For me the most evil team run Revival Blessing and Defiant Ape. HP does not matter on Grimmsnarl and being able to do it twice is crazy with Screens
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Shed Tail seems like a bit of a problem, should it be banned or Cyclizar? Since Orthworm is very slow, and doesn’t have Regenerator, it’s much less of a problem on that mon, yet for Cycli you can just lead it, Shed Tail to Dragonite, set up 2 free DD’s and most of the time ko about 3 to 6 mons. However, it's also definitely my favourite spinner in OU and it would be a shame to lose that part of the pokemon, if Cyclizar itself got banned.
The entire meta is still really confusing for me though, so I wouldn't be suprised to see other things happen. (Honestly I think Gen 8 meta was better, especially b4 DLC2 lol)
The entire meta is still really confusing for me though, so I wouldn't be suprised to see other things happen. (Honestly I think Gen 8 meta was better, especially b4 DLC2 lol)
If anything gets banned it should be cyclizar, orthworm will rarely get more than a single shed tail off without some good earthquake predicts and even if you do you’re still stuck using orthworm so you really need to make good use of that single sub pass because otherwise you’re essentially playing 5v6.
Compare that to cyclizar who has regenerator, is stupidly fast, and has a range of premium utility moves like knock off and rapid spin. It can afford to spam out shed tails every time it comes in because even if the sub gets immediately broken, you still got a risk-free pivot to your best Pokémon and cyclizar only lost a measly 17% of his hp that he can recover with u turn if he really wants. Being able to fish 5-6 shed tails to get the one that isn’t broken and leads to a sweep is really what’s degenerate tbh, I honestly don’t even think cyclizar is that good but it’s incredibly uncompetitive imo.
I have to chime in here too and absolutely agree, this bull is actually incredible! I've been trying a bunch of sample teams and new mons as well, and the incredible utility Tauros-PF provides is crazy. The feeling of relief I get now when I see Chien-Pao at preview knowing it can't really break past the bull is amazing, the burn support is lovely, and its surprisingly powerful Body Presses are just useful to throw around. I run 20 Speed on mine to get the jump on Adamant Breloom and Timid Magnezone/Sylveon. I'm only just starting to use it as of last night so I haven't had an opportunity to crack open some Screens yet. I just love how less afraid of random stupid things I am when I've got Red Bull on my side - particularly opposing HO structures, which it handles really well.
Tauros-Paldea-Fire @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Raging Bull
- Body Press
- Protect
- Will-O-Wisp
Been using aveyon's team with Paldean Fire-type Tauros in the OU Bazaar thread and I'm having a lot of fun using this Pokemon. PhysDef + Intimidate + Wisp lets it be a very hard stop to Chien-Pao, and can annoy Ting-Lu, the Paradox Donphans, and Garchomp with Tera Flying. Wisping them on the switch alone gives you a much better time vs them even without Tera Flying. Tera Normal Dragonite hates you, too, with Body Press becoming Super Effective vs it as well as the vulnerability vs Wisp. Raging Bull is also great vs the many Screens teams running around while hurting Gholdengo and Corviknight. Fire Tauros serves as a nice emergency check to Chi-Yu, too, since it resists both its STABs and OHKOes in return with Body Press, only really needing to fear something like Psychic or Modest Tera Fire Specs Overheat or Fire Blast.
tl;dr try Red Bull fr
I ran a hyper offensive team with lots of physical attackers and dual shed tail early in the meta, and had a lot of success with it... Until people discovered dondozo. This one Mon just completely invalidates pretty much every setup physical sweeper in the game aside from annihilape, and has made me really hesitant to use them now.
On another note, is anyone else discovering that assault vest is suddenly one of the best items in the game in the current meta? In the past, assault vest was always held back by the fact that pokemon who ran it would get hard walled by so much of the meta. It was very easy to switch in to pokemon that had no way to boost its attacking stats or had a move like toxic to deal damage over time.
Now, though, the biggest threats in the meta are insane special attackers with limited bulk/no recovery, and setup sweepers get walled by unaware dondozo and clodsire anyway. So being able to survive a hit and get a ko on something like chi yu or gholdengo can completely swing a game. I'm finding myself using multiple assault vests on every team I make, and the only thing restricting me from doing it more is the fact that I also really want heavy duty boots.
It's been a weird change, because I've found assault vest super disappointing in basically every other meta I've played, but here it's finally getting its chance to shine!
Alternatively, maybe it's just that all of them are dexited right now. Once they come back, they'll be just as good, honestly probably even better with Tera as an option (Tera Ice Koko :0).
edit: just realized rotom-w is the 4th one. mon barely missed the cutoff this month and everyone knows it would've made OU if not for new toy syndrome.
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After seeing Hydreigon put below its Paradox counterpart, I want to share a fairly spicy set.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb / Focus Sash / Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fire / Dragon
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / U-turn
• Taunts your Glimmora
• Rocks
• Refuses to elaborate further
• Leaves
Hydreigon inexplicably got Rocks this gen, and because of it is very uniquely positioned as a solid offensive rocker vs the current metagame. This set will probably fall off a lot once it loses the element of surprise, but a Prankster Taunt immune Pokemon with access to Taunt, Rocks, and a speed tier above Glimmora (along with immunity to often the only real attacking move Glimmora runs) often prevents these two flavor of teams from getting the start they're looking for. Grimmsnarl still gets one screen and can Spirit Break you if its running it, and Glimmora can threaten to stay in and Mortal Spin the rocks away (it won't, though) but it significantly hinders the plan A for these teams. It's not bad at keeping rocks on either, as Draco Meteor + Fire Blast blows away pretty much every common spinner and defogger except AV Tusk which isn't that common currently and can only even KO back with CC (I've only seen Press mixed Def AV so IDK if CC AV even exists).
Sash is also viable to guarantee better starts against Grimmsnarl at the cost of worse rolls vs Tusk. U-Turn is fine if you're planning to answer Spinners and Foggers with Gholdengo instead of Hydreigon itself and lets you run Dragon Fang for less recoil if you want I guess.
This definitely feels like a gimmick and somewhat relies on your opponent slightly misplaying into it, but it can absolutely pull through in some games.
Hydreigon @ Life Orb / Focus Sash / Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fire / Dragon
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / U-turn
• Taunts your Glimmora
• Rocks
• Refuses to elaborate further
• Leaves
Hydreigon inexplicably got Rocks this gen, and because of it is very uniquely positioned as a solid offensive rocker vs the current metagame. This set will probably fall off a lot once it loses the element of surprise, but a Prankster Taunt immune Pokemon with access to Taunt, Rocks, and a speed tier above Glimmora (along with immunity to often the only real attacking move Glimmora runs) often prevents these two flavor of teams from getting the start they're looking for. Grimmsnarl still gets one screen and can Spirit Break you if its running it, and Glimmora can threaten to stay in and Mortal Spin the rocks away (it won't, though) but it significantly hinders the plan A for these teams. It's not bad at keeping rocks on either, as Draco Meteor + Fire Blast blows away pretty much every common spinner and defogger except AV Tusk which isn't that common currently and can only even KO back with CC (I've only seen Press mixed Def AV so IDK if CC AV even exists).
Sash is also viable to guarantee better starts against Grimmsnarl at the cost of worse rolls vs Tusk. U-Turn is fine if you're planning to answer Spinners and Foggers with Gholdengo instead of Hydreigon itself and lets you run Dragon Fang for less recoil if you want I guess.
This definitely feels like a gimmick and somewhat relies on your opponent slightly misplaying into it, but it can absolutely pull through in some games.
Grimmsnarl on its own doesnt seem to be the problem. But the combination of it with Shed Tail and the new extremly strong mons that are so prevalent, still there is ways to deal with (Dragapult, Roar/Whirlwind to prevent set up, unaware mons, etc) it but it can indeed feel oppresive.
I can understand the prevalence of gholdengo go with the lack of defoggers makes it much easier to keep screens on and many players are running brick break to deal with screen.
I can understand the prevalence of gholdengo go with the lack of defoggers makes it much easier to keep screens on and many players are running brick break to deal with screen.
Personally I believe shed tail is the problem here since if orthworm is decently bulky so leading with it to get one shed tail off and try to end a game with a sub pass to dragonite/espathra or put the opponent in such an unfavorable spot to where it is unlikely they will ever come back from it.
That is the problem I see with shed tail, as it makes certain set up sweepers absolutely overpowered, so getting rid of cyclizar does not necessarily fix the issue I have with shed tail.
Not sure if this is best asked here or in the Simple Questions thread.
I noticed Gallade actually making a C-Rank in the viability thread rather than D/Unranked I was expecting even after his buffs. Does anyone know what the niche of his set(s) for OU are? Surprised he's at that rank when Sandy Shocks is D-Rank comparatively, because even as a fan of the mon I expected okay-in-UU at best for this gen's kit.
I noticed Gallade actually making a C-Rank in the viability thread rather than D/Unranked I was expecting even after his buffs. Does anyone know what the niche of his set(s) for OU are? Surprised he's at that rank when Sandy Shocks is D-Rank comparatively, because even as a fan of the mon I expected okay-in-UU at best for this gen's kit.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Yeah, I noticed that too. I haven’t seen Gallade make any noticeable waves this gen even with the amount of people who were using him at the start, while I’ve seen Sandy Shocks do a lot of things, especially on sun teams.
It's one of the better choice scarf revenge killers (well better out of the niche pool). It's power with Sharpness Sacred Sword, Psycho Cut, and a whole host of coverage doesn't necessitate any real boosting and a scarf patches up its speed tier nicely. It's still got a whole host of flaws, namely alright at best bulk, poor defensive typing, still slowish with a scarf, etc. But its power is surprisingly nice this gen.
Also Sandy Shocks deserves justice. It's almost certainly better than Gallade.
Skeledirge has been my choice, Fire/Ghost covers its typing coverage effectively and retains the option to tera for Fairy later in the game.
Think that there’s a lot to still be toyed with and moved a rank up or down this early on. Gallade hits hard and a lot of people had their eyes on it to try out, so that could be why it may be inflated. Or perhaps it’s just better than some anticipate. I don’t really have all of the answers and I’d prefer to defer this type of discourse until we open the VR to be entirely honest with you, but I expect opinions to be scattered on many Pokemon this early on.
I really, REALLY don't get how Annihilape is a problem
Low speed, subpar bulk without a proper way to boost it's speed. Type combination is great offensively, but subpar defensively. Very bullshit condition for high power rage fist that can't be easily reached, and when, then usually in late game and due to skill in using it
Like it's a good Mon, but pretty fucking far from problematic. I feel like people look at the possibility of a 350BP move and see this as a reason for Ape being broken
It has 110/80/90 defenses what are you talking about, anyone who says it has subpar bulk immeaditely disqualifies themself from the conversation
0 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Annihilape: 121-144 (28.5 - 33.9%)
0 Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 145-172 (34.1 - 40.5%)
0 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%)
0 Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%)
Very comparable bulk to Mew, can boost it's defense and attack, can force you to boost rage fist and dodge status with taunt, and can become any defensive type that suits it's team to combine with it's very good bulk. Not to mention an amazing ability in defiant.
To make matters worse for those going up against Annihilape, not that it necessary HAS to, but it can also Terastallize into a much better defensive typing to have a better chance to proc more boosts for Rage Fist. Tera Water was usually the most common iirc but people are experimenting with Fire, as well, to dodge Wisp burns and resist Fairy. Like I said, it doesn't even have to Tera, either, since Ghost/Fighting with that bulk is actually pretty good, resisting SR, being immune to Espeed, etc.
The 350 BP move is a pretty busted though tbf.it never reaches that cap, but powering up Rage fist isn't even hard since you can switch it into stuff like U-Turn from Corviknight and whatnot very reliably and 100BP Rage fist is still quite good. Tera can make it more broken too since the free turn it can get is a free Rage fist power up, but even without Tera, it's still insanely bulky and can live ridiculously powerful moves like Specs Chi-yu Overheat. Unlike houndstone, you can't check it via methods like running Tera Normal since it has Fighting STAB, making it quite annoying to face.
It certainly has its flaws, like having somewhat underwhelming initial power on its attacks, especially due to defensive investment. It certainly is no Chi-yu or Glaceon in terms of initial power, but it is still quite strong imo due to rage fist.
We were so close to not having the G word be said for one page. SO CLOSE
On the topic of Shed Tail, I feel Cyclizar is more of the issue than the move itself. Cyclicar was pretty much tailor-made to abuse this move; Regenerator, high Speed, Taunt to block phazing, Rapid Spin to remove hazards for itself, even gets Knock Off and U-turn for more salt on the wound. Orthworm, although it's a pretty cool mon, doesn't feel nearly as powerful with the move and can only ever get one ST off a game at best. The EQ immunity is nice, though, but not enough.
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My biggest issue with Annihilape is that for a lot of teams the gameplan to deal with is literally also its own gameplan to set up. It's simply too bulky to nuke down so you have to chip it to KO range and basically revenge or predict. Ur own gameplan when Annihilape is in play goes out the window cos you have to scramble to handle the thing without blowing a hole in what you need later. The thing gets free turns against like two thirds of the tier also. Maybe this is my Balance bias showing but I find it significantly more of a problem than Chi-Yu, Cyclizar etc.
Grimmsnarl is extremely good at its job of getting up screens, but it's far from the only mon that can do that. If people weren't able to use it, they'd be using Klefki, and screens offense would still be just as dominant as it is now. There is no mon in the meta that does what Annihilape or Espathra do. There are several mons that could fill Grimm's role nearly as well if needed.
I think it's fair to consider that as much of a meme as getting the 350 BP Rage Fist is, a mere 2 hits puts it at 150 BP plus STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game, with no drawback besides that start up time compared to most of our 120 BP move options. Annihilape really wants you on top of your predictions because if he gets hit twice and isn't dead, you're looking at one of the strongest neutral hits in the tier on a mon that probably came prepared for the usual roadblocks (i.e. Status and Revenge Kills). It makes clicking weak utility moves a major risk because U-Turn might put momentum in your court, but it also gives Ape a free increment on Fist given the Quad-Resist even if the attacker was offensive.
I feel like Ape would be a lot more reasonable if we had a few more Home optionsfor Intimidate and such (woops that's not it), or if he had less access to heavy offense support like Grimmsnarl's Omnipresence for Screens (Cyclizar helps less since I don't believe Substitute lets Fist increase, but Screens exist with him still), but it's pretty reasonable to call him overwhelming for Balance and Bulky teams given what we currently have available.
I feel like Ape would be a lot more reasonable if we had a few more Home options
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Pretty sure this wasn't your intention, but remember Annihilape has Defiant. If anything, more Intimidaters would be a welcome sight for it.
It only occurs to me after the fact that Annihilape literally will never care about Intimidate since Vital Spirit interferes with its best set (BU Resto-Chesto) and Inner Focus got buffed to ignore Intimidate.
So yeah, can't scare the Ape. I do wonder about the memetic answer that would be Hisuian Zoroark with its immunity to both STABs (since RF tends to hit neutral doesn't need a "pretend it's a weakness" Illusion like Unovan) and... not really doing much to work in OU.
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