Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
if a mon teras early, switches out and stays out for 6+ turns, then switches back in, are you sure you'll remember it's type? What if you're color blind, or the mon has multiple similarly colored types viable (ground and rock for example)?
Just a quick question, how did Smogon solve this tremendous problem? You're telling me that GF can't make ANYTHING as simple and good?
 
Just a quick question, how did Smogon solve this tremendous problem? You're telling me that GF can't make ANYTHING as simple and good?

...its entirely different interface? with the camera moving in 3d space it'd be a lot harder to track a little gem on the health bar of your opponent's mons. I also wanna again note the color issue; I don't actually think Showdown's menu icon is recognizable enough for colorblind folks
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Jesus fucking christ. This tera must have been one hell of a suspect if it took a few days for the results came out. Now, can we please get rid of Nemo already?
 
Right off the bat I would make a sort of crystal skin every time a mon terastallizes, kinda like rainbow cards in Pokemon TCG but instead of the rainbow colours imagine a crystal-like effect. And for each typing I would make a crystal of a different colour, plus some cool animation during the transformation when the crystal shatters to reveal the new skin (like a burst of flames coming off the mon for Fire types, leaves blowing off for Grass types etc). But keep in mind, I'm just an average dude and the Pokémon Company certainly doesn't lack the money to hire a couple of people with a creative brain.
Great way to take a dump on color-blind people and a lot of type colors are similar, especially when you consider that the crystals are somewhat transparent, which means the mon's natural colors can mess with the exact color you want.

Iirc, there's a mod removing the Tera hats for SV, so you can see how messy that looks in practice.
 
Prediction:

1) Chi-Yu gets quickbanned. (If you can call this a prediction, it's all but officially "leaked" to be the case.)

2) Annihilape gets quickbanned. Cue "SMOGON LOVES STALL!" but the ape can genuinely 6-0 otherwise credible stall teams. Probably makes a return with Home, since the problem is team building constraints and a larger dex remedies that.

3) Cyclizar gets quickbanned. Regenerator, speed, SubPass button, utility, and just enough offense that you have to consider that he might attack. Not so much a problem in a vacuum, but there's a lot of mons that become nightmarish with a free sub if you mispredict the receiver.

4) Chien-Pao gets suspected. I think he'll survive the suspect, though; between 80/80/65 bulk and a terrible defensive typing (including weaknesses to most priority), there are plenty of checks even if few true counters.
 
We need to find nemo first....
Just follow the trail of burned bodies, shouldn’t be that hard.

And so as to not make this into a one-liner, I wasn’t around for the Tera debate but man it got Salt Cure’s and Toxic’d pretty fast. I’m personally on Tera Preview but the dice fell how it did, let’s move on.

Will probably have more coherent thoughts on the problem mons soon.
 
Prediction:

1) Chi-Yu gets quickbanned. (If you can call this a prediction, it's all but officially "leaked" to be the case.)

2) Annihilape gets quickbanned. Cue "SMOGON LOVES STALL!" but the ape can genuinely 6-0 otherwise credible stall teams. Probably makes a return with Home, since the problem is team building constraints and a larger dex remedies that.

3) Cyclizar gets quickbanned. Regenerator, speed, SubPass button, utility, and just enough offense that you have to consider that he might attack. Not so much a problem in a vacuum, but there's a lot of mons that become nightmarish with a free sub if you mispredict the receiver.

4) Chien-Pao gets suspected. I think he'll survive the suspect, though; between 80/80/65 bulk and a terrible defensive typing (including weaknesses to most priority), there are plenty of checks even if few true counters.
Dont leave out Ghold. Same reasoning as ape here. He can eliminate certain playstyles by himself. He should 100% be suspected if the big 3 get quickbanned because he loses alot of threats that he had to account for now.
 
Ok but for real tho let this happen, it would be hilarious to try.

Anyhow, I heard a couple of infidels (DuoM2) try to go against my saviour Gholdengo. First of I shall inform you that I currently run 4 Ghouldengo cults, the OU ladder radicalised me to the point that I fully believe this mon to be the best presence in the metagame.
View attachment 480859
I love this thing, I love making corviknight users ragequit after their shitty bird is unable to do anything against the glory of Gholdengo. I love watching setup sweepers get greedy and eat shit thanks to chad Gholdengo tricking them a specs or scarf. Y'all infidels fear returning to the old ways, the days of adv, of dpp and bw when having a ghost type in front of you meant you actually had to try before removing hazards. Go ahead, accept his golden ways, you will be happier.
not to mention that we're supposed to be struggling with gholdengo. I feel gf made this mon to be centralizing, much like landorus-t is/was, forcing a shift in the meta. people bitch about lando-t but at the end of every meta, no one really cares because role compression is good, to a point

point is, fuck defog, hazards are back and that's a good thing
 
I am surprised that no action was taken, would've expected the TP solution to win. I am overall glad. I like Tera. I think this will divide the playerbase somewhat, wouldn't be surprised if Gen 8 OU will be played a lot more now
 
i've been lurking on the forums for a long time but only just now made an account so i can give my thoughts on the matter:

i'm not particularly a fan of unrestricted tera and would have preferred to see tera captain and/or tera preview win, but after seeing how angry this suspect made people, i'm in full support of the result
 
If you are using corviknight without using chi-yu on the same team, then you deserve to lose to gholdengo!

thanks to no way to deal with the specs set, and gholdengo being forced out, you’re basically losing at least 1 Pokémon, or getting a one time check at best, if you risk a gholdengo switch in on a u turn corviknight + chi yu combo.

even specially defensive roaring moon isn’t safe. It takes an overheat and is forced to roost on the next turn whilst corviknight comes back in for the slower u turn.
 
If you are using corviknight without using chi-yu on the same team, then you deserve to lose to gholdengo!

thanks to no way to deal with the specs set, and gholdengo being forced out, you’re basically losing at least 1 Pokémon, or getting a one time check at best, if you risk a gholdengo switch in on a corviknight + chi yu combo.
Why did I read this as if it was a copypasta...? :psygrump:
 
Terastallization stays! Now it's time to get rid of what I find to be the real problems of the tier, Chi-Yu and Annihilape.

Chi-Yu - Quickban
1672887344813.png

I hate stall. I know this destroys stall. But the price is too high. The pressure that this puts on balance teambuilding is absurd. Choice Specs Overheat is nearly unwallable, and combined with Dark Pulse and Psychic, almost nothing switches into this pokemon. Roaring Moon takes so much from an Overheat that they are forced to use Roost, while the opponent switches into a counter. And other solutions like Dachsbun and Tyranitar, are just terrible pokemon. And even these options picked specifically for Chi-Yu are beaten by the Terastal sets. For its power level, it also has an incredible speed tier, outpacing Gholdengo and Great Tusk. There is incredibly wide support for banning this pokemon, and I think a Quickban would be better for the tier and generally uncontested.

Annihilape - Quickban / Suspect Test
1672887310409.png

Once again, yes, I know this beats stall. But frankly, this beats any team if it has the right tera-type. Every single team you have loses to Annihilape, I guarentee. You lose on preview to at least one common Annihilape set. Between Resto Chesto sets, Taunt Leftovers, and the latest Protect Leftovers set, Annihilape has taken care of any way you could possibly beat it. Powerful special moves? Specially Defensive Annihilape with Terastal tanks easily. Trick it a Choice Item? They can double, or if they're a Protect set, they can scout and gain health. Will-O-Wisp HDB Dragapult? This is widely regarded as one of the best Annihilape answers, but it loses hard against Tera Fire or Resto Chesto. I just saw the #1 player on ladder lose to a Tera Fairy Annihilape paired with Revival Blessing and Healing Wish. There is so frequently absolutely nothing you can do about losing to this pokemon, no matter how well you play or prepare. It is the definition of uncompetitive. For some reason, there appears to be not as much support for a ban, although still a large amount, so if we must tolerate a suspect test and endure this pokemon for a little while longer, so be it. I think a quickban would be a much faster way to get rid of a clearly uncompetitive pokemon however, especially given that unrestricted terastallization will remain.
 
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If you are using corviknight without using chi-yu on the same team, then you deserve to lose to gholdengo!

thanks to no way to deal with the specs set, and gholdengo being forced out, you’re basically losing at least 1 Pokémon, or getting a one time check at best, if you risk a gholdengo switch in on a u turn corviknight + chi yu combo.

even specially defensive roaring moon isn’t safe. It takes an overheat and is forced to roost on the next turn whilst corviknight comes back in for the slower u turn.
you mean the chi-yu that's about to be quickbanned for this exact reason? that chi-yu? the chi-yu that's specifically getting quick-banned? Chi-yu's quickban?
 
I think this was the right outcome. Gives players a chance to see Tera after the most egregious mons are removed (especially Chi-Yu), before retesting. Once Tera is banned I think there's little chance of it coming back because the "no gimmicks" status quo always just works. Something as impactful as Tera needs more time to cook.

I was curious to see the impact of a Tera Ban on Great Tusk, though. He seems like a Tera victim more than an abuser, but is #1 in usage as is. Could be capable of dethroning Landorus-T... especially if Landorus-T drops while Defiant Annihilape is still legal.
 
Terastallization stays! Now it's time to get rid of what I find to be the real problems of the tier, Chi-Yu and Annihilape.

Chi-Yu - Quickban
View attachment 480880
I hate stall. I know this destroys stall. But the price is too high. The pressure that this puts on balance teambuilding is absurd. Choice Specs Overheat is nearly unwallable, and combined with Dark Pulse and Psychic, almost nothing switches into this pokemon. Roaring Moon takes so much from an Overheat that they are forced to use Roost, while the opponent switches into a counter. And other solutions like Dachsbun and Tyranitar, are just terrible pokemon. And even these options picked specifically for Chi-Yu are beaten by the Terastal sets. For its power level, it also has an incredible speed tier, outpacing Gholdengo and Great Tusk. There is incredibly wide support for banning this pokemon, and I think a Quickban would be better for the tier and generally uncontested.

Annihilape - Quickban / Suspect Test
View attachment 480878
Once again, yes, I know this beats stall. But frankly, this beats any team if it has the right tera-type. Every single team you have loses to Annihilape, I guarentee. You lose on preview to at least one common Annihilape set. Between Resto Chesto sets, Taunt Leftovers, and the latest Protect Leftovers set, Annihilape has taken care of any way you could possibly beat it. Powerful special moves? Specially Defensive Annihilape with Terastal tanks easily. Trick it a Choice Item? They can double, or if they're a Protect set, they can scout and gain health. Will-O-Wisp HDB Dragapult? This is widely regarded as one of the best Annihilape answers, but it loses hard against Tera Fire or Resto Chesto. I just saw the #1 player on ladder lose to a Tera Fairy Annihilape paired with Revival Blessing and Healing Wish. There is so frequently absolutely nothing you can do about losing to this pokemon, no matter how well you play or prepare. It is the definition of uncompetitive. For some reason, there appears to be not as much support for a ban, although still a large amount, so if we must tolerate a suspect test and endure this pokemon for a little while longer, so be it. I think a quickban would be a much faster way to get rid of a clearly uncompetitive pokemon however, especially given that unrestricted terastallization will remain.
annihilape is an interesting one.

despite your proposal that it can beat any one set, it does it at a great cost.

example: let’s say my main check for the ape is specs valiant. When you Tera into a fire type to resist the moonblast and keep HP above 60%, you’re now a fire type annilihape, and thus despite being +1 def, you can now be KOd by a partner Garchomp, and you used up your Tera type. This applies for multiple other variations.

Unlike chi-yu, you can actually switch in these Pokémon into annihilape!

the very offensive meta, lots of high speed high power options and aggressive gameplay of games means that annihilape is not unbeatable. People just need to get used to checking it. Sure you might need 2 to check it, but that’s only when it uses up a Tera, which is a valuable commitment.

annihilape is good, in a way I liken it to Weavile from last gen, really good, tho in this case, arguably it runs greater costs to achieve its objectives.
 
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From what I gathered

Begone Satan Tier:
-Chi Yu
-Ape


Both are near impossible to deal with even when teams are expecting them especially with no tera restrictions. No discussion can be had about future metas as long as these are in the format. Almost all arguments against them boil down to very specific scenarios or running unoptimal mons. They highly centralize teambuilding to the point that of you arent running them or arent running multiple mons to cover them you shouldnt even build the team.

How are you going to ban me tier:
-Shed Tail/Cyclizar


Just a degenerate thing that isnt healthy for the meta. Arguments for keeping them are there but dont really change this point. Shed tail is by far the worse offender here and may be banned over the actual mon

Im going to cause issues when the above get banned tier:
-Gholdengo
-Chien Pao


The only things holding these mons back was the power level of the obviously broken mons that are currently allowed in OU. WIth them gone and the overall power level of the tier slowly decreasing they will naturally rise...except in Gholds case where he is already the #1 used mon and will exponentially rise. In fact the same argument for banning ape can somewhat be applied to him as he removes an entire playstyle against him.
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
Could be capable of dethroning Landorus-T... especially if Landorus-T drops while Defiant Annihilape is still legal.
i think they'll compete for a teamslot but neither will outright outclass one another. both have similar strengths and weaknesses but they also have other aspects that differentiate them from one another
 
i think they'll compete for a teamslot but neither will outright outclass one another. both have similar strengths and weaknesses but they also have other aspects that differentiate them from one another
i think so too. they're both really good but they overlap in enough places, especially defensively, that running them both at the same time is probably not a great idea. this should be a good thing in the long run because if they compete with each other for space it means neither of them will hit absurd usage numbers and there won't be a cacophony of people who don't understand how tiering policy works asking to ban them based on usage alone
 
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