Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Cuddly]

Zamazenta-H can still take a hit and absolutely shut down CB sets as long as you don't get flinched too much which is massive, also lots of pokemon are getting scald back, which should also keep it in line with all the burns being thrown around, especially with pex/glowking regaining scald, heatran, and volcanion around.

It can take a hit the first time, but after second time around it’s more shaky and especially with hazards up.

Chien-Pao isn't a sidegrade to Zacian-H at all. Chien-Pao is weak to rocks, as poor bulk (80/80/65) and bad defensive typing. Pao is weak to rock, fire, fighting, steel, bug and fairy. All of this makes it harder for Pao to switch in repeatedly or get its boosts and sweep.

Zacian has very good bulk for a purely offensive Mon (92/115/115), and is weak to steel and poison only, two uncommon offensive typing. It's also not weak to hazards or U-turn. This gives Zacian plenty of opportunity to setup since there are very few OU mons that can force it out. Zacian is also less reliant on tera, so if Tera gets banned later, not much would change for it.

Do you know what a sidegrade means?
Chien-Pao has better ability, coverage, priority, and has dual STAB, but trades it off for significant survivability that post nerf-Zacian-H has and its speed (which outspeeds 2 relevant speed tiers. +1 Adamant Bax and Chien-Pao itself).
And reminder that I’m not actually saying Zacian should be unbanned, just that Chien-Pao should.

 

[Eeveeto]

People were talking about Giratina earlier and I am not convinced it would be all that broken. Sure, a Calm Mind set could be pretty potent, but would it be that much better than Cresselia - which has mostly sat down in the RU / NU tier? I personally don't think so. If it's broken, it would largely be because of Tera since it's base typing has weaknesses to too many common moves which Tera would negate. It does have some really hard MUs like Garganacl that would be difficult to overcome.

I could still see Giratina being broken on its own merits because it's initial power is OK and it's bulk is ludicrous but it's still worth testing out imo.

I already said this last week, but since many things happened, I will repeat it. As a Giratina enjoyer too, its in our interests to delay its test right now. In this initial chaotic Meta, testing Giratina could cause that it is seen more broken than it actually is, so it would be harder to test it again later. Its better to leave it in Ubers for now and bring back the topic in a more stable Meta.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

It can take a hit the first time, but after second time around it’s more shaky and especially with hazards up.

Do you know what a sidegrade means?
Chien-Pao has better ability, coverage, priority, and has dual STAB, but trades it off for significant survivability that post nerf-Zacian-H has and its speed (which outspeeds 2 relevant speed tiers. +1 Adamant Bax and Chien-Pao itself).
And reminder that I’m not actually saying Zacian should be unbanned, just that Chien-Pao should.

I know what sidegrade means. But it's not a sidegrade, It's a downgrade and isn't really even comparable. Coverage is irrelevant since Zacian has perfect coverage with Fairy/Fighting/Dark, and priority doesn't matter that much since Zacian isn't frail and has 138 base speed. If Zacian was a sidegrade (lol) the council would consider it for unban. And it's not in consideration for any tiering action.

 

[Moyashi]

Chien-Pao isn't a sidegrade to Zacian-H at all. Chien-Pao is weak to rocks, as poor bulk (80/80/65) and bad defensive typing. Pao is weak to rock, fire, fighting, steel, bug and fairy. All of this makes it harder for Pao to switch in repeatedly or get its boosts and sweep.

Zacian has very good bulk for a purely offensive Mon (92/115/115), and is weak to steel and poison only, two uncommon offensive typing. It's also not weak to hazards or U-turn. This gives Zacian plenty of opportunity to setup since there are very few OU mons that can force it out. Zacian is also less reliant on tera, so if Tera gets banned later, not much would change for it.

Zacian has a lot of common defensive pokemon that can come into it and chase it out. We have no shortage of viable poisons that all get on its case, and we'fe getting Glowking which is even worse for it. Not to mention Corv, Gholdengo, Skeledirge and Dondozo, LandorusT. And depending on what moves it chooses, Zacian gets walled even more. Now you can make the argument its tougher for offense to handle which is fair. But hazard pressure is a way to hold it off too.

Zamazenta-H can still take a hit and absolutely shut down CB sets as long as you don't get flinched too much which is massive, also lots of pokemon are getting scald back, which should also keep it in line with all the burns being thrown around, especially with pex/glowking regaining scald, heatran, and volcanion around.

ZamaH is actually a very unreliable check to Pao as far as switching in goes. As Dauntless Shield only works once per battle now, this makes this scenario below far more common.

252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 146-172 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

To avoid the risk of this, Zama needs jolly so it isn't outrun by Pao. And Banded Icicle Crash is a 2HKO regardless. Scald also would do fuck all to Pao as it's not coming in front of these mons as they use it. Volcanion and Heatran also cant take banded tera dark crunches.

 

[AM]

People are talking about Iron Threads being a great pokemon against Regieleki, but what about Iron Hands? With Assault Vest, this thing has a better bulk isn't it ?
And we can drain punch easily to keep it alive.

I'm really scared about Chien-Pao and Magearna and I think they will be hard to handle.

I like treads more cause it can spin and Regieleki cant Volt out of danger on it for free. It isnt just about bulk.

I think Pao and Mag will be fine personally but we'll see when people optimize different stuff how that goes.

 

[awyp]

Spectrier banned https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-home-tiering-announcements.3721859/#post-9633830

im levitating from this news

 

[Smashburn]

For what it's worth, in the limited time I played SVOU during the time that Pao was still legal, it was awful. Constantly having to compete with its ability to push buttons and win was more than just a pain in the teambuilder, it was a burden on the meta as a whole. Even where we stand now as I've observed it, I don't think it would be a healthy addition to the meta whatsoever and it should stay banned from OU. It reminds me of Pheromosa in early post-home SSOU; strong and fast, while fragile it breaks the absolute crap out of everything and forces specific answers and adaptions that I don't think are natural to any stable metagame. Please, for my mental sanity keep it out.

On the subject of retests, what's the plan for post-home SV OU with Terastalization? Now that we've had Tera all of pre-home there has been a growing sentiment for it to leave, and a ton of the usual playerbase as well as the more experienced playerbase are tired of it. As it is, Tera barely dodged action the first time around by a hair.

:EDIT:

Of course the matter is already settled, but I'm not expecting anything good to come from it being here again. Adios SVOU.

 

[PlatEspresso]

Let's move on to the next discourse, Chi-Yu and Espathra votes! The 2 mon every OU player knows and loves, the fire fish that can one shot nearly anything (heatran tho) and the fairy/fire/fighting/whatever team devourer (tera dark clodsire tho). yeah no chance for either especially as they need 7/10 ou votes

 

[furyofyuriy]

Let's move on to the next discourse, Chi-Yu and Espathra votes! The 2 mon every OU player knows and loves, the fire fish that can one shot nearly anything (heatran tho) and the fairy/fire/fighting/whatever team devourer (tera dark clodsire tho). yeah no chance for either especially as they need 7/10 ou votes

Espartha should stay banned imo regardless of Tera due to the combo of Sub+ Speed Boost+ Lumina Crash. If not for Lumina crash i could see an argument for staying but anything not named Kinggambit really has a hard time doing much in terms of Dazzling Gleam/Lumina Crash coverage.

The fish from hell I'd be willing to try again in OU, but I don't think it will stay. It's a powerful tactical Nuke to be sure but there are plenty of powerful new water mons joining the tier that ****may**** be able to keep it somewhat at bay like Urshifu Rapid and Walking Wake. And if Rain makes a comeback due to the addition of Basculegion and Overquil, that may at least dampen it's fire Power.

 

[awyp]

So I guess some formulated opinions I have from the recent HOME decisions in the last couple of days:

Ape remaining banned was fantastic, I think it's one of the most broken mons when you talk about tera abusers, if tera was to change though I'd be much open to it being in OU.

Regieleki is something I'm very mixed on, based on what I've seen in Natdex I thought it might be too much even though the metas are different but still. Ground types will be extremely valid in the first couple of weeks. I can see it being balanced but my initial thought is that it might be too much.

Pao being legal was an expectation I have since like I said before there are a lot of new mons being introduced and you still have Tauros Paldea. This is the same with both mons about I feel like if tera was to get banned I can see all these mons being "okay" in OU but I need to deduce more when playing. I think eventually if tera doesn't get banned I think it'll go back to Ubers.

and fuck specbum

future opinions:

Obviously I love Chi-Yu :3 (as you can tell from my pfp) but I don't think it should ever see the light of day in OU ever again. I think one of my favorite uses of Chi-Yu is it's defensive capabilities which is underrated from a special defensive / tera changing perspective. But yeah Nukem Nemo is a no-no for me.

Espathra needs to stay in Ubers as long as tera is legal, it should never come to OU. I'll have a longer post if it ends up being legal when HOME comes out but for the love of God keep this thing as far away as you can from OU.

 

[Alternator]

For what it's worth, in the limited time I played SVOU during the time that Pao was still legal, it was awful. Constantly having to compete with its ability to push buttons and win was more than just a pain in the teambuilder, it was a burden on the meta as a whole. Even where we stand now as I've observed it, I don't think it would be a healthy addition to the meta whatsoever and it should stay banned from OU. It reminds me of Pheromosa in early post-home SSOU; strong and fast, while fragile it breaks the absolute crap out of everything and forces specific answers and adaptions that I don't think are natural to any stable metagame. Please, for my mental sanity keep it out.

On the subject of retests, what's the plan for post-home SV OU with Terastalization? Now that we've had Tera all of pre-home there has been a growing sentiment for it to leave, and a ton of the usual playerbase as well as the more experienced playerbase are tired of it. As it is, Tera barely dodged being banned the first time around by a hair.

:EDIT:

Of course the matter is already settled, but I'm not expected anything good to come from it being here again. Adios SVOU.

Please at least be accurate about the basic facts: terastalization did not "barely survive being banned." It barely avoided tera preview.

Revisionist history does not make for useful debates.

 

[Ctann]

If banning lando-I was unanimous, can’t see Chi Yu being anything short of unanimous as well

Probably really short odds on a unanimous NO for chi yu lol.

the odds on espathra will probably track ape, based on similar polarisation and their brokenness being so Tera reliant.

flutter meme is gonna track spectre votes, but more extreme

mecha delibird is even more broken than flutter mane lol, it’s faster and at least it can survive some priority.

the closest precedent vote for urshifu-S is the other dark type: CP. hard to guess and could swing both ways. Coin toss on whether it makes it, doubt there will be unanimous opinion. CP is faster, has double priority, and got in, and the meta has some more fairies coming in, and sub 100 base speed + little utility will have a harder time keeping up with the new threats . Personal opinion is to try urshifu S, even tho it’s extremely likely to be OP.

—

How much of an impact eleki makes is directly correlated with how many of the proposed Pokémon’s are banned. Since it pips them all, and the meta will skew massively towards offense, lol.

Finchinator it would have been an interesting drip feed if you started with the most dominant Pokémon’s first , like flutter mane and Mecha delibird. It feels like starting with the less impactful spectrier , et all, makes the ban opinions obvious now!

 

[Harmless]

Spectrier banned https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-home-tiering-announcements.3721859/#post-9633830

Unanimous vote. Somebody voted flutter mane to be legal again

 

[Ctann]

GF, when making slaking: let’s give this excellent BST and crazy high attack that rivals even the box art legendaries. But first, we will give it an actual hindering ability and no cool STAB attacks, just Incase it’s too OP.

GF, when making super dolphin bro: just what this game needs is another crazy BST non legendary, let’s actually give it a useable move pool too. It’s okay, a mildly hindering ability should do the trick, and just 1exclusive priority move, it’s 60BP STAB with excellent neutral coverage and boostable by the weather, but that ain’t a problem, we nerfed rillabooms STAB priority [that’s 2x or 4x resisted by 35% of OU ] to 60BP too.

 

[LoseToRU?]

GF, when making slaking: let’s give this excellent BST and crazy high attack that rivals even the box art legendaries. But first, we will give it an actual hindering ability and no cool STAB attacks, just Incase it’s too OP.

GF, when making super dolphin bro: just what this game needs is another crazy BST non legendary, let’s actually give it a useable move pool too. It’s okay, a mildly hindering ability should do the trick, and just 1exclusive priority move, it’s 60BP STAB with excellent neutral coverage and boostable by the weather, but that ain’t a problem, we nerfed rillabooms STAB priority [that’s 2x or 4x resisted by 35% of OU ] to 60BP too.

To be fair, one is a literal sloth and the other is a dolphin super hero.
What a game we play lol

 

[Talpr0ne]

It does have some really hard MUs like Garganacl that would be difficult to overcome.

Sub Calm Mind Giratina literally mops the floor with every non-Curse set of Garg and even Curse can lose if Giratina subs on the switch or gets lucky with Shadow Ball drops.
I firmly believe that SubCM (with WoW) would be the best set for Giratina in OU because of how easily it takes advantage of anything even slightly passive (Garganacl included); this set alone would be a sufficient argument for a ban without even considering any other set.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

PLEASE for the love of god, do not unleash to OU

 

[G-Luke]

It can take a hit the first time, but after second time around it’s more shaky and especially with hazards up.

Do you know what a sidegrade means?
Chien-Pao has better ability, coverage, priority, and has dual STAB, but trades it off for significant survivability that post nerf-Zacian-H has and its speed (which outspeeds 2 relevant speed tiers. +1 Adamant Bax and Chien-Pao itself).
And reminder that I’m not actually saying Zacian should be unbanned, just that Chien-Pao should.

Its incredible how resoundingly wrong you have been on almost every single topic started in this thread over the course of these 4 months.

The only point Chien Pao has over it and like the only point is muscling past Unaware, which honestly while is cool it doesn't measure up all of the numerous extra benefits it otherwise gets. These mons are just not comparable.

 

[taziathegreat]

PLEASE for the love of god, do not unleash to OU

I actually wanna test it

Sure sword dance makes it a nuclear threat, but it does set up 4MSS

 

[Mega Breloom]

I actually wanna test it

Sure sword dance makes it a nuclear threat, but it does set up 4MSS

It also gets Trailblaze which will make it hard to revenge kill, sure not a single set will destroy everything, but it has options to beat almost everything in the tier.

 

[luckie]

I actually wanna test it

Sure sword dance makes it a nuclear threat, but it does set up 4MSS

While I do agree SD comes at an opportunity cost, I feel like it'd be a mirage of one, in the sense that while it's losing out on Poison Jab or Sucker Punch, SD would be just the tool it needs to not need one or the other of the last moves it would choose (probably Poison Jab?) and it would just muscle through it's checks, especially late game.

The thought of a Tera Dark +2 Wicked Blow late game is absolutely horrifying.

But I'm not 100% against a test. 75/25 for me, which is still heavily in the just ban it and get it over with category, but it could at least be interesting for a bit.

 

[Magcargo]

If this is Urshifu-Dark we are talking about, its a mixed bag. Wicked Blow's minor nerf doesn't really matter too much, but Swords Dance is a really big buff. Punching Gloves pretty much removes the drawback of LO & RH recoil that adamant BU sets had last generation. Throw in Tera Dark & it'll take Wicked Blow Spam to another level.

That being said, we do have some threats like Tusk and Valiant that will be somewhat annoying for it to deal with. It is significantly bulkier than Chien + no SR weakness, but its lower speed leaves it revenged killed by many key threats like Garchomp & Valiant that Chien-Pao didn't have to worry about. Everything and their mother running Tera Fairy also kinda hurts the potential of its main move, Wicked Blow. It could branch other to other Tera types like Fighting to muscle past Tusk or Poison to beat the fairies, or just brute force past them w/ +2 Tera Dark Wicked Blow. I'm thinking it'll still be busted but not on the same level as mons like Flutter Mane, Chi-Yu, or even Chien-Pao.

GF, when making slaking: let’s give this excellent BST and crazy high attack that rivals even the box art legendaries. But first, we will give it an actual hindering ability and no cool STAB attacks, just Incase it’s too OP.

GF, when making super dolphin bro: just what this game needs is another crazy BST non legendary, let’s actually give it a useable move pool too. It’s okay, a mildly hindering ability should do the trick, and just 1exclusive priority move, it’s 60BP STAB with excellent neutral coverage and boostable by the weather, but that ain’t a problem, we nerfed rillabooms STAB priority [that’s 2x or 4x resisted by 35% of OU ] to 60BP too.

I think Dolphin bro's weakness is more apparent in a 3v3 or 4v4 format, where games are much faster & switching poses a greater risk. In 6v6, the ability isn't much of a hindrance since you will be using an Uber for significantly more turns than an Un-mon.

 

[Smashburn]

Please at least be accurate about the basic facts: terastalization did not "barely survive being banned." It barely avoided tera preview.

Revisionist history does not make for useful debates.

Was a slight mess up, been awhile since the fact and have been tired. TLDR / Rehash: Tera barely survived action last time and people are tired of it.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

I actually wanna test it

Sure sword dance makes it a nuclear threat, but it does set up 4MSS

Choice Band Wicked Blow is still insane, 3HKOing tusk with CC and being unwallable is stupid.

 

[Cuddly]

Its incredible how resoundingly wrong you have been on almost every single topic started in this thread over the course of these 4 months.

The only point Chien Pao has over it and like the only point is muscling past Unaware, which honestly while is cool it doesn't measure up all of the numerous extra benefits it otherwise gets. These mons are just not comparable.

Resoundingly Right* fixed your typo
Intrepid Sword got nerfed hard, where it will only activate once per game. Sword of Ruin always stay the entire game.

The only attacking priority move Zacian has is Quick Attack. Chien-Pao has both Ice Shard and Sucker Punch.

Zacian needs to run an assortment of moves to hit notable targets. Close Combat for Steels, Psychic Fang for Poison types, Wild Charge for Corviknight and Dondozo, Crunch for Skeledirge before Tera, Play Rough for Defensive Great Tusk, Iron Head for when Skeledirge and Garg Tera into Fairy, ect. Chien-Pao's Ice/Dark/Fighting coverage is extremely hard to wall, which is only resisted by Azumarill.

btw in case if you were confused, I'm:
A. Talking about Zacian-H, the 120 Atk 138 Spe non-Steel type version of Zacian with an ability that significantly enhances its attacking power, and comparing it to Chien-Pao, the 120 Atk 135 Spe Ruin Pokemon with an ability that significantly enhances its attacking power.
B. I'm saying NEITHER SHOULD BE OU. BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED. THEY'RE FUCKING STUPID AND HAVE 0 BUSINESS BEING IN THE TIER

Now thank you. If you want to keep embarrassing yourself, feel free to do so.