Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Seraphyde said:
I think people are exaggerating how healthy Great Tusk is for the metagame. After only a single Rapid Spin it has the potential to become unstoppable due to its natural bulk that allows it to survive even SE special attacks in tandem with its monstrous attack stat that often means setup isn't even required (unless you count Rapid Spin as setup). It has the coverage options to easily beat ALL spinblockers (yes even FRAUDcha) and is a pain in the ass to stop from spinning as after spinblocking you basically have only a single turn before the enemy clicks a much stronger attack. In order to reliably beat it you need a robust physical wall, usually a Rooster, or something that outspeeds even after a boost and can hit it SE, or SE priority (which is really only Aqua Jet because nobody uses Weavile anymore), OR you just hit it hard, accept that a mon will die, and THEN nuke it with priority, and of course, you can also just have the right Tera. None of that is particularly hard to do or to fit on a team, but if you don't have at least one of those things at the ready when the elephant is about to spin or has already spun, it's basically guaranteed that Tusk is going to flatten what remains of your team. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that people need to stop hailing it as some paragon of a healthy metagame. All that being said, I'd still take dealing with the Proboscidean Entity over Fenris Wolf (thanks Raikou Fan) any day of the week.
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I can't lie now this is starting to piss me off. Great Tusk may be an amazing Pokémon but not only do pokemon like sinistcha and ogerpon w exist to beat the crap out of it but great Tusk isn't even that strong even with proto boost. It is basically the gold standard of a utility pokemon that can provide offensive support. It is nowhere near unhealthy banworthy and it even helps the metagame. It is number 1 in usage for a reason. I could maybe believe that alomomola is a little unhealthy but this is completely insane.
 
UltraSword said:
I can't lie now this is starting to piss me off. Great Tusk may be an amazing Pokémon but not only do pokemon like sinistcha and ogerpon w exist to beat the crap out of it but great Tusk isn't even that strong even with proto boost. It is basically the gold standard of a utility pokemon that can provide offensive support. It is nowhere near unhealthy banworthy and it even helps the metagame. It is number 1 in usage for a reason. I could maybe believe that alomomola is a little unhealthy but this is completely insane.
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Seraphyde when anything is even remotely defensive and bulky: /lh

Tusk is completely fine, literally the healthiest top tier in an OU metagame since like. Uhhh. Ttar in gen 3 probably? I genuinely can't name a single top 3 mon that's as healthy as tusk because it's so rare for a Pokémon to be bulky but not stally, offensive but rarely sweeping, and having great support options while not being broken in a supporting role.
 
pyuk said:
I think it would be worth noting that gen 9 has more Pokémon capable of using multiple different Choice items effectively.
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This is my point lmao, gen 9 has more Pokémon capable of using choice items.

Edit: whoops I made this a separate post, pretend it's the same one. Sorry!
 
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At what point do we just stop engaging with these posts for pages at a time when a lot of the responses will likely take the same angle, whether the post is sincere-and-misinformed or ragebait (I usually assume the former but that is a significantly more exhausting angle)?

Though since it was mentioned briefly, I'd be curious about something: Has anyone considered Substitute Sinistcha? I know its moveslots are a bit tight, but with the multitude of Pokemon it can sit on easily like Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor (in terms of damage), and Zamazenta, getting a Sub up gives it room to be annoying to potential Switch-ins (Burn/Strength Sap on stuff like Kingambit) or even fight things with a lot less caution/timer (Garg can't break a Sub so no fear of Salt Cure, Utility Gliscor can't Toxic it). The tricky part is obviously where to fit it since STABs and Strength Sap are hard to drop, which means it's competing with Calm Mind most immediately unless you potentially compromise its usual match-ups.
 
pika pal said:
At what point do we just stop engaging with these posts for pages at a time when a lot of the responses will likely take the same angle, whether the post is sincere-and-misinformed or ragebait (I usually assume the former but that is a significantly more exhausting angle)?

Though since it was mentioned briefly, I'd be curious about something: Has anyone considered Substitute Sinistcha? I know its moveslots are a bit tight, but with the multitude of Pokemon it can sit on easily like Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor (in terms of damage), and Zamazenta, getting a Sub up gives it room to be annoying to potential Switch-ins (Burn/Strength Sap on stuff like Kingambit) or even fight things with a lot less caution/timer (Garg can't break a Sub so no fear of Salt Cure, Utility Gliscor can't Toxic it). The tricky part is obviously where to fit it since STABs and Strength Sap are hard to drop, which means it's competing with Calm Mind most immediately unless you potentially compromise its usual match-ups.
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Unfortunately as long as seraphyde stays in this thread I am bound for eternity.

The issue with sub sinistcha is that a lot of things deal more than 25% to the sub and require either Calm minds (which you drop) or multiple wasted turns of strength sap to have the opponent deal under that amount. So the sub is basically just a turn you could've spent attacking the switch for the same gain of one attack.
 
pika pal said:
Though since it was mentioned briefly, I'd be curious about something: Has anyone considered Substitute Sinistcha? I know its moveslots are a bit tight, but with the multitude of Pokemon it can sit on easily like Tusk, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor (in terms of damage), and Zamazenta, getting a Sub up gives it room to be annoying to potential Switch-ins (Burn/Strength Sap on stuff like Kingambit) or even fight things with a lot less caution/timer (Garg can't break a Sub so no fear of Salt Cure, Utility Gliscor can't Toxic it). The tricky part is obviously where to fit it since STABs and Strength Sap are hard to drop, which means it's competing with Calm Mind most immediately unless you potentially compromise its usual match-ups.
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Gets shat on by Dragapult, if it doesn’t KO then you can easily paralyze to pave the way for para fishing by something stronger in order to break the sub. Due to its low speed, setup is also difficult, if your enemy’s breaker is in position, you can’t click sub until it’s dead or force out. And if you get statused BEFORE subbing, then that’s just cruel. Special nukes like GOATrai and MB Glim (or Life Orb Glim) also enjoy pissing in the matcha bowl.
RainebowValiant said:
The issue with sub sinistcha is that a lot of things deal more than 25% to the sub and require either Calm minds (which you drop) or multiple wasted turns of strength sap to have the opponent deal under that amount. So the sub is basically just a turn you could've spent attacking the switch for the same gain of one attack.
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And that. Also that.
 
Seraphyde said:
I think people are exaggerating how healthy Great Tusk is for the metagame. After only a single Rapid Spin it has the potential to become unstoppable due to its natural bulk that allows it to survive even SE special attacks in tandem with its monstrous attack stat that often means setup isn't even required (unless you count Rapid Spin as setup). It has the coverage options to easily beat ALL spinblockers (yes even FRAUDcha) and is a pain in the ass to stop from spinning as after spinblocking you basically have only a single turn before the enemy clicks a much stronger attack. In order to reliably beat it you need a robust physical wall, usually a Rooster, or something that outspeeds even after a boost and can hit it SE, or SE priority (which is really only Aqua Jet because nobody uses Weavile anymore), OR you just hit it hard, accept that a mon will die, and THEN nuke it with priority, and of course, you can also just have the right Tera. None of that is particularly hard to do or to fit on a team, but if you don't have at least one of those things at the ready when the elephant is about to spin or has already spun, it's basically guaranteed that Tusk is going to flatten what remains of your team. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think that people need to stop hailing it as some paragon of a healthy metagame. All that being said, I'd still take dealing with the Proboscidean Entity over Fenris Wolf (thanks Raikou Fan) any day of the week.
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i refuse to believe you're a real person
 
while y'all hating i'm having fun with dudunsparce.

1730909965233.png
@ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Roost

This lil guy is just bulky enough to live about any hit and glare or boomburst back whatever is sitting in front. It can be deceptively annoying to remove for teams who lack hard counters and is pretty effective at trading with or crippling breakers. It also plays well into the omnipresent gking, which can't sit on it because of serene grace shadow ball's heightened drop chance. I genuinely think this mon is quite underexplored and I've been having decent success with it (granted, not at super top elo, I don't really ladder seriously lately) around the 1700s range with a pretty unique team to boot. Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236020576-n7ojk0yafwptwssrxl6fp8900grfsfjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2238616370-75qqvqh5uv48l3er6bxd3d3294dm4zopw

I could send more but I'm not making a vr nom here, just saying this guy deserves more recognition. It has really good bulk and a serviceable movepool, and is probably the most viable mon with access to glare rn (serp sucks, don't @ me).
 
Delibird Heart said:
while y'all hating i'm having fun with dudunsparce.

View attachment 685451 @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Roost

This lil guy is just bulky enough to live about any hit and glare or boomburst back whatever is sitting in front. It can be deceptively annoying to remove for teams who lack hard counters and is pretty effective at trading with or crippling breakers. It also plays well into the omnipresent gking, which can't sit on it because of serene grace shadow ball's heightened drop chance. I genuinely think this mon is quite underexplored and I've been having decent success with it (granted, not at super top elo, I don't really ladder seriously lately) around the 1700s range with a pretty unique team to boot. Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236020576-n7ojk0yafwptwssrxl6fp8900grfsfjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2238616370-75qqvqh5uv48l3er6bxd3d3294dm4zopw

I could send more but I'm not making a vr nom here, just saying this guy deserves more recognition. It has really good bulk and a serviceable movepool, and is probably the most viable mon with access to glare rn (serp sucks, don't @ me).
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Dudunsparce is NOT better than serp. Serp is solid on webs, it's a disruption mon, staple on para spam. Say dudunsparce is good all you want (perhaps it has some vague uses!) but serp is MUCH better
 
Delibird Heart said:
while y'all hating i'm having fun with dudunsparce.

View attachment 685451 @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 228 HP / 252 SpA / 28 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Roost

This lil guy is just bulky enough to live about any hit and glare or boomburst back whatever is sitting in front. It can be deceptively annoying to remove for teams who lack hard counters and is pretty effective at trading with or crippling breakers. It also plays well into the omnipresent gking, which can't sit on it because of serene grace shadow ball's heightened drop chance. I genuinely think this mon is quite underexplored and I've been having decent success with it (granted, not at super top elo, I don't really ladder seriously lately) around the 1700s range with a pretty unique team to boot. Here are some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2236020576-n7ojk0yafwptwssrxl6fp8900grfsfjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2238616370-75qqvqh5uv48l3er6bxd3d3294dm4zopw

I could send more but I'm not making a vr nom here, just saying this guy deserves more recognition. It has really good bulk and a serviceable movepool, and is probably the most viable mon with access to glare rn (serp sucks, don't @ me).
Click to expand...
as the number 1 dudunsparce fan (brought it and won to uuwc, uult playoffs and won like 30 bucks with it) change serene to rattled and glare to calm mind hope this helps
 
UltraSword said:
I have a 6th suggestion.

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 812-956 (152 - 179%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This tells you all you need to know.
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Cyber-DJ said:
How about another suggestion?

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 638-752 (119.4 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Cyber-DJ said:
Fair critiscm. Then let's lower the power level for discussion sake:

252+ SpA Hydrapple Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 474-558 (88.7 - 104.4%) -- damage roll
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 548-648 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 594-698 (111.2 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 390-458 (73 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 571-673 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 494-585 (92.5 - 109.5%) -- damage roll
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now calc these with the superior 0 HP/252 Spdef Mola. For the Kyu and Bolt, AV doesn’t get OHKOed.
 
Very low engagement for the Gliscor suspect. Will it pick up during the weekend, or is this a sign that the changes aren’t working? Also could easily be the case that people are burnt on Gen9 OU.
 
June Heat said:
Very low engagement for the Gliscor suspect. Will it pick up during the weekend, or is this a sign that the changes aren’t working? Also could easily be the case that people are burnt on Gen9 OU.
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We actually have a good amount of peopl with reqs already relative to norms -- I think low discussion due to people adjusting to the new threads overlapping with the US election and Gliscor not evoking as dramatic a response as splashy offensive Pokemon.
 
Finchinator said:
We actually have a good amount of peopl with reqs already relative to norms -- I think low discussion due to people adjusting to the new threads overlapping with the US election and Gliscor not evoking as dramatic a response as splashy offensive Pokemon.
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Which politician is Gliscor? He's most like RFK imo. Also yeah it's 100% the election.

Dead by Daylight said:
AV makes you mediocre at best into hazard stack and even teams just getting rocks up digs into your longevity in a major way.
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Do not diss AV mola, that set is insane. Owns Gholdengo and even Energy Ball Iron Moth wayyy more than you think.
 
Working on a rain team and right now it loses pretty hard to waterpon. Any ideas? I'd like something offensive outside of gambit/dnite that can actually take a hit from him.

here's the paste

do not judge the quick claw kingambit. he stays. all other contribs to the team are fair game tho.
 
RainWaiv said:
Working on a rain team and right now it loses pretty hard to waterpon. Any ideas? I'd like something offensive outside of gambit/dnite that can actually take a hit from him.

here's the paste

do not judge the quick claw kingambit. he stays. all other contribs to the team are fair game tho.
Click to expand...

There really aren't a lot of options for offensive mons that can take a hit from Ogerpon-Wellspring in rain. You could try Sinistcha, although that drops hard to +2 Knock Off if Knock Off is her 4th move. You could also try Rillaboom with some bulk investment at the cost of speed.
 
Avira said:
There really aren't a lot of options for offensive mons that can take a hit from Ogerpon-Wellspring in rain. You could try Sinistcha, although that drops hard to +2 Knock Off if Knock Off is her 4th move. You could also try Rillaboom with some bulk investment at the cost of speed.
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thanks. i'll look into both but so far rillaboom is the more enticing option just based on my playstyle+the rest of the team.
 
RainWaiv said:
Working on a rain team and right now it loses pretty hard to waterpon. Any ideas? I'd like something offensive outside of gambit/dnite that can actually take a hit from him.

here's the paste

do not judge the quick claw kingambit. he stays. all other contribs to the team are fair game tho.
Click to expand...
physdef Hoodra? like Draco, Thunder, two more moves (could go eq/knock or flash cannon or whatever)
 
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