Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

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To add to DaddyBuzzwole's comment, weather sweepers in general can be a little stronger than other mons while still not being a problem, because the requirement for weather to be up means they require more support to function, and none of the weather setters are independently good mons. A rain team has to bring Pelipper, who is (apart from Drizzle) generously a PU mon, so every other member needs to be stronger than normal to make up for that weak link.

Minus Electro Shot, Arch would be a rain staple, very effectively covering some of the archetype's biggest defensive weaknesses, while benefitting itself from the weather with a 100% accuracy Thunder. Rain teams actually having a solid defensive core would provide a ton of options, and it's not hard to view Arch as 'too good' for how much it offers to the style, but even with its presence, rain teams wouldn't be dominating.

That said, a single move ban is off the table, so this is meant as an example of how one mon being a little too good on a specific style isn't a problem as long as the style itself is balanced. See also: early Walking Wake on sun teams.
 
Still not quite at the skill and, more importantly, consistency, needed to get reqs but I got closer than ever before with just a lose streak around 1650 so I can't say it was all bad. By the end of things even I'm not sure if it was broken enough to be banned relative the other insane guys floating around the tier like Gambit, but I'll take this ban as a W because blud has just been annoying (dude low ladder apparently loves scarf kyu) and I am a simple guy

Happy wing day to Finch
 
Unscripted said:
I’m confused what you mean by this. Do you mean mons that can repeatedly switch into swords dance Gliscor, or specifically win conditions that can? Iron press :skarmory: or :corviknight: are a particularly good matchup into sd gliscor and can out damage and survive it’s common moves (unless there is some unknown Tera blast electric Gliscor I’ve never heard about). Substitute swords dance :landorus Therian: is another, more niche, answer who loves to feed on SD :gliscor: as well, and I’m sure there are other pivots and non win-cons that can beat sd :gliscor: long term
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Depending on its speed tier, banded Rilla threatens Gliscor as well.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
since the topic of gliscor came up, here are my thoughts on it.

gliscor was unequivocally broken in dlc1, but i don't think it is right now. very strong? yes. the best spikes setter in this endless bloody war against hazards? without a doubt. annoying as shit? absolutely. but banworthy? i don't think so, and here's why:

PART 1: NEW ANSWERS

between new moves, returning mons, and expanded movepools, dlc2 introduced some options that can beat gliscor 1v1 fairly easily:
  • :weavile: thanks to regaining triple axel, weavile is much more splashable than before and has a much easier time forcing tera water on gliscor. if something else on the team has tera'd, weavile is an offensive hard-counter to gliscor and can even use its protect turns to set up
  • :meowscarada: for some reason, meowscarada also gets triple axel. (i'm not complaining, it just doesn't make much sense to me flavor-wise.) this lets it threaten gliscor similarly to weavile, with the added bonus of being able to hit it really hard with flower trick after tera water
  • :primarina: primarina might fall out of ou eventually, but it's still a legitimately usable thing and i'm absolutely here for it. liquid voice psychic noise has the benefit of not only heavily denting gliscor but also preventing poison heal from working for a couple turns, so even if it does decide to tera, it still has to briefly deal with the fact that entropy exists. if gliscor's running knock off over toxic, psychic noise draining kiss primarina is actually capable of stalling out gliscor if it teras
  • :darkrai: lead darkrai forces a 50/50 onto lead gliscor—if gliscor protects turn 1, it can nasty plot and proceed to start going wild; if it doesn't, darkrai can click the funny cheese move and potentially let gliscor get knocked before getting poisoned later in the game. because of how dangerous giving even a single free turn to darkrai is, this is one of the only lead matchups that gliscor might not want to just automatically turn 1 protect on. also, other darkrai sets that carry ice beam give gliscor a lot of trouble, as strong special attackers with ice moves tend to do
  • :deoxys-speed: heavily dependent on the set and positioning, but deo-s can solidly beat gliscor sometimes. if you lead with nasty plot deo-s and they lead with gliscor, gliscor will always protect turn 1 expecting knock off, so that's just a free plot and it's forced to tera or switch to avoid the incoming ice beam. ice beam sets in general are bad for gliscor, especially if something else on the team has burned tera. also, skill swap is a very niche option on deo-s that is incredibly situational and usually bad but can work hilariously well against gliscor
  • :skarmory: this doesn't do jack shit against gliscor offensively, but it hard-walls the eq/toxic set, which means you can just either whirlwind it out (if you're carrying that), pp-stall it, or wait for it to give up and switch, then deal with it later after putting yourself in a better position to
  • :serperior: i mean you just kinda sub and then click the leaf storm button, not exactly a grand strategy behind this one
  • :kyurem: THE BIG ONE. i saved the best for last here—kyurem is the offensive gliscor answer. physical sets force tera water to avoid being slaughtered by icicle spear, then get ddanced on during their protect turns and slaughtered by scale shot anyway. special sets just click freeze-dry and kill it whether it goes tera water or not. this matchup is practically unwinnable unless gliscor runs a different ice-resisting tera than water, and most of those get bonked by earth power, the one exception being… tera ice. and no one wants to be the person running tera ice gliscor
now, you'll notice a lot of these assume gliscor is going to be tera water, which might make you wonder about tera dragon, which was a somewhat commonly seen alternative in dlc1. that brings me to my next point:

PART 2: EIGHT FUCKING DRAGON TYPES

as we all know, dlc2 came with a massive rise in the quantity and quality of legal dragon-types. in addition to the existing dragapult, dragonite, and walking wake, we now also have raging bolt, gouging fire, roaring moon, kyurem, and archaludon, all of which are top-tier mons at the absolute minimum. this has come with a concurrent increase in viability to things that answer dragon-types well and a decrease in viability to things that don't. this means that gliscor's dlc1 answers that it would run tera dragon for—mainly waterpon and non-ice-beam manaphy—are waaaaay less common, and dragon as a defensive tera type in general is not great when the average ou match is seeing so many more dragon, fairy, and ice moves. thus, gliscor is kind of pigeonholed into a single good defensive tera type, which makes it a lot easier to predict if and when it clicks the button. in theory, it could get around this by running tera fairy, but that just shifts the problem from "eight fucking dragon types" to "seven fucking steel types", two of which are top 3 in usage

so gliscor's got more answers and its tera is easier to play around. but it's still plenty strong and can be very annoying if it does pop that tera. unfortunately, popping tera early is risky and gliscor really doesn't like doing it. which is a shame, because gliscor needs to be a water-type more often now thanks to:

PART 3: CLIMATE CHANGE

weather has made a comeback in a big way. every single weather condition got at least one new abuser in this dlc, and most of that is bad for gliscor on some level. here's how it breaks down:
  • :smooth rock: sand is the only weather gliscor isn't really worried about and it didn't get anything to directly contend with gliscor, but the return of excadrill means we have one more hazard remover, which means one more opportunity to undo gliscor's spikes progress. it's not much on its own, but even the small indirect nerfs add up. also, sand is by far the least relevant weather right now, which means that when a form of weather is up, it's most likely gonna be something that fucks over gliscor somehow
  • :icy rock: hail got kyurem, gliscor's worst matchup. not much to say here that wasn't already said earlier, kyurem claps gliscor six ways from sunday. alolan ninetales itself has also seen a bump in usage because of kyurem, and any mon with access to freeze-dry is a mon gliscor is very scared of
  • :heat rock: sun went from being a regular-sized problem for gliscor to a massive problem. in dlc1, walking wake was a terrible matchup for it already, but sun itself wasn't super popular for a number of reasons. now it's back in full force, bolstered by the new protosynthesis mons and the return of volcarona and roaring moon. despite not particularly liking the prospect of being stalled out by toxic/protect or having to eat an earthquake, all of those mons are threatening to gliscor on some level thanks to their setup capabilities as well as their ability to just hit it neutrally really fucking hard. and of course walking wake is still there, giving the exact same amount of problems to gliscor as before but more likely to have sun behind it
  • :damp rock: yes, gliscor can tera water to deal with rain's setters and water-type abusers. but those aren't the reason that rain got popular all of a sudden. the one doing the heavy lifting on that front is archaludon, which can massively punish gliscor after a tera with electro shot. if gliscor doesn't tera, it just kinda gets run over by the rest of the rain team
so, in conclusion, that's why i feel that gliscor is not broken at this current period of sv ou: new direct answers, an environment that restricts its tera options, and shaky matchups against the three most relevant weathers. i do suspect there will eventually be bans that remove or hurt counterplay to gliscor, and it might cross that line again at some point in the future, but right now i think gliscor has enough new counterplay to it to no longer be broken
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all right, now that kyurem is gone, a lot of people will want to talk about gliscor. way earlier in the dlc i wrote this post, and i want to address the points made in it and explain why they're no longer applicable:

PART 1: WHAT ANSWERS?

a lot of post-dlc1 gliscor counterplay has fallen off quite a bit since this post was made. weavile, meowscarada, and skarmory are on fraud watch, serperior is a meme, deo-s has gone from top-tier to mid, and kyurem is banned. as a result of said ban, answers for gliscor are now at an all-time low for this dlc. although it's definitely possible that some gliscor answers may rise up in response to the kyurem ban, i think on the whole it won't amount to enough to keep gliscor manageable

PART 2: FOUR FUCKING DRAGON TYPES

tera dragon is a lot safer to run on gliscor these days. with archaludon, gouging fire, and kyurem being banned and walking wake falling off like crazy, there are a lot fewer strong dragon-type attacks being thrown around. waterpon's viability and usage have also risen massively since the time i wrote that post, which gives gliscor back one of its biggest reasons to run dragon as a defensive tera over water. kyurem's ban also means gliscor has to worry about ice less, which not only helps out its non-tera'd self massively but also puts less builder pressure on tera dragon. all this gives gliscor more variety and less predictability and makes it harder to cover for both in builder and when playing, especially when combined with the point i'm going to make in part 4 of this post (stay tuned!)

PART 3: CLIMATE CHANGE DENIAL

weather has massively fallen off since january. the archaludon ban dealt a crippling blow to rain, the gouging fire ban dealt a less crippling but still heavy blow to sun, the kyurem ban killed the tier's only abuser of snow (not that snow was a viable archetype, but it's still all over the place because of glowking), and excadrill just kind of plummeted immediately so that point about it being a spikes remover is no longer good. kyurem was holding rain back a lot and sun back a little, so those weathers might see some improvement with it gone, but i don't think it will be enough to meaningfully affect what gliscor does

now, those three points are just about how the meta's evolved and changed over the course of the past eight months in a lot of ways that are favorable for the gliscor sets that were being used back then. but what about the gliscor sets that are being used now? which brings me to my next point, and the thing i think pushes gliscor over the edge:

PART 4: THOSE DAMN SWORDS DANCE SETS

swords dance gliscor saw some play in dlc1 pre-ban and early dlc2, but it only recently started becoming a big thing. gliscor has gone from being mostly a hazard-setting poison-spreading knock-offing utility blob to being a nigh-immortal setup wincon that can also serve as a hazard-setting poison-spreading knock-offing utility blob. tera normal facade gives offensive gliscor answers yet another tera to worry about, and one with only one weakness to boot—supereffective hits are important against gliscor because it's really hard to chip, so minimizing the amount of types that can hit gliscor supereffectively (and protecting it from ghold/pult hex) is a pretty sweet bonus to an option that's primarily just to boost facade. non-facade sets like eq knock are broadly useful against wide swaths of the meta, especially with the utility that knock off provides. and recent discoveries are showing that sd gliscor can be ev'd to hit many dangerous speed tiers, so it's getting steadily more difficult to predict what can and can't revenge-kill this thing

so based on the falling off or banning of a lot of gliscor's early-dlc2 answers, and the rising of new gliscor sets that are putting a lot of strain on the meta, i suggest that the next tiering action, whenever that may be, should probably be against gliscor. now this comes with the caveat that i'm not calling for anything immediate—we're just fresh off of a kyurem ban, so we should give the meta time to settle just in case some new counterplay develops. who knows, some new mon might pop up that's super useful with ice tera blast or something, rilla might become actually good again, sinistcha might rise to wall the facade set, something else might cement itself as a way bigger problem, etc etc. but if things don't drastically change regarding gliscor, i recommend a suspect of it at some point in late fall or early winter
 
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Eh, outcome is a bit disappointing but I typically avoided running Kyurem on the teams I built so I can't say I will miss it too much. I think Hydrappl / Raging Bolt have better traits as Dragon-types anyways, with Hydrappl having Regenerator and Raging Bolt having priority + CM + Volt Switch, so most teams will adapt to Kyurem's loss just fine by swapping over to one of these two Pokemon. Kyurem mainly just had the MU fishing in its favor with its random greedy sets, which made it very boom-or-bust compared to raging bolt's consistent excellency.

I think Iron Crown might just be knocked out of OU now, since its Kyurem MU was its main selling point and it doesn't really match up well into many Pokemon in A+ rank now. I actually see it dropping to UU with most teams just running GKing + Ting-Lu instead to just to have the infinite longevity with Regen + Spikes. Its still got its advantages like doing well vs Tera Fairy mons, but I think it'll be in a bad spot and likely won't recover unless we see bans of Darkrai / Roaring Moon.

I don't think Ogerpon-W gets better. It will dislike the prevelance of these boots spam teams (which will get more popular) with mons that it has awkward MUs against like Raging Bolt, Hydrappl, and other grasses that may get better after kyu ban. I think Samu + Zap teams get better and while Ogerpon-W does well against this core, it doesn't do amazing against it long-term once Samu starts getting the layers up and pressuring the Oger-W. At least, this is my initial impression when facing Oger with Samu + Zap teams.

I am hoping we don't have any more suspects for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Gliscor suspects after 2 weeks. Gliscor will likely be stronger in a bootspam metagame with its SD sets being easier to fit on more structures.
 
Mr502 said:
And Christ, talking about a Tera Blast suspect? What is this forum smoking today
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*Insert godot's theme*

Personally I do not care about gliscor or Tera blast and they are probably not ban worthy. However recently I saw a YouTube video (forgot who made it) that made me realize that there is something in ou that should be banned. This is going to be a long one so sit back relax and put your bubble pipe in your mouth because today I wish to tell you why I think booster energy should be banned.

For those that somehow do not know booster energy is an item that allows paradox mons to use protosynthesis and quark drive on their first time on the field without sun or electric terrain respectively being active. I used to think this item was ok but as you can tell I have changed my mind.

This item is basically a choice item but without being locked into one move which is what makes it broken in my opinion. This item basically created another speed tier that only paradox pokemon...and deoxys speed inhabit. It also gives Pokémon that can already boost their speed (like gouging fire and roaring moon) an attack or even a defense boost.

However though there are other reasons I think booster energy should be banned I want to discuss what I think should happen if booster energy is banned.

If booster energy is banned I think we should do a sort of soft reset where we bring back every banned paradox that has been banned and quick ban them if they prove to be too much.

As for the other paradoxes I think it is relatively safe to say the only ones I think will remain ou are great tusk iron crown and raging bolt because they do not need booster energy to function. Of the others in ou currently I think only roaring moon and maybe iron moth will be banned from uu. Everything else will probably drop to uu and below.

I am aware that people may not want to ban booster energy because it will bring about too much change and in a way I agree. I do not think we should suspect booster energy right away and we should instead wait a few months before we act on it or any other issue that could be suspected as the kyurem ban will change a lot and the tier should adjust first.

I know this is a hot take but please try to understand where I am coming from and let me know below if you think the same as me or if you have a differing opinion. Anyway byeeeeee
 
Alternator said:
Minus Electro Shot, Arch would be a rain staple, very effectively covering some of the archetype's biggest defensive weaknesses, while benefitting itself from the weather with a 100% accuracy Thunder. Rain teams actually having a solid defensive core would provide a ton of options, and it's not hard to view Arch as 'too good' for how much it offers to the style, but even with its presence, rain teams wouldn't be dominating.
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Do also keep in mind that Archaludon will be present on other team styles, no just Rain. With a Water resist and a 4x Grass resist, it looks like a decent enough Wellspring answer with some neat role compression in Stealth Rocks and as a check to some Fairies
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Do also keep in mind that Archaludon will be present on other team styles, no just Rain. With a Water resist and a 4x Grass resist, it looks like a decent enough Wellspring answer with some neat role compression in Stealth Rocks and as a check to some Fairies
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While true, I was using it as an example to show how a mon can be "too good" on an archetype, but because the archetype as a whole is fine, the mon isn't a problem and doesn't require tiering action.
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Do also keep in mind that Archaludon will be present on other team styles, no just Rain. With a Water resist and a 4x Grass resist, it looks like a decent enough Wellspring answer with some neat role compression in Stealth Rocks and as a check to some Fairies
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Grassy Terrain Archaludon teams would rise in popularity again too.
 
Happy Birthday Finch.

Anyway, I'm glad Kyurem was banned. I have more complex thoughts about the meta, but in general, OU has plenty of wallbreakers. Offense is not going to be a problem this gen. It just isn't. And neither is Gliscor, IMO, because there were plenty of teams without Kyurem that already had ways to deal with Gliscor.

The only other mon I really want to see banned is Roaring Moon. With Kyurem gone, it is the last of the really egregious DD + Tera abusers left in OU. I know a lot of people and top players in particular don't think Moon is broken. That's what they said about Gouging Fire, too. DD + BE + Tera is always going to be a dangerous combination. Moon has less bulk than GF, but more power and speed. It's only a matter of time before people realize it isn't just a Tera Flying mon and start to abuse the heck out of it.

The accelerated setup sweepers in gen 9 is one of the most overcentralizing things about the metagame. So I don't want to see the unbanning of broken setup mons like Volc or Palafin. I don't really need to get into the stupidity of Quiver Dance or Bulk Up + Jet Punch in a Tera metagame, do I? I'm not necesarrily opposed to seeing certain unbans, like Regieleki without TB. But no setup cancer, please.

Even something like Arch, which people pretend is always fine outside of Rain, might not be. Stamina on something that bulky is kinda nuts. Like Mc Squared already pointed out, Power Herb + Meteor Beam isn't that much of a compromise on what it already did to get banned for Rain teams. But even outside of that, Arch can still probably do a lot of the trades that it always did. Grassy Terrain is going to be extremely good for it. Even something like an AV phasing set:

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock Metal Burst
- Dragon Tail

This would be an absolutely obnoxious mon to face. Somebody would run this on a team with Wish Mola and/or Rillaboom. No thank you.
 
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Bold School said:
Happy Birthday Finch.

Anyway, I'm glad Kyurem was banned. I have more complex thoughts about the meta, but in general, OU has plenty of wallbreakers. Offense is not going to be a problem this gen. It just isn't. And neither is Gliscor, IMO, because there were plenty of teams without Kyurem that already had ways to deal with Gliscor.

The only other mon I really want to see banned is Roaring Moon. With Kyurem gone, it is the last of the really egregious DD + Tera abusers left in OU. I know a lot of people and top players in particular don't think Moon is broken. That's what they said about Gouging Fire, too. DD + BE + Tera is always going to be a dangerous combination. Moon has less bulk than GF, but more power and speed. It's only a matter of time before people realize it isn't just a Tera Flying mon and start to abuse the heck out of it.

The accelerated setup sweepers in gen 9 is one of the most overcentralizing things about the metagame. So I don't want to see the unbanning of broken setup mons like Volc or Palafin. I don't really need to get into the stupidity of Quiver Dance or Bulk Up + Jet Punch in a Tera metagame, do I? I'm not necesarrily opposed to seeing certain unbans, like Regieleki without TB. But no setup cancer, please.

Even something like Arch, which people pretend is always fine outside of Rain, might not be. Stamina on something that bulky is kinda nuts. Like Mc Squared already pointed out, Power Herb + Meteor Beam isn't that much of a compromise on what it already did to get banned for Rain teams. But even outside of that, Arch can still probably do a lot of the trades that it always did. Grassy Terrain is going to be extremely good for it. Even something like an AV phasing set:

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail

This would be an absolutely obnoxious mon to face. Somebody would run this on a team with Wish Mola and/or Rillaboom. No thank you.
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av stealth rock?
 
Bold School said:
Happy Birthday Finch.

Anyway, I'm glad Kyurem was banned. I have more complex thoughts about the meta, but in general, OU has plenty of wallbreakers. Offense is not going to be a problem this gen. It just isn't. And neither is Gliscor, IMO, because there were plenty of teams without Kyurem that already had ways to deal with Gliscor.

The only other mon I really want to see banned is Roaring Moon. With Kyurem gone, it is the last of the really egregious DD + Tera abusers left in OU. I know a lot of people and top players in particular don't think Moon is broken. That's what they said about Gouging Fire, too. DD + BE + Tera is always going to be a dangerous combination. Moon has less bulk than GF, but more power and speed. It's only a matter of time before people realize it isn't just a Tera Flying mon and start to abuse the heck out of it.

The accelerated setup sweepers in gen 9 is one of the most overcentralizing things about the metagame. So I don't want to see the unbanning of broken setup mons like Volc or Palafin. I don't really need to get into the stupidity of Quiver Dance or Bulk Up + Jet Punch in a Tera metagame, do I? I'm not necesarrily opposed to seeing certain unbans, like Regieleki without TB. But no setup cancer, please.

Even something like Arch, which people pretend is always fine outside of Rain, might not be. Stamina on something that bulky is kinda nuts. Like Mc Squared already pointed out, Power Herb + Meteor Beam isn't that much of a compromise on what it already did to get banned for Rain teams. But even outside of that, Arch can still probably do a lot of the trades that it always did. Grassy Terrain is going to be extremely good for it. Even something like an AV phasing set:

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail

This would be an absolutely obnoxious mon to face. Somebody would run this on a team with Wish Mola and/or Rillaboom. No thank you.
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Dragonite is much more problematic than Moon, all of Moon's most popular Tera options have an exploitable weakness and they all die to strong priority. Moon can also be OKOed. Dragonite on the other hand doesn't really even need Tera unless it has to break something super bulky like defensive Great Tusk, it's basically impossible to OKO without either a supereffective multi-hit move (of which there is a short supply) or already being boosted, which basically guarantees the ability to DD on almost anything (much like Gouging Faceplate), and after just a single DD becomes impossible to both out-bulk and out-speed. E-Speed negates both of the most prominent forms of counterplay to setup sweepers, which are priority and speed, namely, something which Moon cannot do.
 
this suspect was very messy but at the end of the day i'm glad to see kyurem go. was getting more and more used to its presence towards the end of the suspect but i think that cutting down on the tier's threat saturation is definitely a step in the right direction. i'm interested in seeing how what's in store for the metagame in the near future (i personally would like to see a gliscor suspect) and i hope that we can keep on pushing this tier in a better direction. happy birthday finch and have a good weekend everyone

oh also i don't think roaring moon is broken tbh. it's scary against fat but it's waaay too reliant on booster energy to break things and struggles against priority users like dragonite, kingambit, raging bolt, etc. lando-T being everywhere is also a massive pain in the ass for it since you always either force a tera (enables gambit/bolt) or get huge chip with u-turn
 
Magcargo said:
Eh, outcome is a bit disappointing but I typically avoided running Kyurem on the teams I built so I can't say I will miss it too much. I think Hydrappl / Raging Bolt have better traits as Dragon-types anyways, with Hydrappl having Regenerator and Raging Bolt having priority + CM + Volt Switch, so most teams will adapt to Kyurem's loss just fine by swapping over to one of these two Pokemon. Kyurem mainly just had the MU fishing in its favor with its random greedy sets, which made it very boom-or-bust compared to raging bolt's consistent excellency.

I think Iron Crown might just be knocked out of OU now, since its Kyurem MU was its main selling point and it doesn't really match up well into many Pokemon in A+ rank now. I actually see it dropping to UU with most teams just running GKing + Ting-Lu instead to just to have the infinite longevity with Regen + Spikes. Its still got its advantages like doing well vs Tera Fairy mons, but I think it'll be in a bad spot and likely won't recover unless we see bans of Darkrai / Roaring Moon.

I don't think Ogerpon-W gets better. It will dislike the prevelance of these boots spam teams (which will get more popular) with mons that it has awkward MUs against like Raging Bolt, Hydrappl, and other grasses that may get better after kyu ban. I think Samu + Zap teams get better and while Ogerpon-W does well against this core, it doesn't do amazing against it long-term once Samu starts getting the layers up and pressuring the Oger-W. At least, this is my initial impression when facing Oger with Samu + Zap teams.

I am hoping we don't have any more suspects for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Gliscor suspects after 2 weeks. Gliscor will likely be stronger in a bootspam metagame with its SD sets being easier to fit on more structures.
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While I agree that Iron Crown loses a big reason to use it with Kyurem's ban, it still checks Glimmora (by preventing it from getting hazards up), Iron Valiant, Hatterene, Deoxys-Speed, Enamorus, Clefable, and Tera Fairy mons as you say, so I can see it still retaining enough usage to stay OU although it'll be more borderline. It also has Psychic Noise to disrupt walls, which is still a valuable tool to have especially with the meta likely becoming fatter.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
av stealth rock?
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You're right. I was rushing and just filled out random moves. I replaced it with Metal Burst for AV specifically, but you get the general idea.
Seraphyde said:
Dragonite is much more problematic than Moon, all of Moon's most popular Tera options have an exploitable weakness and they all die to strong priority. Moon can also be OKOed. Dragonite on the other hand doesn't really even need Tera unless it has to break something super bulky like defensive Great Tusk, it's basically impossible to OKO without either a supereffective multi-hit move (of which there is a short supply) or already being boosted, which basically guarantees the ability to DD on almost anything (much like Gouging Faceplate), and after just a single DD becomes impossible to both out-bulk and out-speed. E-Speed negates both of the most prominent forms of counterplay to setup sweepers, which are priority and speed, namely, something which Moon cannot do.
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First of all, I don't believe Dragonite is problematic. Its main priority has an immunity. So does it's main STAB. (It lacks decent Flying moves besides Rain Hurricane Dragonite.) Either it has to run boots or it fits on less teams. But running boots lowers the power level. And running an item for power further restricts it and makes it more vulnerable to rocks and an RK from something that can survive 1 hit. Furthermore, E-speed isn't a natural STAB. So it cannot use Tera to get double STAB nonsense with it.

Roaring Moon, on the other hand, has Booster Energy to further accelerate the setup sweeping and wallbreaking potential. Both its STABs are usable, but especially Knock Off is crazy. Also, I don't put any stock into its "most popular Tera options" being the extent of its capabilities. I have long been beating the dead horse that folks were severely underestimating other Tera possibilities for Moon. It was the exact same with Gouging Fire. Eventually, people realized that DD + BE + Tera was dumb on at least one OU Dragon.

Finally, I don't think that just RK it with priority is sufficient as counterplay. A lot of things that have been banned can technically be RK'd. Supporting teams are often designed to deal with that possibility. So is Tera. You can't always guarantee that you'll have an appropriate RK'er available if Priority is your only means. Dragonite being able to out priority revenge killers is fine and all, but the trade off is you can only do it with a Normal move. (Aqua Jet isn't threatening on it.) Meanwhile, Roaring Moon has the highest speed tier of any BE mon besides bad Boulder. One DD is all it needs to outrun the entire metagame besides maybe like Rain Barry and Unburden Halwucha. But even then, BE speed + a single DD outspeeds them. RM doesn't need priority to be faster, either. It can use higher BP moves to sweep. Furthermore, Roaring Moon naturally resists a lot of common priority like Grassy Glide, Sucker Punch, and Thunderclap. And then Tera can have it live more. It's not at all a given you can RK it.
 
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I think we should see what rises for a few months and stuff because it is kinda tough to say what ripples a kyurem ban will have. Gliscor may have some adaptations, and something like wogre could come and steal attention away. Who knows?

I think we need to give gliscor some time like we did darkrai because darkrai ended up being nowhere near as overbearing as people found it a month or two ago even with sleep banned.

As for pokemon that may be able to punish this new fast gliscor set, has anyone looked into rockpon? Rockpon really doesn’t fear much at all from gliscor tbh and while it is the worst ogerpon form at the moment, its typing does make for an interesting potential gliscor answer in theory.
 
Happy Birthday Finchinator . Thank you for all your effort running this tier and for always keepin it classy and respectful even when it’s tough.

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BolTingBlazie said:
As for pokemon that may be able to punish this new fast gliscor set, has anyone looked into rockpon? Rockpon really doesn’t fear much at all from gliscor tbh and while it is the worst ogerpon form at the moment, its typing does make for an interesting potential gliscor answer in theory.
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Ogerpon-Cornerstone is not a Gliscor answer since she's neutral to Ground. You would need Grassy Terrain support for her to not fold to Gliscor.

+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 237-280 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Happy birthday, Finchinator! You must be happy that Kyurem went on your birthday.
 
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SMOGOFF FANS REJOICE WE HIT IT BIG WITH THIS THREAD (edit 24/10/24: are you fucking kidding me)

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...anyways. With Kyurem gone, I think we should wait for whatever happens next. I can definitely see Waterpon and other grasses resurging, along with Weavile and a couple other things that didn't really enjoy Kyurem being here. Teambuilding should also be a lot less constrained now (thank god) thanks to Mr. Freeze-Your-Mons being gone, too. If anything gets more egregious from Kyurem getting the boot, it's probably gonna be Gliscor. But, again, I think we should just wait and let the meta settle a bit more after the two bans we just got.
 
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