Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I hope in the next generation gamefreak will remove u-turn from corviknight.
it is annoying how magnezone can't always trap it.
such an annoying pokemon should be easier to beat.

EDIT:you know what, I have better idea. instead of nerfing it they should reduce its special attack to 1, give the remaining 52 points to hp(thus making it 150) and then give it the hidden ability wonder guard.
this will make it so overpowered that smogon will have to ban it.
 
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Early January radar is in the plans

I have two short questions, maybe inappropriate for this thread.
Firstly, do you have an estimated time frame as to how long the suspect testing will last?
Also, could you share some information regarding the potential changes to the upcoming radar?
Could we see things like dragapult getting on the radar and some things getting off of it (basing off the current iteration of the viability list)?

Jan 1, depends on the verdict of the suspect test, and yes things of that nature of on the table we have a very open mind

Thanks. It's great to hear that the "on radar" mons are being viewed upon with an open mindedness.
 
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I’m a politics nerd I’m sorry the fact that RCV is being used is unironically more exciting to me than the suspect itself
 
I have two short questions, maybe inappropriate for this thread.
Firstly, do you have an estimated time frame as to how long the suspect testing will last?
Also, could you share some information regarding the potential changes to the upcoming radar?
Could we see things like dragapult getting on the radar and some things getting off of it (basing off the current iteration of the viability list)?

January 1st at 11:59 pm (GMT-5)
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sv-ou-suspect-process-round-1-oops-i-did-it-again.3712714/
 
I have two short questions, maybe inappropriate for this thread.
Firstly, do you have an estimated time frame as to how long the suspect testing will last?
Also, could you share some information regarding the potential changes to the upcoming radar?
Could we see things like dragapult getting on the radar and some things getting off of it (basing off the current iteration of the viability list)?
Jan 1, depends on the verdict of the suspect test, and yes things of that nature of on the table we have a very open mind
 
Inspired by a post in the Maushold thread, I'm wondering how Gravity could work in the current meta.

Disclaimer - thanks to Dexit the pool of setters is VERY limited, which sucks. In rough order of viability, there's the Pink Blobs, Sandy Shocks, Bronzong, Wigglytuff, and Stonjourner. However I feel there's definitely scope for how it could benefit teams, whether it's allowing 'mon like ChiYu or Iron Jugulis to use stronger stabs with less risk, or grounding Corviknight and Talonflame to be earthquake bait. Has anyone played around with it at all? I'm curious to make it work because I loved using Gigalith and Excadrill as a gravity combo in Gen8, it was gimmicky for sure but fun
 
Lets talk about the broken Pokémon Chi-Yu.
Chi-Yu‘s only counter based on what everyone has said is Ttar.

The only other counters I heard about are AV Azumarill & Gastrodon, but they seem to be ineffective.
- AV Azumarill can get wore down.
- Gastrodon can lose depending on the moves Chi-Yu runs.

If the Council isn’t going to ban Chi-Yu, until Jan 1, Than I might as well start abusing Chi-Yu.
Anyone have good Chi-Yu build I can copy?
 
In my experience, Chi-Yu is far from being broken, unless we take Terastal in mind, which at the moment is dealt with by a Suspect. With Terastal it is broken due to being able to abuse both a Super Stab and Terablast (its one of the only Mons that can use that move very effectively) to destroy some check (Grass for Azu, Fight for Tar, Fairy for Roaring Moon).

So, I will provide checks and counterplay to Chi-Yu without taking Terastal in mind, since this is a mechanic that has a big variance in each match and makes many Mons broken and uncountearable, not just Chi-Yu. Of course, the fish has many Sets and universal checks are few:

-Tyranitar. Obvious one. Gets ruined by WoW, but even burned can deal with the fish easily.
-Roaring Moon. Lives both STABs. Can run bulky DD + Roost Sets pretty well, has EQ to OHKO fish. Doesn,t like burns (which not every Chi-Yu uses), but due to DD, its not the end of the world.
-Azumarill. Not an actual check, however if Chi-Yu is choiced and kills something, can abuse it by using Belly Drum.
-Ting-Lu. Only takes relevant damage from Specs Overheat, totally ignores other sets. Restalk Ting-Lu is viable, just run another Hazard setter along it and you are fine vs Specs too.
-Quaquaval. Checks Scarf, has Roost. Obviously can,t switch into Specs, but Scarf is more common.
-Paldean Tauros, Fire or Water. Same like the ugly duck.
-Dragonite. Due to Multiscale, can switch into every Move at least to scout. Can run defensive sets.
-Hydreigon. Switches once into Scarf. In theory could run a Restalk set, though its hard to differentiate from bulky Roaring Moon sets.
-Gastrodon and Clodsire. Have big Sdef and Recover. Can fail vs Specs, but Scarf can,t break them.
-Blissey and Chansey. Only NP or Specs + Sun can get past them. The NP ones need Taunt, since otherwise they get a Thunder Wave.
-Rain. The fish might get to kill something, but this playstyle in general gives him big troubles.

If using Hippowdon (preferable with Smooth Rock):
-Garganacl. Due to the Sand Sdef boost, laughs at everything Chi-Yu can do.
-Klawf. With Assault Vest, Sand boost and Regenerator, doesn,t care about anything and can use Knock Off, similarly to what Tornadus-T did in ORAS. Its a bad Mon, but decent enough in Sand.
-Coallossal. This one has to use Boots + Restalk to be viable in Sand, but it gets Spikes.
-Glimmora. Like Coallossal, needs Restalk, but could succesfully run Corrosion with it (except vs Gholdengo).

Some other unranked Mons:
-Hariyama. With Restalk + Thick Fat, it only fears Terastal and Psychic. Can spread Paras with Force Palm and use Knock Off.
-Dachsbun. Didn,t try this Mon, it looks bad. However, it fully counters Chi-Yu by being immune to fire and resisting Dark.


I get that many of these Mons are not easy to fit and some are only situational checks or depend on the set. However, actual games are different from theory and in my experience, there is enough counterplay to Chi-Yu. It can use Terastal, but so can do the opponent. Depending on how the Suspect ends, it might end up broken, but right now I only think its broken with the Terastal mechanic, and the same thing happens to many Mons, so I don,t think Chi-Yu is that much superior, even though its undeniably one of the best OU Mons. Annihilape, Cyclizar and Gholdengo (in this specific order) are the only Mons I think are actually broken regardless of Terastal.
 
In my experience, Chi-Yu is far from being broken,
Okay, valid mons to counter, the thing is, you have 5 other teammates
Ttar gets ruined by the morbilion fighting types we have
Moon, azu and qua can be ruined by donzo, if your not running donzo then Lu ruins Moon, pex ruins azu, qua is shit
alzo, paldean forms, qua and hariyama can be ruined by Psychic
theres also the slight chance of MULTIPLE flinches, and belive me, i have done unthinkable things thanks to that
your normal team needs at least 2 ways to stop it or else is prone to run away with the game, theres no way is not broken im sorry
 
In my experience, Chi-Yu is far from being broken, unless we take Terastal in mind, which at the moment is dealt with by a Suspect. With Terastal it is broken due to being able to abuse both a Super Stab and Terablast (its one of the only Mons that can use that move very effectively) to destroy some check (Grass for Azu, Fight for Tar, Fairy for Roaring Moon).

So, I will provide checks and counterplay to Chi-Yu without taking Terastal in mind, since this is a mechanic that has a big variance in each match and makes many Mons broken and uncountearable, not just Chi-Yu. Of course, the fish has many Sets and universal checks are few:

-Tyranitar. Obvious one. Gets ruined by WoW, but even burned can deal with the fish easily.
-Roaring Moon. Lives both STABs. Can run bulky DD + Roost Sets pretty well, has EQ to OHKO fish. Doesn,t like burns (which not every Chi-Yu uses), but due to DD, its not the end of the world.
-Azumarill. Not an actual check, however if Chi-Yu is choiced and kills something, can abuse it by using Belly Drum.
-Ting-Lu. Only takes relevant damage from Specs Overheat, totally ignores other sets. Restalk Ting-Lu is viable, just run another Hazard setter along it and you are fine vs Specs too.
-Quaquaval. Checks Scarf, has Roost. Obviously can,t switch into Specs, but Scarf is more common.
-Paldean Tauros, Fire or Water. Same like the ugly duck.
-Dragonite. Due to Multiscale, can switch into every Move at least to scout. Can run defensive sets.
-Hydreigon. Switches once into Scarf. In theory could run a Restalk set, though its hard to differentiate from bulky Roaring Moon sets.
-Gastrodon and Clodsire. Have big Sdef and Recover. Can fail vs Specs, but Scarf can,t break them.
-Blissey and Chansey. Only NP or Specs + Sun can get past them. The NP ones need Taunt, since otherwise they get a Thunder Wave.
-Rain. The fish might get to kill something, but this playstyle in general gives him big troubles.

If using Hippowdon (preferable with Smooth Rock):
-Garganacl. Due to the Sand Sdef boost, laughs at everything Chi-Yu can do.
-Klawf. With Assault Vest, Sand boost and Regenerator, doesn,t care about anything and can use Knock Off, similarly to what Tornadus-T did in ORAS. Its a bad Mon, but decent enough in Sand.
-Coallossal. This one has to use Boots + Restalk to be viable in Sand, but it gets Spikes.
-Glimmora. Like Coallossal, needs Restalk, but could succesfully run Corrosion with it (except vs Gholdengo).

Some other unranked Mons:
-Hariyama. With Restalk + Thick Fat, it only fears Terastal and Psychic. Can spread Paras with Force Palm and use Knock Off.
-Dachsbun. Didn,t try this Mon, it looks bad. However, it fully counters Chi-Yu by being immune to fire and resisting Dark.


I get that many of these Mons are not easy to fit and some are only situational checks or depend on the set. However, actual games are different from theory and in my experience, there is enough counterplay to Chi-Yu. It can use Terastal, but so can do the opponent. Depending on how the Suspect ends, it might end up broken, but right now I only think its broken with the Terastal mechanic, and the same thing happens to many Mons, so I don,t think Chi-Yu is that much superior, even though its undeniably one of the best OU Mons. Annihilape, Cyclizar and Gholdengo (in this specific order) are the only Mons I think are actually broken regardless of Terastal.
To be fair, you can do this exercise with practically any pokemon or strategy we've banned over the years (Just use a Mold Breaker mental herb phazer for baton pass bro!) . It's really not fair to propose pokemon with mostly terrible viability, or combos of mons with very mediocre viability, or using sets or spreads that great hinder the viability of the pokemon as adequate enough counterplay.

-Tyranitar. An actual good check, but very mediocre mon in the meta currently, the Seismatoad to Chi Yu's Dracovish
-Roaring Moon. Bulky Roaring Moon is a great check, but is very hindered by the recovery nerf. Overheat will force you to roost everytime basically in order to maintain your ability to check it.
-Azumarill. One of the best things to take advantage of it down the line, but not a check.
-Ting-Lu. The best check to scarf in terms of viability and utility, don't really agree with the idea that rest talk warrants usage but I'll give it to you
-Quaquaval. Smashed by psychic, not a check at all.
-Paldean Tauros, Fire or Water. Smashed by psychic, and their viability highly revolves around being physically defensive in my opinion.
-Dragonite. A defensive set would have to roost every time to maintain multi scale and remain a check, and they can fish for dark pulse flinch all those turns as well
-Hydreigon. Really has no place over Roaring Moon if using a set to check Chi Yu
-Gastrodon and Clodsire. Beat scarf but lose to other variants, again very hindered by recovery PP nerf and lose of momentum by switching into those moves and being forced to recovery in order to main a check.
-Blissey and Chansey. Actual checks, but Sun is a huge problem, and Sun has huge viability at the moment, so I don't think it's fair to frame as niche as we may have in the past

All of the "Use Hippodown + X mon" points are most laughable

-Hariyama. Loses to scarf psychic
-Dachsbun. Max Spdef checks scarf, but not specs. One of the better options, but unfortunately spdef Dachsbun has questionable viability outside of checking Chi Yu (Volcarona if Roar I suppose, but struggles with other special attackers like Iron Moth, Dragapult, Gholdengo,)

This isn't trying to be a huge well actually post, but Chi Yu pretty easily manuevers its way around most of the checks and forces them to waste turns recovering which has been nerfed, even without Tera. The best way to play around Chi Yu is to simply try and beat your opponent before it can switch in many times, which can be exceedingly difficult especially given what is set is will massively change how you will plan for in the battle (and getting that info can be difficult given that even with scarf it's still so many things, making you unable to ascertain the set from the damage calc.)
 
The team that counters Chi-Yu also has 5 more Mons to check Chi-Yu's teammates. Your argument works both ways.
my team has a donphan, therefore I win the 1v1 :blobnom:
(also Donphan checks Chi Yu)
but for real, the amount of mons that check Chi Yu is way smaller than the mons that Chi Yu destroys, is easier to kill the few counters he has than to kill him, theres 17 checks on your list, you might be able to bring at most 2 (unless rain/sand) but then you become weaker to other mons, like, for example, lets say you bring both Ttar and Gastro to a game, both are good checks yes, and they both can stop chi yu, yep, pair him with Ape and scout if gastro has Clear smog, if he doesnt, your now entire strat is in trouble, you can say, sure, i can bring an anhiliape check in Sylveon for example (you cant use Ting Lu because your stacking weaknesses) and since it has Wish support, you can stay healthy during the match, okay, change ape for Great Tusk and now your fucking dead, and then we can make a whole team just to check Chi Yu and its teammates, and then Chi yu decides to take a vacation and now chien pao has to fill in

my point is, it is team restricting, and in a meta where we are already having trouble fitting things, then its easy to see things crashing down
 
haha silly chi yu running tera fighting against its most viable check (tyranitar) can make it even more dirty than it is


But seriously though, it's very telling when Chi-Yu's gotten nonsensical that people have brought out the Daschsbun as a check in discussions. I wasn't very convinced it's broken at first, but honestly it's kinda problematic. I really wonder how the meta will shape up once it's gone because it's so dominant right now and easy to fit onto teams.
 
haha silly chi yu running tera fighting against its most viable check (tyranitar) can make it even more dirty than it is


But seriously though, it's very telling when Chi-Yu's gotten nonsensical that people have brought out the Daschsbun as a check in discussions. I wasn't very convinced it's broken at first, but honestly it's kinda problematic. I really wonder how the meta will shape up once it's gone because it's so dominant right now and easy to fit onto teams.
Unironically Ape will lose, because most of the efforts right now are for Chi Yu stopping, once the big target is gone, people will start running normal deffense a bit more to counter some other mons running around

Biggest winner will be dondozo since Chi yu is can break trough it with enough chip or if he is resting
 
it's a bit disappointing the council did not relax the requirements to vote in the Tera suspect test. i don't know about anyone else, but 80% GXE is just far too high, in my opinion. there are plenty of users who are active in the community enough and play the game often enough to have an informed opinion on the metagame that do not have the skill in executing a gameplan well enough to reach 80% GXE.

i understand that the goal of the voting requirements is to prevent people who do not play the meta and do not care about it from voting. i do agree with that sentiment- it wouldn't be fair for some random casual who thinks mega ray should be in ou and lando-t should be banned to have equal say to someone who DOES play the meta. however, the current voting requirements prevent people who are average to not super great at actually playing but understand the metagame from voting, while allowing people who are either naturally good, or people who are good at adjacent things (i.e. VGC/other tiers) who do not know or care about the meta to vote.

my suggestion would be to decrease the GXE requirement down to 60% or 70% while increasing the amount of games played required to vote, as well as potentially requiring some degree of community participation such as number of posts on relevant forums, or requiring an account here of a certain age.
 
it's a bit disappointing the council did not relax the requirements to vote in the Tera suspect test. i don't know about anyone else, but 80% GXE is just far too high, in my opinion. there are plenty of users who are active in the community enough and play the game often enough to have an informed opinion on the metagame that do not have the skill in executing a gameplan well enough to reach 80% GXE.

i understand that the goal of the voting requirements is to prevent people who do not play the meta and do not care about it from voting. i do agree with that sentiment- it wouldn't be fair for some random casual who thinks mega ray should be in ou and lando-t should be banned to have equal say to someone who DOES play the meta. however, the current voting requirements prevent people who are average to not super great at actually playing but understand the metagame from voting, while allowing people who are either naturally good, or people who are good at adjacent things (i.e. VGC/other tiers) who do not know or care about the meta to vote.

my suggestion would be to decrease the GXE requirement down to 60% or 70% while increasing the amount of games played required to vote, as well as potentially requiring some degree of community participation such as number of posts on relevant forums, or requiring an account here of a certain age.

I would have to disagree, 80 GXE is extremely manageable especially based on how busy the ladder is. On top of that the Melmetal suspect vote was also 80 GXE with minimum 50 games played and to be honest it was the largest voting pool in SS OU history, so I think it's a fair number.

60 or 70 GXE is OD, that's way too easy. I'm sorry.
 
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I just wish the Suspect Test was later. This is the first one I've wanted to vote in since like ORAS, but it's the holiday season and I have limited-time events to do in FFXIV. Can't really dedicate myself to grinding out reqs.

This is totally a me problem, though.
 
it's a bit disappointing the council did not relax the requirements to vote in the Tera suspect test. i don't know about anyone else, but 80% GXE is just far too high, in my opinion. there are plenty of users who are active in the community enough and play the game often enough to have an informed opinion on the metagame that do not have the skill in executing a gameplan well enough to reach 80% GXE.

i understand that the goal of the voting requirements is to prevent people who do not play the meta and do not care about it from voting. i do agree with that sentiment- it wouldn't be fair for some random casual who thinks mega ray should be in ou and lando-t should be banned to have equal say to someone who DOES play the meta. however, the current voting requirements prevent people who are average to not super great at actually playing but understand the metagame from voting, while allowing people who are either naturally good, or people who are good at adjacent things (i.e. VGC/other tiers) who do not know or care about the meta to vote.

my suggestion would be to decrease the GXE requirement down to 60% or 70% while increasing the amount of games played required to vote, as well as potentially requiring some degree of community participation such as number of posts on relevant forums, or requiring an account here of a certain age.
Personally I want as many people who are competitive and knowledgeable to get reqs as possible!

If you need teams or advice, feel free to message me. It’s super possible for a player who settles in the 70 GXEs or the 15-1600 range to get reqs!!! The big thing is knowing when to cut your losses — just given how GXE works, keep starting over until you’ve won your first 10 games or only lost a couple of your first 20. This cuts down the sample of games to where you only have to win a good majority of your next 20-30 games rather than having to beat up on all of the better players you draw higher on the ladder! I personally think that a lot of people could get reqs that maybe haven’t historically if they focused on strategy and playing rather than just blanket blaming Smogon and assuming conclusions, which could lead to you getting your desired outcome.

There have been times when reqs were even more challenging than now, but this is a continuation of what we had last generation. We also threw another week or so onto the suspect to give people extra time. Realistically 60-70% GXE goes from a competency test to a baseline mechanics and “what does this even do” test at a certain point.
 
I would have to disagree, 80 GXE is extremely manageable especially based on how busy the ladder is. On top of that the Melmetal suspect vote was also 80 GXE with minimum 50 games played and to be honest it was the largest voting pool in SS OU history, so I think it's a fair number.

60 or 70 GXE is OD, that's way too easy. I'm sorry.

What exactly is 80 GXE?
Is it a percentage?
like 40 wins + 10 loses = 50 Total Games = 80 GXE?
 
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