Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Eh, outcome is a bit disappointing but I typically avoided running Kyurem on the teams I built so I can't say I will miss it too much. I think Hydrappl / Raging Bolt have better traits as Dragon-types anyways, with Hydrappl having Regenerator and Raging Bolt having priority + CM + Volt Switch, so most teams will adapt to Kyurem's loss just fine by swapping over to one of these two Pokemon. Kyurem mainly just had the MU fishing in its favor with its random greedy sets, which made it very boom-or-bust compared to raging bolt's consistent excellency.

I think Iron Crown might just be knocked out of OU now, since its Kyurem MU was its main selling point and it doesn't really match up well into many Pokemon in A+ rank now. I actually see it dropping to UU with most teams just running GKing + Ting-Lu instead to just to have the infinite longevity with Regen + Spikes. Its still got its advantages like doing well vs Tera Fairy mons, but I think it'll be in a bad spot and likely won't recover unless we see bans of Darkrai / Roaring Moon.

I don't think Ogerpon-W gets better. It will dislike the prevelance of these boots spam teams (which will get more popular) with mons that it has awkward MUs against like Raging Bolt, Hydrappl, and other grasses that may get better after kyu ban. I think Samu + Zap teams get better and while Ogerpon-W does well against this core, it doesn't do amazing against it long-term once Samu starts getting the layers up and pressuring the Oger-W. At least, this is my initial impression when facing Oger with Samu + Zap teams.

I am hoping we don't have any more suspects for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Gliscor suspects after 2 weeks. Gliscor will likely be stronger in a bootspam metagame with its SD sets being easier to fit on more structures.
 
Mr502 said:
And Christ, talking about a Tera Blast suspect? What is this forum smoking today
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*Insert godot's theme*

Personally I do not care about gliscor or Tera blast and they are probably not ban worthy. However recently I saw a YouTube video (forgot who made it) that made me realize that there is something in ou that should be banned. This is going to be a long one so sit back relax and put your bubble pipe in your mouth because today I wish to tell you why I think booster energy should be banned.

For those that somehow do not know booster energy is an item that allows paradox mons to use protosynthesis and quark drive on their first time on the field without sun or electric terrain respectively being active. I used to think this item was ok but as you can tell I have changed my mind.

This item is basically a choice item but without being locked into one move which is what makes it broken in my opinion. This item basically created another speed tier that only paradox pokemon...and deoxys speed inhabit. It also gives Pokémon that can already boost their speed (like gouging fire and roaring moon) an attack or even a defense boost.

However though there are other reasons I think booster energy should be banned I want to discuss what I think should happen if booster energy is banned.

If booster energy is banned I think we should do a sort of soft reset where we bring back every banned paradox that has been banned and quick ban them if they prove to be too much.

As for the other paradoxes I think it is relatively safe to say the only ones I think will remain ou are great tusk iron crown and raging bolt because they do not need booster energy to function. Of the others in ou currently I think only roaring moon and maybe iron moth will be banned from uu. Everything else will probably drop to uu and below.

I am aware that people may not want to ban booster energy because it will bring about too much change and in a way I agree. I do not think we should suspect booster energy right away and we should instead wait a few months before we act on it or any other issue that could be suspected as the kyurem ban will change a lot and the tier should adjust first.

I know this is a hot take but please try to understand where I am coming from and let me know below if you think the same as me or if you have a differing opinion. Anyway byeeeeee
 
Alternator said:
Minus Electro Shot, Arch would be a rain staple, very effectively covering some of the archetype's biggest defensive weaknesses, while benefitting itself from the weather with a 100% accuracy Thunder. Rain teams actually having a solid defensive core would provide a ton of options, and it's not hard to view Arch as 'too good' for how much it offers to the style, but even with its presence, rain teams wouldn't be dominating.
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Do also keep in mind that Archaludon will be present on other team styles, no just Rain. With a Water resist and a 4x Grass resist, it looks like a decent enough Wellspring answer with some neat role compression in Stealth Rocks and as a check to some Fairies
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Do also keep in mind that Archaludon will be present on other team styles, no just Rain. With a Water resist and a 4x Grass resist, it looks like a decent enough Wellspring answer with some neat role compression in Stealth Rocks and as a check to some Fairies
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While true, I was using it as an example to show how a mon can be "too good" on an archetype, but because the archetype as a whole is fine, the mon isn't a problem and doesn't require tiering action.
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Do also keep in mind that Archaludon will be present on other team styles, no just Rain. With a Water resist and a 4x Grass resist, it looks like a decent enough Wellspring answer with some neat role compression in Stealth Rocks and as a check to some Fairies
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Grassy Terrain Archaludon teams would rise in popularity again too.
 
Happy Birthday Finch.

Anyway, I'm glad Kyurem was banned. I have more complex thoughts about the meta, but in general, OU has plenty of wallbreakers. Offense is not going to be a problem this gen. It just isn't. And neither is Gliscor, IMO, because there were plenty of teams without Kyurem that already had ways to deal with Gliscor.

The only other mon I really want to see banned is Roaring Moon. With Kyurem gone, it is the last of the really egregious DD + Tera abusers left in OU. I know a lot of people and top players in particular don't think Moon is broken. That's what they said about Gouging Fire, too. DD + BE + Tera is always going to be a dangerous combination. Moon has less bulk than GF, but more power and speed. It's only a matter of time before people realize it isn't just a Tera Flying mon and start to abuse the heck out of it.

The accelerated setup sweepers in gen 9 is one of the most overcentralizing things about the metagame. So I don't want to see the unbanning of broken setup mons like Volc or Palafin. I don't really need to get into the stupidity of Quiver Dance or Bulk Up + Jet Punch in a Tera metagame, do I? I'm not necesarrily opposed to seeing certain unbans, like Regieleki without TB. But no setup cancer, please.

Even something like Arch, which people pretend is always fine outside of Rain, might not be. Stamina on something that bulky is kinda nuts. Like Mc Squared already pointed out, Power Herb + Meteor Beam isn't that much of a compromise on what it already did to get banned for Rain teams. But even outside of that, Arch can still probably do a lot of the trades that it always did. Grassy Terrain is going to be extremely good for it. Even something like an AV phasing set:

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock Metal Burst
- Dragon Tail

This would be an absolutely obnoxious mon to face. Somebody would run this on a team with Wish Mola and/or Rillaboom. No thank you.
 
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Bold School said:
Happy Birthday Finch.

Anyway, I'm glad Kyurem was banned. I have more complex thoughts about the meta, but in general, OU has plenty of wallbreakers. Offense is not going to be a problem this gen. It just isn't. And neither is Gliscor, IMO, because there were plenty of teams without Kyurem that already had ways to deal with Gliscor.

The only other mon I really want to see banned is Roaring Moon. With Kyurem gone, it is the last of the really egregious DD + Tera abusers left in OU. I know a lot of people and top players in particular don't think Moon is broken. That's what they said about Gouging Fire, too. DD + BE + Tera is always going to be a dangerous combination. Moon has less bulk than GF, but more power and speed. It's only a matter of time before people realize it isn't just a Tera Flying mon and start to abuse the heck out of it.

The accelerated setup sweepers in gen 9 is one of the most overcentralizing things about the metagame. So I don't want to see the unbanning of broken setup mons like Volc or Palafin. I don't really need to get into the stupidity of Quiver Dance or Bulk Up + Jet Punch in a Tera metagame, do I? I'm not necesarrily opposed to seeing certain unbans, like Regieleki without TB. But no setup cancer, please.

Even something like Arch, which people pretend is always fine outside of Rain, might not be. Stamina on something that bulky is kinda nuts. Like Mc Squared already pointed out, Power Herb + Meteor Beam isn't that much of a compromise on what it already did to get banned for Rain teams. But even outside of that, Arch can still probably do a lot of the trades that it always did. Grassy Terrain is going to be extremely good for it. Even something like an AV phasing set:

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail

This would be an absolutely obnoxious mon to face. Somebody would run this on a team with Wish Mola and/or Rillaboom. No thank you.
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av stealth rock?
 
Bold School said:
Happy Birthday Finch.

Anyway, I'm glad Kyurem was banned. I have more complex thoughts about the meta, but in general, OU has plenty of wallbreakers. Offense is not going to be a problem this gen. It just isn't. And neither is Gliscor, IMO, because there were plenty of teams without Kyurem that already had ways to deal with Gliscor.

The only other mon I really want to see banned is Roaring Moon. With Kyurem gone, it is the last of the really egregious DD + Tera abusers left in OU. I know a lot of people and top players in particular don't think Moon is broken. That's what they said about Gouging Fire, too. DD + BE + Tera is always going to be a dangerous combination. Moon has less bulk than GF, but more power and speed. It's only a matter of time before people realize it isn't just a Tera Flying mon and start to abuse the heck out of it.

The accelerated setup sweepers in gen 9 is one of the most overcentralizing things about the metagame. So I don't want to see the unbanning of broken setup mons like Volc or Palafin. I don't really need to get into the stupidity of Quiver Dance or Bulk Up + Jet Punch in a Tera metagame, do I? I'm not necesarrily opposed to seeing certain unbans, like Regieleki without TB. But no setup cancer, please.

Even something like Arch, which people pretend is always fine outside of Rain, might not be. Stamina on something that bulky is kinda nuts. Like Mc Squared already pointed out, Power Herb + Meteor Beam isn't that much of a compromise on what it already did to get banned for Rain teams. But even outside of that, Arch can still probably do a lot of the trades that it always did. Grassy Terrain is going to be extremely good for it. Even something like an AV phasing set:

Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fairy/Poison
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Body Press
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail

This would be an absolutely obnoxious mon to face. Somebody would run this on a team with Wish Mola and/or Rillaboom. No thank you.
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Dragonite is much more problematic than Moon, all of Moon's most popular Tera options have an exploitable weakness and they all die to strong priority. Moon can also be OKOed. Dragonite on the other hand doesn't really even need Tera unless it has to break something super bulky like defensive Great Tusk, it's basically impossible to OKO without either a supereffective multi-hit move (of which there is a short supply) or already being boosted, which basically guarantees the ability to DD on almost anything (much like Gouging Faceplate), and after just a single DD becomes impossible to both out-bulk and out-speed. E-Speed negates both of the most prominent forms of counterplay to setup sweepers, which are priority and speed, namely, something which Moon cannot do.
 
this suspect was very messy but at the end of the day i'm glad to see kyurem go. was getting more and more used to its presence towards the end of the suspect but i think that cutting down on the tier's threat saturation is definitely a step in the right direction. i'm interested in seeing how what's in store for the metagame in the near future (i personally would like to see a gliscor suspect) and i hope that we can keep on pushing this tier in a better direction. happy birthday finch and have a good weekend everyone

oh also i don't think roaring moon is broken tbh. it's scary against fat but it's waaay too reliant on booster energy to break things and struggles against priority users like dragonite, kingambit, raging bolt, etc. lando-T being everywhere is also a massive pain in the ass for it since you always either force a tera (enables gambit/bolt) or get huge chip with u-turn
 
Magcargo said:
Eh, outcome is a bit disappointing but I typically avoided running Kyurem on the teams I built so I can't say I will miss it too much. I think Hydrappl / Raging Bolt have better traits as Dragon-types anyways, with Hydrappl having Regenerator and Raging Bolt having priority + CM + Volt Switch, so most teams will adapt to Kyurem's loss just fine by swapping over to one of these two Pokemon. Kyurem mainly just had the MU fishing in its favor with its random greedy sets, which made it very boom-or-bust compared to raging bolt's consistent excellency.

I think Iron Crown might just be knocked out of OU now, since its Kyurem MU was its main selling point and it doesn't really match up well into many Pokemon in A+ rank now. I actually see it dropping to UU with most teams just running GKing + Ting-Lu instead to just to have the infinite longevity with Regen + Spikes. Its still got its advantages like doing well vs Tera Fairy mons, but I think it'll be in a bad spot and likely won't recover unless we see bans of Darkrai / Roaring Moon.

I don't think Ogerpon-W gets better. It will dislike the prevelance of these boots spam teams (which will get more popular) with mons that it has awkward MUs against like Raging Bolt, Hydrappl, and other grasses that may get better after kyu ban. I think Samu + Zap teams get better and while Ogerpon-W does well against this core, it doesn't do amazing against it long-term once Samu starts getting the layers up and pressuring the Oger-W. At least, this is my initial impression when facing Oger with Samu + Zap teams.

I am hoping we don't have any more suspects for a while, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Gliscor suspects after 2 weeks. Gliscor will likely be stronger in a bootspam metagame with its SD sets being easier to fit on more structures.
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While I agree that Iron Crown loses a big reason to use it with Kyurem's ban, it still checks Glimmora (by preventing it from getting hazards up), Iron Valiant, Hatterene, Deoxys-Speed, Enamorus, Clefable, and Tera Fairy mons as you say, so I can see it still retaining enough usage to stay OU although it'll be more borderline. It also has Psychic Noise to disrupt walls, which is still a valuable tool to have especially with the meta likely becoming fatter.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
av stealth rock?
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You're right. I was rushing and just filled out random moves. I replaced it with Metal Burst for AV specifically, but you get the general idea.
Seraphyde said:
Dragonite is much more problematic than Moon, all of Moon's most popular Tera options have an exploitable weakness and they all die to strong priority. Moon can also be OKOed. Dragonite on the other hand doesn't really even need Tera unless it has to break something super bulky like defensive Great Tusk, it's basically impossible to OKO without either a supereffective multi-hit move (of which there is a short supply) or already being boosted, which basically guarantees the ability to DD on almost anything (much like Gouging Faceplate), and after just a single DD becomes impossible to both out-bulk and out-speed. E-Speed negates both of the most prominent forms of counterplay to setup sweepers, which are priority and speed, namely, something which Moon cannot do.
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First of all, I don't believe Dragonite is problematic. Its main priority has an immunity. So does it's main STAB. (It lacks decent Flying moves besides Rain Hurricane Dragonite.) Either it has to run boots or it fits on less teams. But running boots lowers the power level. And running an item for power further restricts it and makes it more vulnerable to rocks and an RK from something that can survive 1 hit. Furthermore, E-speed isn't a natural STAB. So it cannot use Tera to get double STAB nonsense with it.

Roaring Moon, on the other hand, has Booster Energy to further accelerate the setup sweeping and wallbreaking potential. Both its STABs are usable, but especially Knock Off is crazy. Also, I don't put any stock into its "most popular Tera options" being the extent of its capabilities. I have long been beating the dead horse that folks were severely underestimating other Tera possibilities for Moon. It was the exact same with Gouging Fire. Eventually, people realized that DD + BE + Tera was dumb on at least one OU Dragon.

Finally, I don't think that just RK it with priority is sufficient as counterplay. A lot of things that have been banned can technically be RK'd. Supporting teams are often designed to deal with that possibility. So is Tera. You can't always guarantee that you'll have an appropriate RK'er available if Priority is your only means. Dragonite being able to out priority revenge killers is fine and all, but the trade off is you can only do it with a Normal move. (Aqua Jet isn't threatening on it.) Meanwhile, Roaring Moon has the highest speed tier of any BE mon besides bad Boulder. One DD is all it needs to outrun the entire metagame besides maybe like Rain Barry and Unburden Halwucha. But even then, BE speed + a single DD outspeeds them. RM doesn't need priority to be faster, either. It can use higher BP moves to sweep. Furthermore, Roaring Moon naturally resists a lot of common priority like Grassy Glide, Sucker Punch, and Thunderclap. And then Tera can have it live more. It's not at all a given you can RK it.
 
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I think we should see what rises for a few months and stuff because it is kinda tough to say what ripples a kyurem ban will have. Gliscor may have some adaptations, and something like wogre could come and steal attention away. Who knows?

I think we need to give gliscor some time like we did darkrai because darkrai ended up being nowhere near as overbearing as people found it a month or two ago even with sleep banned.

As for pokemon that may be able to punish this new fast gliscor set, has anyone looked into rockpon? Rockpon really doesn’t fear much at all from gliscor tbh and while it is the worst ogerpon form at the moment, its typing does make for an interesting potential gliscor answer in theory.
 
Happy Birthday Finchinator . Thank you for all your effort running this tier and for always keepin it classy and respectful even when it’s tough.

IMG_5504.jpeg
 
BolTingBlazie said:
As for pokemon that may be able to punish this new fast gliscor set, has anyone looked into rockpon? Rockpon really doesn’t fear much at all from gliscor tbh and while it is the worst ogerpon form at the moment, its typing does make for an interesting potential gliscor answer in theory.
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Ogerpon-Cornerstone is not a Gliscor answer since she's neutral to Ground. You would need Grassy Terrain support for her to not fold to Gliscor.

+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 237-280 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Happy birthday, Finchinator! You must be happy that Kyurem went on your birthday.
 
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SMOGOFF FANS REJOICE WE HIT IT BIG WITH THIS THREAD (edit 24/10/24: are you fucking kidding me)

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...anyways. With Kyurem gone, I think we should wait for whatever happens next. I can definitely see Waterpon and other grasses resurging, along with Weavile and a couple other things that didn't really enjoy Kyurem being here. Teambuilding should also be a lot less constrained now (thank god) thanks to Mr. Freeze-Your-Mons being gone, too. If anything gets more egregious from Kyurem getting the boot, it's probably gonna be Gliscor. But, again, I think we should just wait and let the meta settle a bit more after the two bans we just got.
 
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Seraphyde said:
All I’m saying is, if you consider SS OU to be a “highly skill based metagame”, one of the reasons that it is so, even if you don’t realize it, is because Gl*scor is not present.
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Gliscor has nothing to do with this. It could be in the tier and it would still be a high skill based metagame unless it got voted to get banned. The core reasons for SS OU being seen this way include it having no generational gimmick with Dynamax banned, as well as Hidden Power being removed. Unexpected coverage is a lot harder to pull off in that tier and it's a lot easier to formulate gameplans because at most it's guessing what items the opponent has unrevealed. Gliscor would be very strong in a world with no hidden power ice and no tera blast ice, forcing urshifu/slowbro/weavile to do their best to keep it in check, but it would not be able to tera itself out of a 4x weakness like it does in gen 9. It would also lack Spikes and probably lacks Roost, meaning that it would most likely want to run some combination of Swords Dance + Knock Off + EQ/Facade to threaten Corviknight/Clefable, but no EQ comes at the cost of being walled by Melmetal + Heatran, the latter of which you would probably want Gliscor to act as a counter for.

The lack of gimmick alongside heavy duty boots being used on regenerator mons makes SS OU boring, but it rewards those that play consistently well over the duration of each game. You have to carefully plan out turns because it's easy to lose progress off of regenerator letting torn/slowbro/pex go from early KO'd to back to full, or easy to play passively and have the opponent set up a Future Sight + Teleport combo into you being forced to lose a mon.

Personally I call it the "no nonsense" tier and like it for that reason, and more people are liking SS OU for that reason after experiencing the chaos Gen 9 brought. This post was a bit off topic and theorymons a bit, but I wanted to reply to that.
 
TPP said:
It would also lack Spikes and probably lacks Roost
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do we know this, though? spikes was tr23 last gen. there's no way to know for sure whether game freak would have given them to our theoretical gen 8 gliscor or not, although it did learn it in legends arceus. and it would also still have roost because transfer moves were intact in gen 8. although i do agree with your main point that gliscor would be fine in 8, largely because, well, it can't tera and weavile is one of the best mons in the tier, and that 8 is one of the most skill-based gens because we don't have to deal with wacky zany generational gimmicks™ like tera or z-moves
 
Avira said:
Ogerpon-Cornerstone is not a Gliscor answer since she's neutral to Ground. You would need Grassy Terrain support for her to not fold to Gliscor.

+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ogerpon-Cornerstone: 237-280 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Not exactly. First of all, you resist Facade which is kind of a big deal. You also have Sturdy so you could live any hit. That along side a faster speed tier can have you win it. You can also predict the Protect to SD up and/or Encore after the Protect or SD. It's not a bad matchup depending on circumstances.
 
Bold School said:
Not exactly. First of all, you resist Facade which is kind of a big deal. You also have Sturdy so you could live any hit. That along side a faster speed tier can have you win it. You can also predict the Protect to SD up and/or Encore after the Protect or SD. It's not a bad matchup depending on circumstances.
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I guess that is true. You can outplay it with Encore, but it's still not a good long-term check since Gliscor can just predict Rockpon coming in and use Earthquake to chip it. Rockpon is easily chipped by hazards and doesn't have Gliscor's staying power.
 
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