Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Ctann said:
Lol Chien pao might be less obviously broken than chi yu. Comparing the most problematic sets: choiced item - this is due to the immediate threat and lack ochoice specs chi yu to choice band chien pao:

- overheat is 52.9% stronger than icicle crash for immediate power

- overheat over 2 turns is 14.7% stronger than icicle crash over 2 turns

- chi yu could use fire as its dominant offensive STAB, this is due to the fire resists being 2hkoed and/or resisting dark pulse regardless. It was enough power to force recovery moves on specially defensive Pokémon like blissey and SpD roaring moon.

- chien pao relies on dark as its dominant stab, this then makes it a more predictable Tera dark user due to the 80BP not quite cutting the mustard against the 252/252 bold regenerator + 2nd resist strategy, where’s chi yu could easily not Tera over a game and still be 100% effective. If anything specs chi yu only needed to Tera “defensively” (more in later point).

- dark pulse is the same power as crunch, however the flinch is arguably more effective than the defense drop. Dark pulse also doesn’t make contact so it’s harder to wear down.


- Defensively, chien pao has the main perk of being able to survive extreme speed from dragonite, earthquakes from Garchomp, sucker punch from kingambit, etc. meanwhile chi yu could matchup into gholdengo/Volcarona/corviknight/sdirge and many many more Pokémon very easily.

- Tera fire, when used, often made chi yu better in key matchups, such as against standard iron valiant or when being used to switch into Volcarona. +2 252/0 Volcarona was still 2hkod by specs flamethrower, whilst it had difficulty 2hkoing back with its two most common moves.

- Tera dark is only good on chien pao in niche matchups, such as against body press. It also makes it less hazard removal support reliant, as it takes reduced damage from SR.

- possibly the biggest difference.. is that band chien pao can actually be checked/dealt with the classic 252/252 bold toxapex + any sturdy dark resist. Although that falls flat on its face against SD+ life orb chien pao, which will break past that. Nasty plot chi yu was less effective than SD chien pao, but it really didn’t need it when it’s specs set was so intense and dominant. SD chien pao can use Tera ghost/fairy/fighting/poison effectively to “guarantee” the +2 in critical matchups, it gets away with it due to the improved speed over chi yu, so it will actually threaten a sweep.

I think the thing is that Chien pao has the same effect, if less noticeable, of chi yu, I think we will see that a lot more. Even urshifu wasn’t as problematic.
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One key point in Chien-Pao's favor is its speed on its Band sets as that lets it clean up much more easily with Icicle Crash / Crunch. In the late game, when everything is moderately weakened, it can practically win games on its own (in fact, I'd say its the sole reason I won games I had no business winning otherwise). Chi-Yu could be revenge killed via something like Iron Valiant and Cinderace, but against a weakened team, a healthy Chien-Pao is practically all you need. Its quite similar to a queen piece, which can completely topple a weakened structure, but the level at which Chien-Pao needs the opposition weakened feels less than similar Pokemon like Dragapult and Iron Valiant. However, I would say that Specs Iron Valiant in particular feels like the more consistent Pokemon due to its moves not making contact, not being weak to SR, and being able to pressure some of its checks with good prediction.
 
one weird thing that I have noticed is that the pokemon ceruledge and armarouge aren't running weak armor any more.

what happened?

did people come to the conclusion that weak armor isn't good or they believe that flashfire is better?

EDIT: I see in pikalitics that this is mostly the case.
people are running flash fire on ceruledge 78% of the time.
on armarougue they seem to be preffering weak armour over flash fire 87% of the time.
 
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Chien-Pao’s banded sets are just insane. With Tera Dark, a Crunch or Throat chop 2HKOs Dozo after chip damage, whether that be hazards, or by firing your ice stab and than switching out, since the Dozo must burn both of its sleep turns in order to switch into it again. Chien-Pao can deal this crazy damage while also being really fast, limiting counterplay to scarfers and priority, both of which can be switched out of. The only switch in is Azumarill. Sure, running azu is not a bad thing but it means I am forced to use mons that synergies with azu
 
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Soiramio3000 said:
one weird thing that I have noticed is that the pokemon ceruledge and armarouge aren't running weak armor any more.

what happened?

did people come to the conclusion that weak armor isn't good or they believe that flashfire is better?

EDIT: I see in pikalitics that this is mostly the case.
people are running flash fire on ceruledge 78% of the time.
on armarougue they seem to be preffering weak armour over flash fire 87% of the time.
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If I had to hazard a guess? With Chi-yu being the apex predator up until yesterday with nukes in fire type stabs, a Fire immunity was an incredibly valuable tool.
 
Some times I am using a choice banded gallade as a wall breaker.
It can kill most OU walls with 1-2 strikes excpt from corviknight.

The movesets I am running are
-sacred sword
-psycho cut
-leaf blade
-ice punch.

Ice punch is meant for dragonite and garchomp.

I wish this pokemon was slightly faster.
 
The only mons that I believe are dumb right now are Chien Pao and Ghold
Ghold lost like all its counters and it can run dumb stuff and is 100% unpredictable atm.
Pao is fish lite and its only answers are prio and hoping it doesnt 2 tap you.

Everything else seems fine bar maybe Espa
 
What do you guys think of boots vs band on pao? I've been using bazaar teams (tysm to everyone who put effort into them, ily) and the pao i have uses boots, which gives a lot more longevity. as such, i tend to play more hit n run with it, dealing good damage and then swapping asap. It doesn't have as much killing power, hence why I use it to weaken a team and then cleaning up with iron valiant.

Also, while not very high or anything impressive, I've been hitting 1500s more often after being stuck on 1300s for a bit, which makes me feel a bit proud haha
 
Lemingue said:
What do you guys think of boots vs band on pao? I've been using bazaar teams (tysm to everyone who put effort into them, ily) and the pao i have uses boots, which gives a lot more longevity. as such, i tend to play more hit n run with it, dealing good damage and then swapping asap. It doesn't have as much killing power, hence why I use it to weaken a team and then cleaning up with iron valiant.

Also, while not very high or anything impressive, I've been hitting 1500s more often after being stuck on 1300s for a bit, which makes me feel a bit proud haha
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it truly depends on your hazard control core. chien-pao is extremely threatening, even without choice band, but having that immediate power can be nice for breaking capabilities. if your defensive core is something like great tusk and hatterene, running choice band is a great idea, but if you only have corviknight for hazard removal, you should lean more towards boots. at 1800+, it's more common for players to run boots over choice band.

with that being said though, even if rocks are up and you aren't running boots, chien-pao being limited to four switch-ins isn't so bad due to the raw power that it boasts. if you predict your opponent's switch-ins, that 25% chip from rocks isn't looking so bad.
 
xyeu said:
it truly depends on your hazard control core. chien-pao is extremely threatening, even without choice band, but having that immediate power can be nice for breaking capabilities. if your defensive core is something like great tusk and hatterene, running choice band is a great idea, but if you only have corviknight for hazard removal, you should lean more towards boots. at 1800+, it's more common for players to run boots over choice band.

with that being said though, even if rocks are up and you aren't running boots, chien-pao being limited to four switch-ins isn't so bad due to the raw power that it boasts. if you predict your opponent's switch-ins, that 25% chip from rocks isn't looking so bad.
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to expand on this, if you’re using band and are confident with the matchup, you can Tera-dark earlier in the matchup, this reduces the damage from SR as well and makes you less reliant on hazard removal.

Sure you reveal Tera early and lose the ability to defensively Tera on other Pokémon, so you need to be confident that you can deal with the opponents threats without type changing.
 
Wanted to pop in to share some thoughts and replays of E Terrain Iron Hands + Mixed E Belt Iron Valiant, per my earlier posts.

Here's the paste of the full team. If you want to try out manual terrain, the :Iron Hands: -:Iron Valiant:- :Iron Moth: Quark Drive core that I've got working here is just stupidly good offensively. I found a bunch of different options for rounding it out, but this has been my favorite.

Iron Hands is definitely the ideal terrain setter. It has the bulk to switch in and get terrain up reliably and the power to make good use of it on its own. CC defense drops and Wild Charge recoil both become features in terrain, letting you punch holes and die, leaving turns for your teammates to use if a hard switch feels too risky. From there, Valiant provides speed control and cleaning ability under terrain, while Moth provides raw breaking power.

One final note on team composition: a lot of my early struggles came down to trying to run a spinner instead of Corv (to avoid blowing away my own terrain). Turns out Defog is actually *not* counterproductive on this team. If you're switching to Corv, something has already gone wrong with your terrain sweep, and being able to reset the counter to try again can be really helpful!

So, with no further ado:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1765537290-pxklwtn8yile75766k2f6yg7phtsn12pw
No Terrain, but one good bit of Mixed Valiant action. 252 SpA Valiant doesn't have the juice on CC to protect against the switch with Moonblast on turn 5, even if it wasn't needed.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1765542584
As soon as Azumarill went out, there was no way for Valiant to lose this one.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1765676339
No Valiant, and a rough game for me, but shows off the absurdity of Iron Hands in terrain. Turn 14 was a minimum roll, y'all.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1768597668-ff7u0acc9lscyxk1huqhi4aq2a14q5fpw
E Terrain Tera Electric Wild Charge nuke/juke saves my bacon against Espathra (no clue why my opponent didn't just wipe the floor with me starting turn 6). Moth keeps the pressure on at the end.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1768308229-a3n2l2i3ao4rdslq22g98k2nrj9ko56pw
Terrain turns Valiant TBolt into a real weapon against Pex; Knock Off > Shadow Ball for Dengo

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1767655388
More Terrain + Expert Belt TBolt stunting to seal the deal.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1768587889
Garg does not like mixed Valiant. Dondozo does not like electric terrain.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1767596340
Terrain boost to speed forces Band Pao to lock into priority, giving me the win

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1767488347
This was a rematch, which explains their decision to go Tera Fairy on turn 4. I'd popped their Dirge with Tera Dark Knock Off the previous game, which I wound up losing to a surprise Fairy Dundunsparce at the end. Their early tera this game mitigated that, leaving plenty of room for mixed Valiant to clean up again.

These are all low-mid ladder (I tilted down into the 1300s trying to get another team working and then worked my way back up towards ~1600 with E Terrain and grabbed some replays on the way), but I'm a thoroughly mid-ladder player in OU, so take that as you will. All in all, I'm starting to really like this team -- maybe even enough to run it off of my meme team alt! -- and I hope other people do, too.

Note: a mix of Chomp sets in those replays (some rocks, some tera blast; some tera fire, some tera steel), but I am finding I'm pretty happy with Tera Steel in this role. Thanks, pika pal!
 
Soiramio3000 said:
it is not thaaaaaaat good.

I needed chi-yu so I could make a sticky web team.

there aren't any good nastyplot users out there any more.

edit: I accidentally typed chien-pao while I meant to say chi-yu.
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Well if its sticky web you need I know just the guy
1673413802328.png
 
Soiramio3000 said:
maybe I should have phrased it much differently.
it is a great pokemon but not the kind of pokemon that is so good that I want to include it on the majority of teams I make (like breloom and scizor).
thank god breloom is not on the radar.
I hope that smogon will not notice how amazing it is thanks to loaded dice.
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i genuinely can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not
 
I was struggling to find a good Stealth Rock user for my team that could also soak Special attacks that wasn't a passive blob and realized all roads lead back to Garganacl. I'm tempted to try SpD Iron Treads for a Stealth Rock with Volt Switch but every time I want to use rocks and I don't want Great Tusk my team gets a bit salty.
 
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Venduria said:
I was struggling to find a good Stealth Rock user for my team that could also soak Special attacks that wasn't a passive blob and realized all roads lead back to Garganacl. I'm tempted to try SpD Iron Treads for a Stealth Rock with Volt Switch but every time I want to use rocks and I don't want Great Tusk my team gets a bit salty.
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I mean there's also Ting Lu, it's pretty much the King when it comes to walling Special mons and setting Hazards. Its EQ also does quite some damage. But of course, you gotta pick the one that fits the best in your team.
 
yNot Mence said:
I mean there's also Ting Lu, it's pretty much the King when it comes to walling Special mons and setting Hazards. Its EQ also does quite some damage. But of course, you gotta pick the one that fits the best in your team.
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True, I didn't really consider Ting Lu all too much. I'll give it some thought, might be a better fit. I really wanted to try Eject Button Garganacl but that might be a bit TOO memey LMAO
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
i genuinely can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not
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I am not being sarcastic.
Which part seems like sarcasm?

Breloom's 150 base grass stab is amazing,it has the best sleep inducing move in the gane and a 60 base stab priority move.
It does not even need close combat in the fourt slot, 90 power buldoze is great at punishing switches.

And scizor is an amazing choice band user.
Choice band+steel tera+technician=120 power bullet punch.
It is guaranteed OHKO on grimsnarl.
 
Seeing the post about breloom has me wondering..

Has anyone had success with loaded dice, on any Pokémon?

breloom is one rock blast away from having it be a staple item, however it regrettably only has bullet seed to take advantage of.

maybe a DD baxcalibur could make the most of the 100-125 BP STAB move with icicle spear? Unfortunately it didn’t get scale shot.. or swords dance Bax would have been gen 8 garchomp lite

bombirdier with Tera rock STAB + rocky payload + 100-125 BP rock blast sounds kinda scary to be honest.. tho a meme at best with no great stats

roaring moon gets scale shot, tho it’s dragon stab doesn’t help it much vs it’s most common switch ins. And it’s a DD rather than SD user

very curious, it’s an interesting item and it’s really a shame gamefreak didn’t give Breloom 1-2 more multi hit moves to abuse the loaded dice + technician combo
 
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Ctann said:
Seeing the post about breloom has me wondering..

Has anyone had success with loaded dice, on any Pokémon?

breloom is one rock blast away from having it be a staple item, however it regrettably only has bullet seed to take advantage of.

maybe a DD baxcalibur could make the most of the 100-125 BP STAB move with icicle spear? Any other ideas?

bombirdier with Tera rock STAB + rocky payload + 100-125 BP rock blast sounds kinda scary to be honest.. tho a meme at best with no great stats

very curious, it’s an interesting item and it’s really a shame gamefreak didn’t give Breloom 1-2 more multi hit moves to abuse the loaded dice + technician combo
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I honestly don't see the appeal on Mons that have just one Multi Hit move. The same Baxcalibur with 4 hits has 100 power, but with 3 hits + Life Orb has 96,5, with 3 + Never Melt Ice has 90 , with 3 + Band has 112,5. Yes, 5 hits are a thing, but 3 (average of non dice) + boosting item it's still very close in terms of power. I prefer more variance but higher maximum power, it's not the same situation as Population Bomb without Wide Lens.
 
Eeveeto said:
I honestly don't see the appeal on Mons that have just one Multi Hit move. The same Baxcalibur with 4 hits has 100 power, but with 3 hits + Life Orb has 96,5, with 3 + Never Melt Ice has 90 , with 3 + Band has 112,5. Yes, 5 hits are a thing, but 3 (average of non dice) + boosting item it's still very close in terms of power. I prefer more variance but higher maximum power, it's not the same situation as Population Bomb without Wide Lens.
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yeah unfortunately to justify loaded dice really needs technician or maybe super luck as an ability and 2+ multi strike moves to be viable. Breloom having 150-187.5 base power STAB is kinda insane tho.. except for the fact that there are so many x4 grass resists in OU, and Breloom is possibly the slowest offensive threat in OU lol. It’s also definitely the weakest that comes to mind, can’t take a hit at all!
 
Eeveeto said:
I honestly don't see the appeal on Mons that have just one Multi Hit move. The same Baxcalibur with 4 hits has 100 power, but with 3 hits + Life Orb has 96,5, with 3 + Never Melt Ice has 90 , with 3 + Band has 112,5. Yes, 5 hits are a thing, but 3 (average of non dice) + boosting item it's still very close in terms of power. I prefer more variance but higher maximum power, it's not the same situation as Population Bomb without Wide Lens.
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The issue with multihit moves is if you get screwed over very badly if you only get two hits. That can completely change the course of a battle since your mon could take avoidable damage or straight up die. Loaded dice gives multi hit moves the ability to be consistent. That's where the appeal of the thing comes from. The overall damage output could be lower because you can't use another item but the consistency in that output makes it all the more worthwhile

Seriously, anyone who has used a scale shot Garchomp last gen would know how infuriating it is not to get a kill or tank an avoidable Landorus earthquake all because the thing just refuses to shoot more scales
 
what kind of sets do people run on iron treads? i never see it discussed or used on ladder but it seems to be getting enough usage to stay firmly ou anyways. great tusk is an obvious competitor but it's cool how it's a steel, can pivot, and has the same cool utility moves great tusk has. i'm curious how people use it
 
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