Imma guess ban this time
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Before y'all are like "It's not the same" it's interesting to see that Lando-I is allowed in NatDex Monotype. Not that it changes anything regarding the OU vote but like maybe Nasty Plot ain't such a big change.
Although Nasty Plot actually is a big change and this man will be banned for sure.
Yee forsure, especially w that SR resistance.
Now that we'll have more flying types, esp Lando who isn't a huge HDB fan, SR will be the hazard of choice if there's only 1 turn to get up a hazard.
Tbh, this might be balance's favorite mon lol- teams that only have 2 main damage dealers.
This set lets it psn the opps entire team basically, and then all you have to do is normal balance things like Roost w Corv or Recover w Dengo/Clod, etc.
I was super excited for Mage because I was under the impression it lost Stored Power.
Maybe it was a bad leak or false memory but this entire time I thought GF fixed it :/
The AV set would be so nice in OU..
Same w Specs, Scarf, a pivot set w Volt Switch and Spikes...
Hell the Shift Gear Bolt Beam sweeper spread is just Clod fodder tbh.
But SP.... this is gonna make it hard for Mage to stay, over all the other sets.
However, Mage isn't a free win button with any set.
The other sets are fairly obvious to counter- Clod handles specs easily, for example.
SP is what, imo, pushed Mage out of OU last gen, so I want to focus on that.
Clod w Haze is a hard counter, but Mage only needs 100 attack investment for a 100% 4hko, so just needs a flinch or two- however, Mage can't cheese forever- and that's also kinda ass set but Mage could technically afford to do so.
0 Atk Clodsire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna-Original: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ting also can come in on any SP variant and scare out/KO/Faze out
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 206-246 (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dirge is a pure counter to the SG set
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Skeledirge: 124-147 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- 37.3% chance to 3HKO
We saw how a meta could adapt to a cheese SP sweeper, and Espa was far worse as that archetype.
The issue w Espa was that it gained momentum of SP w/o even doing anything, so it could recover HP and increase SP damage in the same turn w no drawback.. and we still found a way to handle it in some regard- and really it was Tera that pushed it out, so that's something to think about.
But to be fair, that was the only Espa set you had to worry about..
I bring this back to Tera cuz all a team needs is Tera Ground Volc and that answers Dirge, the guaranteed counter.
Dirge is there as one of the few consistent MU Moth checks, but it can't check both these insane sweepers.
Normally it could, which is awesome; v cool, Dirge.
I think Mage would be A+ or S tier in a non-Tera meta, even w SP.
But Tera puts too much pressures on it's counters.
SP is a bit of an uncomp move, but so is Trick and a bunch of random stuff like Spore but that's the game we play.(I use uncomp loosely here, relax.)
Just wish we could keep Mage cuz the utility and fun this mon would bring to the Post-Home meta is needed.
Again, the only way Mage has a snowball's chance in Hell to stay is:
A) Ban Tera
B) Ban Stored Power
Very unfortunate.
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I mean, I REALLY don't know anything, but off the top of my head, with Kingambit at around 50% usage and guys like Ting-Lu or even Iron Treads running around, is SP such a worry?
Like what about Tera Fire Tera Blast Kingambit? Or AV Treads? AV Treads is like suuuper viable in Ubers and with the natural resistance to Psychic Steel and Fairy and Max SpDef investment, I'm sure it can check and counter Magearna effectively.
EDIT:
I found this SP power set Finch ran in Gen 8 with 248HP/136Def/16SpD/108Spe, this is +2 Def, +2SpA, +2SpD against 4HP/252Atk/252Spe AV Treads
+2 0 SpA Magearna Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 112-132 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +2 248 HP / 136+ Def Magearna: 108-128 (29.7 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
Idk if this calc is realistic or not but oh well I'm trying my best to justify Magearna.
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I don't see a world in which Stored Power Magearna is broken, OU has more than enough tools for every team archetype to stop it. It of course will sometimes sweep, but only either those who don't prepare vs Mag at all or when teammates wear down main checks before Mag appears, it isn't different in this regard from other set-ip sweepers.
If Magearna is broken (Spoiler: it is) it will be for the most part due to Specs nukes combined with Trick and endless coverage.
If Magearna is broken (Spoiler: it is) it will be for the most part due to Specs nukes combined with Trick and endless coverage.
you were saying?
Free him! 101 speed is slow nowadays :eyes:
NDM and SV OU are like comparing a wooden door to a glass window.
They're nothing alike
Exactly! It will be cool to see what checks/counters ppl come up w.
But the main argument will be that Mage has too many sets, and the SP set does need some dedicated answers.
So you bring in your Gambit, trying to stop a SP sweep
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 400-472 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or best case Ontario
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Volt Switch vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 144-170 (36 - 42.5%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is just a v quick example, but it doesn't help that Mage now has yet another dedicated set that must be answered in a different way than the other sets- even SG bolt/beam has different answer to SP variants, which could run SP/ID to make things even harder on teams. Some of the checks/counters overlap, obv, but still.
Imo, gen 8 Pult had way too many sets and ppl didn't care about that, but that's a rant for a gen 8 post-mortem discussion.
I don't think "more than enough tools is accurate" I'm sorry.
This mon gets a 120bp move at +1 coming off 130Spa in 2 turns. SG + CM.
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 364-429 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
This is a random calc- literally, but Bax has 115 base HP and figured this might illustrate it.
Also, don't forget this mon gets both Aura Sphere and Focus Blast..
And it's different than other SP sweepers because it has literally the best typing in the game, great bulk and top tier Spa.
Unaware is the only thing that stops this, or going to a dedicated answer that can OHKO Mage before it gets another turn.
Mage has terrible stigma, ppl just look at it and say it's broken beyond repair but in a Post-Home meta I truly think it would add more to balance/fun than it would ever take away- but I can't argue that SP is super hard to handle for a lot of Balance/BO/Stall teams.
and thus, I can't in good faith vote no ban when the time comes.
This gen just isn't shaping up the way I dreamed it would when I was falling asleep after a long game of specs pult, band rilla, and clef..
This is fun, my guess is that it will be Ubers to start but what do I know.
Anyone know when the update will release for showdown?
After HOME drops, which we do not currently have a date on
Lando-I now it's broken without discussion, even more than Magearna. Every Gen it has been tried in OU, every Gen it ended up banned. Magearna at least was balanced in SM even with Z Moves. Only relevant move Lando-I lost is Knock Off, but Chansey is currently bad anyway and the Latis don't even exist.
I can see Weakness Policy Stored Power Magearna popping up to deal with Toxapex and Clodsire at the same time. Not as viable as specs, but still could see some usage.
magearna in gen 7 is still debatably broken
I mean, it is one of the best Mons, but just one of the threats that are hard to check. I don't consider it broken at all that Gen, there wasn't a single set that didn't have any switch-in in standard teams, the only remotely problematic fact about Magearna was the multitude of sets it had, but still, neither of them was broken on its own. Meta had enough tools to adapt to Magearna and successfully did.
In SS Specs set is broken. It wouldn't have been broken in SM due to Megas and Z Moves existing, so the Mons that could switch into the set, weren't invalidated by Trick (which Magearna didn't even have at the time). Specs set is broken in the context of the meta not having Trick absorbers.
I disagree with many Smogon tiering decisions, but preserving and never suspecting Magearna in SM is not one of them.
I mean im by no means a ladder expert but this hypothetical SG+CM mage calc here does also have a choice specs attached, I'm personally of the belief it will probably not last too long just because its gonna have too many tools and doesnt have any consistent counters for any single set, while it may have a few consistent checks. Will be interesting to see how this all goes down
EDIT: Ah I see more clearly what you're saying now lol, the calc still has specs on it.
+1 252+ SpA Magearna-Original Stored Power (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 243-287 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, Bax could never come in after a SG die to Draining Kiss/Fleur obviously, but most mons are 2hko after the CM+SG boosts.
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It was to illustrate how having too many viable sets can be an argument for a mon to be banned.
As in, if you don't switch in Gambit/your check then SG+CM has the risk of cleaning your team, so you need to get it in as soon as u think Mage is going to start setting up.
However, since you weren't sure it was the SP set or not, but couldn't really risk it either way, you now have a KO Gambit.
This is a small example but one you may be more familiar with this gen is Pult.
Until you know forsure if it's specs or band, you're in a p bad position.
If Specs, you can't switch much in besides a dedicated wall or resist that u don't need healthy.
If Band, you can't switch in a Spd wall or it dies.
You can sometimes make a really educated guess based on their team comp, but not so much w Mage.
A Mage can SG, and CM, and u still really won't be sure if its Bolt/Beam, Fairy+Fighting or SP
Too much variance has been a major argument in past suspect tests, Aegi comes to mind as a standout, and Gen 8 Kyu to a lesser extent.
The SP set can not be trifled with and needs to be answered immediately or even mons like Dirge could fold to a 180bp SP, even ignoring the boosts w Unaware.
It's just a bit of an uncompetitive move, especially on something like Mage.
If it lost SP then Clod could always be switched into any Mage except for some weird Phys set ig but still, the above scenario would not happen nearly as much.
Mage would just be treated like any other Spa sweeper/cleaner and be handled by Spd walls.
SP lets you break past Spd walls.
Either way, I believe this will be the nail in the coffin.
the people who want to suspect test lando-i know it'll get banned, they just wanna have fun completely destroying the tier with it for a few days before it gets banned lol
and i cant say it wouldnt be funny to witness the carnage that would ensue
Did Lando-I ever use Rock Polish since it was nuclear by default and the speed prevented revenge kills?
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