Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[PixelKirby]

I’m pretty disappointed with the bans and think it’ll only contribute to a homogenous, one-note metagame where Paradox Sweepers blend together and do more-or-less the same thing.

Houndstone had over a dozen counters, apparently that wasn’t enough. Even worse, they banned the mon rather than the move. Generally disappointing decisions all-around.

 

[Pokedom10]

Let's talk about Rain.



I know. no one wants to talk about rain. because it SUCKS rn.



These are the three viable swift swim abusers. They're not the only swift swimmers, but I dare you to make Lumineon the star of your show. Barraskewda is rough. Pretty much the only thing it got this gen was being able to Tera-Water itself for a boost. It doesn't really Tera in any other way, I guess you could Tera-Ground to block an electric hit but it needs the power boost. Drednaw is okay. It has Shell Smash so how bad can it really be anyways. Beartic I actually like quite a lot. Mainly because it can use Tera-stuff better than just about anything else Rain has rn. You can Tera-Water for big damage or Tera-Fighting to resist something that would normally threaten to revenge kill you. Because seriously, changing your type from bad to not bad is so helpful. Beartic also functions pretty decent in Snow, which isn't common at all rn but with Iron Bundle around the corner anything helps. Beartic might honestly be the *best (see further below) Rain abuser right now. It's fun to use and very threatening in the right hands.


But now. sigh. we all knew this was coming



Look at the absolute massacre above this text right now. What defensive options does rain even have right now? You've got bulky Scizor who can't threaten common mons and can't get hazards off the field half the games its in because of Gholdengo. You've got Dragonite as a Multiscale wall - which lemme tell you. Dragonite does NOT want to be defensive in a Tera meta. It wants to Tera-Normal and kill everything. I guess you can run it as a shittier Zapdos bc it does actually get the holy trinity of Hurricane, Thunder, and a strong Water Move so you can Tera-Water or Tera-Electric and kinda make up for it. But that's a pretty big opportunity cost. And again you're just running it offensively. You can use Forretress but Forretress is so very very passive and weak, but without it Rain doesn't even have a good way to get hazards on the field unless you run Stealth Rock on Drednaw, which you don't want to be running on Drednaw because you'd rather be smashing. It is a poor man's Ferrothorn and just leaves a gaping hole in your heart that reminds you of what you lost.

So... what did this generation do to help Rain? What did it give us? I mean they gave Sun 7 different abusers that don't even need Sun to be the best. One of which was so broken it was banned as I was writing this! So. What did Rain get?



remember when i put an asteric next to beartic. this is why. this shit is getting banned. it's just ash greninja in rain where it doesn't fucking need rain but in rain it takes a broken mon and makes it even more broken.



This isn't honestly that bad. It's really strong outside of Rain but in Rain you can run its usual NP+3 attacks and instead of Focus Blast in the last slot you can use Thunder, which hits exactly 0 pokemon harder than focus blast but actually does hit those pokemon and has a good chance to paralyze which is huge for other Rain abusers.



Grass/Dark snail thing with an interesting psuedo-Intimidate ability, good bulk and Knock Off+Leech Seed. It's not a Ferrothorn replacement at all but it functions.

So really Rain comps are like. Pelipper to set rain. Palafin until it gets banned, and then use Beartic maybe. And then four other mons who can kind of use Rain sometimes. Some combination of Dragonite, Forretress, Scizor, Gholdengo, Wo-Chien, you can use Cyclizar until that also gets banned. And that's literally it. You're honestly better off just using Pelipper and Palafin and then just building a normal team that enjoys having the pair in the back to clean up late. But then Palafin will get banned and then what? Beartic is nowhere NEAR Palafin's threat level and this is coming from Resident Niche Mon Enjoyer. Rain simply cannot keep up with what it has right now. It gets even worse when you consider that Sun is over here with Great Tusk and Roaring Moon ready to go. (beartic is actually not that bad against either of them btw. but rain has to be up which you gotta play REAL GOOD to do.) Your opportunity cost of running Rain over literally any normal playstyle is staggering.

tl;dr. sad faces in the chat. rain got absolutely gutted. run pelipper+abuser and 4 regular mons instead.

 

[Bugboy]

i'm not really fond of the idea just because it's very clearly sidestepping the issue. it's acknowledging that tera is bad for the meta but instead of removing the problem it's putting a bandaid on it. not to mention that it's perfectly possible for tera to be problematic even after this restriction is put in place, which could lead to even more weird restrictions placed on it.

Definitely possible, but I suspect with knowledge of all the tera types, the better player will almost always win. It can always be banned fully afterwards if it remains uncompetitive. We have 3 years of this meta coming, let’s be a bit patient here.

and yes it is a bandaid, but if that bandaid results in a great meta, I’m all for it.

 

[Mewthree69]

Physdef toxic heal breloom can handle him quite well, try it:
Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Mach Punch
- Spore
- Close Combat
- Tera Blast/Seed Bomb

As soon as Sleep Clause is activated, it actually just loses 1v1 to Palafin, who is bulky enough to Bulk Up three times in front of it, then press Drain Punch twice. Amoonguss is likely much better at handling Palafin than Breloom, since it hits its spdef with Giga Drain and is resistant to Drain Punch.

Calcs

0 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Palafin: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Palafin: 114-134 (28.2 - 33.1%) -- 84.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. +3 252 HP / 0 Def Palafin: 90-108 (22.2 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252+ Atk Palafin Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 218-257 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
(26.9 - 31.9% recovered)

 

[VannAccessible]

Dudes, Sand Rush was not the issue on Houndstone. I was running a bulky Fluffy set on a dedicated Trick Room team. It wrecked shit, one shotting Dark types if it was the last or second to last poke on the team, no boosting item required, and fully capable of tanking hits.

Last Respects was the absolutely issue. That move has no place in OU.

When Bascegion drops, just ban the move, bc Fluffy Hounstone has cool defensive utility and won’t be an issue without LR

I think everyone agrees Flutter Mane was dumb.

 

[ChibiNyan]

I didn't think Houndstone was that problematic, but if he had to be banned then it made sense that it was the entire mon. In theory there could someday be a pokemon with this move where that isn't problematic, I suppose. I don't expect Basculegion to be that Pokemon tho, but the final Judgment can't be known until Gen 9 is "complete".

 

[5camp]

Let's talk about Rain.



I know. no one wants to talk about rain. because it SUCKS rn.



These are the three viable swift swim abusers. They're not the only swift swimmers, but I dare you to make Lumineon the star of your show. Barraskewda is rough. Pretty much the only thing it got this gen was being able to Tera-Water itself for a boost. It doesn't really Tera in any other way, I guess you could Tera-Ground to block an electric hit but it needs the power boost. Drednaw is okay. It has Shell Smash so how bad can it really be anyways. Beartic I actually like quite a lot. Mainly because it can use Tera-stuff better than just about anything else Rain has rn. You can Tera-Water for big damage or Tera-Fighting to resist something that would normally threaten to revenge kill you. Because seriously, changing your type from bad to not bad is so helpful. Beartic also functions pretty decent in Snow, which isn't common at all rn but with Iron Bundle around the corner anything helps. Beartic might honestly be the *best (see further below) Rain abuser right now. It's fun to use and very threatening in the right hands.


But now. sigh. we all knew this was coming



Look at the absolute massacre above this text right now. What defensive options does rain even have right now? You've got bulky Scizor who can't threaten common mons and can't get hazards off the field half the games its in because of Gholdengo. You've got Dragonite as a Multiscale wall - which lemme tell you. Dragonite does NOT want to be defensive in a Tera meta. It wants to Tera-Normal and kill everything. I guess you can run it as a shittier Zapdos bc it does actually get the holy trinity of Hurricane, Thunder, and a strong Water Move so you can Tera-Water or Tera-Electric and kinda make up for it. But that's a pretty big opportunity cost. And again you're just running it offensively. You can use Forretress but Forretress is so very very passive and weak, but without it Rain doesn't even have a good way to get hazards on the field unless you run Stealth Rock on Drednaw, which you don't want to be running on Drednaw because you'd rather be smashing. It is a poor man's Ferrothorn and just leaves a gaping hole in your heart that reminds you of what you lost.

So... what did this generation do to help Rain? What did it give us? I mean they gave Sun 7 different abusers that don't even need Sun to be the best. One of which was so broken it was banned as I was writing this! So. What did Rain get?



remember when i put an asteric next to beartic. this is why. this shit is getting banned. it's just ash greninja in rain where it doesn't fucking need rain but in rain it takes a broken mon and makes it even more broken.



This isn't honestly that bad. It's really strong outside of Rain but in Rain you can run its usual NP+3 attacks and instead of Focus Blast in the last slot you can use Thunder, which hits exactly 0 pokemon harder than focus blast but actually does hit those pokemon and has a good chance to paralyze which is huge for other Rain abusers.



Grass/Dark snail thing with an interesting psuedo-Intimidate ability, good bulk and Knock Off+Leech Seed. It's not a Ferrothorn replacement at all but it functions.

So really Rain comps are like. Pelipper to set rain. Palafin until it gets banned, and then use Beartic maybe. And then four other mons who can kind of use Rain sometimes. Some combination of Dragonite, Forretress, Scizor, Gholdengo, Wo-Chien, you can use Cyclizar until that also gets banned. And that's literally it. You're honestly better off just using Pelipper and Palafin and then just building a normal team that enjoys having the pair in the back to clean up late. But then Palafin will get banned and then what? Beartic is nowhere NEAR Palafin's threat level and this is coming from Resident Niche Mon Enjoyer. Rain simply cannot keep up with what it has right now. It gets even worse when you consider that Sun is over here with Great Tusk and Roaring Moon ready to go. (beartic is actually not that bad against either of them btw. but rain has to be up which you gotta play REAL GOOD to do.) Your opportunity cost of running Rain over literally any normal playstyle is staggering.

tl;dr. sad faces in the chat. rain got absolutely gutted. run pelipper+abuser and 4 regular mons instead.

This is Kilowattrel erasure and I will not stand for it!

(I've tried Kilowattrel on a rain team in OU and it's not too shabby but its stats are just a little too low for what it's being asked to do. Might be better in a few months when the broken are banned)

 

[Violet Raichu]

Dudes, Sand Rush was not the issue on Houndstone. I was running a bulky Fluffy set on a dedicated Trick Room team. It wrecked shit, one shotting Dark types if it was the last or second to last poke on the team, no boosting item required, and fully capable of tanking hits.

Last Respects was the absolutely issue. That move has no place in OU.

When Bascegion drops, just ban the move, bc Fluffy Hounstone has cool defensive utility and won’t be an issue without LR

I think everyone agrees Flutter Mane was dumb.

Hard agree. I've seen Fluffy Houndstone with sticky web do the exact same thing. In the interest of not doing complex bans I would simply move it to Ubers, but that's just me

 

[Taka]

On the topic of tera, I already said that this was a picture made of macaronis and glue, one thing that i have to say tho, is that the way you have to bait the tera hat first and then use your hat, is similar to D e f e n s i v e D i n a m a x, and you guys know how bad that argument got

Honestly, wholeheartedly agree with this point. Having to tera to something defensively hoping you have a type to match it is really risky. Yes, you should have a way to handle every possible type, but teams are already struggling to check this very offensive metagame. Having to check specific pokemon and hope you have the right check for a specific tera type for them as well means that you are often heavily left lacking in the builder, which makes the meta more matchup fishy. Hopefully more about the flaws of tera are exposed now that houndstone and flutter mane are gone.

 

[lxzdzj]

Not saying it’s the right choice or whatever but the idea of showing tera types in team preview isn’t necessarily a complex ban (or a ban at all lol).

There is also precedent mechanically for this sort of change. When a mon is banned, the way it works on cartridge is both players have a gentleman’s agreement to not use that Pokémon. With team preview tera types, it works the same way. Both players have a gentleman’s agreement to provide a list of their tera types to each other before battle.

I honestly think it’s a pretty elegant and non-obtrusive nerf.

Totally agree with this. Smogon's ban list is already a gentleman's agreement for cartridge players.

I implore the OU council to consider testing Tera Clauses before testing an outright ban.


Some ideas for Tera Clauses:

1. Only the first mon in team preview can Terastallize.

2. Any mon that Terastallizes cannot hold an item.

3. Tera types are displayed.


Terastallize truly feels like it can be a fun mechanic if balanced properly. Of course it can turn out to be like Baton Pass, but in my opinion it would be worth the effort. We have never seen such a unique, interesting mechanic before that can allow for so much creativity. It would be such a shame if it is forever gone in 6 weeks without being explored fully.

 

[escarlata]

Anything to check the Dolphin screams desperation honestly. It's explicitly broken and should be kicked out ASAP

Not disagreeing that Palafin is broken by any means and just wanted to put the spotlight one something that has put in massive work in keeping my teams together in the face of everything crazy, who just happened to be perhaps the best answer to the BU Taunt Dolphin currently, and is definitely something people struggling with it can try out.

For all I care, ban the stupid Dolphin so I don’t have to run DTail on PDef Gyarados anymore. I want the freedom to run Iron Head for Chien-Pao and Valiant instead.

 

[DerKawaiiser]

This is Kilowattrel erasure and I will not stand for it!

(I've tried Kilowattrel on a rain team in OU and it's not too shabby but its stats are just a little too low for what it's being asked to do. Might be better in a few months when the broken are banned)

Agreed, I think Kilowattrel can have it's niche when a few broken things have left OU for good.

 

[Tungdil]

With so few available Defoggers (the best being followed maybe by and ), I think Rapid Spin is much more common than in previous gens. My prediction is that Spin-blockers will have their place again, as it was in gens 3-5.

 

[notshadydragon]

Awesome question, yes.

Last Respects vs Houndstone is a really interesting topic. Normally when only one Pokemon gets a move or only one Pokemon is problematic with a move, we default to banning the Pokemon as there is no way to alienate the move as a broken element. However, we are in a position where we know the move Last Respects will get greater distribution with the release of Pokemon Home with strong abusers, which leads us to a crossroads: can we tier based off of future hypothesizes for the sake of minimizing current collateral damage of bans? It is still being discussed, but it is possible right now that we take action on Last Respects or Houndstone in the future depending on how discussions and gameplay go.

Even though I'm not the biggest Houndstone fan, I was shocked to see it banned after reviewing the quick-ban waves.

In my opinion, arguing that it is safer to just ban the mons with Last Respects as we have no other Last Respects abuser to compare it with, thus leaving Last Respects as a move banned as a "future hypothesis," doesn't make sense. There is no argument to be made against the fact that Last Respects is what makes Houndstone broken.

 

[Finchinator]

Even though I'm not the biggest Houndstone fan, I was shocked to see it banned after reviewing the quick-ban waves.

In my opinion, arguing that it is safer to just ban the mons with Last Respects as we have no other Last Respects abuser to compare it with, thus leaving Last Respects as a move banned as a "future hypothesis," doesn't make sense. There is no argument to be made against the fact that Last Respects is what makes Houndstone broken.

Ok...but other signature moves make other Pokemon broken and we do not see the moves banned there. That is not the point.

I personally was fine banning the move, but not for your inconsistent logic. Because it will also prove to be the common thread in overpowering Basc. upon home's release, thus minimizing collateral. But we will have to wait for then.

 

[quziel]

As soon as Sleep Clause is activated, it actually just loses 1v1 to Palafin, who is bulky enough to Bulk Up three times in front of it, then press Drain Punch twice. Amoonguss is likely much better at handling Palafin than Breloom, since it hits its spdef with Giga Drain and is resistant to Drain Punch.

Calcs

0 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Palafin: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Palafin: 114-134 (28.2 - 33.1%) -- 84.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Breloom Seed Bomb vs. +3 252 HP / 0 Def Palafin: 90-108 (22.2 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 252+ Atk Palafin Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 218-257 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
(26.9 - 31.9% recovered)

Fwiw this BU Palafin beats Amoonguss 1v1, to the point of setting up vs it.

Palafin @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Jet Punch
- Taunt
- Drain Punch

----

Bans are good, I think a relatively conservative and iterative approach makes a lot of sense when you have a ton of new mons who all interact with eachother's checks differently. I don't fully agree with a Shed Tail / Cyclizar ban, cause while I do think the move is very strong in a vacuum, in practice I find that its only really able to maintain the sub when paired with Dragonite. Most other Shed Tail abusers tend to get the sub broken without the benefit of Multiscale. However that could be due to me using a ton of very offensive mons.

 

[sufys]

Ok...but other signature moves make other Pokemon broken and we do not see the moves banned there. That is not the point.

I personally was fine banning the move, but not for your inconsistent logic. Because it will also prove to be the common thread in overpowering Basc. upon home's release, thus minimizing collateral. But we will have to wait for then.

What logic were you fine banning the move for?

 

[Finchinator]

What logic were you fine banning the move for?

The move is clearly what makes Houndstone broken. Given the nature of the move, we can strongly speculate it will do the same for Basc. upon the release of Home. The speculative nature of that was not permitted, but I feel it would save the formality and minimize collateral.

 

[ausma]

In the post with the new bans, this line stood out to me. Initially, I assumed most of council must be in favor of a Houndstone ban rather than a Last Respects ban, but if this were the case, a line about "talking with tiering administration" wouldn't really have been necessary. Does this mean a majority of OU council was in favor of a Last Respects ban? Finchinator for the sake of transparency, could we be told what council members' opinions were regarding banning Houndstone vs Last Respects?

I prefer banning the move personally here given the future projections, but was not allowed to because Home is not out yet with more distribution and it's technically speculative. The consensus of others was not clear, but we were told to focus on the Pokemon prior to our vote yesterday termi

@ this: i’m also in the camp for banning last respects, it’s just consistent with tiering policy to focus on houndstone until/if we see another pokemon with last respects

 

[Local Dog]

Flutter Mane banned, okay, guess that makes sense, but Houndstone? I feel like there was an overfixation on the max BP of Last Respects and too much of a comparison with Vish

Can't get past Normals, needs Sand too work, gets shit on by hazards and can ultimately be played around and against no problem. Priority is very prevalent right now and considering the situation you have to be in to get LR to work, yeah no, that thing wasn't broken at all

 

[Pabloaram]

@ this: i’m also in the camp for banning last respects, it’s just consistent with tiering policy to focus on houndstone until/if we see another pokemon with last respects

So not baning Last Respect until Baculegion drops.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Alright, first wave of bans is up, so what I wanna do now is go over what’s still left to ban (there’s a lot lol). I’m not gonna spend too long on why these things are broken since everyone who’s been watching this thread knows why, but what I do want is to go over when and how I think these will be banned.


Only reason this didn’t go slate 1 is cause general consensus on it being broken only picked up steam after when the council vote probably happened. Bulk Up is nuts; there’s no defensive counterplay besides big Amongus (forma de Giga Drain) and no offensive counterplay once Palafin sets up. I think this is gone with the next wave.


No walls, almost no offensive counterplay. This is Kyurem on steroids. Zero chance it stays OU, and I’ll bet it also goes in the next wave of bans.


Even in a less offensive meta, I still think it’s going to take a while for Orthworm to shine, so for now I think Cyclizar is going to come up before Shed Tail. This mon is absurd, it’s already been said why, but basically any well-built Shed Tail HO only needs Sub to go up once to win immediately, and Cyclizar gets far more than just one opportunity to click Shed Tail, while having the speed tier to make its pivoting difficult to contest. There’s no way this stays.

Booster Energy
I think this breaks enough mons in enough tiers for it to be reasonable for it to get gone. The vast majority of Paradoxes are going to end up BL if this item stays legal, and generally I just think it’s stupid.

Tera
Sorry not sorry, this is gone by next month. Unpredictable, removes defensive counterplay to offensive mons, provides means of dodging offensive answers, has absolutely no opportunity cost, gives super STAB with same-type Tera. There’s so much wrong with this mechanic, no matter how fun it may be, and I hope its supporters will be able to settle with an OM.


From this point on, I’ll be assuming Booster and Tera aren’t banned, since most of these will need to be reevaluated without them. Maybe this is fine in a post-DLC meta, but as of right now it has absolutely no switchins and is an absolute nightmare to handle for fat. You’ll notice this point a lot going down the list.


The biggest offender of the aforementioned mechanics. If neither of them goes in the next couple ban waves, I expect this to go instead.


One of the most absurd fat breakers ever. Specs Tera Fire has no defensive counterplay and this mon is absolutely absurd once the meta slows down enough for it to get going consistently. This will probably get suspected down the line.


Either this or Drought goes eventually methinks. Like it’s been mentioned above, Weather was not made to be used in this way, and particularly after Houndstone’s ban, Sun just has so much over other weathers it’s not even funny.


This mon is probably broken without Tera, but at least while Tera exists it has to go. Being able to Tera Fighting, Fire, Electric, or whatever other type you want and completely change your set of answers on a whim is uncompetitive and really stands out on this mon in particular. Definitely worth suspecting down the line.


Very very stupid mon on hazard-stack offense (already an incredibly strong playstyle this gen). I’m not sure if this will get enough ban traction to be suspected before DLC, but I expect it to go eventually.

Revival Blessing
Hard to tell when there’s no way to use it rn, but in theory this is very broken on offense, being able to bring back any breaker you want as soon as their checks are gone. Will probably go eventually, but I can’t say anything for certain before it’s added properly.


Booster Energy breaks this imo. Not much else to it.


Assorted mons broken by Tera. As long as council attempts to keep Tera legal, these and more will need to go.

There’s probably more and I think I forgot a few, but these are the main mons I expect to go in the future. Also anyone whining about the Houndstone ban needs to look at the bigger picture. The mon was 100% broken and I’d rather it left now than later, though I will agree there were a few more pressing issues, but generally I’m glad I don’t have to run a ghost resist and 2 priority options on every team anymore.

 

[Ducktrio]

Bro really forgave flip turn/u turn/Wave crash just to steal my lunch money
On another topic, we dont know yet who is the second mon gone but with Flutter Mane out of the picture, what are the mons that would love it and see more use out of it, in my opinion, probably defensive mons like bliss, Goldhengo, and offensive frail mons like Pult, also Frosted Flakes tiger, Wallmart Mega Gallade and Moonbird be looking real tasty rn fr fr no cap on god sheeeeeeeeesh

Yep, since all of these moves do not hit Pex/Amoongus/Quag/Clod/Dondozo anyways and Jet Punch is the only water move it'll ever truly need.

On the other topic:
Now that Flutter Mane is gone, let me introduce his replacement:

Flutter Geist

Flutter Geist (Polteageist) @ White Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 40 Def / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast
- Strength Sap

40 Defense EVs allow it to guaranteed live a Jet Punch from neutral Palafin.

 

[Mewthree69]

Well with Flutter Mane gone, it might be worth looking into Mismagius this gen. It's movepool is vast this gen, but something that I find interesting is it's interaction with the electric tera type functionally making it have 0 weaknesses. 105 is a respectable speed stat and it is immune to spikes. Will it be a solid OU mon? I can't be sure on that, but the idea of a mon that has 0 weaknesses is pretty interesting.

I would also like to add that thanks to Orthworms ability, Earth Eater, it also has this unique no weakness combo with Tera type electric

Yep, since all of these moves do not hit Pex/Amoongus/Quag/Clod/Dondozo anyways and Jet Punch is the only water move it'll ever truly need.

On the other topic:
Now that Flutter Mane is gone, let me introduce his replacement:

Flutter Geist

Flutter Geist (Polteageist) @ White Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 40 Def / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Tera Blast
- Strength Sap

40 Defense EVs allow it to guaranteed live a Jet Punch from neutral Palafin.

I think you guys completely forgot about Dragapult lmao.

 

[notshadydragon]

Ok...but other signature moves make other Pokemon broken and we do not see the moves banned there. That is not the point.

I personally was fine banning the move, but not for your inconsistent logic. Because it will also prove to be the common thread in overpowering Basc. upon home's release, thus minimizing collateral. But we will have to wait for then.

So, if I understand correctly.

With that comment, you were trying to convey that you're fine with banning the move as well. However, since Houndstone is the sole owner of Last Respects, claiming that it is what makes Houndstone broken is logistically equivalent to claiming the same about other Pokemon with strong signature moves. Therefore, you suggests that we wait until Basculegion is released to establish this, even though it will undoubtedly be what breaks Basculegion?