Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Chien-Pao is ridiculous and the only reason it hasn't been banned yet is because the tier was filled with Pokémon that were even more ridiculous due to the insane power creep this gen.
Even among the ridiculous Pokemon, I'd argue its still one of the strongest. There is very little traditional counterplay to it besides Rocky Helmet and Entry hazards chip, which certainly are effective against it, but require some prior setup and / or clever positioning. I'm not sure if this is a noob strat or not, but lead Chien-Pao is still quite scary to deal with for several entry hazard setters like Great Tusk and Garchomp due to it being difficult to switch into + 30% Icicle Crash flinch rate and can force a premeptive Tera on the opponent's side, which can be capitalized by Chien Pao's partners who may struggle in these match-ups. In the late game, banded Chien-Pao is arguably one of the best and most reliable cleaners in the game, as it is effortlessly able to slice through most of the tier with banded Icicle crashes or Crunches. The pool of Pokemon able to outspeed it is also quite small, limited to certain scarfers and Dragapult, most of which either don't want to switch into Chien-Pao or are weak to its priority attackers.
 

AndViet

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Chien-Pao is ridiculous and the only reason it hasn't been banned yet is because the tier was filled with Pokémon that were even more ridiculous due to the insane power creep this gen.
This was my thoughts exactly, but I feel like now people will start seeing Chien-Pao (especially combined with tera abuse) can be really annoying to take care of.
 
1. Chien-Pao or Garganacl? Do you think they're broken, just one of them, or none of them?

2. Have you used any Sub-OU Pokemon in OU so far in this generation? If you have, was it because of Terastallization or another reason?

3. With the recent trifecta ban of Annihilape, Chi-Yu, and Cyclizar, do you expect any archetypes to make a resurgence, such as Sand? Do you expect any Pokemon to rise up from any lower tier into OU?[/B]
1. Personally think Chien is scarier. From my experience Chien's moveset alone with a life orb build is occasionally enough to sweep an entire team, but I don't think it is completely unmanageable either. There are a few really solid answers to both of these mons that just aren't commonly used like Lucario with Vac Wave or specs/scarf Glimmora. Breloom is also a solid answer to both, but against Chien you're taking a pretty significant risk on the mach punch vs ice shard matchup. Overall I think Chien is definitely sitting on the border between OU and uber if for nothing else than his ability just like Chi-Yu. They really should have made Ting and Wo reduce def and sp def instead but oh well.

2. I was using Specs Analytic Magnezone for a while as a hard counter to Annihilape. Flying tera type let him OHKO tusk and annihilape, flash cannon helped deal with Garganacl, and thunderbolt deals decently well against Dondozo and Corviknight. I've been using Gallade recently as a wall breaker. Gallade has slightly worse stats than Valiant (most notably the awful base speed stat) but gets access to bulk up and a few actual abilities as well. Also think Wo-Chien is pretty underrated. The passive ATK lowering is pretty significant in the current meta, and it gets a variety of weird moves that makes it a pretty bulky special attacker, a counter lead, or just a staller in general. Ghost tera on him is also incredibly good since you resist the 4x weakness to bug and the fighting weakness.

3. Overall just been facing a lot of generally bulky semi-stall teams recently. I think if anything moves to OU it will be something that can effectively make use of grass tera type or special grass moves. There aren't many grass options right now and there are a lot of Dondozo, Garganacl, and washing machines running around. I have recently even lost games to Scovillain because it has a really strong typing given the current Pokemon pool.
 
I know this is not in the theme but since I am curious about Hisuan pokemon, honestly when I saw Hisuan Arcanine I literraly said "Oh such a shame that a so good looking pokemon is such trash, Fire/Rock even if good offensively is one of the worst type defensively and he is a little slower than arcanine (even if 90 speed is still a correct speed).

But then I saw that he obtain rock head and I realised that he is the best rock head user and will be UU material, for me all the rock head user has two major problem that ruins their potential, first except Aerodactyl they are very slow and even if some tactic like trick room exist, this is still very hard to use them as they require a lot of placement and the other is that they have a very bad movepool who goes well with this like Aerodactyl who doesn't have head smash or the pokemon who have just one attack who benefit from this ability like Marowak or Tyrantrum but Hisuan Arcanine has the best movepool for the ability with head smash,flare blitz, wild charge and double edge (even if this one will be never used because of extreme speed) and has decent speed of 90 which can be used has a scarf or a band can be very powerful, really one of the most disastrous pokemon of the Hisuan version become a future top UU threat.
 
if chien-pao gets banned, do you guys think we'd see much more usage of ting-lu? just asking because I've barely seen any discussion on it in a while, probably because chien-pao is such a domineering threat
 
if chien-pao gets banned, do you guys think we'd see much more usage of ting-lu? just asking because I've barely seen any discussion on it in a while, probably because chien-pao is such a domineering threat
I think Ting-Lu is already being used a lot. We may see a small rise but I don't think it suddenly becomes a top 3 mon. Actually maybe an argument could be made, there's Dragapult, Gholdengo, Great Tusk as my clear top 3 with Iron Valiant Roaring Moon and Ting Lu as my next candidates post Chien Pao I guess.

The last point of this post in the Viability thread makes me wonder if Tyranitar might want to try running Ice Beam on its offensive sets as a lure option (Not a disagreement with the drop persay but something I want to propose for potential discussion). Even univested, it can do a sizeable chunk to Great Tusk, potentially 2HKO Defensive Leftovers Variants with a layer of Spikes or a solid chance against HDB variants, and max-Speed Neutral Ttar outspeeds defensive Tusk to secure such (offensive outspeeds but could be identified by damage rolls since 0 HP vs 252 HP only overlap roll range by like 0.8%) as a potential lure tech given Tusk is a massive presence. One other side benefit is hitting Tankchomp for 67-80% without any contact recoil that Crunch risks for a 2HKO.

I don't expect this to suddenly avert Ttar's tumbling down in usefulness without Sand buddies, but it makes me wonder if he or other mons are sleeping on the potential of Special Lure moves for Great Tusk the same way a lot of mons would throw one in for Lando-T (Tusk lacks the double weakness but does have the dumpier SpD stat that, while still bulky overall, keeps special moves as a concern on non-AV sets). Not like the big wheel lacks presence to justify moves-mostly-for-him on potentially-checked targets.
I wasn't expecting one of my topics to get cross posted. I think lure sets are pretty cool but I struggle to see what else Ice Beam lures other than those 2. They're pretty important but it seems like a very specific lure for an inconsistent Pokemon you wouldn't want to bring in the first place. You're also constricting yourself to have to have your team comfortable with Sand up which kinda sucks.

With a neutral nature you need 80 SpA EVs to guarantee 2HKO on Defensive Tusk with Lefties and Stealth Rocks. This also means you can't run -SpA and have to go Lonely or Hasty. At that point I might just rather use Hippowdon for Sand or, well, something else entirely.
 
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A Tera poison Garg won a VGC championship, makes me wonder if it would be as good on singles. The main benefit I can think is being able to wall both Iron Valiant stabs, which is one of the few ways to 2hko Garg. It becomes weak to Tusk and Treads, but since Garg is used with Corvi anyway I think it might have potential.
 
A Tera poison Garg won a VGC championship, makes me wonder if it would be as good on singles. The main benefit I can think is being able to wall both Iron Valiant stabs, which is one of the few ways to 2hko Garg. It becomes weak to Tusk and Treads, but since Garg is used with Corvi anyway I think it might have potential.
Great Tusk isn't nearly as good in VGC as it is in Singles, it's not even in the top 15 mons by usage. So I doubt Garg would benefit much from Tera poison, besides being better at walling Iron Valiant, as you said.
 
I think Ting-Lu is already being used a lot. We may see a small rise but I don't think it suddenly becomes a top 3 mon. Actually maybe an argument could be made, there's Dragapult, Gholdengo, Great Tusk as my clear top 3 with Iron Valiant Roaring Moon and Ting Lu as my next candidates post Chien Pao I guess.



I wasn't expecting one of my topics to get cross posted. I think lure sets are pretty cool but I struggle to see what else Ice Beam lures other than those 2. They're pretty important but it seems like a very specific lure for an inconsistent Pokemon you wouldn't want to bring in the first place. You're also constricting yourself to have to have your team comfortable with Sand up which kinda sucks.

With a neutral nature you need 80 SpA EVs to guarantee 2HKO on Defensive Tusk with Lefties and Stealth Rocks. This also means you can't run -SpA and have to go Lonely or Hasty. At that point I might just rather use Hippowdon for Sand or, well, something else entirely.
Honestly the reasons you bring up are why I delve into the point at the end questioning other users for Special lure moves even though I doubt it does much good for Ttar in particular (only thought that in particular because Fire Punch with Tera Fire didn't seem like it'd get much mileage in OU anyway, at least so much as to be the lynchpin of an offensive set)
 
Great Tusk isn't nearly as good in VGC as it is in Singles, it's not even in the top 15 mons by usage. So I doubt Garg would benefit much from Tera poison, besides being better at walling Iron Valiant, as you said.
Paradox Pokémon were ilegal for this period in VGC, it uses tera poison because fighting types are strong there and also Meowscarada so tera water wasn't an option. Fairy is also a bad pick there because Gholdengo is the most used Pokémon in doubles.
 
Great Tusk isn't nearly as good in VGC as it is in Singles, it's not even in the top 15 mons by usage. So I doubt Garg would benefit much from Tera poison, besides being better at walling Iron Valiant, as you said.
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 180 HP / 76 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail

76 Atk Tera Poison Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 254-300 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

If you forgo Stealth Rocks you guarantee kill after a layer of Spikes, which it can set itself. Could be interesting tech tbh, it also means you aren't completely dead weight against Grimmsnarl. A little extra Atk Investment and you OHKO if they try and taunt you before Reflect predicting you set up hazards.

76 Atk Tera Poison Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 324-384 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Food for thought anyway. I don't think it's terrible as a lure and has enough utility to be considered.

EDIT Tera Poison also let's you remove Toxic Spikes with a winning matchup against all Toxic Spikes users unless I'm completely blanking on one.

EDIT 2 I read Garg and thought Gar as in Garchomp. Disregard, unless... :wo::woo::woop:
 
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Paradox Pokémon were ilegal for this period in VGC, it uses tera poison because fighting types are strong there and also Meowscarada so tera water wasn't an option. Fairy is also a bad pick there because Gholdengo is the most used Pokémon in doubles.
I completely forgot about the fact that they were illegal, but stil, Great Tusk is way too popular in Singles.
 
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 180 HP / 76 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Spikes
- Dragon Tail

76 Atk Tera Poison Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 254-300 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

If you forgo Stealth Rocks you guarantee kill after a layer of Spikes, which it can set itself. Could be interesting tech tbh, it also means you aren't completely dead weight against Grimmsnarl. A little extra Atk Investment and you OHKO if they try and taunt you before Reflect predicting you set up hazards.

76 Atk Tera Poison Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 324-384 (82.2 - 97.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Food for thought anyway. I don't think it's terrible as a lure and has enough utility to be considered.

EDIT Tera Poison also let's you remove Toxic Spikes with a winning matchup against all Toxic Spikes users unless I'm completely blanking on one.
Mhh I think you got the wrong person
 
I completely forgot about the fact that they were illegal, but stil, Great Tusk is way too popular in Singles.
Great Tusk feels like the Lando T of this generation, he's extremely popular and can fill 10 different roles on a team but he has very clear weaknesses and doesn't feel super restrictive on teambuilding despite all that. Plus, I imagine a large part of his high usage rate is people attempting to deal with gholdengo hazard stack spam in any way possible.
 
it is not thaaaaaaat good.

I needed chien pao so I could make a sticky web team.

there aren't any good nastyplot users out there any more.
Ohhh, you mean Chi-Yu. Yeah, just read anything else about it in the thread and you’ll see why we all hate it.

In other news, does he know?
46CD6813-CCC1-4D46-8047-69F2F23E756B.jpeg


Otherwise, to add substance to this post, I’ve been enjoying SubPlot Gholdengo and Covert Cloak Dondozo. SubPlot Dengo sits on every Nacl variant and can easily waste a Tera. Cloak on Dozo not only lets you take on Nacl with ease, but also makes it so you just sit on Chien-Pao because now it can’t fish for the Crunch defense drop. I like how Dengo is a nice “Jack of all trades” pokemon since it can fit many roles and on many teams. I don’t think it’s broken, though. (Also I don’t think Nacl is broken, just annoying) (maybe an in-depth Nacl post coming up?)
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Ohhh, you mean Chi-Yu.
yes I meant chi-yu, I edited my comment to correct that mistake.
I’ve been enjoying SubPlot Gholdengo and Covert Cloak Dondozo.
I can't afford to run nasty plot on gholdengo in a sticky web team because this pokemon's role is to prevent the enemy from removing the hazards.
do you know any other pokemon that can block defog? because I don't.
also I have no idea how is dondozo with any way related to the fact that the sticky web teams are useless now due to lack of viable nasty plot users.
 

Soiramio3000

Banned deucer.
Chien is not thattttttttttt good. I agree with you. Let’s send it under bottom 20 so it’s avoids the radar okay?
maybe I should have phrased it much differently.
it is a great pokemon but not the kind of pokemon that is so good that I want to include it on the majority of teams I make (like breloom and scizor).
thank god breloom is not on the radar.
I hope that smogon will not notice how amazing it is thanks to loaded dice.
 
Lol Chien pao might be less obviously broken than chi yu. Comparing the most problematic sets: choiced item - this is due to the immediate threat and lack ochoice specs chi yu to choice band chien pao:

- overheat is 52.9% stronger than icicle crash for immediate power

- overheat over 2 turns is 14.7% stronger than icicle crash over 2 turns

- chi yu could use fire as its dominant offensive STAB, this is due to the fire resists being 2hkoed and/or resisting dark pulse regardless. It was enough power to force recovery moves on specially defensive Pokémon like blissey and SpD roaring moon.

- chien pao relies on dark as its dominant stab, this then makes it a more predictable Tera dark user due to the 80BP not quite cutting the mustard against the 252/252 bold regenerator + 2nd resist strategy, where’s chi yu could easily not Tera over a game and still be 100% effective. If anything specs chi yu only needed to Tera “defensively” (more in later point).

- dark pulse is the same power as crunch, however the flinch is arguably more effective than the defense drop. Dark pulse also doesn’t make contact so it’s harder to wear down.


- Defensively, chien pao has the main perk of being able to survive extreme speed from dragonite, earthquakes from Garchomp, sucker punch from kingambit, etc. meanwhile chi yu could matchup into gholdengo/Volcarona/corviknight/sdirge and many many more Pokémon very easily.

- Tera fire, when used, often made chi yu better in key matchups, such as against standard iron valiant or when being used to switch into Volcarona. +2 252/0 Volcarona was still 2hkod by specs flamethrower, whilst it had difficulty 2hkoing back with its four most common moves.

- Tera dark is only good on chien pao in niche matchups, such as against body press. It also makes it less hazard removal support reliant, as it takes reduced damage from SR.

- possibly the biggest difference.. is that band chien pao can actually be checked/dealt with the classic 252/252 bold toxapex + any sturdy dark resist. Although that falls flat on its face against SD+ life orb chien pao, which will break past that. Nasty plot chi yu was less effective than SD chien pao, but it really didn’t need it when it’s specs set was so intense and dominant. SD chien pao can use Tera ghost/fairy/fighting/poison effectively to “guarantee” the +2 in critical matchups, it gets away with it due to the improved speed over chi yu, so it will actually threaten a sweep.

I think the thing is that Chien pao has the same effect, if less noticeable, of chi yu, I think we will see that a lot more. Even urshifu wasn’t as problematic.
 
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