for", would probably be good enough. if it's the second, it would be a better idea to set reqs at or around 1825, which is the cutoff for the usage stats for "what the best-of-the-best in the metagame are doing" (according to the same post linked above). these are as close as we have to official definitions for where "mid ladder" and "high ladder" start, so i think they're probably the best things to use as a metric for reqs, depending on who exactly we're trying to filter out

alternatively, and this might sound dumb but hear me out, we could just take the top 100 non-council players who are actively engaged in the meta (determined annually by tour circuit results with any ties in point total at the bottom of the top 100 being broken by bo3s) and form a senate, where we'd have 3 tiers of voting on contentious mons:

• council votes on whether to suspect something, as we have now
• if the council votes for a suspect, the senate then votes on whether or not to ban the mon
• if the senate vote isn't a 2/3 supermajority in either direction, it's opened up to popular vote via a suspect test with the same reqs process (possibly edited slightly) and 60% threshold we have now

this has numerous benefits over the current process:

• it streamlines the suspect process in obvious cases like ursaluna-bloodmoon and gouging fire
• it still allows the wider community to have input in more contentious cases like kyurem
• top players don't have to slog through the reqs process every time
• it cuts down on the number of times we have to do actual suspect tests, which benefits low-ladder casual players who are just playing for fun but constantly get curbstomped in very unfun ways during suspects (skymin pointed this out in his proposal for placement matchmaking)
• during especially dire stages of the meta the senate can vote on multiple things at once, unlike the current system where only one suspect can go on at a time
• the senate has decision-making power but less pressure than the council because the responsibilities are distributed among a hundred people, so it's more accessible to people who want to contribute but would struggle with the pressure or responsibilities of councilhood (as well as ex-councilmembers)
• the top 100 players get to be called "senator", maybe they get a fancy banner or badge or something

 

[ULTRA SPACE JAM]

well we can't just cherry-pick 3 banned mons and call it "not a coincidence", we'd have to look at the other banned mons too. there haven't been that many setup mons banned. it's basically just those three and bloodmoon, and sneasler, and baxcalibur, and chien-pao, and espathra, and firepon, and terapagos, and palafin, and urshifu-rs, and annihilape, and archaludon sorta, and flutter mane and chi-yu even though it wasn't the only reason, and formerly roaring moon, and almost kingambit and zamazenta, and sleep whose biggest abusers were setup sweepers, and possibly soon gliscor again, and…

ok yeah maybe there's an issue here

To be fair, a lot of these were problems. I'll go through a few examples that were listed.


Terapagos was mega broken. Its Double Dance and other setup sets were incredibly potent, thanks in part to its ability Tera Shell giving it a free turn to set up if it's at full health. And even if it was chipped prior, Terapagos still has pretty good bulk (95/110/110), so it could eat a hit, at the very least. It could also play the role of a general offensive mon or lean into a more supportive role. It has an absolutely massive movepool, and it definitely put it to good use in its time in OU. That's not even mentioning its Stellar form. I think this statline coupled with what this form does to Terapagos's moves, along with the roles it fills regardless, is enough reason to justify its departure from the tier...

Oh, also, Tera Starstorm becomes a completely unresisted move once Terapagos decides to Terastalize, and if you're Terastalized, it becomes super-effective against you. So there's that.


Ah, the days when Mega Weavile ran amok in SV OU... Those are days I really don't want to remember. Chien-Pao is, quite frankly, an insane mon. While 120 Attack isn't too outrageous of an offensive stat this gen, it gets an incredible offensive STAB combination, an ability that effectively bolsters its attack even more, and a speed tier that's only beaten out by a few things... and even those things can lose to it. Swords Dance Chien-Pao is an extremely deadly sweeper, and Choice Band sets can muscle through just about anything. Chien-Pao also loves Tera, as it can either make its raw power even more ridiculous, bolster its coverage, or resist/be immune to a hit if it really wants to. It doesn't need Tera, though, and it can function on its own just fine.


Annihilape was... well, really annoying while it lasted. It's bulky, it has effectively perfect coverage with its STABs (discounting HZoroark), it has longevity, and it has Rage Fist. As opposed to the other two here, Annihilape was really only a setup mon. It's sort of like Okidogi, but instead of being fun and cool it's just super egregious. Bulk Up makes it really hard to kill on the physical side, and it has enough natural bulk to comfortably eat a special hit or two. Taunt also prevents opposing setup or disruption, provided that you actually get off the move. Drain Punch gives it a way to hit hard and recover health at the same time, and Rage Fist is... well, Rage Fist. It goes from being kind of bad to really good after you take a single attack and it only gets better the more hits you eat, going all the way up to 300 BP. Annihilape doesn't die, and it refuses to die even harder after Tera. Shedding Fighting/Ghost's weaknesses for a better defensive typing like Water helps this scary little simian a lot.


"Why do you keep bringing up Tera?"
I'll go ahead and answer the question nobody asked. Tera breaks broken mons more. (Try saying that five times fast.)
While Tera is pretty readable, and while you can absolutely work around it in most cases, Tera is a very strong option when used effectively - especially on mons that were on the verge of being busted or were already overpowered. I'm not trying to advocate for any action on Tera itself, but Tera does seem to be really good at pushing things over the edge (or making them even more bothersome). It was just worth noting, so I brought it up.

No hard feelings, by the way - I just thought I'd throw in my two cents for once, rather than posting basically nothing.
(Also, if that was a humorous post and it went straight over my head, sorry!!! I'm trying my best out here, I swear...)