Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Well you'd still be wrong because the only thing that happened was ladder being dumb. Tinkaton is well regarded and a strong pick in the tier. Also chill. You're acting like Tinkaton emptied your whole live savings or something.
Hammers are expensive.

You could use Smack Down if you really want to kill the birds... also Headlong is stronger than Rock Slide vs Kyurem. Smack Down lets you beat Corv and Zapdos, while also 2HKOing Moltres without making contact.
Only issue I see with this is Smack Down is a LOT more prediction reliant, since it won't produce significant damage output on its own and you essentially need to tag them on the switch for max Momentum gains. Corv would have time to grab an Iron Defense or take off a chunk with Brave Bird, Moltres could Wisp, etc. Smack Down has to get them on entry rather than functioning on the "first" turn as well like Stone Edge could.

Not to say the benefits don't exist: Corv takes a decent chunk if HLR is neutral and thus is much riskier to U-Turn rather than hard-switch, while Zap and Moltres obviously get gobsmacked if they're grounded and don't Tera. At the same time, this depends on Tusk having to run HLR as its STAB since Earthquake is significantly easier for these mons to play around (Zapdos has a chance to survive Smack Down -> EQ vs Smack Down -> HLR), and HLR obviously opens it back up to Contact punishment in these scenarios.

I feel like ultimately, dealing with these mons isn't something Tusk can do efficiently enough to go any deeper than Stone Edge as a lure to grab immediate results. If you want Tusk to not get stopped by Birds, I think you'd be better served by something apparent but still consistent.
 
Hammers are expensive.


Only issue I see with this is Smack Down is a LOT more prediction reliant, since it won't produce significant damage output on its own and you essentially need to tag them on the switch for max Momentum gains. Corv would have time to grab an Iron Defense or take off a chunk with Brave Bird, Moltres could Wisp, etc. Smack Down has to get them on entry rather than functioning on the "first" turn as well like Stone Edge could.

Not to say the benefits don't exist: Corv takes a decent chunk if HLR is neutral and thus is much riskier to U-Turn rather than hard-switch, while Zap and Moltres obviously get gobsmacked if they're grounded and don't Tera. At the same time, this depends on Tusk having to run HLR as its STAB since Earthquake is significantly easier for these mons to play around (Zapdos has a chance to survive Smack Down -> EQ vs Smack Down -> HLR), and HLR obviously opens it back up to Contact punishment in these scenarios.

I feel like ultimately, dealing with these mons isn't something Tusk can do efficiently enough to go any deeper than Stone Edge as a lure to grab immediate results. If you want Tusk to not get stopped by Birds, I think you'd be better served by something apparent but still consistent.
Corviknight is also weak to Headlong Rush after a Smack Down. It is definitely prediction reliant, and in fact if the opponent has two Flying types they can pretty much PP stall you anyway. That's what limits this option the most, for sure. (Other than 4MSS).

Also it's my birthday yippee
 
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"SV OU is pretty enjoyable and competitive right now, in my opinion."

Milestone of under a million games played this month (didn't happen throughout the entirety of gen 8).

Two 55%+ pro ban suspect tests that left a bad taste in peoples' mouths and reinforced the divisions in the community.

An average of 6/10 for competitiveness and enjoyment from the most elite and dedicated players of the tier in the last survey.

You are welcome to your opinion but i'm left confused as to why there is such denial to any push-back on the state of the tier.
 
short post just for visibility on my opinion on direction from here. tiers in a weird spot and i feel there’s very clearly a problem but its hard to put a finger on it

reposting my brief thoughts on kyurem: i really hope we can come around to the idea of properly nuking kyurem. while it on and off goes from good to very fucking annoying because the volatility of the meta which skews the perception of whats broken among literally all of the controversial topics. i personally feel the no kyurem meta had a ton of room for creative expression, especially when dealing with top threats in different ways. while there is a lot of no kyurem teams here, i didnt share a ton of them bc i felt theyd be eh rn. from a building and laddering standpoint i had the most fun ive had with this tier in a long time, the structure variety i experienced felt very very fresh. this is just my opinion of course but that two week stint was genuinely the best ive felt with the tier in a long while in several ways and hopefully others felt the same.

personally i feel no kyurem meta looked like a decent step in the right direction and several people i know felt similar. considering we spent a decent bit of time (about two weeks) in a no kyu environment i think the conversation is a bit different this time instead of “two suspects lol no”.

tera blast suspect is a weird one but something worth exploring. removing some of the unpredictability would honestly be beneficial even if sacrificing some variety. honestly my main reasoning for this is very bad but, tera blast ban comfortably can lead to a volcarona resus. as it stands volc would still be too much but it’s defensive profile would be very nice in dealing with the current state of things so if tera blast ends up going it would be effectively nerfed and worth looking into from there.
 
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short post just for visibility on my opinion on direction from here. tiers in a weird spot and i feel there’s very clearly a problem but its hard to put a finger on it

reposting my brief thoughts on kyurem: i really hope we can come around to the idea of properly nuking kyurem. while it on and off goes from good to very fucking annoying because the volatility of the meta which skews the perception of whats broken among literally all of the controversial topics. i personally feel the no kyurem meta had a ton of room for creative expression, especially when dealing with top threats in different ways. while there is a lot of no kyurem teams here, i didnt share a ton of them bc i felt theyd be eh rn. from a building and laddering standpoint i had the most fun ive had with this tier in a long time, the structure variety i experienced felt very very fresh. this is just my opinion of course but that two week stint was genuinely the best ive felt with the tier in a long while in several ways and hopefully others felt the same.

personally i feel no kyurem meta looked like a decent step in the right direction and several people i know felt similar. considering we spent a decent bit of time (about two weeks) in a no kyu environment i think the conversation is a bit different this time instead of “two suspects lol no”.

tera blast suspect is a weird one but something worth exploring. removing some of the unpredictability would honestly be beneficial even if sacrificing some variety. honestly my main reasoning for this is very bad but, tera blast ban comfortably can lead to a volcarona resus. as it stands volc would still be too much but it’s defensive profile would be very nice in dealing with the current state of things so if tera blast ends up going it would be effectively nerfed and worth looking into from there.
I think you got the point about Kyurem here. I really enjoyed no Kyurem meta as well, been a long time since I didn’t have fun building teams, and these 2 weeks were really cool to play in general, besides the fact Gliscor and (maybe) Waterpon became more than annoying. I still think banning Kyurem was a very huge step forward for the tier, and given how weird ended the suspect (with some new cheaters being found afterward that would have changed the result of the vote again iirc), I think seriously discussing a new suspect is needed at least. Right now we are staying in an unhealthy metagame state and we should change it quickly, so yeah.
Concerning Tera Blast, I feel like re-opening a thread or idk what is welcomed, I’d love to see new thoughts about good players about it at the moment.
 
Milestone of under a million games played this month (didn't happen throughout the entirety of gen 8).
While I don't really disagree that there are problems in this metagame that need to be addressed (Kyurem namely), I honestly think this statement in particular is a bit misleading for a couple of reasons.

1: We are no longer in a pandemic like we were for the nearly entirety of Gen 8. Activity across websites all across the globe has gone down since that period of time since people are no longer stuck at home due to there being a deadly virus rapidly spreading around all across the world, they are back to going about their daily lives as usual and don't have the extra time anymore.

2: VGC has grown substantially in the past few years and continues to do so at a fairly rapid rate, which has naturally taken people away from Smogon metagames to the point that we are no longer the quintessential format for competitive Pokemon like we were often considered to be ever since the late 2000s. To be clear, I don't want this to come of as me saying that this is a bad thing, (I actually do like too see that an officially supported format is getting more popular and better support quite a lot. Smogon wouldn't even need to exist if VGC Support wasn't absolute dogshit for the longest time), but I do think that pretending like this is not the case is just silly.
 
While I don't really disagree that there are problems in this metagame that need to be addressed (Kyurem namely), I honestly think this statement in particular is a bit misleading for a couple of reasons.

1: We are no longer in a pandemic like we were for the nearly entirety of Gen 8. Activity across websites all across the globe has gone down since that period of time since people are no longer stuck at home due to there being a deadly virus rapidly spreading around all across the world, they are back to going about their daily lives as usual and don't have the extra time anymore.

2: VGC has grown substantially in the past few years and continues to do so at a fairly rapid rate, which has naturally taken people away from Smogon metagames to the point that we are no longer the quintessential format for competitive Pokemon like we were often considered to be ever since the late 2000s. To be clear, I don't want this to come of as me saying that this is a bad thing, (I actually do like too see that an officially supported format is getting more popular and better support quite a lot. Smogon wouldn't even need to exist if VGC Support wasn't absolute dogshit for the longest time), but I do think that pretending like this is not the case is just silly.
I could just quite as easily say that if it weren't for the last 2 months of suspect tests, which have inflated game numbers and have more of a direct impact on the player-base, that this point would have been achieved sooner. The fact that this thread has a record number of comments and yet has seemingly less of an active playerbase also speaks to that. While your point is valid, it's not as directly comparable as the last two I mentioned and there was nothing stopping people from playing other games at home like among us or apex instead of playing gen 8 OU.

I actually agree with your 2nd point. I just think that reflects badly on the singles OU meta, that people would rather play VGC instead. I mean, the VGC meta has actually been less stale than the singles meta which just speaks volumes.
 
I actually agree with your 2nd point. I just think that reflects badly on the singles OU meta, that people would rather play VGC instead. I mean, the VGC meta has actually been less stale than the singles meta which just speaks volumes.

maybe im reading too much onto this but like... maybe vgc is getting popular because its much more accessible (other than the fuckass legendary pokemon you need to bring from other games. boo) than it used to be AND the metas are good and fun. I won't act like theyre perfect (sneasler.......), but I don't like this "the vgc meta is still bad actually, singles is just worse" tone. You don't have to throw vgc under the bus to complain about OU lol
 
maybe im reading too much onto this but like... maybe vgc is getting popular because its much more accessible (other than the fuckass legendary pokemon you need to bring from other games. boo) than it used to be AND the metas are good and fun. I won't act like theyre perfect (sneasler.......), but I don't like this "the vgc meta is still bad actually, singles is just worse" tone. You don't have to throw vgc under the bus to complain about OU lol
My bad if it came across as if i'm throwing VGC under the bus which isn't what I was trying to do. While it's not my cup of tea, I have no problem if people prefer to play that over whatever else.

My frustration lies in the fact that the singles meta isn't as great and enjoyable as it could be and perhaps that is why people are exploring less traditional avenues.
 
My bad if it came across as if i'm throwing VGC under the bus which isn't what I was trying to do. While it's not my cup of tea, I have no problem if people prefer to play that over whatever else.

My frustration lies in the fact that the singles meta isn't as great and enjoyable as it could be and perhaps that is why people are exploring different avenues.

That's fair, I do think thats probably happening to some people, though I just like to give some credit to vgc for actually having a pretty fun meta and less so becoming popular because of OUs struggles, if that makes sense. Sorry if I jumped the gun, i just noticed quite a few single players like to shit on vgc which annoys me a bit, as someone who mainly plays singles but likes watching both LOL
 
Speaking of electric types, something I've been trying to use on hyper offense is thundurus incarnate.
Thundurus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Grass Knot
It's really good as an anti-lead, as nothing likes prankster thunderwave or taunt. The only 2 leads i can think of that dont mind are samurott(dies to a thunderbolt) and iron treads(gets 2 shot by grass knot). In addition, it can be used as an emergency check against something like a iron valiant with sash.
 
"SV OU is pretty enjoyable and competitive right now, in my opinion."

Milestone of under a million games played this month (didn't happen throughout the entirety of gen 8).

Two 55%+ pro ban suspect tests that left a bad taste in peoples' mouths and reinforced the divisions in the community.

An average of 6/10 for competitiveness and enjoyment from the most elite and dedicated players of the tier in the last survey.

You are welcome to your opinion but i'm left confused as to why there is such denial to any push-back on the state of the tier.
Honestly at this point if we went full natdex and suspected tera I wouldn't complain because I think the tier needs some sort of drastic action due to lack of enjoyment and lack of meta engagement

With swsh OU it was never this bad even when clefable was broken pre dlc2 and running the meta, people hated that meta but had comfort in the fact that dlc2 was gonna make the meta way more fun, which ended up being the case. SV never really had that luxury of the dlc making tiering far easier like swsh did.

I think maybe taking a page from natdex's book might be wise because it seems like tier enjoyment over there has skyrocketed since tera went, so possibly considering a 2nd tera suspect as drastic and somewhat unfounded as that would be could be the right play, because as good as suspecting tera blast would be it definitely creates the question of some of "if we suspect tera blast why not suspect tera as a whole?" If that tera suspect ended up working out in natdex, could it work out here?

I know natdex and sv ou are different tiers, but where SV OU is, is not that different from where natdex was months ago, so maybe such a thing is kind of warranted. Just a thought but I wouldn't mind if we did something that drastic if it means tier engagement and enjoyability goes up.
 
Honestly at this point if we went full natdex and suspected tera I wouldn't complain because I think the tier needs some sort of drastic action due to lack of enjoyment and lack of meta engagement

With swsh OU it was never this bad even when clefable was broken pre dlc2 and running the meta, people hated that meta but had comfort in the fact that dlc2 was gonna make the meta way more fun, which ended up being the case. SV never really had that luxury of the dlc making tiering far easier like swsh did.

I think maybe taking a page from natdex's book might be wise because it seems like tier enjoyment over there has skyrocketed since tera went, so possibly considering a 2nd tera suspect as drastic and somewhat unfounded as that would be could be the right play, because as good as suspecting tera blast would be it definitely creates the question of some of "if we suspect tera blast why not suspect tera as a whole?" If that tera suspect ended up working out in natdex, could it work out here?

I know natdex and sv ou are different tiers, but where SV OU is, is not that different from where natdex was months ago, so maybe such a thing is kind of warranted. Just a thought but I wouldn't mind if we did something that drastic if it means tier engagement and enjoyability goes up.
1. Too many influential people afraid of being "wrong".
2. Unbanning Tera would undo months if not years of tiering and we would basically be starting over again not too long before a new generation is released. The problem was not having a tera suspect at the correct time.

I share your opinion but I wouldn't hold my breath...
 
Scattered thoughts:

Tier is mostly good, but can still improve for sure. Liked metagame more without Kyurem, but there will be another day to dissect that and other topics like Tera Blast if support is there for sure. Big thing right now is keeping an open mind and facilitating the process.

Talks about metagame popularity and larger conclusions are silly. We are never hitting pandemic numbers and we are never returning to peak numbers when National Dex now exists, VGC is exponentially more popular on PS than ever, and people are touching grass again. You can never expect Smogon metagames to rival official ones just due to vast discrepancy in resources and marketing. Personally, I applaud the VGC crowd and I always root for National Dex to grow as it grows our larger community, but there’s no doubt the pie chart looks different now than it did 3-5 years ago.

Adding on to above point: there’s little-to-no correlation between total ladder battles and metagame health. In fact, there’s a negative correlation usually as it’s most popular around the start of a generation and surrounding new releases, but these add variables of imbalance and question to the metagame. In reality, >90% of players on ladder don’t understand tiering and just want to click buttons and have fun at the surface level. Theres a reason why the vast majority of games occur between 1000 and 1250. I think people drawing conclusions here are more looking to start fights and back arguments they otherwise couldn’t than make actual discussion points and coherent arguments.
 
there’s little-to-no correlation between total ladder battles and metagame health. In fact, there’s a negative correlation
I cannot believe that a person in your position thinks that metagame enjoyment (health) is inversely proportional to ladder battles. I had to read that back again to make sure what I was reading was right. The vibes in here and on discord channels more than reflect that.

You talk about VGC and National Dex success and that's reflected in the statistics because *checks notes* it's become more enjoyable with positively received changes? 90% of players don't care about tiering because they just want to have fun and you and your team are responsible for the ruleset that brings competitiveness and enjoyment in this tier.

But please, attack my character and conflate wanting a better tier for "looking to start fights".
 
I cannot believe that a person in your position thinks that metagame enjoyment (health) is inversely proportional to ladder battles. I had to read that back again to make sure what I was reading was right. The vibes in here and on discord channels more than reflect that.

You talk about VGC and National Dex success and that's reflected in the statistics because *checks notes* it's become more enjoyable with positively received changes? 90% of players don't care about tiering because they just want to have fun and you and your team are responsible for the ruleset that brings competitiveness and enjoyment in this tier.

But please, attack my character and conflate wanting a better tier for "looking to start fights".
So before I get to my main point, I disagree with Metagame "enjoyment" equating to the health of the metagame as well. These are two separate metrics that are ideally balanced but not inherently one and the same. The "Health" of a Metagame, to define my criteria on this point, refers to the degree to which skilled play decides the outcome rather than variance outside player agency. Moving to the main point of response.

Adding on to above point: there’s little-to-no correlation between total ladder battles and metagame health. In fact, there’s a negative correlation usually as it’s most popular around the start of a generation and surrounding new releases, but these add variables of imbalance and question to the metagame. In reality, >90% of players on ladder don’t understand tiering and just want to click buttons and have fun at the surface level. Theres a reason why the vast majority of games occur between 1000 and 1250. I think people drawing conclusions here are more looking to start fights and back arguments they otherwise couldn’t than make actual discussion points and coherent arguments.

You quoted this point without including the reasoning that immediately followed the supposedly unbelievable statement, which is that more games occur when content is new and thus people are experimenting with it (new toy syndrome), but this also doesn't reflect directly on Metagame health or competitive-ness because those new elements, as mentioned, are being experimented with and thus the new changes haven't crystalized or formed a solid trend yet. Whether this reasoning holds up or not, no counterargument was provided to the logic besides "the vibes here and on Discord reflect my point," which to someone like myself who is not in the Discord and has seen this attitude throughout other Gens too, amounts to a "take my word for it" response rather than an opposing train of logic.

This is the aspect that feels like "looking to start fights" because there isn't a solid basis to respond and discuss around coming from the posts made, just antagonizing or emphasizing a problem without a solution or approach proposed. Assertion like this doesn't add to the point beyond seeming to stir sh*t by attacking the voters' instead of their logic
1. Too many influential people afraid of being "wrong".

Personally I get the frustration with not removing Kyurem or Gliscor, as I don't care for the effect either has on the tier, but it's not like they're the sum total of what the Metagame is about. Their remaining here is ultimately the tiering process running the way it's intended to based on several prior Gens and years for which it sufficed.
 
Dropping my coin in the wishing well: I believe other moves should definitely be considered to help balance the power level of Pokémon that might otherwise be too strong. I’m specifically thinking of Swords Dance. Honestly, does anyone really think it’s still competitive?
What is uncompetitive about Swords Dance or another move you would propose tiering action on? You know this is going to be a much harder sell and far more controversial than the already contentious Tera Blast, so the onus is on you to provide reasoning instead of "how does anyone think this is okay?" for a move that, yes, most of the player base DOES think is acceptable.
 
Dropping my coin in the wishing well: I believe other moves should definitely be considered to help balance the power level of Pokémon that might otherwise be too strong. I’m specifically thinking of Swords Dance. Honestly, does anyone really think it’s still competitive?
are we deadass

Boosting moves are fine. Most of the times using them is either an opportunity cost for your opponent to gain momentum or it's a completely deserved reward for a clean switch in. The only real exception i can think of is kingambit since his natural bulk lets him take a hit from 100 off of pretty much any mon with tera shenanigans and then threaten back with boosted stab sucker punch/kowtow/fairy tb if its running that. but that's not a problem with swords dance, that's a problem with kingambit and tera.

seriously what is it with these posts recently?
 
I cannot believe that a person in your position thinks that metagame enjoyment (health) is inversely proportional to ladder battles. I had to read that back again to make sure what I was reading was right. The vibes in here and on discord channels more than reflect that
First: enjoyment and health are very different

Second: Anything is most popular when first released. It is new and shiny, but it is also least regulated and understood at this point. You’re acting like I am saying something shocking, but it is just reality. Obviously metagames are most popular when they first come out, obviously they’re less balanced when there’s no time yet for tiering action, and obviously playerbases better understand tiers when they have time to play them.

This isn’t even SV OU specific — it applies to virtually every generation.
 
Boosting moves are at their worst they have ever been, this Gen. We have Dondozo, Clodsire, Skeledirge, Clefable and even Quagsire is somewhat viable as a Unaware user. That on top of multiple HO threats that just outspeed the Boosting Mon with a Booster Energy or a Weather ability. If all else fails, there is always priority, starting from Kingambit.

Don,t get me wrong, boosting moves are still incredibly good and the meta is way too offensive for my liking. But these moves by themselves have never been broken and will never be. Most of the time, Mons are the broken aspect and what should be banned.

If there are moves that I would ban it would be Knock Off or Rocks + Spikes on the same team, but no one is ready for that conversation yet, so don,t even bother scolding me on that idea. Right now, Waterpon and Raging Bolt are the most glaring issues (outside of Gliscor who barely avoided Ban). There is also Kyurem, but I think its less broken than the other 3 Mons. In reality, I would be supporting any Ban of a Suspected Mon that happens (outside of some that I think are good for the meta AND not broken, such as Tusk or the controversial Zamazenta).
 
Dropping my coin in the wishing well: I believe other moves should definitely be considered to help balance the power level of Pokémon that might otherwise be too strong. I’m specifically thinking of Swords Dance. Honestly, does anyone really think it’s still competitive?
I do not think Swords Dance has any case for tiering action. If you’re having issues with specific users, feel free to message me and we can talk about your approach or maybe take a deeper dive though.
 
I feel like ultimately, dealing with these mons isn't something Tusk can do efficiently enough to go any deeper than Stone Edge as a lure to grab immediate results. If you want Tusk to not get stopped by Birds, I think you'd be better served by something apparent but still consistent.
I wish Head Smash was either more reliable or had less recoil, but I think it's an option to consider. It compresses hitting the birds + Dragonite which is pretty nice, though it really only fits on offensive sets since you'll still need Ice Spinner or Bulk Up to hit Lando or Gliscor for any significant damage.

252 Atk Great Tusk Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 266-314 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (ouchie ow 35%-42% recoil)
 
I do not think Swords Dance has any case for tiering action. If you’re having issues with specific users, feel free to message me and we can talk about your approach or maybe take a deeper dive though.
I am fairly sure this is a post comparing trying to get Swords Dance banned to trying to get Tera Blast banned, not a legitimate appeal to get Swords Dance banned.
 
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