Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Achohermano]

Heatran shuts down (kinda) non TWave / non Specs Shadow Ball / non CB Ghost Tera / non (While it’s rare) Water coverage Pult and it sits aganist some Val sets while yeah checking Ghold and teraless Moth

However, it gets owned by Waterpon, Tusk, Gliscor, Lando, Scorching Sand Moltres, Ting Lu… It’s also extremely susceptible to hazards and Knock Off and if you’re running Flash Fire (you kinda need it for Moth) they will Knock off aganist you.
It can’t also really switch into special attackers; Primarina, Darkrai, Enamorus… They have coverage
Neither into walls like Corv or Skarm, since they will chip it heavily.
Asides from Glowking landing MS on its switch in, you also cannot trap anything relevant. Alo can pivot, Pex and Bliss are irrelevant rn, Clod can win 1v1 with EQ…

Idk, seems like a really, really bad mon imo

 

[Magcargo]

Why doesn’t heatran see more usage? Shuts down dragapult, non ep kyu, iron moth, ghold, and protect with leftovers makes it an invaluable scout and specially defensive wall.

Heatran is still very difficult to switch into outside of Alomomola / Garg / Gliscor, as every other switch in is crippled by Will-O-Wisp, still hates the residual chip from Magma Storm, etc. IMO it does well enough vs some key threats like Gholdengo and Darkrai to have some merits. That said, its also got big 4MSS, too many Pokemon are running Ground-moves these days, and in general, its just easier to run Moltres given its higher value vs the average Ground-types that players are running. I think Volcanion also gives Heatran a run for its money since its a lot better against Alomomola, which Heatran will almost never make progress against.

TBH, I'm of the opinion that a lot of Pokemon that have "fallen off" like Garchomp and Heatran are still pretty good, just that generation 9 teambuilding constraints make them a bit harder to fit onto the average team. Heatran in general just hates the Pokemon that are popular like Ting-Lu, Gliscor, and Samurott-H, and answers to Ground-types in the metagame are still a bit limited IMO, so it does not enjoy the crippling 4x weakness to their attacks. This is why I feel Moltres is a lot more common - it performs much better vs the Ground-types and has U-Turn for momentum against other bad match-ups like Garganacl or Ting-Lu. Heatran also doesn't enjoy having Shaky MUs vs many of the special threats like Raging Bolt, Iron Valiant, or Kyurem. Still, a well supported Heatran can still be the big threat it was back in Gen 7 and 8. Its still amazing vs bulkier styles, and when supported by other auxillary field effects like Sun or G-Terrain, it can still perform quite well imo.

Speaking of Garchomp, I also still feel this Pokemon is being slept on rn and will make a massive comeback soon. It can perform the same role as a "Gking / Ghold punisher" that Samurott-H can perform, but IMO is much stronger offensively given its amazing speed tier, and performs much better vs many of Gking's common partners like Moltres or Zapdos thanks to Stone Edge. Garchomp's better speed tier and powerful Ground STAB can make it more difficult to respond too, espicially given that it performs quite well against many of the common Ground-type answers like Moltres, Zapdos, and Alomomola. I have been running Swords Dance Soft Sand lately and many teams just don't have switch-ins to this set, as it sets up SD against Gholdengo / Gking and starts cooking with its boosted EQs, which have a good chance of dropping even Great Tusk, Alomomola, and more with a bit of chip. I think this Pokemon pairs fantastically with a lot of Pokemon like Great Tusk / Landorus-T to weaken their checks like the birds, Raging Bolt to soften up that Pokemon's checks, Gholdengo due to the fantastic defensive synergy, Iron Valiant to help punish Gking / Gholdengo, and more.

Garchomp Calcs

+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 310-366 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 322-381 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Raging Bolt: 423-498 (108.1 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 214-253 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Tera Fairy Gholdengo: 306-361 (80.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 350-414 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 429-505 (109.7 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tera Fairy Gholdengo Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 254-300 (71.1 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 163-193 (45.6 - 54%) -- 48% chance to 2HKO

I think the standard SD set has more room for creativity beyond Loaded Dice Scale Shot, as other items like Soft Sand help it reach some nice KO benchmarks, other moves like Stone Edge give it better MUs into the birds, and it even has some soft utility options with either Stealth Rock or Spikes. Its also able to run a bunch of different variants of Tera Blast to hit some key Pokemon like Zapdos, Moltres, Gliscor, or Corviknight. Other sets like chainchomp are still as scary as ever, with limited switch-ins, and Tankchomp can be a nice hazard spammer with the utility of punishing the many common contact moves like Kingambit's Kowtow Cleave or Dondozo's waterfall.

 

[tigers jaw]

coming back from the dead to repeat myself for the nth time

stop trying to get a terablast ban to happen. it’s a non-starter & totally incoherent. issues with it only arise when it’s on specific sets used by specific pokemon (volc, eleki, espa, etc.) - all of which have other attributes at play, only one of which being their synergy with terablast, that make them overwhelming.

advocating for a terablast ban on the grounds that it would free volcarona or whatever is unironically identical to suggesting speed boost should be banned in previous gens 4/5/6 to free blaziken, even though it’s blaziken & not speed boost that is broken in this scenario. it is flat-out absurd tiering.

 

[JackRG]

Why doesn’t heatran see more usage? Shuts down dragapult, non ep kyu, iron moth, ghold, and protect with leftovers makes it an invaluable scout and specially defensive wall.

one of the biggest victims of gen 9 moveset cuts and grounds are at a all time high in gen 9 imo. Toxic was one of its best moves cuz steels and poisons don't wanna come anywhere near it and it allowed it to get past bulky waters (which it now struggles to break past). Also HO is way more broken then in gen 9 then in previous gens, which tran also struggles aganist.

 

[Seraphyde]

coming back from the dead to repeat myself for the nth time

stop trying to get a terablast ban to happen. it’s a non-starter & totally incoherent. issues with it only arise when it’s on specific sets used by specific pokemon (volc, eleki, espa, etc.) - all of which have other attributes at play, only one of which being their synergy with terablast, that make them overwhelming.

advocating for a terablast ban on the grounds that it would free volcarona or whatever is unironically identical to suggesting speed boost should be banned in previous gens 4/5/6 to free blaziken, even though it’s blaziken & not speed boost that is broken in this scenario. it is flat-out absurd tiering.

There’s more reasons to ban Tera Blast than just dropping UUbers back to OU yet you are pretending as if this is the only argument that is being made for it

Why doesn’t heatran see more usage? Shuts down dragapult, non ep kyu, iron moth, ghold, and protect with leftovers makes it an invaluable scout and specially defensive wall.

Twave Hexpult has a reliable chance of muscling through it provided that you get a full para turn or Heatran is chipped/took hazard damage

 

[UltraSword]

unironically identical to suggesting speed boost should be banned in previous gens 4/5/6 to free blaziken, even though it’s blaziken & not speed boost that is broken in this scenario.

Dude blaziken was uu in Gen 4 and it did not recieve many buffs besides speed boost in Gen 5. Wth do you mean speed boost wasn't broken. If you meant that speed boost isn't broken in general then that is fair and I retract this statement.

Speaking of Garchomp, I also still feel this Pokemon is being slept on rn and will make a massive comeback soon.

Kyurem, weavile, darkrai, and every pokemon that has an ice move/fairy move in a faster speed tier:

But seriously though garchomp isn't bad I doubt it will reach ou status this gen. This tier is very hostile to it with plenty of threats that hit it super effectively that are either faster than it or can take a hit. Iron valiant is even faster than garchomp at plus one speed. Tera does exist and that can improve garchomp's survivability but like most other pokemon in the tier it can be played around (especially tera fire which is one of the most common ones). It can utilize its defensive traits with its tankchomp set but that feels very fake due to garchomp just not having enough survivability most of the time to be a spikes setter unlike say ting lu. Garchomp does have advantages over other pokemon in the tier (like being a faster scale shot user than kyurem) but I personally don't think we will see garchomp in ou again unless it learns dragon dance in Gen 10 (please gamefreak I beg you I know you want to)

 

[UltraSword]

You should have just stayed dead tbh

Also wtf I get this was probably a joke but still really?

 

[tigers jaw]

You should have just stayed dead tbh

There’s more reasons to ban Tera Blast than just dropping UUbers back to OU yet you are pretending as if this is the only argument that is being made for it

Twave Hexpult has a reliable chance of muscling through it provided that you get a full para turn or Heatran is chipped/took hazard damage

i was specifically adressing the recent discussion in which a user was advocating banning terablast specifically to bring back volc.

there are no (valid) arguments in favour of banning terablast. sorry to break it to you, but that isn’t how tiering is done. any argument you might propose is actually just an argument in favour of banning/keeping banned pokemon that are egregious in their use of terablast, alongside the rest of their arsenal & attributes. kinda hard to say something is itself broken when only like 5 pokemon are fucked up with it. i literally said this already, but you chose to ignore in favour of a dogshit strawman & weird attack. lol.

UltraSword ye sorry it was its hidden ability. my brain is fried. comparison is still apt tho.

 

[JackRG]

i was specifically adressing the recent discussion in which a user was advocating banning terablast specifically to bring back volc.

there are no (valid) arguments in favour of banning terablast. sorry to break it to you, but that isn’t how tiering is done. any argument you might propose is actually just an argument in favour of banning/keeping banned pokemon that are egregious in their use of terablast, alongside the rest of their arsenal & attributes. kinda hard to say something is itself broken when only like 5 pokemon are fucked up with it. i literally said this already, but you chose to ignore in favour of a dogshit strawman & weird attack. lol.

UltraSword ye sorry it was its hidden ability. my brain is fried. comparison is still apt tho.

I don't think you realize just how many pokemon can viably run tera blast. Iron moth, kingambit, dragapult, lando-t, dragonite, ival, kyurem, roaring moon, enam, rillaboom, excadrill, serperior, volcanion, blaziken, lilligant-h, are all viable ou pokemon that can run tera blast, and that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure I forgot plenty good users of the move. Not to mention its more uncompetitive matchup fishing in a tier that certainly doesn't need any more of that. Besides, banning moves isn't a new concept, just this gen we've already had shed tail and last respects banned (the ladder even got banned from ubers!). How is this any different?

 

[Avira]

Besides, banning moves isn't a new concept, just this gen we've already had shed tail and last respects banned (the ladder even got banned from ubers!). How is this any different?

Shed Tail and Last Respects were commonly agreed to be broken on all fully evolved OU-viable mons that were available, and that's why they were banned. That is why Tera Blast is not a great comparison to Shed Tail and Last Respects, the latter of which was so crazy it was even banned from Ubers.

 

[JackRG]

Shed Tail and Last Respects were commonly agreed to be broken on all fully evolved OU-viable mons that were available, and that's why they were banned. That is why Tera Blast is not a great comparison to Shed Tail and Last Respects, the latter of which was so crazy it was even banned from Ubers.

yeah of course, those two were absurd lmao. The point I aimed to make there was that banning moves in particular isn't a new concept and doesn't go against any tiering policies.

 

[Insolence]

i was specifically adressing the recent discussion in which a user was advocating banning terablast specifically to bring back volc.

there are no (valid) arguments in favour of banning terablast. sorry to break it to you, but that isn’t how tiering is done. any argument you might propose is actually just an argument in favour of banning/keeping banned pokemon that are egregious in their use of terablast, alongside the rest of their arsenal & attributes. kinda hard to say something is itself broken when only like 5 pokemon are fucked up with it. i literally said this already, but you chose to ignore in favour of a dogshit strawman & weird attack. lol.

I don't think anyone is arguing to ban Tera Blast specifically to bring back Volc. It's independently a pretty polarizing element of the tier that facilitates all the worst aspects of Tera (matchup fishing, cheese, and surprise factor). People keep bringing it up with regards to Volc because this thread periodically cycles back to dropping Ubers every other week and it's natural to point out that the easiest drops would be the ones that were almost entirely broken by the coverage provided by a single move.

ausma made a good post about Tera Blast a while ago (the rest of the thread is worth reading too, there's a lot of good arguments there). In the months since then we're seeing more and more mons use the move with a much larger range of viable tera types. Look at something like 'Nite - from the time of the post to now the usage of Tera Blast on Nite has almost DOUBLED. Kyurem? 12% to almost 22%. LandoT? 3% to 14%. Thundy-T? 27% to 59%. I could keep quoting stats but you get the picture.

Players have been getting better at building with the move and exploiting it to flip matchups and convert wins, with it even seeing plenty of usage in tours. I'd want it banned even if Volc and Eleki wouldn't return, it's by far the most frustrating element in the tier at the moment.

 

[ausma]

there are no (valid) arguments in favour of banning terablast.

This is just blatantly wrong.

While we can agree to disagree about its impact on the tier and the dynamic it possesses against reactive counterplay, banning Tera Blast is nowhere near comparable to complex banning Speed Boost on Blaziken or anything adjacent. It is a straight forward tierable element, and not complex by any means. It’s attached to Tera, but Tera Blast is an independent move. It more closely aligns with banning a move like Last Respects or Shed Tail, which are bans that have very similar justifications. Tera Blast is obviously nowhere near their power level, but this is mostly just to illustrate that tiering moves is very much a thing that has happened and can happen again.

Tiering precedent aside, there is a reason it has gained so much traction in the past few months, and undermining those reasons by calling them invalid adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[Magcargo]

Been using Rotom-W lately. Hate to admit it, but this mon might have some more value than I initially thought.

Being effectively immune to hazards is such a god sent in this metagame, and it makes Rotom-W a prime user of the Rocky Helmet item since it can effectively run the item over boots. Makes it a good punisher for many of the commonly spammed contact moves from Pokemon like Great Tusk, Dondozo, Samurott-H, etc. With how tough Ground-types can be to deal with in the metagame, Rotom-W's defensive profile winds up being pretty invaluable since it does amazingly against common mons like Great Tusk (lacking CC), Iron Treads, Lando-T, and Ting-Lu, and can effectively punish them with Wisp. Tera Steel's defensive profile is also just too good against many of the common Pokemon like Dragonite, Ogerpon-W, Kyurem, etc, letting Rotom-W get a critical status off on these guys, additional helmet chip, or pivot out into a more advantageous MU. Pain Split having 32 PP compared to other recovery options is also nice & lets it function great in longer games alongside the hazard immunity. Hitting many of the Tera Fire Pokemon like Kingambit with Hydro Pump is also nice utility that it has over some of its competitors. Pairs beautifully with Hex Gholdengo, which really loves Rotom-W's ability to spread Wisp vs grounds, defensive utility vs fire and ground-types, and pivoting capabilities.

My one snag with Rotom-W is that its Gliscor MU is horrendous. Hydro Pump easily gets PP stalled out by protect + switching into resists. Its bulk can also feel a bit lacking. Opposing Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Gking can also be tricky to make progress against, but eh, we've got punishers for those Pokemon. Lastly, Rotom-W's stat spread certainly feels very powercrept given that it can struggle massively against Pokemon you'd want it to check like Walking Wake. Think there is a fair bit of competition with Samurott-H as well, but Rotom-W has some of its own advantages like Hazard Immunity + some longevity.

 

[UltraSword]

My one snag with Rotom-W is that its Gliscor MU is horrendous. Hydro Pump easily gets PP stalled out by protect + switching into resists. Its bulk can also feel a bit lacking. Opposing Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Gking can also be tricky to make progress against, but eh, we've got punishers for those Pokemon. Lastly, Rotom-W's stat spread certainly feels very powercrept given that it can struggle massively against Pokemon you'd want it to check like Walking Wake. Think there is a fair bit of competition with Samurott-H as well, but Rotom-W has some of its own advantages like Hazard Immunity + some longevity.

You can do trick scarf just like the old days in dpp ou. In fact you can even use the toxic orb to sabotage other pokemon on the opponent's team

 

[Stories]

Hi I rarely post here (or even look in here) for my own sanity but I really wanted to share something I thought was cool.

I made a semi-stall (bulky balance?) team that originally started around Lokix + AV Alomomola but ended up switching to Wish Mola with a bunch of fat fucks. This team features two pretty niche hazard removers, Weezing-Galar isn't that unique anymore but Cyclizar has been actually pretty nice for a double hazard removal core.

Cyclizar @ Assault Vest Ability: Regenerator Tera Type: Fairy EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe Jolly Nature - Knock Off - Rapid Spin - U-turn - Temper Flare

With Assault Vest it can pivot into a decent amount of things and actually annoy Gholdengo switching in to spinblock, even getting a boosted Temper Flare if Rapid Spin fails. Even with terrible bulk, your speed and typing let you soft check a decent amount of things while removing hazards for Kyurem to come in and do Kyurem things. Ogerpon-W, Darkrai, Iron Moth, Zapdos, etc.. are all potential entry points for Cyclizar to at least get U-turn chip or a Rapid Spin off.

I got reqs with this team pretty easily, only really struggling with Fairy-types like Iron Valiant and Enamorus due to the stacked weaknesses.

Anyway I really enjoy this meta, I don't think anything needs to be banned besides maybe Ogerpon-W. Okay that's all, have a good day everyone

 

[MC Squared]

Shed Tail and Last Respects were commonly agreed to be broken on all fully evolved OU-viable mons that were available, and that's why they were banned. That is why Tera Blast is not a great comparison to Shed Tail and Last Respects, the latter of which was so crazy it was even banned from Ubers.

Wonder if anyone tested Sceptile in a custom ladder where Shed Tail isn't banned. National Dex isn't a good example because I don't think the move is even viable there

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Guarantee he doesn't even respond to these points and will if anything just pivot back on well ummm uh a user was saying it just bc they want volcarona back!

I'd like to not perpetuate the hostility that you decided to randomly create, so here goes:

1a. Tera Blast comes with significant opportunity cost
Terastallization as a mechanic is extremely powerful, and using it for the sake of powering up your Tera Blast user to beat, likely, one or two specific checks, or in the case of something like Dragonite, gift it a STAB move it never had. While this can definitely be useful to blow past a check, it also comes with a massive cost of not being able to harness that unpredictability later.

1b. There really aren't many users of Tera Blast that don't lose out on anything using it

I don't think you realize just how many pokemon can viably run tera blast. Iron moth, kingambit, dragapult, lando-t, dragonite, ival, kyurem, roaring moon, enam, rillaboom, excadrill, serperior, volcanion, blaziken, lilligant-h, are all viable ou pokemon that can run tera blast, and that's just off the top of my head

Iron Moth uses Tera Blast regularly and doesn't drop it, no qualms there. Kingambit has to drop either Iron Head, Low Kick, or Sucker Punch if it wants to fit Tera Blast Fairy. The only Dragapult set that uses Tera Blast is Choice Band (a good set for sure, but one with some hassle involved from experience). Similarly, the only sets that Landorus-T and Dragonite run Tera Blast on are Choice Scarf (which gives up quite a significant bit of defensive utility) and fairly niche CB Tera Blast Flying sets which aren't the norm. I, myself, have never seen a Valiant or Roaring Moon running Tera Blast, and I don't think they would run it at all. DD Kyurem runs Tera Blast, but other sets don't. Enam runs Tera Stellar Tera Blast, so a bit of a special case. Rilla's CB dex set does not mention Tera Blast at all, although Swords Dance can definitely run it. Similarly, Sand Sweeper Exca doesn't run it, which is its only dex set. Serp is in the same boat as Iron Moth. Volcanion - sure? Only on its Specs sets though, which aren't the trend right now as far as I know. Nobody really uses Blaziken anymore, but for what it's worth Tera Blast is not listed on its dex set. Lilli-H runs it - again, sure? Still a B- mon.

So we've got:
(B+ and below italicized)
Reliable users that don't drop anything: Iron Moth, Enamorus, Serperior, Lilligant-H
Users that have to run another set to utilize it: Dragapult (Choice Band), Lando-T (Choice Scarf), Dragonite (Choice Band), Kyurem (Dragon Dance), Rillaboom (Swords Dance)
Listed things that don't utilize it: Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Excadrill, Blaziken

Overall, I'd say Tera Blast does require a high level of gamesense and skill to use and is limited to quite a few users to maximize its potential.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

I'd like to not perpetuate the hostility that you decided to randomly create, so here goes:

1a. Tera Blast comes with significant opportunity cost
Terastallization as a mechanic is extremely powerful, and using it for the sake of powering up your Tera Blast user to beat, likely, one or two specific checks, or in the case of something like Dragonite, gift it a STAB move it never had. While this can definitely be useful to blow past a check, it also comes with a massive cost of not being able to harness that unpredictability later.

1b. There really aren't many users of Tera Blast that don't lose out on anything using it

Iron Moth uses Tera Blast regularly and doesn't drop it, no qualms there. Kingambit has to drop either Iron Head, Low Kick, or Sucker Punch if it wants to fit Tera Blast Fairy. The only Dragapult set that uses Tera Blast is Choice Band (a good set for sure, but one with some hassle involved from experience). Similarly, the only sets that Landorus-T and Dragonite run Tera Blast on are Choice Scarf (which gives up quite a significant bit of defensive utility) and fairly niche CB Tera Blast Flying sets which aren't the norm. I, myself, have never seen a Valiant or Roaring Moon running Tera Blast, and I don't think they would run it at all. DD Kyurem runs Tera Blast, but other sets don't. Enam runs Tera Stellar Tera Blast, so a bit of a special case. Rilla's CB dex set does not mention Tera Blast at all, although Swords Dance can definitely run it. Similarly, Sand Sweeper Exca doesn't run it, which is its only dex set. Serp is in the same boat as Iron Moth. Volcanion - sure? Only on its Specs sets though, which aren't the trend right now as far as I know. Nobody really uses Blaziken anymore, but for what it's worth Tera Blast is not listed on its dex set. Lilli-H runs it - again, sure? Still a B- mon.

So we've got:
(B+ and below italicized)
Reliable users that don't drop anything: Iron Moth, Enamorus, Serperior, Lilligant-H
Users that have to run another set to utilize it: Dragapult (Choice Band), Lando-T (Choice Scarf), Dragonite (Choice Band), Kyurem (Dragon Dance), Rillaboom (Swords Dance)
Listed things that don't utilize it: Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Excadrill, Blaziken

Overall, I'd say Tera Blast does require a high level of gamesense and skill to use and is limited to quite a few users to maximize its potential.

Decent post. Much better than calling tb blast ban incoherrenant non started etc. I felt like my post was in kind to the dismissive attitude that I was responding to but maybe I was still wrong.

Some of the "other sets" listed feel pretty primary and i have seen them all used. Every time Tera blast is used it is a set you wouldn't need to account for if it weren't around.

 

[Bold School]

I, myself, have never seen a Valiant or Roaring Moon running Tera Blast, and I don't think they would run it at all.

Listed things that don't utilize it: Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Excadrill, Blaziken

Are you one of these people who only knows about Tera Flying Acro Moon? Tera Fairy is one of the best sets it can run. You get a great defensive typing and the Dark/Fairy STAB combo is really good. In general, I don't know why people are still underestimating Moon's set versatility after all this time. It's kind of insane.

Iron Valiant I get. It has pretty good coverage moves and doesn't really need it. It's also not one of these DD or QD mons. Even then, it could run TB for some surprise coverage like Ground or something like a special Dark move. Val has a ton of options.

Furthermore, any speed boosting setup sweeper can take advantage of TB if it wants. But this is especially prevalent for Quiver Dance and Dragon Dance mons. A lot of the mons that recently got suspected, such as Volcarona, Gouging Fire, and Kyurem can use TB rather unfairly. And I'm not saying banned or borderline mons would be fine without TB like some other folks try to, but TB definitely increases the coverage options past what would be natural. There are so many great 2 STAB combos like Dark/Fairy, Flying/Ground, Ice/Ground, Bolt/Beam, Grass/Fire, etc. that mons can get when they otherwise couldn't.

 

[658Greninja]

Hi I rarely post here (or even look in here) for my own sanity but I really wanted to share something I thought was cool.

I made a semi-stall (bulky balance?) team that originally started around Lokix + AV Alomomola but ended up switching to Wish Mola with a bunch of fat fucks. This team features two pretty niche hazard removers, Weezing-Galar isn't that unique anymore but Cyclizar has been actually pretty nice for a double hazard removal core.

Cyclizar @ Assault Vest Ability: Regenerator Tera Type: Fairy EVs: 252 HP / 16 SpD / 240 Spe Jolly Nature - Knock Off - Rapid Spin - U-turn - Temper Flare

With Assault Vest it can pivot into a decent amount of things and actually annoy Gholdengo switching in to spinblock, even getting a boosted Temper Flare if Rapid Spin fails. Even with terrible bulk, your speed and typing let you soft check a decent amount of things while removing hazards for Kyurem to come in and do Kyurem things. Ogerpon-W, Darkrai, Iron Moth, Zapdos, etc.. are all potential entry points for Cyclizar to at least get U-turn chip or a Rapid Spin off.

I got reqs with this team pretty easily, only really struggling with Fairy-types like Iron Valiant and Enamorus due to the stacked weaknesses.

Anyway I really enjoy this meta, I don't think anything needs to be banned besides maybe Ogerpon-W. Okay that's all, have a good day everyone

Yeah no.

I just don’t see the vision.

Appreciate the dedication, but if your dedicated spinner only does around 45% max to the most common Ghold set (defensive Ghold), then its probably not a reliable spinner. Being unable to threaten Pecha and Sinistcha besides Knock or U-Turn for momentum is also not great for it.

While we’re on the topic of spinning and hazards, I want to highlight a set I’ve been running.


Samurott-Hisui @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Chople Berry
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Rash Nature
- Surf
- Ceaseless Edge
- Knock Off
- Encore

Might optimize the EVs later, but to sum it up, Surf smacks a ton of Samu’s physically bulky checks such as Zapdos, Zama, Clef, Corv, etc. You also one-shot Tusk and have a high roll to OHKO Lando after a Ceaseless. It also helps that most special walls in the tier hate switching into Samurott and even with minimal or 0 Atk investment, Ceaseless and Knock are still generating immense pressure onto teams. I like this set for how hard Surf punishes Tusk for staying in on Samu while 1v1ing Corv, enabling teammates like Gambit. You could also run Chople in case of CC.

 

[Stories]

Yeah no.

I just don’t see the vision.

Appreciate the dedication, but if your dedicated spinner only does around 45% max to the most common Ghold set (defensive Ghold), then its probably not a reliable spinner. Being unable to threaten Pecha and Sinistcha besides Knock or U-Turn for momentum is also not great for it.

Gonna ignore the baseless criticism of a Rapid Spinner losing to a Spinblocker on a team with double removal that you use to segue into posting your own set, really unnecessary and kinda cringe.

In my experience those PDef Gholdengo teams end up really annoyed by SubTect Kyurem, so in any case I'm fine with Cyclizar just popping Gholdengo's Air Balloon then pivoting to Alomomola to get Kyurem on the field safely.

 

[Bold School]

Gonna ignore the baseless criticism of a Rapid Spinner losing to a Spinblocker on a team with double removal that you use to segue into posting your own set, really unnecessary and kinda cringe.

In my experience those PDef Gholdengo teams end up really annoyed by SubTect Kyurem, so in any case I'm fine with Cyclizar just popping Gholdengo's Air Balloon then pivoting to Alomomola to get Kyurem on the field safely.

Because it was brought up, I just want to point out that Cyclizar can actually beat Gholdengo in a couple of other ways: Overheat and Tera Dark Knock Off. I used a Life Orb set with offensive investment in testing, though, so I don't know what the calcs would be on your set. Conversely, Temper Flare might be able to 1HKO Ghold in the right set according to some brief calcs I ran. I'm not saying you are wrong to run it less offensive and more for utility. It just seems that a lot of people don't know Cyclizar can in fact beat Gholdengo.

While this might not be helpful in your case, it should be noted that Cyclizar actually has a lot of options. The common myth that Ghold beats spinners is also just generally not true. Many spinners have moves to hit it supereffectively. Not saying this for you, but for the general thread.

 

[Conflux123]

Because it was brought up, I just want to point out that Cyclizar can actually beat Gholdengo in a couple of other ways: Overheat and Tera Dark Knock Off. I used a Life Orb set with offensive investment in testing, though, so I don't know what the calcs would be on your set. Conversely, Temper Flare might be able to 1HKO Ghold in the right set according to some brief calcs I ran. I'm not saying you are wrong to run it less offensive and more for utility. It just seems that a lot of people don't know Cyclizar can in fact beat Gholdengo.

While this might not be helpful in your case, it should be noted that Cyclizar actually has a lot of options. The common myth that Ghold beats spinners is also just generally not true. Many spinners have moves to hit it supereffectively. Not saying this for you, but for the general thread.

On stall cyclizar can actually run temper flare to beat ghold after it tries to rapid spin into it. Just another idea.

Cyclizar is quite solid on Stall (not a top tier, but a decent mid tier) due to Rapid Spin + U-Turn + Knock.

I would say it’s above decent mid tier, but it’s a matter of preference imo. Since I am a pedantic stall player, I will mention some other cool stuff Cyclizar does on stall. With U-turn it becomes a Magma Storm switch in and with Regen it can switch into pivoting moves like U-turn and Volt Switch to prevent Blissey from getting worn down over the course of the game. Protect with tera steel is used because it can be a good Future Sight absorber with Regen. Happy Birthday.

 

[RainebowValiant]

View attachment 691973
Yeah no.

I just don’t see the vision.

Appreciate the dedication, but if your dedicated spinner only does around 45% max to the most common Ghold set (defensive Ghold), then its probably not a reliable spinner. Being unable to threaten Pecha and Sinistcha besides Knock or U-Turn for momentum is also not great for it.

While we’re on the topic of spinning and hazards, I want to highlight a set I’ve been running.


Samurott-Hisui @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Chople Berry
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe
Rash Nature
- Surf
- Ceaseless Edge
- Knock Off
- Encore

Might optimize the EVs later, but to sum it up, Surf smacks a ton of Samu’s physically bulky checks such as Zapdos, Zama, Clef, Corv, etc. You also one-shot Tusk and have a high roll to OHKO Lando after a Ceaseless. It also helps that most special walls in the tier hate switching into Samurott and even with minimal or 0 Atk investment, Ceaseless and Knock are still generating immense pressure onto teams. I like this set for how hard Surf punishes Tusk for staying in on Samu while 1v1ing Corv, enabling teammates like Gambit. You could also run Chople in case of CC.

Cyclizar is quite solid on Stall (not a top tier, but a decent mid tier) due to Rapid Spin + U-Turn + Knock. For its last slot, it runs Protect or Temper Flare to beat Gholdengo.

Ban Tblast

Anyways rare post here from Raine to say that Dec 1 is my birthday! Happy birthday to me, the goat of bug monotype :pray: