Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I want to at least re-direct a bit on how some people have been discussing Tera typing. There's the use of the word 'random' in tangent with Tera typing, that I really don't agree with. Obviously we all know you have to choose an effective type and the opponent is unaware of the potential choice, so it would be exact to say the typing is another piece of asymmetric information in this game. Asymmetric information is something we have quite a bit of already. The four moves you run and the ability your mon has are already part of this. Z-Moves were an example of asymmetric information, as was Mega Charizard forms. The choice of when to change types and what type to change to are still a form of skill in this game, unlike a random element.

I actually think Tera will get worse as the bans start to roll out. It shouldn't be a surprise that some of the biggest abusers of Tera also showed up on the council's radar. Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane and Roaring Moon are common Tera users, and should Chien Pao and Flutter Mane both catch a quick ban, this drastically decreases the most abusive edge cases of terastratlizing. An edge case like Flutter Mane that is already so limited in the amount of things that can answer it even without terastralizing means that users of Flutter Mane can prep for exactly what weakness they have (terastralize fire, terastralize normal etc etc) because only a few options exist against the mon in question.

The one piece I see truly being a problem with Terastralizing specifically and not the meta is that it is costless to have the option. This was something similar with Dynamaxing, where you didn't actually spend an item to make a benefit for it. You DO have to prep more in these cases, but going to our Flutter Mane example, if you have Tera Fire Fluttermane and do not see a Scizor, your Tera can immediately change to Chien Pao to get an adaptability dark sweep rolling. This didn't COST you anything, there was no Z-Move commitment nor moveslots taken.

The adaptability option to me is actually of far less concern. It makes mons that are too strong already, stronger. Outside Azumarill which is requiring a +6 belly drum tera water to get to stupid damage levels, are we actively seeing Tera Adaptability sweeps consistently come from mons that we aren't at least pointing to as eventual suspect tests? Moreover, we will probably find that the THREAT of terastralizing is as high if not higher than the actual terastralize. Once your Tera choice becomes common knowledge, if the switch to the type doesn't end the game, the value of it goes way down as you've lost a lot of informational superiority.

I think Terastralizing needs to be re-examined after 2 or so waves of hits, maybe not even as the priority suspect test. I think we see terastralizing happen and lose and associate the terastralizing as the reason we lost. Whereas often I'm finding its a lack of game knowledge (Iron Thorns can Tera Flying and screw over my Fighting Press answer?) or the opponent was often in an overtly-winning position that Terastralizing exasperated, but did not cause.

But time is an important, if not painful, requirement for this mechanic. We really do need to see what happens as the meta shifts, if this just becomes a mechanic that consistently pushes the top mons too far, or if the busted mons just make it look crazier than it is.
 
I have no ball in the game, but curious about the response.
Since Tera and non-Tera metagames would shape up very differently and especially considering bans, maybe running both simultaneously could be an option? It'd be a shame to miss out on how either would develop with or without Tera, both look quite interesting to me.
Of course it'd be extra work and a hassle working out how that would impact other tiers and how that should be handled.
I've had the same thoughts on say a XY/ORAS split when the latter released, for the same reasons.
 
what do people think about ting-lu atm? a lot of people seemed to think it was uber worthy before sv ou was implemented in showdown but since then i haven't really seen it discussed or used on ladder at all. i'm curious if anyone's seen success with it, i've thought about putting it on some teams but it seems pretty passive and slow on top of having weaknesses to a lot of top threats out there atm. might be good when the meta stabilizes but only time will tell i suppose.
Haven't seen it around much. I tried it for 5 games or so. It is extremely durable yes, however the meta rn is just super hostile to it. Palafin, Iron Valiant, Flutter Mane, Chien Pao, Iron Bundle, ... all have super effective STABs against it. It doesnt get outright OHKO'd by them though which goes to show just how fucking phat it is. The main thing this mon answers is Sand, which it admittedly does very well. Wouldnt surprise me if this mon rises up to prominence as the meta develops. It gets both rocks & spikes, ruination is a cool tech, and STAB EQ coming off 110 attack is respectable. It also gets Body Press. Thats about all the utility it gets unfortunately, no knock off :(

Main issues with it is its lack of recovery & vulnerability to status imo, but I wouldnt be surprised if RestTalk sets make an appearance on this thing. It's also jus hard to justify a Ground/Dark type on your team right now because all the top threats smoke that type combo offensively. You could always Tera it defensively but is that really worth it?
 
I decided I wanted to get somewhat decent at the meta before making a post like this. After reaching #2 on the ladder & playing a sizable amount of games (68), I now feel comfortable giving my thoughts on every single Pokemon that Finchinator placed on his "On The Radar" post. Great post by the way. I will be categorizing each Pokemon from this post with one of 3 options: Quickban, Suspect Test, & Balanced.

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Quickban

Before I get into why I chose "Quickban", I'd like to address some points made in this thread because I find them to be horrendously misinformed. Arguments to why this Pokemon is "ass" or "mid" revolve on one of these basis:
Houndstone teams are effectively playing 5v6 until something dies
Using Houndstone is a win-win situation no matter how you look at it. If one of your members die, your Last Respects is powered up. If you're 15 turns into a game and none of your Pokemon are dead, that's good. You're winning the game! If slow play is not your style, there are plenty of Pokemon that can do a ton of work quickly before dying. Glimmora is, in my opinion, the best suicide lead to date (bar maybe Deoxys-S) and consistently gets up Spikes, Toxic Spikes, significant chip with its strong Power Gem, and/or poisons with Mortal Spin. A lot of the Paradox Pokemon are also very brainless "set up and attack a bunch of times until you die"-- Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, Flutter Mane, etc... If you're using good Pokemon, by the time Houndstone comes out, it'll be a field day. These Memento / Final Gambit spam teams you see on the ladder are simply shitty gimmicks used by lazy builders.
Reliance on sand bites in the ass a lot as you can easily end up tossing multiple forced sacs just to get it in cuz you need both it and the sand setter alive. Endgames can also get rough if you can’t get optimal sand turns.
Sand is the best weather this generation. It has a positive match-up vs Sun which is really popular and a neutral match-up vs Rain (rare). Tyranitar and Hippowdon are also decent Pokemon by themselves unlike Torkoal and Pelipper. There is very little cost in using Smooth Rock as your item since Knock Off distribution is at an all-time low. Houndstone is extremely easy to support.
Houndstone has difficulty breaking fat as both clod and id corv are both pretty good at denying it from doing much (clod beats it even if it’s houndstone last.) Keeping tspikes off w it last is also rough, tspikes aren’t nearly as important counterplay as clod/corv but it makes breaking w Houndstone even more impractical.
Unaware does not in fact ignore Last Respect's boosts. Not sure if you even played this metagame (not trying to be disrespectful, just couldn't find any other way to phrase this), but physically defensive Corviknight is 2HKO'd 35.5% of the time after Stealth Rock. This is only with 2 party members dead. If 3 party members are dead, it is cleanly two-shot (with or without Stealth Rock). And that's another thing: hazards are very easy to keep up in this metagame. Whether that is Gholdengo, players making high risk-high reward switches to spinblock, or the insane powercreep this generation where even one turn can cost the game...

The rest of the arguments I see are mainly focused on how Houndstone dies to priority. I was in this camp until I tried this set that Ox the Fox and his crew were hyping up for hours on end this morning in chat. After using this set, I can say without certain that this is the only good Houndstone set. And it's broken:

Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Respects
- Body Press
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Edit: Tera Blast-Fighting is also an option

Items like Choice Band and Life Orb are extremely overkill and unnecessary when Last Respects kills everything unboosted in a 3v3 scenario. With Will-O-Wisp, you defeat Sucker Punch users such as Chien-Pao and Kingambit. Will-O-Wisp also has amazing applications early-game where you might be forced to bring Houndstone in during a 6v6 and 5v6 & neutralize a threat when your Last Respects is weaker. Protect is the best option in the last slot because it lets you scout Choice-locked attacks like Flutter Mane's Shadow Ball and Palafin's CB Jet Punch (needs Tera to 1-shot by the way). Leftovers + Protect also keep this Pokemon at a consistently high amount of HP, meaning non-super effective priority such as Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and the aforementioned Jet Punch will fail to pick you off. Houndstone has 72 / 100 defenses. That is very good for a Pokemon as cracked as this. Tera-Fighting is also beautiful typing to switch to in a pinch and it boosts Body Press's damage output for Pokemon such as Blissey. Overall, this Pokemon is very unhealthy, extremely easy to support, and has no counters bar Garganacl. Houndstone is by far the most broken Pokemon on the list and I highly advise the council to quickban this threat. banning Last Respects the move is dumb imo

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Quickban


Not going to lie. I was initially on the fence when it came to this Pokemon in practice. I found it quite manageable due to its abysmal Defense stat. Even some of the more passive Pokemon such as Clodsire's Earthquake do 60% to this thing, meaning if it can't kill what is in front of you, you're most likely dying or being limited to 2 more switches via Stealth Rock. This Pokemon is also very easy to check as well as it is OHKO'd by common priority from the likes of Chien-Pao, Palafin, Scizor, Kingambit,... and none of these are bad Pokemon on their own right. However, after thinking about it, I believe the metagame would be healthier without this Pokemon because of how restrictive it is in the teambuilder. The fact that I'm resorting myself to using mediocre sets like AV Iron Treads, Mirror Armor Corviknight, Heavy Slam Ting-Lu, Shadow Ball Blissey, etc... is a testament by itself. Being forced to invest a ton, if not max out, my SpD EV's onto Pokemon such as Toxapex and Clodsire is also another example of its restrictiveness. Flutter Mane has also adapted very quickly to recent metagame trends. Psyshock for Clodsire, Substitute for status, Tera-Fairy for Sucker Punch, and Energy Ball for Garganacl are all sets I've seen today that are not as horrendous as you think because all it needs is Shadow Ball and Moonblast to do what it does every game. I do think there are decent arguments one can make when it comes to anti-ban, but would I be mad if Flutter Mane got the boot this early into the meta? Probably not.

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Suspect Test


This will probably be the most controversial placing on my list (or maybe not since Baloor post got some good traction), but I don't think Chien-Pao is all that. When I first saw the leaks, my initial thoughts were "Jesus this is literally Weavile on steroids, no way it lasts." After playing with and against it though, I can say this Pokemon doesn't need any immediate tiering action. Sword of Ruin, while a cracked ability on paper, still manages to fall short in practice due to Chien-Pao's low base power moves. To give you a perspective on this, Crunch only does 30% to Corviknight. The lack of offensive utility is also very noticeable (Weavile had Knock Off, that's huge). The Heavy-Duty Boots set is definitely the best set in this metagame where hazards are extremely hard to remove / prevent, and Chien-Pao struggles to get off a Swords Dance without some type of Shed Tail / Memento support. Even after a Swords Dance, 3 slots are not enough to pick the optimal coverage. A set with Sucker Punch as your sole Dark stab is a disaster vs bulky Water-types, while giving up Sacred Sword means you're comfortably checked by Pokemon such as Kingambit, Iron Treads, Baxcalibur, Tinkaton (not good but people do use it), and Quaquaval.

The metagame has also adapted VERY QUICKLY to Chien-Pao, whether that is the use of Dondozo, Tera Skeledirge, and Fairy Tera Avalugg (busted Pokemon fr) on stall or Pokemon such as Slither Wing, Choice Scarf Chi-Yu, or HP-invested Bulk Up Palafin sets on BO. None of these are bad sets by the way. Even if Chien-Pao was quickbanned, people would still use these sets. This is not like Flutter Mane where you're forced to use inferior EV spreads on Toxapex and Tyranitar. Also god forbid for when Revival Blessing is coded into the game. Pawmot will be an amazing check to it with Mach Punch.

Before I move on, let me get this straight that I am not saying Chien-Pao is balanced. I am still deciding that for myself. Choice Band sets, different Tera-types, Taunt... even Chien-Pao itself can adapt as we are seeing as I literally type this post out. But as the metagame progresses, I think it's slowly becoming more clear that a quickban is unnecessary since it doesn't make the metagame unplayable like the former two and it should go through the regular testing process.

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Balanced


I find Palafin to be perfectly fine right now. It's a complete noob-killer and it punishes aimless play more than other Pokemon on this list. I also find it to have a lot of splashable checks such as Iron Bundle (no idea why people don't use this Pokemon with Boots more), Toxapex, Clodsire, Dragapult, Dragonite, etc... Palafin's ability to take a hit also makes it a healthy tier presence in preventing mindless set up sweeps from the likes of Chien-Pao, Iron Valiant, and Volcarona. The Bulk Up + Taunt set is definitely restrictive but it was only a couple hours into me using this set that I was running into stuff like Sludge Bomb Toxapex. "But hey using Sludge Bomb on Toxapex is an indicator to it being broken!" Yes, but also no. Toxapex has like no good attacking move so you might as well run something. Sludge Bomb isn't that much different from the shitty Liquidation set you were using earlier. Palafin users also always lead with the mediocre base form meaning the other player always has the advantage to capitalize early with hazards, Shed Tail, or a strong attack. While I do think that this Pokemon might become broken after the power creep is lowered with upcoming bans and Tera-Water-boosted Jet Punch can be dumb and clutch games from what would be unwinnable positions, as of right now I think it's completely fine.

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Suspect Test

This is by far the best abuser of Tera on the list. Tera-Steel lets you set up on Fairy-types and boost Iron Head to a point where it's not some shitty coverage move. Tera-Fire does the same as Steel but is used on Sun. Tera-Flying with Acrobatics lets you get through traditional checks and counters such as Great Tusk, First Impression users, and Body Press Corviknight. Running +Speed Energy Booster allows you to bypass Ditto. But not sure if I'd agree with a quickban. Like Chien-Pao, the metagame has adapted with sets like Ice Shard Chien-Pao and it can't run every set I mentioned at once. Offensive teams tend to stack up on a lot of strong priority and more defensive playstyles have decent options in Whirlwind Ting-Lu and using Tera reactively to deal with it. I'd personally wait and see how the metagame progresses.

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Suspect Test*

Cyclizar is by far the biggest culprit when it comes to HO's over-dominance in the metagame. The move Shed Tail is supposed to be a high-cost and high-reward move as we see with Orthworm, but Cyclizar's access to Regenerator completely dances around that flaw. Cyclizar is, in my opinion, why Pokemon such as Taunt + Bulk Up Palafin and Roaring Moon seem more cracked than they actually are. Cyclizar teams are pretty much all the same. They lead Palafin, switch to Grimmsnarl, set up screens, Parting Shot into Cyclizar, then Shed Tail into some set up Pokemon and win. If a suspect went up today, I'd probably vote ban. It's the same boring sequence every game and even when you know what it's going to do, you really can't do much to stop it unless you have phazing / play like a complete god. Why didn't I didn't label it as a quickban then? I think it's important to let the metagame breath after banning the two Ghost-types, then we can look at it again / put up a test.

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Balanced

Iron Valiant is good but I never found it broken. In fact, I actually find it to be a healthy tier presence because of its quad-resistance to Sucker Punch, making it a great way to stop a +2 Chien-Pao or Kingambit from spiraling out of control. In terms of flaws, this Pokemon always has a heavy case of 4MSS. If you go Knock Off, you're walled by Toxapex and Clodsire. If you go Zen Headbutt, you're walled by Gholdengo. Special sets lack a lot of power to outright win games and Iron Valiant's frailty means it drops to a lot of priority that isn't Sucker Punch. I think Iron Valiant is frankly underexplored if anything. Tera-sets could have potential. We'd have to wait and see. For now I'd say it's 100% balanced though.

Anyways, if you got this far, I'd like to thank you for reading! I will be making a post on Tera later this week but tl;dr I'd like to see it play out for weeks, probably months in fact. I think it adds a really cool dynamic to this game and not in an unhealthy way like Dynamax did.
 
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I don't think Palafin needs to be quickbanned. It's definitely a future potential ban candidate but it got a decent amount of counterplay available imo, and it doesn't bypass them too well
I'm in agreement with this for now, Water Tera CB Jet Punch has been doing wonders for me, especially in conjunction with Rain but I've also used it alongside a Dugtrio to deal with Clodsire who is the usual check to it - and I'd probably argue that Arena Trap is the bigger offender there.

If you haven't tried Great Tusk or Iron Treads, please please do! You'll be surprised just how solid those two mons are. Literally all the teams I'm creating now are trying to include one or the other. I think I prefer Great Tusk more out of the two however.

I keep trying to make some Quark Drive mons work and really the only ones that seems to be really good are Iron Bundle and Iron Valiant (also include the aforementioned Iron Treads) and that's more due to their stats/movepools.
 
what do people think about ting-lu atm? a lot of people seemed to think it was uber worthy before sv ou was implemented in showdown but since then i haven't really seen it discussed or used on ladder at all. i'm curious if anyone's seen success with it, i've thought about putting it on some teams but it seems pretty passive and slow on top of having weaknesses to a lot of top threats out there atm. might be good when the meta stabilizes but only time will tell i suppose.
Ting-Lu is a great tank but nowhere near banworthy. Idk how anybody thought it would be, since it has no recovery option. It walls many ghost type mons and handles quite a few special attackers that aren't water/ice/fairy type. Once Flutter Mane is banned, it will be a much better since power level will drop quite a bit.
 
I think may want to join in and share my uneducated opinion

:Flutter Mane: Quick Ban

Ever since release I have been trying 3 different sets

Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy/Life Orb
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Tera Blast
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball

This set is basically a wincon. After 2 Calm Minds with Booster Energy boosting Speed I have found Flutter Mane to outspeed and kill anything it encountered. 1 Calm Mind on the LO set allows for it to achieve similar things, albeit its slower. 135 Speed and Special Attack make it a pokemon to fear even without a boost, but after boosting up with Calm Mind, have fun.

I found Tera Ground to give the best coverage, hitting the few type combinations left out by Moonblast and Shadow Ball, and making Flutter Mane insanely hard to switch into, even harder than normal, as it now hits anything at least for neutral, but it can be replaced with anything. As I said, uneducated opinion, I have rarely met a case where Terastalizing would have massively changed much, but, you may share your experience and correct me on this.


Flutter Mane @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast/Psychic/Power Gem/Thunderbolt/Basically any coverage move
- Psyshock/Psychic/Power Gem/Thunderbolt/Basically any coverage move

Choice Specs is for a consistent 1.5x damage multiplier whenever Flutter Mane switches in. I have found this set to be the weakest out of the ones I tried, but still giving incredible results. Beyond Moonblast and Shadow Ball covering anything but 4 mons that barely see play, Psyshock allows it to deal massive damage on Blissey and Chansey and hit special switchins on their weaker, physical side.

Flutter Mane @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast/Psychic/Power Gem/Thunderbolt/Basically any coverage move
- Psyshock/Psychic/Power Gem/Thunderbolt/Basically any coverage move

Same Idea here, although this set is more focused about coming in once and doing as much damage as possible.

Running it in combination with Chien-Pao, Scarf Gholdengo and Band Lokix, I have found them to net incredible results together, with Chien-Pao and Flutter Mane being incredible attackers, Gholdengo catching many opposing Pokemon off guard and punching them with a strong Make It Rain, and Lokix being an incredible Offensive Lead and revenge killer, this Pokemon should definitely be banned as soon as possible. It is specially very Bulky, very fast and also very strong.

:Chien-Pao:

I have only really tried one set.
And personally, this is also a Quick Ban

Chien-Pao @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Crunch
- Ice Spinner
- Swords Dance/Sucker Punch

I dont think I have to go too deep into this one. Sword Of Ruin reduces opposing defenses by 25%, which turns many mons from would-be-switchins to free kills. Ice Spinner and Crunch are solid stab options, I prefer running Crunch over Throat Chop, as Crunch has a 20% Chance to drop the enemy defense Stat further.

It would also be possible to swap Ice Spinner with Icicle Crash, however the small increase of Power in 5 BP is not worth it imo, not if you lose 10% accuracy.
Sacred Sword provides great coverage, hitting opposing Chien-Pao, Kingambit, and more mons for super effective damage.
Last slot is interchangeable between SDance and Sucker Punch. I personally prefer Swords Dance as my teams already run Lokix as a Revenge Killer, but Sucker Punch allows it to beat faster mons. (Think it also OHKO's Flutter Mane, can someone confirm this?)

Sure, Choice Band is an option, however I find the flexibility of Life Orb to be way better, as your damage output already is incredible.

:Gholdengo: Solid Option

Gholdengo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

To put it simply, Make It Rain slams many mons, essentially being a Steel Type Draco Meteor with STAB and only -1 Special Attack. This move is so spammable and allows it to easily force out or Revenge Kill Flutter Mane as well as Chien-Pao.
Shadow Ball is the secondary STAB move used if Make It Rain is not as spammable anymore.
Psyshock allows it to beat many special walls, though I have not found many cases where this move was necessary.
And, lastly, Trick. I see a lot of players switching into Corviknight, so Trick will definitely help crippling that, especially once you took out the enemy Chien-Pao and/or Flutter Mane and Gholdengo doesnt have much value anymore, Choice Scarfing an enemy may be pretty valuable.

:Lokix: Underrated

Lokix @ Choice Band/Life Orb
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Axe Kick

FI coming off of this monis incredibly strong. After a Tera Bug the CBand set immediately takes down opposing Palafin, which is incredibly valuable, as many players often play it as their lead, allowing for you to take it down safely. Furthermore, Tinted Lens making First Impression way less resisted allows for Lokix to Revenge Kill a LOT of the current metagame, especially after a Tera Bug.

Sucker Punch is a different topic, though, as its way less powerful than First Impression. However, Sucker Punch absolutely slams Flutter Mane, Armarouge and Ceruledge. This is just naming a few, though.

U-Turn is not getting too much value in the current Meta but im predicting it to be very valuable once your enemy switches out of your Lokix whenever you bring it in on their biggest Threats, in fear of them losing their Attacker. This allows you to throw off a strong U-turn while also keeping the momentum on your side. And well, Axe Kick is there because I honestly didnt know what else to put there.


This is just my uneducated opinion on 4 mons in the current metagame
 
hey guys! noob to ou here. this is my first time posting, so be nice

my main question is, what am i supposed to do against garganacl?

:garganacl:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Recover
- Salt Cure

this is the only set i've seen, but it demolishes me every time. comes in on a ton of mons and gets to +6 defense extremely quickly. it's nearly impossible to break through because of huge bulk, +6 defense, status immunity, and terastallizing, and it's basically impossible to take +6 body press without an immunity. ghost types can easily get stalled out because of salt cure + recover, especially if you tera to water or steel.

i genuinely have no idea how to stop this, but i haven't seen anyone talking about it. is there some extremely obvious counter that i'm missing? am i just bad at teambuilding? or is it actually just unstoppable?


also, i'm not experienced enough to confidently say what should be banned and what shouldn't. but, i really think that last respects should be banned instead of houndstone, if only because it might be given to basculin-white-striped & basculegion as well (according to showdown).
a no-drawbacks 300 BP ghost move is fundamentally overpowered, and any pokemon with it (even basculin) would probably be too much.
 
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my main question is, what am i supposed to do against garganacl?
i think it mainly depends on your team. if you could post your team, then it'd help a lot to figure it out!

on another topic, people have been talking about bans, Houndstone. Whether it's the Pokémon or it's the move Last Respects problem. While many are on the side of Last Respects being banned instead of the Pokémon,,

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1715262577

god save me. i made this whole post out of spite but God.

Before I get into why I chose "Quickban", I'd like to address some points made in this thread because I find them to be horrendously misinformed. Arguments to why this Pokemon is "ass" or "mid" revolve on one of these basis:
this post sums it up, even with the set that's probably being used here. i had no way of countering those final gambit spams, no matter what i did. that tyranitar? if i'm forced to stalling out that pokémon just so that i'm prepared to face a sand rushing demon, then i'd rather just Not!

will it slow down when terastalize disappears? god knows. but it's still annoying to deal with.
 
Having laddered quite a bit I think some of the things that initially appeared pretty busted are actually pretty workable. Fire Fish in particular.

Chien-Pao does absurd damage and I think the Black Glasses set is very strong since you get to maintain some durability. With Tera Dark you smash everything and I've often found myself in endgames where I nearly obliterate 4-5 mons with Suckers and Crunches. Unboosted though there are some things that can sponge a hit and running SD makes me feel like I'm missing crucial coverage (usually Sacred Sword). Also Icicle Crash continues to be one of the biggest game bandits on the ladder.
Overall though, both playing with an against this I never felt as though it was particularly broken. Seems manageable right now since the meta is infested with priority and helmets. I don't think its quickban worthy but probably should be suspected.


Palafin initially seemed pretty manageable to me. The Choice Band sets do a ton of damage but you really should be packing Water resists either because they're just good mons (Roaring Moon, Pult) or because grass types are actually pretty solid right now (Breloom, Amoonguss, and Tera Grass Volcarona come to mind). Clodsire, Corv, and Pex also do pretty well into it.
...all this, however, only applies to the Choice Band set. The Bulk Up set on the other hand is some of the craziest bullshit I've ever used. I just Shed Tail into this thing and sweep teams on turn 2, it's absolutely absurd.

fin to win (Palafin) @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt

This is the set I'm using right now. Obviously EVs could use some work but this thing scams so many wins. If any Palafin set is broken its this one.


All of the Roaring Moon sets are initially manageable but I have been in many situations where there's nothing I can do and I just get obliterated by their favorite Tera Type because its very hard to tell what it's packing. I've seen Ground, Flying, Steel, Dragon, Dark, and Fire and all of them seem like pretty good options for it. Not sure what exactly we are supposed to be using to check this beast lmao. I think this is definitely quickban worthy w/ the intention of suspecting it later.

Flutter Mane is pretty busted. I've seen a couple things that kind of check it depending on the set but nothing really consistent except Garganacl and SpDef Whirlwind Hippowdon. Right now most people seem to be running Speed Booster Energy, but Specs and Sub CM are also really strong. I worry for my future sanity if people start running Sub Wisp Hex sets. Probably the most quickban-worthy mon in my opinion.

Cyclizar is a neat little mon. Shed Tail's cool and its a great enabler but I don't think its particularly broken. Absolutely piss bulk so bringing it in healthy enough to use Shed Tail more than once can be tough. Of course, with absolutely insane sweepers like Roaring Moon and Palafin available once can usually be enough but that's more on the sweepers than Cyclizar I think.

I have not run into nearly as many Iron Valiants or Houndstones nor have I been abusing them myself so I don't think I have a really solid opinion on those yet. Houndstone seems pretty busted and Valiant seems really reasonable actually.


On the other side of discussion, here are some sets I think are a lot of fun (please don't criticize my EVs I just wanted to play the game okay):

Skill Machine (Espathra) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Calm Mind
- Tera Blast
- Stored Power
Hilarious scam machine

THE LOOM IS BACK (Breloom) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Spore
- Seed Bomb / Leech Seed
- Mach Punch
Haven't seen anyone else running it, but Poison Heal Breloom is actually immortal. It lets some stuff in and if you want the maximum mileage out of Poison Heal / Leech Seed I think protect is a must. Mach Punch OHKOs Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu (after rocks for this one) even without Technician so it can still be emergency insurance. Also a decent response to Banded Palafin and Tera Water makes for some fun defensive shenanigans against the myriad Ices.

there's like a million viable dragon dance sweepers and dragons and you know what they hate
corviknight
which means its drag mag time. nobody is running shed shell so it is absolutely free. really useful in particular for extreme killer dragonite
You should run a Tera Type capable of hitting Clodsire because otherwise you're getting walled. Ground is pretty good.
 

plznostep

Flittle Fanatic
is a Community Contributor
Heya People! I wanted to make a post about a mon that i've been using lately that i haven't seen a lot of people talk about, and is actually really decent and has good synergy with two amazing mons, Chien Pao and Bexcailbur.

SLOWKING!!!
:ss/slowking:

Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception

Slowking actually got a really nice tool this gen despite losing teleport; Chilly Reception. This basically acts like a pseudo-teleport meaning that Slowking can still offer teams Future Sight support + a pivot into a dangerous offensive threat. Chien Pao really appreciates the extra bulk that snow gives it and Slowking can give it this + a free switch in, which can be devastating to the opposing team. Bexcailbur also really appreciates this since it has even better bulk then Chien Pao and can use this to set up and sweep. It also acts as a decent check to Quaquaval if you were to run a more physically bulky set, and Regenerator is always a great ability to have to keep it healthy.

Slowking did lose Scald this gen sadly, so im running Thunder Wave to try and make it less passive so i can punish set up sweepers or mons like Flutter Mane switching into me with a para instead of a burn. I usually choose Fairy on my Slowking since its just naturally a good defensive typing and also can be used to make a once super effective dark move on it now resisted, creating a good mix up for it. It also has benefitted a lot from mons losing Knock Off as Dark Type Coverage. Of course, Slowking also fits on many Snow teams, probably being their main setter since Abomasnow is the only mon with Snow Warning now and Abomasnow isn't exactly known to be an OU quality mon.

I usually use Slowking in a defensive core with Corviknight + Slowking + Clodsire due to Clodsire being able to take on electric moves for Slowking and Corviknight while Slowking can deal with Psychic and Water type attackers that hit Clodsire super effectively. It generally works decently and when Flutter Mane is gone, you might want to consider adding Ting-Lu to this core as Slowking + Ting-Lu also syngerize pretty well together, but as i said, Flutter Mane's stabs are able to hit both Slowking and Ting-Lu super effectively. Clodsire has a better MU vs Flutter Mane (although not too great) so atm i use that with Slowking.

I hope you people give Slowking a try, it certainly has some merits in this meta via supporting two top tier Pokemon and i've really enjoyed my experience with this mon,
 
Been just fucking around so far, didn't break through 1200 because I just wanted try random shit out. Someone got a team they would want to share with which you can ladder a bit?
 

earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Community Contributor


My initial impressions of the metagame is, outside of the obviously broken stuff like Last Respects, Flutter Mane, and Chien-Pao, is that Tera is making offensive mons just way, way too powerful overall. While there are some funny defensive applications, the most effective Tera moments I've seen have been using the mechanic as an absurdly juiced Hidden Power that doesn't just lure counters, but straight up turns them into bait. There was one time a Gholdengo became normal to dodge a Shadow Ball, at no actual offensive cost. That's fucked up. I think it should be the first thing on the chopping block after all the obvious ubers are dealt with.

In other news, I've been enjoying this bug, it's another great anti-meta priority clicker to deal with all of the broken fastmons. First Impression hits like a nuke, it's a great lead to deal with all the morons who turn 1 flip turn their Palafins.

SLUGGER (Slither Wing) @ Silver Powder
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz / Will-O-Wisp / Morning Sun
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Of the Radar threats, I think Flutter Mane is easily the most insane and I'm not surprised to see pretty much universal consensus on the mon. Take Spectrier and give it unresisted coverage and I don't think it's surprising we reached this conclusion.

Palafin is probably the weakest of the Radar mons. That first turn can be quite hard to get without a slow pivot or a shed tail as Zero form has (nearly) zero bulk. It also kinda feels like you're giving them a free turn because the first time its in, you know its switching out 90% of the time). I do understand the Dracovish comparisons (big oongaboonga water moves). Mon is very good but I don't think it crosses the line into broke.
 
Palafin is weird territory for me. In some games, it does nothing at all, while in others it becomes a Tera Water curbstomping machine. I feel as if it has the potential to be very good, and while I disagree with it being banned right now, I definitely see it potentially busting faces once the meta slows down a tad and a few other threats are out of the picture.
 
I decided I wanted to get somewhat decent at the meta before making a post like this. After reaching #2 on the ladder & playing a sizable amount of games (68), I now feel comfortable giving my thoughts on every single Pokemon that Finchinator placed on his "On The Radar" post. Great post by the way. I will be categorizing each Pokemon from this post with one of 3 options: Quickban, Suspect Test, & Balanced.

View attachment 466909Quickban

Before I get into why I chose "Quickban", I'd like to address some points made in this thread because I find them to be horrendously misinformed. Arguments to why this Pokemon is "ass" or "mid" revolve on one of these basis:Using Houndstone is a win-win situation no matter how you look at it. If one of your members die, your Last Respects is powered up. If you're 15 turns into a game and none of your Pokemon are dead, that's good. You're winning the game! If slow play is not your style, there are plenty of Pokemon that can do a ton of work quickly before dying. Glimmora is, in my opinion, the best suicide lead to date (bar maybe Deoxys-S) and consistently gets up Spikes, Toxic Spikes, significant chip with its strong Power Gem, and/or poisons with Mortal Spin. A lot of the Paradox Pokemon are also very brainless "set up and attack a bunch of times until you die"-- Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, Flutter Mane, etc... If you're using good Pokemon, by the time Houndstone comes out, it'll be a field day. These Memento / Final Gambit spam teams you see on the ladder are simply shitty gimmicks used by lazy builders.Sand is the best weather this generation. It has a positive match-up vs Sun which is really popular and a neutral match-up vs Rain (rare). Tyranitar and Hippowdon are also decent Pokemon by themselves unlike Torkoal and Pelipper. There is very little cost in using Smooth Rock as your item since Knock Off distribution is at an all-time low. Houndstone is extremely easy to support.Unaware does not in fact ignore Last Respect's boosts. Not sure if you even played this metagame (not trying to be disrespectful, just couldn't find any other way to phrase this), but physically defensive Corviknight is 2HKO'd 35.5% of the time after Stealth Rock. This is only with 2 party members dead. If 3 party members are dead, it is cleanly two-shot (with or without Stealth Rock). And that's another thing: hazards are very easy to keep up in this metagame. Whether that is Gholdengo, players making high risk-high reward switches to spinblock, or the insane powercreep this generation where even one turn can cost the game...

The rest of the arguments I see are mainly focused on how Houndstone dies to priority. I was in this camp until I tried this set that Ox the Fox and his crew were hyping up for hours on end this morning in chat. After using this set, I can say without certain that this is the only good Houndstone set. And it's broken:

Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Last Respects
- Body Press
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Items like Choice Band and Life Orb are extremely overkill and unnecessary when Last Respects kills everything unboosted in a 3v3 scenario. With Will-O-Wisp, you defeat Sucker Punch users such as Chien-Pao and Kingambit. Will-O-Wisp also has amazing applications early-game where you might be forced to bring Houndstone in during a 6v6 and 5v6 & neutralize a threat when your Last Respects is weaker. Protect is the best option in the last slot because it lets you scout Choice-locked attacks like Flutter Mane's Shadow Ball and Palafin's CB Jet Punch (needs Tera to 1-shot by the way). Leftovers + Protect also keep this Pokemon at a consistently high amount of HP, meaning non-super effective priority such as Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and the aforementioned Jet Punch will fail to pick you off. Houndstone has 72 / 100 defenses. That is very good for a Pokemon as cracked as this. Tera-Fighting is also beautiful typing to switch to in a pinch and it boosts Body Press's damage output for Pokemon such as Blissey. Overall, this Pokemon is very unhealthy, extremely easy to support, and has no counters bar trash like Wigglytuff. Houndstone is by far the most broken Pokemon on the list and I highly advise the council to quickban this threat. banning Last Respects the move is dumb imo

View attachment 466924Quickban

Not going to lie. I was initially on the fence when it came to this Pokemon in practice. I found it quite manageable due to its abysmal Defense stat. Even some of the more passive Pokemon such as Clodsire's Earthquake do 60% to this thing, meaning if it can't kill what is in front of you, you're most likely dying or being limited to 2 more switches via Stealth Rock. This Pokemon is also very easy to check as well as it is OHKO'd by common priority from the likes of Chien-Pao, Palafin, Scizor, Kingambit,... and none of these are bad Pokemon on their own right. However, after thinking about it, I believe the metagame would be healthier without this Pokemon because of how restrictive it is in the teambuilder. The fact that I'm resorting myself to using mediocre sets like AV Iron Treads, Mirror Armor Corviknight, Heavy Slam Ting-Lu, Shadow Ball Blissey, etc... is a testament by itself. Being forced to invest a ton, if not max out, my SpD EV's onto Pokemon such as Toxapex and Clodsire is also another example of its restrictiveness. Flutter Mane has also adapted very quickly to recent metagame trends. Psyshock for Clodsire, Substitute for status, Tera-Fairy for Sucker Punch, and Energy Ball for Garganacl are all sets I've seen today that are not as horrendous as you think because all it needs is Shadow Ball and Moonblast to do what it does every game. I do think there are decent arguments one can make when it comes to anti-ban, but would I be mad if Flutter Mane got the boot this early into the meta? Probably not.

View attachment 466927Suspect Test


This will probably be the most controversial placing on my list (or maybe not since Baloor post got some good traction), but I don't think Chien-Pao is all that. When I first saw the leaks, my initial thoughts were "Jesus this is literally Weavile on steroids, no way it lasts." After playing with and against it though, I can say this Pokemon doesn't need any immediate tiering action. Sword of Ruin, while a cracked ability on paper, still manages to fall short in practice due to Chien-Pao's low base power moves. To give you a perspective on this, Crunch only does 30% to Corviknight. The lack of offensive utility is also very noticeable (Weavile had Knock Off, that's huge). The Heavy-Duty Boots set is definitely the best set in this metagame where hazards are extremely hard to remove / prevent, and Chien-Pao struggles to get off a Swords Dance without some type of Shed Tail / Memento support. Even after a Swords Dance, 3 slots are not enough to pick the optimal coverage. A set with Sucker Punch as your sole Dark stab is a disaster vs bulky Water-types, while giving up Sacred Sword means you're comfortably checked by Pokemon such as Kingambit, Iron Treads, Baxcalibur, Tinkaton (not good but people do use it), and Quaquaval.

The metagame has also adapted VERY QUICKLY to Chien-Pao, whether that is the use of Dondozo, Tera Skeledirge, and Fairy Tera Avalugg (busted Pokemon fr) on stall or Pokemon such as Slither Wing, Choice Scarf Chi-Yu, or HP-invested Bulk Up Palafin sets on BO. None of these are bad sets by the way. Even if Chien-Pao was quickbanned, people would still use these sets. This is not like Flutter Mane where you're forced to use inferior EV spreads on Toxapex and Tyranitar. Also god forbid for when Revival Blessing is coded into the game. Pawmot will be an amazing check to it with Mach Punch.

Before I move on, let me get this straight that I am not saying Chien-Pao is balanced. I am still deciding that for myself. Choice Band sets, different Tera-types, Taunt... even Chien-Pao itself can adapt as we are seeing as I literally type this post out. But as the metagame progresses, I think it's slowly becoming more clear that a quickban is unnecessary since it doesn't make the metagame unplayable like the former two and it should go through the regular testing process.

View attachment 466929Balanced


I find Palafin to be perfectly fine right now. It's a complete noob-killer and it punishes aimless play more than other Pokemon on this list. I also find it to have a lot of splashable checks such as Iron Bundle (no idea why people don't use this Pokemon with Boots more), Toxapex, Clodsire, Dragapult, Dragonite, etc... Palafin's ability to take a hit also makes it a healthy tier presence in preventing mindless set up sweeps from the likes of Chien-Pao, Iron Valiant, and Volcarona. The Bulk Up + Taunt set is definitely restrictive but it was only a couple hours into me using this set that I was running into stuff like Sludge Bomb Toxapex. "But hey using Sludge Bomb on Toxapex is an indicator to it being broken!" Yes, but also no. Toxapex has like no good attacking move so you might as well run something. Sludge Bomb isn't that much different from the shitty Liquidation set you were using earlier. Palafin users also always lead with the mediocre base form meaning the other player always has the advantage to capitalize early with hazards, Shed Tail, or a strong attack. While I do think that this Pokemon might become broken after the power creep is lowered with upcoming bans and Tera-Water-boosted Jet Punch can be dumb and clutch games from what would be unwinnable positions, as of right now I think it's completely fine.

View attachment 466930Suspect Test

This is by far the best abuser of Tera on the list. Tera-Steel lets you set up on Fairy-types and boost Iron Head to a point where it's not some shitty coverage move. Tera-Fire does the same as Steel but is used on Sun. Tera-Flying with Acrobatics lets you get through traditional checks and counters such as Great Tusk, Iron Hands, First Impression users, and Body Press Corviknight. Running +Speed Energy Booster allows you to bypass Ditto. But not sure if I'd agree with a quickban. Like Chien-Pao, the metagame has adapted and it can't run every set I mentioned at once. Offensive teams tend to stack up on a lot of strong priority and more defensive playstyles have decent options in Whirlwind Ting-Lu and using Tera reactively to deal with it. I'd personally wait and see how the metagame progresses.

View attachment 466932
Suspect Test*

Cyclizar is by far the biggest culprit when it comes to HO's over-dominance in the metagame. The move Shed Tail is supposed to be a high-cost and high-reward move as we see with Orthworm, but Cyclizar's access to Regenerator completely dances around that flaw. Cyclizar is, in my opinion, why Pokemon such as Taunt + Bulk Up Palafin and Roaring Moon seem more cracked than they actually are. Cyclizar teams are pretty much all the same. They lead Palafin, switch to Grimmsnarl, set up screens, Parting Shot into Cyclizar, then Shed Tail into some set up Pokemon and win. If a suspect went up today, I'd probably vote ban. It's the same boring sequence every game and even when you know what it's going to do, you really can't do much to stop it unless you have phazing / play like a complete god. Why didn't I didn't label it as a quickban then? I think it's important to let the metagame breath after banning the two Ghost-types, then we can look at it again / put up a test.

View attachment 466933
Balanced

Iron Valiant is good but I never found it broken. In fact, I actually find it to be a healthy tier presence because of it's quad-resistance to Sucker Punch, making it a great way to stop a +2 Chien-Pao or Kingambit from spiraling out of control. In terms of flaws, this Pokemon always has a heavy case of 4MSS. If you go Knock Off, you're walled by Toxapex and Clodsire. If you go Zen Headbutt, you're walled by Gholdengo. Special sets lack a lot of power to outright win games and Iron Valiant's frailty means it drops to a lot of priority that isn't Sucker Punch. I think Iron Valiant is frankly underexplored if anything. Tera-sets could have potential. We'd have to wait and see. For now I'd say it's 100% balanced though.

Anyways, if you got this far, I'd like to thank you for reading! I will be making a post on Tera later this week but tl;dr I'd like to see it play it for weeks, probably months in fact. I think it adds a really cool dynamic to this game and not in an unhealthy way like Dynamax did.
Incredible post! Love your takes
 
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