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You're leaving out the significant difference between Arena Trap and the move combination described where Arena Trap takes immediate effect when Dugtrio hits the field to rob the opponent of the Switch chance once the advantageous match-up/removal is in place. Block or any trapping move inevitably means the opponent will switch before it goes off, assuming the match-up isn't in their favor and they don't just go to KO you already, which isn't hard since most (good or not) Trapping Move users are very slow for manual trapping compared to Dugtrio's already superior AT.
Most times trapping moves aren't even used for something like an Encore lock, they're used to force progress via the chip damage in cases like Heatran's Magma Storm (which also mostly works because it's strong enough on the attack portion to force the choice between "KO what's out or take chip hits on a switch-in")
Oh boy, yet another massive post about a super-niche Pokemon in OU from Morkal? What a shock (said no one); I'm depressed, and typing stuff like this gives me something productive (outside of school/work) to do on my eternal quest for more dopamine and serotonin. So in today's brain chemical search, I'd like to talk about Crygonal, one of my all-time favorite Pokemon that has done wonders for my team (now it's even better than before thanks to the trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar) with multiple unique advantages in Gen 9's meta. I was planning on talking about Cryogonal earlier in Gen 9, but I feel like with three of the biggest hindrances to Cryogonal gone, it's now a much better time to talk about it as it's far less situational than it was previously. Cryogonal is one of the biggest beneficiaries of the Terrastallizing mechanic because it allows it to escape one of its most significant flaws; its pure defensive Ice typing. I'll be going other some general advantages to Cryogonal along with disadvantages and some particular Tera options that I've been experimenting with as of late, so let's talk about the coolest-looking snowflake around!
Disclaimer:Cryogonal might be the cool as ice, but it is still a situational Pokemon that requires a strong understanding of team building, OU playstyles, and moveset trends for prediction. High risk and high reward; use wisely. If you're not going to utilize Cryogonal's unique role compression, stat spread, and tanking/stalling capabilities, it might not be a good fit for your team.
Summarized Advantages of Tera-Cryogonal
Removing pure Ice typing without removing the power of its STAB Ice moves is a godsend for Cryogonal, as it has nicely spread stats that heavily benefit from switching types while still keeping the potency of STAB Ice-type offense. In particular, I've found that making its Tera-type Steel or Ghost-type yields the most consistent results (for reasons I'll explain later in this post), while some more niche options have situational utility on Weather teams.
Having 80 / 135 Special Bulk is very useful (especially once Terastallized) alongside access to Recover for longevity and Heavy-Duty Boots for immunity to Stealth Rock (although if your goal is to Terastallize early, you can forgo Heavy-Duty Boots and replace them with Leftovers or another helpful item).
Role compression; Cryogonal is the only Pokemon with the unique combinations of the ability Levitate and the move Rapid Spin, along with the unique combination of Levitate and Recover (not to mention the ultra-unique combination of all three together). This, along with Cryogonal's limited but useful movepool and stat spread, allows it to occupy roles that other Pokemon in its position wish it could.
105 Speed means that Cryogonal is the second fastest spinner in OU (only being outsped by Iron Treads [which has 106 speed], which only outspeeds Timid Cryogonal if it's running a Jolly or otherwise Speed-boosting nature). Combined with a usable 95 Special Attack and great offensive options alongside the speed-boosting effect of Rapid Spin, Cryogonal sits in a relatively unique and powerful speed tier.
Great synergy with common OU team staples (especially Fire-types) that allow the player to patch up some annoying defensive and offensive holes in their team composition.
We'll go into more specifics as we dive into the analysis, so we'll first talk about the two sets that I've had the most consistent results with; Tera Steel and Tera Ghost -
Cryogonal's best Tera-type is, unequivocally, Steel type. While it maintains the nasty Fighting-type weakness, it gains a multitude of resistances that are vital for its specific role. In addition, thanks to its access to Levitate, Cryogonal does not have the crippling weakness to Ground-type moves that other Steel types have. You're probably thinking, "but wait, Morkal, if I wanted a bulky Steel type with Levitate, wouldn't I just use the other Pokemon that gets it, Bronzong, who is also physically bulky and doesn't require Terastallizing? Why shouldn't I use another bulky Pokemon to Terastallize with Levitate and STAB Ice coverage, like Rotom-Frost?" There are several notable reasons -
Cryogonal is significantly bulkier than both Bronzong and Rotom-Frost when it comes to Special Bulk. Bronzong has 67/116 Special Bulk, while Rotom-Wash has 50/107 Special Bulk. Cryogonal has 80/135 Special Bulk. In addition, Bronzong has a nasty weakness to Dark-type attacks such as Knock Off that Cryogonal does not have to worry about.
Cryogonal has access to Recover, meaning it can reliably heal itself. Unfortunately, Bronzong and all Rotom forms have no recovery options outside of Rest.
Cryogonal is quite a bit faster than any Rotom form and blazes past Bronzong, meaning that, if played right, Cryogonal will be able to OHKO specific threats that neither of them can reliably touch.
Cryogonal's base 95 SpA is more useful outside of Hail compared to Rotom-Frost's 105 SpA because Rotom-Frost only has Blizzard for Ice coverage, while Cryogonal has access to Freeze-Dry and Ice Beam (as well as Blizzard). Even if we were within Hail, Cryogonal has access to the coveted Aurora Veil and is the second fastest user of that move (only behind Frosslass).
Role Compression (having a spinner and special tank condensed to one slot is very useful). Rapid Spin for utility/hazard removal complements the specific yet deadly offensive coverage against notable OU threats that Bronzong can't even dream of.
So what does this set do, and why is Tera-Steel the best typing to use? Defensively, Tera-Steel crucially gives Cryogonal key resistances to two former weaknesses, Rock and Steel-type attacks. In addition, it gains valuable resistances to Normal, Flying, Bug, Grass, Psychic, Dragon, and Fairy type attacks while maintaining its original resistance to Ice-type attacks. Steel types weaknesses to Fire and Fighting-type attacks were shared with the Ice type beforehand, and the gained weakness to Ground is almost always irrelevant due to Levitate. Alongside this, Cryogonal gains a crucial Toxic immunity that increases its overall defensive longevity alongside making it a hard wall to most common Clodsire variants (including the common variant of Stealth Rock, Earthquake, Toxic, and Recover) and most Ting-Lu variants (including the common Double Hazard + Whirlwind with Earthquake variant). Cryogonal has little difficulty coming in on one of the most common Gen 9 leads, Glimmora. Once Terastallized, Cryogonal has immunity to Glimmora's STAB Poison attacks and resistance to STAB Power Gem, in addition to having an excellent immunity to its common Earth Power coverage move on offensive variants (alongside a nifty resistance to Energy Ball). Rapid Spin allows any Toxic Spikes that get set up to be cleared while boosting Cryogonal's speed instantly. Let's take a look at some damage calculations to give you an idea of Cryogonal's defensive and utility capabilities with its unique toolset and stats.
Special Defense
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Jugulis Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 99-117 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 75-89 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 84-100 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 76-90 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Cryogonal: 104-122 (34.5 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even with a paltry base 50 Defense, Cryogonal can survive more than you think once it Terastallizes with its new Steel typing.
I want to specify that, when it comes to offenses, Cryogonal is NOT meant to be an overwhelming powerhouse; it is intended to be a pesky and speedy tank that helps teams wear down critical threats over time while keeping your side of the field (along with itself) relatively healthy. Cryogonal has access to a potent offensive combination of STAB Freeze-Dry and Flash Cannon, the latter of which, once Terastallized, is a great STAB move that heavily dents Pokemon such as Grimmsnarl, Glimmora, Hatterene, Iron Valiant, and Tera-Fairy Espathra for Super Effective damage. Let's look at some damage calculations for Freeze-Dry and Flash Cannon.
Freeze-Dry
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 424-504 (100.9 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 222-264 (60 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 260-308 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 204-240 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 73.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Toxapex losing Scald means that it cannot hit Cryogonal with status, meaning it will be forced to switch).
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 186-218 (57.5 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 134-158 (28.9 - 34.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 3HKO (Cryogonal can outstall due to Rapid Spin's high PP and Clodsire's low Recover PP since most Clodsire variants cannot damage Cryogonal once Terastallized at all).
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 234-276 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Quaquaval: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 116-138 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (Cryogonal forces most Ting-Lu variants to switch or force it out with Whirlwind, allowing for a free Rapid Spin or you can predict and pull off a double switch, giving you additional momentum).
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 306-360 (70.5 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 278-330 (106.5 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO(only for predicted switch-ins, do not risk staying in on Mach Punch if you can help it).
Flash Cannon
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glimmora: 254-300 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 320-378 (110.7 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 206-246 (64.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grimmsnarl: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Garganacl, once chipped, cannot switch into Flash Cannon. Even if Garganacl switches in at full health, Flash Cannon's chance to lower Special Defense could mean that you have to once again switch it out).
252 SpA Tera Steel Cryogonal Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fairy Espathra: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tera-Ghost Cryogonal would arguably be the best form of Cryogonal if Knock Off wasn't a thing; sadly, it is, but that doesn't mean Cryoghost doesn't have unique advantages. For one [+ two], it now has three immunities (Normal, Fighting, Ground), giving it a unique simultaneous offensive and defensive profile for a Ghost-type Pokemon (being fast, relatively strong, AND naturally specially bulky; something Gholdengo and Skeledirge cannot lay claim to without serious investment). In addition, the combination of Ice and Ghost STAB offense is equally as potent, thanks to STAB Tera Blast. Let's take a look at some damage calculations for Tera Blast and see just what it can do -
Tera Blast (Ghost)
252 SpA Tera Ghost Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 206-246 (64.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Ghost Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 266-314 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (High Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Tera Ghost Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espathra: 320-378 (81.2 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (High Chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock)
252 SpA Tera Ghost Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 228-270 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Ghost Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 210-248 (72.1 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Ghost Cryogonal Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 186-218 (45.2 - 53%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed 2HKO with Stealth Rock)
Defensively, Cryogonal's new Fighting immunity allows it to handle Pokemon such as Breloom and gives it immunity to some key threats (such as the potent STAB combination of Choice-locked Great Tusks' Fighting/Ground type coverage). Other than switching some offensive and defensive roles, Cryoghost is similar in function to Cryosteel.
Cryogonal Partners
As Cryogonal fits into a relatively specific type of team, it's essential to understand what it synergizes well with. So we'll go over Pokemon that I've found to be reliable partners for both the Tera-Steel set and the Tera-Ghost set, along with brief summaries of why they work well together. I won't be going over all of them, just the ones that I've had consistent success pairing Cryogonal with (there are quite a few that pair well with both Cryogonal variants, not just one or the other).
Ceruledge, Dondozo, Garganacl, Great Tusk, Iron Moth, Orthworm, Pelipper, Roaring Moon
Ceruledge
Ceruledge is a great partner for Cryogonal (specifically the Cryosteel variant) because of three key factors - Flash Fire (Fire Immunity + STAB Fire Power Boost), Half Ghost-type (Fighting immunity), and can generally outspeed and handle Pokemon that give Cryosteel trouble. Ceruledge has been getting more attention lately and will likely continue to garner attention with the Chi-Yu ban.
Dondozo
Dondozo is a somewhat divisive Pokemon with surprising set variety, given its relatively limited movepool. Thanks to its pure Water typing, fantastic HP stat, and excellent physical bulk alongside STAB Liquidation and access to Body Press, Dondozo can handle several notable switch-ins for the Cryosteel variant quite comfortably if you play it right.
Garganacl
I don't need to tell you how much of a monster this thing is - it's rockin' knockin' salt curin' body pressin' self-healin' keyboard breakin' Garganacl, an absolute unit of a Pokemon that is already considered suspect-worthy by some people (even before the trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar). It's bulky as hell, strong as hell, and ultimately sits on a good portion of the OU meta right now.
GreatTusk
Ground/Fighting is a fantastic STAB combination, and thus Great Tusk is excellent at picking off Pokemon that give both variants of Cryogonal trouble. Great Tusk is physically tanky, has high attack, great moves, usable speed, and can also pair with Cryogonal for a double Rapid Spin synergy that works quite well in the long game (along with patching its speed issues).
Iron Moth
Iron Moth is nuts; if they had actually given this thing Quiver Dance, it would have likely been quick-banned to Ubers alongside Flutter Mane. Fire/Poison typing is potent offensively and, in some cases, defensively. Iron Moth can often get an opportunity to set up an Agility or fire off a powerful attack after it switches in.
Orthworm
"Look at those beady little eyes; he's got that thousand-yard stare!"
- Dallas Wanamaker, Ratchet: Deadlocked
A great physically defensive pure-Steel type that can handle several threats that plague both variants of Cryogonal. In addition, if you're able to pass Shed Tail to Cryogonal, it can provide a much-needed opportunity for Cryogonal to dent something hard with one of its various STAB attacks.
Pelipper
I've always loved this guy, even before Gen 7 bestowed Drizzle upon it, dooming one of my other favorite Pokemon (
) to relative obscurity once again. Pelipper setting rain not only weakens the Fire-type onslaught that plagues Cryosteel but can be an excellent switch-in for various Physical threats (especially Physical Fire and Fighting-types) that Cryosteel does not want to tangle with.
RoaringMoon
This thing scares me, but it's also a fantastic partner for both the Cryoghost and Cryosteel variants. Dragon/Dark is a tremendous offensive and defensive combination that can use the opportunity to switch in and set up. Utilizing this combination in the late game puts considerable pressure on your opponent, especially with a chipped or status'd team.
Conclusion
Cryogonal is one of those Pokemon I think has always been egregiously underestimated by the player base due to some of its notable detracting qualities. However, with the advent of the recent trifecta banning of three critical threats that gave it some serious issues, I can confidently recommend Cryogonal. Thanks to Cryogonal's combination of an excellent ability in Levitate, Terastallization fixing its Defensive typing, a small but viciously specific movepool, and solid overall stats, Cryogonal has a specific but strong niche in OU. Thanks for reading; I hope you're having as much fun with the Gen 9 OU meta as I currently am!
This was my 420th post on the forum; nice.
Edit #1: Grammatical/Spelling Issues + A Bonehead Moveset Blunder Fixed (Thanks to The2009Zapdos for catching it!)
I forgot to talk about this earlier, but cases like Cyrogonal here help illustrate why I think keeping Tera is going to be a net positive for the game going forward. While Dynamax largely benefited sweepers that were already good, a Pokémon with unique attributes and its own role to fill but held back by its typing has been able to shine in OU for the first time thanks to the nuances of Tera.
Who knows what other Pokémon are waiting to be rediscovered? I hope to see more diamonds in the rough like Cyro in the future.
Just a heads up, a new set of SV OU Sample Teams are up to keep up with the new wave of bans. Please check them out.
A big s/o to everyone that works hard to bring teams for all of us to enjoy. Please go to the SV OU RMT subforum to give some love to a few of the teams. Also a massive s/o to all of the OU Room staff and particularly Mimikyu Stardust for always updating all of this stuff.
Just a heads up, a new set of SV OU Sample Teams are up to keep up with the new wave of bans. Please check them out.
A big s/o to everyone that works hard to bring teams for all of us to enjoy. Please go to the SV OU RMT subforum to give some love to a few of the teams. Also a massive s/o to all of the OU Room staff and particularly Mimikyu Stardust for always updating all of this stuff.
There won't be since they usually happen on Monday but the bans happened just yesterday. The new samples have 6 new teams though, 3 from the RMT subforum, 1 posted in the bazaar, and 2 more from Storm Zone so I hope that's enough for this week.
I forgot to talk about this earlier, but cases like Cyrogonal here help illustrate why I think keeping Tera is going to be a net positive for the game going forward. While Dynamax largely benefited sweepers that were already good, a Pokémon with unique attributes and its own role to fill but held back by its typing has been able to shine in OU for the first time thanks to the nuances of Tera.
Who knows what other Pokémon are waiting to be rediscovered? I hope to see more diamonds in the rough like Cyro in the future.
On that note, when I was looking at pokemon similar to Garganacl the other day, there was actually one that really stood out to me:
Obviously, Garg is better, at least on a traditional team, but it's got 108 / 112 / 72 bulk, Slack Off, and some options that make it more like Ting-Lu in Whirlwind and stab EQ. I don't know if there's a place for it while those two are still both in the tier, but that combination of traits seems pretty good for where we're headed.
I think it's fair to say Gen 9 OU has been fairly "action-packed" from a tiering perspective. Flutter and Houndstone got banned like 3 days after release, Palafin and Bundle were booted like 5 days after that, shortly thereafter there was the Tera suspect which took up the entire month of December, and then as soon as that ended we saw the most recent wave of quick bans. Currently, there are still a few controversial elements in the meta--namely Chien, Garg, and Espathra--but none of them were super close to getting support for a quick ban and I don't think that's going to change spontaneously. With that said, I think we're about to see a period of relative stability, as SPL and OST are right around the corner and I don't think anything is gonna be identified as outright broken unless it gains traction in one of those arenas.
Honestly, though, I wouldn't be surprised if we're just done with quick bans pre-Home. Whatever is next on the chopping block may very well be more fit for a suspect test than a quick ban unless it ends up drastically warping the SPL/OST meta in an unhealthy way. I don't think anyone enjoys the suspect process all that much, so I'm in no rush to see one happen, but personally I do see potential for Chien-Pao or Garganacl to reach that level of brokenness warranting a suspect.
Of course this is all just speculation, but to encourage some more discussion on how OU will be tiered going forward in the pre-Home meta, I'll end off with a question. So far, the list of Pokemon that have appear On the Radar but not been banned includes:
Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Garganacl, Dragonite, and Espathra
Is there any Pokemon not on this list that you think has potential to be banned to Ubers? In the Tera suspect thread anti-Tera arguments often cited Kingambit, Volcarona, and Dragapult as some of the Pokemon that would ultimately need to be banned if Tera remained unrestricted (and it did). Do you buy that? Or are there any other Pokemon that have gone under the radar thus far that you think will need to be looked at later on?
With that said, I think we're about to see a period of relative stability, as SPL and OST are right around the corner and I don't think anything is gonna be identified as outright broken unless it gains traction in one of those arenas.
On that note, when I was looking at pokemon similar to Garganacl the other day, there was actually one that really stood out to me:
Obviously, Garg is better, at least on a traditional team, but it's got 108 / 112 / 72 bulk, Slack Off, and some options that make it more like Ting-Lu in Whirlwind and stab EQ. I don't know if there's a place for it while those two are still both in the tier, but that combination of traits seems pretty good for where we're headed.
i can see it working if more sand abusers ever come back, but not as of right now. sure, it's one of the only mons that you can feasibly run tera rock on without ending up on a "worst sets of 2023" compilation video, but i wouldn't compare it to ting and garg. those mons aren't just good because of their bulk and movepools, they also have some of the strongest abilities in the game, which happen to work extremely well with their base stat spreads. sand stream is disruptive against weather teams but aside from that it doesn't do anything for hippowdon itself besides causing chip damage to the opponent. (if it got shore up like it fucking should have since gen 7, maybe things would be different.) weather abilities also need strong abusers to succeed, and the only good sand abuser got taken behind the shed and newbery-medal'd 3 days into the meta. hippo and ttar are both solutions looking for a problem—they're fantastic sand setters, but they have no solid sand abusers to back them up. it's basically the opposite problem that snow has
I think it's fair to say Gen 9 OU has been fairly "action-packed" from a tiering perspective. Flutter and Houndstone got banned like 3 days after release, Palafin and Bundle were booted like 5 days after that, shortly thereafter there was the Tera suspect which took up the entire month of December, and then as soon as that ended we saw the most recent wave of quick bans. Currently, there are still a few controversial elements in the meta--namely Chien, Garg, and Espathra--but none of them were super close to getting support for a quick ban and I don't think that's going to change spontaneously. With that said, I think we're about to see a period of relative stability, as SPL and OST are right around the corner and I don't think anything is gonna be identified as outright broken unless it gains traction in one of those arenas.
Honestly, though, I wouldn't be surprised if we're just done with quick bans pre-Home. Whatever is next on the chopping block may very well be more fit for a suspect test than a quick ban unless it ends up drastically warping the SPL/OST meta in an unhealthy way. I don't think anyone enjoys the suspect process all that much, so I'm in no rush to see one happen, but personally I do see potential for Chien-Pao or Garganacl to reach that level of brokenness warranting a suspect.
Of course this is all just speculation, but to encourage some more discussion on how OU will be tiered going forward in the pre-Home meta, I'll end off with a question. So far, the list of Pokemon that have appear On the Radar but not been banned includes:
Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Garganacl, Dragonite, and Espathra
Is there any Pokemon not on this list that you think has potential to be banned to Ubers? In the Tera suspect thread anti-Tera arguments often cited Kingambit, Volcarona, and Dragapult as some of the Pokemon that would ultimately need to be banned if Tera remained unrestricted (and it did). Do you buy that? Or are there any other Pokemon that have gone under the radar thus far that you think will need to be looked at later on?
I think Dragapult is a good one to keep an eye on. Really just similar issues to what made it obnoxious last generation. I don't know about Volcarona or Kingambit. I haven't seen anything too problematic from them. I think they are great mons but have considerable counterplay.
i wanted to try tinkaton. its stats suck, but man its utility is undeniable and it checks some really cool things **garganacl** (one of imo, if not the most threatening mon currently on team preview up there with chien-pao and gholdengo)
Tinkaton @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 200 SpD / 24 Spe
Careful Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
Mold Breaker allows tinkaton to status gholdengo and garganacl which invalidates garganacl 9/10 times except for the eq sets with covert cloak. it helps against certain gholdengo sets specifically bulky gholdengo, but scarf is scary. 32 Atk EVs are able to 0hko offensive glimmora (focus sash you need to play around differently) and tinkaton is pretty tanky on the special side, able to tank an earth power.
furthermore, specs dragapult is checked by tinkaton because of knock off/gigaton guaranteeing a 2hko, and dragapult being scared of thunder wave. it can also check chien-pao. Sacred Sword which is the only move chien-pao generally runs that hits tinkaton for neutral damage only 3hkos this.
Glimmora Calcs:
32 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora: 308-366 (100.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Tinkaton: 214-252 (57.2 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Garganacl Calcs:
32 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 228 Def Garganacl: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chien-Pao Calcs:
32 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 342-404 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tinkaton: 154-182 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
summary: it serves a niche role as a knocker, twave user and rocker. gigaton hammer is an insane stab move too which can absolutely ruin some things.
here's a team i built around this, if anyone has anything to add or any feedback that'd be cool but wanted to make a contribution to this thread rather than shitposting!
I forgot to talk about this earlier, but cases like Cyrogonal here help illustrate why I think keeping Tera is going to be a net positive for the game going forward. While Dynamax largely benefited sweepers that were already good, a Pokémon with unique attributes and its own role to fill but held back by its typing has been able to shine in OU for the first time thanks to the nuances of Tera.
Who knows what other Pokémon are waiting to be rediscovered? I hope to see more diamonds in the rough like Cyro in the future.
Thank you so much for the kind words about my Cryogonal post! In all honesty, most of the reason why I absolutely love Gen 9's overall competitive meta is because of Terastallization and the freedom it has given me and many others in team building. Someone earlier in the thread brought up how much faster things are being banned/voted on in Gen 9, and I think that's one of the biggest signs of a healthy, diverse meta. So many Pokemon have had new life breathed into them by sheer virtue of being able to change their typing. Whereas in Gen 8 and 7 (especially 7), it felt like everything was wrapped around particular cores to a suffocating point (without being broken in of itself), so the only things that would get the ol' Uber scoot quickly were things that pretty much everyone recognized as broken such as Deoxys-N and Shaymin-Sky.
Long story short, I'm having more fun in Generation 9 than I've had since I first started playing competitive Pokemon over a decade ago. So in the spirit of that, I'd like to pose three questions for all of you!
1. Chien-Pao or Garganacl? Do you think they're broken, just one of them, or none of them?
2. Have you used any Sub-OU Pokemon in OU so far in this generation? If you have, was it because of Terastallization or another reason?
3. With the recent trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar, do you expect any archetypes to make a resurgence, such as Sand? Do you expect any Pokemon to rise up from any lower tier into OU?
1. Chien-Pao or Garganacl? Do you think they're broken, just one of them, or none of them?
2. Have you used any Sub-OU Pokemon in OU so far in this generation? If you have, was it because of Terastallization or another reason?
3. With the recent trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar, do you expect any archetypes to make a resurgence, such as Sand? Do you expect any Pokemon to rise up from any lower tier into OU?
1. I feel like Chien-Pao is way scarier than Garg. Sure, Garganacl is a pain in the ass to deal with cause of Tera and Salt Cure, but if you have the right offensive threat on the field you can play around it or even OHKO it. Specs Iron Valiant, Banded Moon, Specs Moth with Energy Ball, Gholdengo and many other wallbreakers can mess it up real bad, and if you run Covert Cloak in any of your mons you obviously wall it forever. Pao on the other end feels like a nuke and it's an immediate threat, so you always gotta be careful. This does not mean that Garg is not dangerous on its own, but between the two I'd rather face a Garg.
2. I've used a couple of UU mons for fun, mainly Sandy Shocks, Slither Wing, Gastrodon and Wo-Chien, and they've all benefitted immensely from Terastallization. Sandy Shocks loves to Tera Ice for opposing ground types, Slither Wing's Flare Blitz or Acrobatics hit like crazy in the sun after Terastallizing, and offensive Wo-Chien is a funny meme set I've tried that has actually worked thanks to Tera Fire. Overall, lower tier mons feel way more solid thanks to the fact that you can change their typings. Btw I would LOVE to try Tera Steel or Tera Poison Hydreigon in the future, so again I'm very hyped about some mons that aren't currently in OU.
3. I'm not really sure about this one, but I think that Snow has a chance to resurge now that neither Chi-Yu nor Annihilape with Drain Punch are around to threaten Ice types (specifically Baxcalibur, which we all know is the big boss of Snow teams). I could see some mons rising up in usage during the next weeks, specifically Pelipper, Slowking and Magnezone, but I guess we'll have to see.
I've used a fair bit of Coalossal thanks to terastal allowing you to throw its shitty typing away. It has great bulk, two fantastic abilities in Flash Fire and Flame Body depending on the tera type chosen, Rapin Spin alongside a Fire STAB to hit Gholdengo, and the ability to toss spikes around. I liked using Water Tera with Flame Body while Palafin was around, and Steel Tera with Flash Fire looks interesting (immune to both of Iron Moth's STABs funnily enough). The lack of recovery is really sad for it though. I'm admittedly pretty crap at this game though so I have no idea how it fares against players other than low ladder goons.
On that note, when I was looking at pokemon similar to Garganacl the other day, there was actually one that really stood out to me:
Obviously, Garg is better, at least on a traditional team, but it's got 108 / 112 / 72 bulk, Slack Off, and some options that make it more like Ting-Lu in Whirlwind and stab EQ. I don't know if there's a place for it while those two are still both in the tier, but that combination of traits seems pretty good for where we're headed.
Hippowdon has been a big comfort pick for me in a lot of teams throughout the generations, and I have been using it with moderate success this generation as well.
Sand without any abusers still functions pretty well as a great anti-meta tech with it removing Sun and chipping down on Dragonite.
Whirlwind wass especially great when Cyclizar was still around as you can phase things behind a Sub, and having reliable recovery alongside it allows you to consistently answer slow boosters like Dondozo, Corviknight and Body Press Garg.
Teraing into a type that is not naturally immune to Sand might be counterintuitive, but I actually like Water and Dark a lot. The former is just a solid defensive typing that Sun/Rain HO have a really hard time making progress against, whereas the latter just completely stops Grimmsnarl on Screens HO from proactively doing anything.
i wanted to try tinkaton. its stats suck, but man its utility is undeniable and it checks some really cool things **garganacl** (one of imo, if not the most threatening mon currently on team preview up there with chien-pao and gholdengo)
Tinkaton @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 200 SpD / 24 Spe
Careful Nature
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
Mold Breaker allows tinkaton to status gholdengo and garganacl which invalidates garganacl 9/10 times except for the eq sets with covert cloak. it helps against certain gholdengo sets specifically bulky gholdengo, but scarf is scary. 24 Atk EVs are able to 0hko offensive glimmora (focus sash you need to play around differently) and tinkaton is pretty tanky on the special side, able to tank an earth power.
furthermore, specs dragapult is checked by tinkaton because of knock off/gigaton guaranteeing a 2hko, and dragapult being scared of thunder wave. it can also check chien-pao. Sacred Sword which is the only move chien-pao generally runs that hits tinkaton for neutral damage only 3hkos this.
Glimmora Calcs:
32 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora: 308-366 (100.3 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Glimmora Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Tinkaton: 214-252 (57.2 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Garganacl Calcs:
32 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 228 Def Garganacl: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chien-Pao Calcs:
32 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 342-404 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tinkaton: 154-182 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
summary: it serves a niche role as a knocker, twave user and rocker. gigaton hammer is an insane stab move too which can absolutely ruin some things.
here's a team i built around this, if anyone has anything to add or any feedback that'd be cool but wanted to make a contribution to this thread rather than shitposting!
Encore is also a great option and can force switches if they try and take you as too passive and try and set up/recover health. Honestly I've found more success with Encore over Stealth Rocks but the role compression with Rocks is kinda nice too.
1. Chien-Pao or Garganacl? Do you think they're broken, just one of them, or none of them?
2. Have you used any Sub-OU Pokemon in OU so far in this generation? If you have, was it because of Terastallization or another reason?
3. With the recent trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar, do you expect any archetypes to make a resurgence, such as Sand? Do you expect any Pokemon to rise up from any lower tier into OU?
i think chien-pao's pretty fucking absurd and ought to at least see a suspect. scouting it is easier than scouting chi-yu because pao basically only runs band and boots so if it takes hazard damage it's not a 50/50 like the fish was, but it's horrific to try and switch into, especially when most of its bad matchups become good matchups 20% of the time because crunch. garganacl is very good but i still don't want to call it broken, especially since people are finally figuring out that covert cloak exists and actually works outside of it (although it'll never get the credit it deserves because you can't see when it's blocking things). garganacl's main weakness besides covert cloak gholdengo is that it's probably the most tera-reliant mon in the meta. it becomes significantly more dealwithable if you can force your opponent to tera something else.
aside from stuff that really should be ou, like blissey and espathra, i've experimented with a couple mons that i refuse to reveal because if they catch on and start gaining usage then i won't be able to steamroll tier shift with them when it comes out. cryogonal is one of them, but that cat's already out of the bag. i can tell you, though, that every single one is very reliant on tera to rid themselves of unfortunate typings.
i still don't think sand has much merit with the current lineup of abusers. we've got garg pre-tera, palossand, lycanroc and that's basically the whole list. i think trick room teams with orthworm as a bootleg cyclizar replacement might see some more usage, and of course stall is going to make a bit of a comeback. one of the pink blobs should rise back into ou now that they don't have to worry about being 2hko'd by a special attack or feeding annihilape anymore
Has anyone experimented with tera dark skeledirge? its probably worse than fairy, but in theory it would be a phenomenal answer to espathra while still handling mons like dnite + you're less weak to gholdengo.
Has anyone experimented with tera dark skeledirge? its probably worse than fairy, but in theory it would be a phenomenal answer to espathra while still handling mons like dnite + you're less weak to gholdengo.
For a couple games, yeah. The resistance to dark and ghost is really nice, but you need a good uturn punisher, since they end up stinging a lot more than without tera / with tera fairy. I think it has potential
1. Chien-Pao or Garganacl? Do you think they're broken, just one of them, or none of them?
2. Have you used any Sub-OU Pokemon in OU so far in this generation? If you have, was it because of Terastallization or another reason?
3. With the recent trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar, do you expect any archetypes to make a resurgence, such as Sand? Do you expect any Pokemon to rise up from any lower tier into OU?
1- I'm fine with Garganacl, as it's too reliant on Tera to be "broken", yet he's not a pokemon that can decide the whole match with a tera like any of the banned mons or remaining set-up sweepers, and having to spend tera on Garganacl makes you lose more than you gain imo.
Chien-Pao, though, I felt it was easier to deal with prior to the bans, but after playing a bit after them, it would seem I was just numb from the other broken stuff. He feels very ridiculous in power with CB and while he has more answers and counterplay than Chi-Yu, that's not much of an argument. Fully understand and agree with not Quick-banning it, but I don't think it can escape a suspect and could really end either way.
2- Just used Gardevoir a bit in the early days of mayhem because she's one of my favorite pokemons and we didn't have many fast, strong fairy types after Flutter Mane (she outspeeds and OHKOs Chien Pao and Dragapult with a scarf, and could take a non-CB attack with some physical bulk investment that I always run anyway), but barely ever got to Tera her. Most of the pokemons I like to use/experiment with, I'm satisfied with doing so in their own tiers, like how I was playing around with Ice Sandy Shocks before it was cool in early UU and so on.
Would've loved to play around Tera on OU with some of my other favorite pokemons like Latias, Togekiss, Chandelure or Aggron (specially Aggron, he desperately needed Tera), but GF had other plans for them -.-U
3- hard to tell. Could see defensive and bulky staples of OU like Magnezone, Blissey or even Slowbro come back with some of these bans, but really hard to tell. Rather than "stuff that was checked/stopped by those mons coming back", it's more an issue of what mons would try to replace the banned ones and what mons that checked them will fall in usage and what would replace those and so on. And Cyclizar and Annihilape had very specific traits that are too hard to replace, and we already have strong Fire users in OU to replace Chi-Yu, so honestly, maybe nothing changes too much.
