Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Okay to address the reply to my section in particular, there are some serious contentions I have here

First of all, speed tier argument only applies significantly to Iron Valiant and Iron Moth (Boulder uses it but it's not much of a Meta influencer atm), who are good but not exactly short of viable counterplay considering they've been off the radar for a while. Every other BE user applies it to an offensive stat (Moon, Bolt) or has to make notable concessions (Tusk takes a power hit by not investing in ATK to make Speed its stat, for example). If the game's speeding up, that impact where Booster is concerned is on a couple mons, not the item, and mostly affects Valiant against HO considering 116 Speed is already a tier where Bulky/Balance/Stall teams have to assume it's getting a hit or two in when responding to it.

There's no "let's be generous" about it with Booster Energy. Roaring Moon is the only mon in OU were BE plays the majority role in its most controversial set (and I'm assuming I'm not out of the loop on people trying other stuff like Choice band more or even some funky Bulky Set or some shit).
  • Gouging Fire was a combination of its monstrously min-maxed stats and moves that BE certainly played well with... because much like Roaring Moon it plays well as a Win Condition that doesn't pivot around (on said BE sets, it certainly did a lot of other things). If you took away its Corviknight level defenses, the reliable Recovery options, or its spammable 120 BP good-coverage STAB options (to compensate the "eh" 115 Base ATK), the kit that gave it 15 ways to overwhelm the tier is a lot less sturdy. Heck it might fare differently next Gen where it doesn't have Tera to shrug off its set-up turn survival.
  • Flutter Mane was banned when Booster Energy was thought to be 50% on non-Speed stats, but my memory is it using Booster speed if any regardless, and the power drop only takes it from "absolutely hilariously broken" to "absolutely broken" in an OU context.
  • Iron Bundle barely used it but I doubt a mon with perfect 2-move STAB coverage is reliant specifically on a one-time boost to scare the tier
Attributing "Broken with, not without" to Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon isn't being "generous," it's literally the furthest the tier history actually allows you to take the argument on its effect on mons.

The Sleep comparison is a non-starter because that was not remotely the same. Yes, sleep is "inherently problematic," which is why it's had a Clause for the entire lifespan of competitive Pokemon (look at Gen 5's version and that nonsense). Booster Energy mons are not remotely in the same echelon of uncompetitive, and the reason Sleep Move clause was implemented was because old Sleep Clause altered mechanics for a purpose it wasn't even serving in SV. "There are some differences" yeah of course there are, like Booster Energy being an item, not a game mechanic!

This was not the mods bonking a mechanic over 2 problem users, this was a long-standing band-aid on tiering policy being addressed when it wasn't treating the issue it was breaking the rules for. No case has been made for Booster Energy being an uncompetitive mechanic (as in taking skill vs chance out of the equation to achieve a winning advantage) that would justify addressing it the same way. Frankly at this point I prefer Sleep Move Clause's effect on the tier, but I lament it happening mid-gen because it keeps coming up as a terrible argument/attempted precedent for other proposed changes like this.
You made a lot of overgeneralizations. Speed BE can be used on any fast enough paradox mon. For instance, Roaring Moon often runs BE Attack because of its stats and how it is fast enough to outrun nearly everything with a single DD anyways. However, BE speed Moon is still perfectly good. And so on. There is no good reason to look at the versatility of BE and pigeon hole it into a single boost type per mon just based on what you think is most popular.

Nor is there a valid reason to claim boosted speed tiers as something that only impacts HO, as if faster mons than Iron Valiant like Ace, Meow, or Pult (or Valiant itself) are never used on slower paced teams than HO. That simply isn't true. Speed tiers impact every team that actually engages with them with even a single mon. So, basically everything besides full on stall.

Roaring Moon in general has a lot more set diversity than people give it credit for. Boiling it down to only one "most controversial set" isn't really an accurate representation of its capabilities. It wasn't that GF suddenly got new capabilities when it was banned. It was that the DD sets were more properly explored by then.

I don't care to argue with you about how much each banned Paradox mon, of which there is certainly more than 2, may or may not have been because of BE, and if so, what fraction of the blame we are hypothetically assigning that. My point was that even if it was only Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon as you say, it would still be sufficient for at least an argument. We banned Shed Tail with only two abusers after it was found that Cyclizar wasn't the only one broken with that move. But more than that, the BE discussion goes beyond only the individual mons just as you claim Sleep does.

The reason why I glossed over the differences between sleep and BE, while acknowledging they do exist, was because the perfection of the analogy was never the point. This is a mechanics discussion. Calling BE only an item ignores all the points that had been made prior in that discussion discussing the very real impact of BE from an actual mechanics standpoint. You can agree or disagree on the alleged health of said BE impact, but it undeniably exists.
Also I can't believe you all started to talk about Ceaseless Edge for a bit and then just stopped, because you were literally right there and about to find out who is the real culprit behind the Hazard problem
Sadly, that's how it goes a lot of the time. The community can be a bit volatile with opinions. Interest in a various topic is also not guaranteed. We have far more engagement from troll bait Uber drop discussions than we did for, say, discussing Gliscor counterplay leading up to that suspect. In the end, people will talk about what they want to.
what are peoples thoughts on the bulkier tera ground dd roost moon that has skyrocketed recently on high ladder? it feels extremely strong, especially into para mons, and you barely even feel the loss of acro into val and tusk
This is just the tip of the iceberg on what Moon can do with the various DD sets.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 153-180 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
what is this supposed to prove? Cant 2hko a fake Mon with stab and choice band (which is unlikely to be a great set)
Wouldn't you wanna use Close Combat against Cobaltion? Or does the main Palafin set have 4 move syndrome?
big time. Palafin is an uncheckable Mon if it runs jet punch, wave crash, close combat, taunt, encore, bulk up, choice band, and 3 different Tera types all on the same set, but it can't do that. Wellspring and Raging Bolt will be big problems for it.

Let's say Palafin is unbanned. Is priority jet punch enough to bring Volc back to the tier? Tera ground stocks go way down, as does Teraless stocks. We could see a resurgence of Tera Grass but this brings its own challenges. I could see fairy still being good, or Tera water making a resurgence (bolt keeps this in check a great deal though.) With Tera Blast removed it'd be no question. What do others think?
 
We have far more engagement from troll bait Uber drop discussions than we did for, say, discussing Gliscor counterplay leading up to that suspect.
In retrospect I feel like the gliscor counterplay was overcomplicated when in fact it is quite simple. Use ice/water moves and if gliscor teras (which can be easy to telegraph once you figure out the set) you adapt to said tera type.

Edit: Gliscor when Palafin's 160 attack:

giphy.gif
 
Last edited:
Maybe it's time that I mention the way that I approached this issue, being to look a potential checks for the problematic mons and then wonder to myself "But why are they not working as a check"?
 
Let's say Palafin is unbanned. Is priority jet punch enough to bring Volc back to the tier? Tera ground stocks go way down, as does Teraless stocks. We could see a resurgence of Tera Grass but this brings its own challenges. I could see fairy still being good, or Tera water making a resurgence (bolt keeps this in check a great deal though.) With Tera Blast removed it'd be no question. What do others think?

I see what you're saying but Volc never only ran Tera Ground anyway, the whole issue is it could be any Tera and you just have to hope it's the one your team can deal with.

Even then, I think Fairy and Grass were more common so your theoretical Volcarona check doesn't work out
 
Let's say Palafin is unbanned. Is priority jet punch enough to bring Volc back to the tier? Tera ground stocks go way down, as does Teraless stocks. We could see a resurgence of Tera Grass but this brings its own challenges. I could see fairy still being good, or Tera water making a resurgence (bolt keeps this in check a great deal though.) With Tera Blast removed it'd be no question. What do others think?
for the millionth time, volc is not coming back lmao
 
what are peoples thoughts on the bulkier tera ground dd roost moon that has skyrocketed recently on high ladder? it feels extremely strong, especially into para mons, and you barely even feel the loss of acro into val and tusk
What's the spread on it by the way? I've seen the set but not the EVs
 
What's the spread on it by the way? I've seen the set but not the EVs
Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 148 Def / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
although you can go for a little more speed at the expense of bulk to outspeed lando, or even a lot more speed to outspeed kyu. The defense evs idk if they're for any specific hit, but they let you take on hamu even easier and lets you have an ok roll to live +2 tera normal glisc facade +2 0 Atk Tera Normal Gliscor Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Roaring Moon: 316-373 (90 - 106.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO and then still outspeed tusk. roost itself, even on a mon like moon who isnt particularly bulky, is just so amazing, bc it lets you take down all the stuff that expects to chip you down slowly or revenge you with priority like they would a normal moon. also, it can set up on even gleam ghold with tera, because after the mir drop they dont outdamage roost unless they np
 
I actually thought Palafin was probably the only mon capable of dropping from ubers way before the idea even gained traction. Use 2 Write It In on surveys when given the chance, or just talk about it on Discord. That viewpoint stems from not wanting anything to remain banned that could not be broken.

I'm not going to write a whole essay on why I think it's not going to be problematic, but if you look at the context of the current metagame and where Palafin fits In its crippling weakness to hazards and poor matchups into Dragapult, Ogerpon W both very good and common mons on most team structures. Then you have the issue of it attempting to try and beat stuff like Zamazenta, Primarina, Raging Bolt, Sinistcha, and Kyurem, as well as niche things like Manaphy, the Lati twins, and Rotom W. It gets forced into having set coverage issues trying to have options for all these mons but ultimately losing out which leads it to lose verus setup and status mons or be unable to touch a large amount of threats.

Anyway, I can't say for sure it's not going to be broken, but I'm always open to testing things out. A lot of things tend to get exaggerated to look better or worse on paper but in my experience the only way to know for certain is how it does in practice.
 
Last edited:
I am personally looking forward to testing Palafin. I think it's a Pokemon with a lot of mechanical interest and set variety, and I think it's going to be insanely fun to build with with some potentially healthy dynamics to boot. I'll admit I am a skeptic (mostly because I think Tera is probably going to break it) but I do think this is a test that is worth the time and, also, a fun way for our community to celebrate the holiday season.
 
I am personally looking forward to testing Palafin. I think it's a Pokemon with a lot of mechanical interest and set variety, and I think it's going to be insanely fun to build with with some potentially healthy dynamics to boot. I'll admit I am a skeptic (mostly because I think Tera is probably going to break it) but I do think this is a test that is worth the time and, also, a fun way for our community to celebrate the holiday season.
Solgaleo next Christmas trust.
smug-face-smug.gif
 
Yeah guys I wonder if the 160 base attack water type with box art legendary stats, an aqua jet on steroids, and all the coverage it could ever ask for is broken? This might be the biggest waste of time in OU history, remind me why is this is getting tested before tera blast again?

It REALLY doesn't have all the coverage you could ever ask for.

Normal - Body Slam, Facade. Water/Normal is good neutral coverage, but Body Slam without STAB isn't strong enough to go this route. Facade is an interesting tech, but hard to fit.

Fighting - Close Combat, Drain Punch. While not as good for neutral coverage as the above, either much higher BP or a better secondary effect means you don't care. Tera Fighting is also better on a fatty than Tera Normal, since it answers Kingambit.

Ice - Ice Punch. The best move available for Dragonite or Sinischa, and useful for Gliscor and Lando-T if you're not running Wave Crash. Sets without Wave Crash tend to be setup, though, and will greatly struggle to fit it.

Dragon - Outrage. Powerful, but very risky to lock into.

Dark - Throat Chop. Not the worst move, but doesn't have great synergy with Water/Fighting coverage. An option for Sinischa, but Ice Punch has better secondary targets than Throat Chop.

Psychic - Zen Headbutt. Again, not a bad move, but doesn't really hit anything important.


Every Palafin is going to run Water/Fighting, but after that it's pretty middling. Other than Outrage, everything else tops out at 80 BP, and Outrage is a very risky move to lock into. What Palafin does have is a strong utility pool, headlined by Bulk Up, Taunt, Substitute, and Encore, and Water/Fighting is pretty great neutral coverage to safely run the utility stuff.

Wouldn't you wanna use Close Combat against Cobaltion? Or does the main Palafin set have 4 move syndrome?

Virtually all Palafin sets are going to carry Fighting coverage, as both Close Combat (for immediate power) or Drain Punch (for the stallbreaker set) are great moves. Jet Punch is actually somewhat hard to fit on offensive sets that aren't Choice Band.
 
XD true and I predict that Palafin's best tera will be tera dra- wait a minute *looks at the teambuilder* why do so many pokemon use tera dragon now?

Ok but in all seriousness I am starting to see tera dragon become a bit of a trend and I can see why. Resistances to fire grass water and electric is pretty insane. Sure it is weak to some pretty damn good offensive types in ice fairy and itself but I think for a lot of pokemon the pros outweigh the cons.
I’m telling you guys, this is the one…

Mr. Shrimp (Palafin-Hero) @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Jet Punch
- Outrage
- Wave Crash
 
I’m telling you guys, this is the one…

Mr. Shrimp (Palafin-Hero) @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Jet Punch
- Outrage
- Wave Crash
Banning Waterpon and Kingambit is crazy when they are such a big staple in the meta, tier will crash the fuck out if you ban them
 
My favourite community builder exercises are the ones that end with people questioning the integrity of the tiering process. Good job everyone
We brought together dozens of people and will probably have one of the most active suspect tests all generation (aside from Tera). We have people questioning “the integrity of the tiering process” after every survey and test, surely you realize this if you follow this thread.
 
Palafin @ Life Orb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Flip Turn
- Throat Chop

Because of its 160 attack stat I am not convinced Palafin needs cb to destroy the world so I am going the bulky route. Throat chop is for psychic types and jellicent which is a pokemon I will be spreading plenty of propaganda about in the next few days.
 
Palafin @ Life Orb
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Flip Turn
- Throat Chop

Because of its 160 attack stat I am not convinced Palafin needs cb to destroy the world so I am going the bulky route. Throat chop is for psychic types and jellicent which is a pokemon I will be spreading plenty of propaganda about in the next few days.
I highly doubt orb will be worth it on a pokemon that already needs to switch out and re-enter up front
 
Also I can't believe you all started to talk about Ceaseless Edge for a bit and then just stopped, because you were literally right there and about to find out who is the real culprit behind the Hazard problem
1734745048452.png

While I wouldn't say Samurott-H is the highest priority mon to discuss, it has to be the most "free" mon in the meta for its ease of use and the teams it enables. This is gonna get drowned out with the Palafin retest but I agree with this guy that if you want to deal with the hazard problem, Ceaseless Edge (Samurott-H) should be a point of discussion.
 
We brought together dozens of people and will probably have one of the most active suspect tests all generation (aside from Tera). We have people questioning “the integrity of the tiering process” after every survey and test, surely you realize this if you follow this thread.
Metagame health not correlated with player engament or something like that, surely applicable to Smogon meta health
 
Back
Top