Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[VannAccessible]

So i just recently peaked to number one on the leaderboard with sun, and i think Brute Bonnet may have an underrated niche as a breaker, for me, its like a bulkier crawdaunt under sun.

So heres why i think Brute Bonnet is an underrated Threat under sun.
​

Now one thing about sun is, sun teams does not NEED terastalization most of the time unlike other offensive teams. Most sun threats like cinderace, great tusk, roaring moon, sandy shocks, scovillain, slither wing, usually goes by well without a tera, and usually just uses the STAB tera type, which is why you can run something that relies on tera to be good relatively well like Charizard, Ceruledge and now, Brute Bonnet.


Unga Boonguss (Brute Bonnet) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Tera Blast
- Sucker Punch / Crunch
- Spore / Crunch

The above is the set i use, you can use a higher speed tier for mons like fast kingambit, but for me this is enough. This pokemon has a really nice attack stat of 127 and under sun, it has a (pretty much) infinite protosynthesis boost due to the scarcity of weather teams. The base power of bullet seed combined with loaded dice also makes it a very nice spammable move, and the combo of Dark/Grass/Fire coverage is very hard to wall in OU, spore and sucker punch also gives it a nice utility againts more offensive teams. Yes, you do need to tera-fire but the rewards you get for it are really nice, and in sun, as i've mentioned before, non of the big sun threats really need to terastalize to get the most out of it. If you want to use it outside of sun (which i dont suggest) you can use close combat over tera blast.

So what can Brute Bonnet do?
Like i said, it acts similar to that of crawdaunt in rain, a slow but strong physical breaker with a good priority move, and unlike crawdaunt, it has amazing bulk, better than its counterpart amoonguss which lets it live some strong hits like a valiant moonblast, great tusk body press, banded breloom mach punch and many more with just minimum bulk. Many of the good physical walls, great tusk, rotom-wash, corviknight, garganacl, dondozo can't switch into this pokemon safely, and the ones that can like dragonite, doesn't have anything too strong for it and can risk a spore and in the end gets 1v1d anyways.

It's strenght over the other sun abusers lies in its bulk, spore and coverage. While it won't 2hko everything like a banded outrage roaring moon, it's great coverage with lets it hit most things super effectively, and the ones that arent hit super effectively is usually not that bulky and will die to two strong stabs with some exceptions like dragonite or physdef toxapex. Sun struggles with stuff like dragapult, cinderace and fairy volcarona and brute bonnet helps a lot with beating those without having to use a defensive mon. Brute Bonnet also beats some common walls for sun like Garganacl, Ting-Lu or Skeledirge.

One thing that turns people off about brute bonnet is its terrible defensive typing, but when you use it this way, it actually benefits from its unique set of resistances. Rain teams, Dragapults shadown ball, Rotom-Wash's stabs, Azumarill, Kingambit's Sucker Punch, and when you add tera fire onto it you can bait and beat fire move, burns, fairy moves, make it rain and way more.

Heres some replays i collected showing off its strenght in conjunction with sun.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783586164-j2bwuxe42rmninogqlemilpmlsfg98jpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783687843-idp2nxkuo4w7wkm38ybwqv278wfredapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783631656-628czzsyp65lgar4m5mug3sa7y51azapw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783592014-6ugi9wamlamq8yo3nl35gqg39ys0py5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1783660953-s7p7tg9uus181elv6ibapmqrnqhey39pw

Some Calcs

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fire Brute Bonnet in Sun: 122-146 (30.4 - 36.4%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO
252+ Def Great Tusk Body Press vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 294-348 (73.3 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Brute Bonnet: 296-350 (73.8 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 326-386 (81.2 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Breloom Close Combat vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Brute Bonnet: 325-384 (81 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Brute Bonnet: 268-316 (66.8 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Brute Bonnet: 189-223 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fire Brute Bonnet Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona in Sun: 337-397 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Fire Brute Bonnet Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 284-336 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fire Brute Bonnet Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Scream Tail in Sun: 279-328 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fire Brute Bonnet Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 425-510 (91.7 - 110.1%) -- approx. 62.5% chance to OHKO

So whats its weakness?
Its speed is quite low, even some skeledirge i've faced on ladder have investments to outspeed it.
It's sometimes not strong enough, Physdef Pex can beat you outside of sun, curse dondozo or iron defense gargnacl that teras can beat you.
Its typing lets it down sometimes vs common mons like great tusk or iron valiant.
competition with other sun threats (tho i can say this with all of them).

So in conclusion, i think sun definetly has a lot of room to improve on its picks, most ive seen are zard, scovillain, cinderace, roaring moon and great tusk as its offensive threat, but i do feel other pokemon like Brute Bonnet here, deserves attention as being a really good sun threat among the others. If you want a slow, bulky, fat killing sun threat with almost unwallable coverage, try out Brute Bonnet.

My Peak:
View attachment 487310

Team i used made by Vert
https://pokepast.es/9a21443a5e324e5a

Goobye Everyone

Yaaas, Mimikyu is aboard the Brute Train.

Something I found I love about this guy is how his STABs brutalize all of Dondozo, Skeledirge, Garganacl and Gholdengoul, the last two being significant because they are the two primary status absorbers of the tier, and would otherwise love to switch in to Spore.

For Tera, I found Fire the most useful for walling Volcorona and hitting Corviknight and Kingsgambit, as well as hitting its fellow Grass types like Breloom, Meowskarado, or Amoongus (who would also like to absorb Spore), but Fairy can work too if you want to hit Dragonite and tank a CC from Great Tusk, while still keeping coverage for Breloom and Meowskarado.

And as I mentioned a few pages back, combining this Death Cap with Sun and Trick Room is utterly gross.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I feel like Garganacl and Espathra are both really unhealthy elements of the meta and I wouldn't mind it if both of them were suspected. Sure, Chien-Pao is insanely strong in the meta and likely deserves to be suspected as well, but I think it's overshadowing a different dynamic that makes Garg and Espathra feel unhealthy to me. I've always strongly disliked Volcarona in previous gens because it felt like it could just 6-0 viable teams if it happened to have the right set or if it gets a little bit of luck (and this was actually demonstrated in an SM SPL game from this morning). I remember McMeghan saying before that some people were expressing the desire to have Volc banned in every generation for this reason, and Roro said that he "unironically agreed." It's not like Volc is necessarily overpowered in previous gens, but it just feels unhealthy to me in how it can completely swing the outcome of games, and rarely offers too much value if it can't sweep (although a well-played Volc is much more consistently valuable beyond just setting up than Espathra is in SV). Now, I don't feel like McMeghan was being completely serious or that that discussion is particularly relevant, but to me it highlights the problem with things like Garg and Espathra. Garg is the better of the two in the current meta, and it provides support through things like being a Rocks setter and can defensively check some important threats, so it does offer some value to the meta, but it can also just get sweep even seemingly well-prepared teams with subtle adjustments to its set (as seen in this SPL replay). Espathra isn't as reliable as Garg in the current meta, but in some ways, I even dislike it more because Espathra doesn't really add any value to the tier except for being a cheesy 6-0 threat (demonstrated here in another SPL replay). Like what value even comes about from Espathra's inclusion in the tier? I get that this is more about how you philosophically view tiering, but I really don't see much worth in keeping such potent "matchup threats" in a tier. I know that other people feel like only truly "overpowered" or restricting mons should be banned and that Smogon's ruleset should mirror cart as much as possible, and I respect that. However, I feel like Showdown has enough deviation from cart anyway and the scene is distinct enough that tiering should primarily be approached from a perspective of "trying to improve the tier" (and obviously, that's extremely subjective), so even though Espathra is likely the "weakest" in the current meta when I compared to Chien-Pao and Garg, I believe that it offers the least value to the health of the tier. Overall, I would be happy if all of Chien-Pao, Garg, and Espathra were tested, but for different reasons.

Also, I will just mention that it's a little ironic to me that I don't feel exactly the same way about Volc this gen as I do about it in gens 6-7 (and maybe 8 too), even though Volc is thriving at the moment. Most Volc's seem to be running a bulkier set with Wisp and Morning Sun, which can still 6-0, but all of the Unaware mons and Pex can prevent that set from doing so. However, with "the right set," and especially with Tera, Volc can still be a matchup/hax fishing threat to sweep and I still strongly dislike it for that reason lol.

 

[Venuesaur]

Meowscarada's issue as a Protean Mon (or at least a comparative disadvantage) is moreso that its movepool isn't as high BP as Cinderace's and the coverage it gets in just a few moves isn't quite as oppressive as what Greninja could manage. Grass/Dark aren't bad offensive typings but they're more easily tanked than Fire or Fighting for example (plus Knock Off, while good utility, only hits that hard the first time).

I'd say Cinderace is holding up the best thanks to its speed and having the most immediate power of the Protean users. Not that the other two are bad (we haven't had much time with Gren yet), but Meowscarada feels almost like it was designed around the old version of Protean with its more reigned-in Base Power and Coverage options (were it to be "always-STAB" instead of just first STAB).

I'd argue meow is better mainly bc knock and flower trick are rly good. None of cinder's moves are actually all that threatening in practice because a lot of grounds and waters hard-wall it regardless of what you do. fire/fighting or fire/poison is actually kind of subpar coverage rn. As well, its main draw isn't its offensive utility (which it cant really take advantage of bc it hates dropping boots) but being able to court change, but this is only rly worthwhile against HO teams. It's not very reliable removal, although it can be annoying to deal with. However if you run it, you lose out on valuable cvg/utility options. Bc of this it actually feels very weak for a base 116 attack mon; it's 4mss is really severe and I actually think A is way too high on the VR for it. It's not bad, but it's just mediocre. Meow on the other hand only really needs flower trick and knock off to hit everything neutrally bar niche mons, has a much easier time exploiting its offense with band, or can run utility sets with taunt/spikes. Also knock is the best move in the game and flower trick with crit is a pretty high bp move with benefits into mons like curse dozo + bu great tusk. It's just much easier to slap on imo.

Gren seems really good offensively though ngl but we'll see how that plays out. The tier isn't built for special water mons rn.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I'd say Cinderace is holding up the best thanks to its speed and having the most immediate power of the Protean users. Not that the other two are bad (we haven't had much time with Gren yet), but Meowscarada feels almost like it was designed around the old version of Protean with its more reigned-in Base Power and Coverage options (were it to be "always-STAB" instead of just first STAB).

I would say that Gren is the easiest to fit on teams beacuse of his movepool, he can run whatever the team needs and do a good job, while trying to predict which set is running can make the opponent lose momentum.
Btw, I think something might be wrong with protean rn, I didn't save the replay, but yesterday I had a game where Gren OHKO a tera water Great Tusk with hydro pump, however, looking at the calc later it wasn't possible under the conditions on that game.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Great Tusk on a critical hit: 248-292 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For reference, in the same game the same greninja did around 80% to a Scizor with the same Hydro pump and that game (that Scizor used defog so it couldn't be AV).
If we look at the calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Tera Water Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Great Tusk on a critical hit: 331-390 (89.2 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It is possible to KO with tera, the thing it that I didn't tera. My guess is that protean got bugged and that second time using hydro gave me the tera boost on top of the stab.

 

[Venuesaur]

I would say that Gren is the easiest to fit on teams beacuse of his movepool, he can run whatever the team needs and do a good job, while trying to predict which set is running can make the opponent lose momentum.
Btw, I think something might be wrong with protean rn, I didn't save the replay, but yesterday I had a game where Gren OHKO a tera water Great Tusk with hydro pump, however, looking at the calc later it wasn't possible under the conditions on that game.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Great Tusk on a critical hit: 248-292 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For reference, in the same game the same greninja did around 80% to a Scizor with the same Hydro pump and that game (that Scizor used defog so it couldn't be AV).
If we look at the calc:
252 SpA Life Orb Tera Water Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Great Tusk on a critical hit: 331-390 (89.2 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It is possible to KO with tera, the thing it that I didn't tera. My guess is that protean got bugged and that second time using hydro gave me the tera boost on top of the stab.

I think tera still stacks on top of protean so idt thats a glitch

 

[Mega Breloom]

I think tera still stacks on top of protean so idt thats a glitch

The thing is that I didn't tera, the sequence was:
1-Gren uses hydro on a Scizor
2-Switch into a sac, Scizor used U-turn to Great Tusk at 100%
3-Gren comes back, uses hydro without tera, Great Tusk tera into water and gets OHKO with the crit.

 

[Novax]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I feel like Garganacl and Espathra are both really unhealthy elements of the meta and I wouldn't mind it if both of them were suspected. Sure, Chien-Pao is insanely strong in the meta and likely deserves to be suspected as well, but I think it's overshadowing a different dynamic that makes Garg and Espathra feel unhealthy to me. I've always strongly disliked Volcarona in previous gens because it felt like it could just 6-0 viable teams if it happened to have the right set or if it gets a little bit of luck (and this was actually demonstrated in an SM SPL game from this morning). I remember McMeghan saying before that some people were expressing the desire to have Volc banned in every generation for this reason, and Roro said that he "unironically agreed." It's not like Volc is necessarily overpowered in previous gens, but it just feels unhealthy to me in how it can completely swing the outcome of games, and rarely offers too much value if it can't sweep (although a well-played Volc is much more consistently valuable beyond just setting up than Espathra is in SV). Now, I don't feel like McMeghan was being completely serious or that that discussion is particularly relevant, but to me it highlights the problem with things like Garg and Espathra. Garg is the better of the two in the current meta, and it provides support through things like being a Rocks setter and can defensively check some important threats, so it does offer some value to the meta, but it can also just get sweep even seemingly well-prepared teams with subtle adjustments to its set (as seen in this SPL replay). Espathra isn't as reliable as Garg in the current meta, but in some ways, I even dislike it more because Espathra doesn't really add any value to the tier except for being a cheesy 6-0 threat (demonstrated here in another SPL replay). Like what value even comes about from Espathra's inclusion in the tier? I get that this is more about how you philosophically view tiering, but I really don't see much worth in keeping such potent "matchup threats" in a tier. I know that other people feel like only truly "overpowered" or restricting mons should be banned and that Smogon's ruleset should mirror cart as much as possible, and I respect that. However, I feel like Showdown has enough deviation from cart anyway and the scene is distinct enough that tiering should primarily be approached from a perspective of "trying to improve the tier" (and obviously, that's extremely subjective), so even though Espathra is likely the "weakest" in the current meta when I compared to Chien-Pao and Garg, I believe that it offers the least value to the health of the tier. Overall, I would be happy if all of Chien-Pao, Garg, and Espathra were tested, but for different reasons.

Also, I will just mention that it's a little ironic to me that I don't feel exactly the same way about Volc this gen as I do about it in gens 6-7 (and maybe 8 too), even though Volc is thriving at the moment. Most Volc's seem to be running a bulkier set with Wisp and Morning Sun, which can still 6-0, but all of the Unaware mons and Pex can prevent that set from doing so. However, with "the right set," and especially with Tera, Volc can still be a matchup/hax fishing threat to sweep and I still strongly dislike it for that reason lol.

Garg is a bit annoying to deal with as long as you are not running double regen core thats pretty true . But as far as Espathra is concerned , the best possible way to check espathra is to always pressure it and not allowing it to set up . Trick Gholdengo is one option . Gholdengo resists both of the moves espathra runs , and can trick a choice scarf onto it , making it a dead weight for your opponent to bear for the rest of the match . Tera Steel Roaring Moon is another option which just straight up beats espathra [ also long as it is not like + 6 sp atk , +6 sp def ] . Tera Dark Roaring Moon even lives a +1 dazzling gleam and OHKOes in return . As a whole , I believe , Espathra seemed like a problem early one , but the metagame has somewhat developed around it .

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

Garg is a bit annoying to deal with as long as you are not running double regen core thats pretty true . But as far as Espathra is concerned , the best possible way to check espathra is to always pressure it and not allowing it to set up . Trick Gholdengo is one option . Gholdengo resists both of the moves espathra runs , and can trick a choice scarf onto it , making it a dead weight for your opponent to bear for the rest of the match . Tera Steel Roaring Moon is another option which just straight up beats espathra [ also long as it is not like + 6 sp atk , +6 sp def ] . Tera Dark Roaring Moon even lives a +1 dazzling gleam and OHKOes in return . As a whole , I believe , Espathra seemed like a problem early one , but the metagame has somewhat developed around it .

Yeah, I agree with all of that. I think I’m just mainly coming from more of a philosophical standpoint where I don’t think that Espathra adds much value at all to the tier but it can do a lot of harm if it gets the matchup fish correct. I also understand that that can be said about pretty much any setup sweeper but to me, the volatility and effectiveness of Espathra still sets it apart from something like Cloyster, for example. So I guess that I’m just saying that even though Espathra isn’t as potent as it once was, it still doesn’t feel healthy to me. I get that I may be in the minority about that and maybe I’m just biased against the stupid Sia-lookalike ostrich, but that’s just how I feel about it lol

 

[LoseToRU?]

I was thinking about trapping Nature Madness Fini from Gen 8 and I thought...

TRAP-YU

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Fairy/Water/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Sand Tomb
- Earthquake
- Ruination

OR

Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Fairy/Water/Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Taunt
- Mean Look
- Earthquake
- Ruination

Sand Tomb can end/miss which may be an issue, so mean look is most likely the better option.

The idea obviously is to trap something your team needs gone.
First mon that came to mind was MU Moth- which really only has 1 counter or so per team.
Really though, you could trap a Dark like opposing Ting or King with it to make room for Espa.

The issue is, what does this mon trap that is doesn't already scare out?
I would like to trap something like Garg, but I can only see it staying in if it Terra Fairy or something and got comfortable.
Or just decides to set up SR since it can eat an EQ even w/o Terra.

I was thinking Don maybe, to make room for your Pao.
Or trapping Pal-Tauros, again for Pao.

Or maybe don't Terra and trap Rotom, again lol for broken Pao.

I'm not a fantastic builder outside of HO and BO, so I need some feedback.

This is either a useless set, or an undiscovered threat.

Please take a look at the tier and what this would bait in and trap, and then what mons could abuse that.

Literally any feedback or ideas would be appreciated ^.^

 

[Turtlek]

The thing is that I didn't tera, the sequence was:
1-Gren uses hydro on a Scizor
2-Switch into a sac, Scizor used U-turn to Great Tusk at 100%
3-Gren comes back, uses hydro without tera, Great Tusk tera into water and gets OHKO with the crit.

Could you be Torrent?

 

[Mega Breloom]

Could you be Torrent?

It is protean 100%, but now that you mentioned it, my Gren got in the torrent range with life orb so maybe it is a bug with Gren stacking abilities.

 

[Novax]

It is protean 100%, but now that you mentioned it, my Gren got in the torrent range with life orb so maybe it is a bug with Gren stacking abilities.

do you possibly have a replay of the game

 

[Mega Breloom]

do you possibly have a replay of the game

Sadly no, didn't thought it was something weird until after I checked something in the calculator.My gren is this one
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
There was not rain, Tusk was at full and tera into a water type, I didn't tera and Gren changed type with protean.

 

[Novax]

Sadly no, didn't thought it was something weird until after I checked something in the calculator.My gren is this one
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump
- U-turn
There was not rain, Tusk was at full and tera into a water type, I didn't tera and Gren changed type with protean.

it is possible if the tusk had the wrong nature and a layer of spike was up
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tera Water Great Tusk on a critical hit: 276-325 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
other possibilities : perhaps you missed something
or its some sort of glitch

 

[PeachJuiceOwO]

Shadow Ball is not bad , but hex is more long term . Wow allows you to cripple physical attackers , and is also a nice way to get chip damage on toxapex or other poison types .

Yeah I think that is why I think hex is much worse. Like someone else also said hex is better for long games and the teams I am using don't tend to have games longer than 40 turns

 

[Ibaragi]

1. Who do you feel are the best Scarfers right now?

Gholdengo would still be the best because of having just enough speed to outspeed anything unboosted and trick off the scarf, while still doing Gholdengo things.
2nd place for me goes to Rotom-Wash tho. Still outspeeds everything unboosted, including Chien-Pao, can Trick like Gholdengo and has a great typing and defensive stats that allow it to switch into some stuff and either trick, revenge kill or just volt-switch out with decent damage.
Other good ones include Cinderace and Greninja but I'm unimpressed with Gren so far (too soon to tell, though) and I don't think Cinderace gains much from the Scarf considering his natural Speed Tier is already one of the best in the tier.
For some weird reason, I haven't faced any Scarf Garchomps at all, always being offensive rocks or defensive rocks, rarely SD. Sounds like it should be very good too, but don't have personal data.

2. In the current meta, who do you think is the best and most consistent Paldean starter? And which one do you have the most fun with competitively?

Skeledirge, no doubt.
Meowscarada is very strong and offensive Grass is very useful in the current meta with many grounds and dangerous waters and Tera-Waters (Garganacl), and STAB Knock Off is highly appreciated.
But not even that can compare with Skeledirge: defensive utility with a combination of high bulk, status move (Wisp, Yawn), recovery and Unaware is only contested by Dondozo, who is more towering in bulk but has worse recovery and offensive value. And all that PLUS the snowball potential of Torch Song. His defensive typing is lackluster, but Tera also covers that to some degree.
Quaquaval looks good on paper and can definetely can set-up itself for a full sweep, but suffers from 4MSS and gets walled by Dondozo and Azumarill, Tera-Skeledirge and Tera-Garganacl or Corviknight with Iron Defense. Little defensive value and overall balanced stats just make him a decent mon, but worse than the other two in most situations.

3. Who do you think is the best Protean mon overall from what you've experienced? Do you feel like the nerf the ability received was fair?

The best mon WITH Protean would be Meowscarda imo, but not so much BECAUSE of Protean in her case.
If we're talking about who uses Protean best, I'd put my money on Cinderace. Very wide movepool, high base speed to play around with its type and high BP moves that allow it to exploit it to its best work best with him. I feel Greninja lacks the firepower in comparison to Cinderace and Meowscarada, and is also slower than Meowscarada. Greninja's virtue is being harder to predict, but I'd still consider him a worse Protean user than Cinderace, although maybe better than Meowscarada.
As for the nerf, nerfing Protean was a necessity. I feel like the result makes it too weak compared with what it was, but it also feels like a good idea that nerfs it without changing its spirit, so I'm ok with it. Definitely better than no nerf, that's for sure.

___________________________

grass dark isn't one of the worst offensive typings in the game though?

it's one of the worst DEFENSIVE typings in the game, with a plethora of weaknesses and a x4 weakness to U-Turn. Offensively, Dark hits a lot of stuff neutrally and has Knock Off STAB to account for; whereas Grass is resisted by a lot of things but is very anti-meta in hitting common defensive typings in Water and Ground supereffectively, not to mention the niche it has to hit Water/Ground types in the metas where that matters.

 

[LunaPhoebe]

FROG'S BACK I'M COMIN OUT OF VACATION

 

[1LDK]

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Fuck Zodiac sings, let's play a game, the game is called
"what the last move on your specs gren says about you"


-Grass Knot
1) he feels cool about killing giants like David and Goliath
2) he loves using Low Kick on Weavile on Gen 8 Ubers
3) "this reminds me of that one time when I fell at school and everybody laughed at me"

Actual explanation and benefits

As seen recently, Grass Knot has a niche due to the heavy amount of Heavyweight mons, that are either weak or neutral to grass, forcing them to tera in order to not get badly destoyed, thing is, because its a weight move, you will deal heavy damage regardless, grass also has some utility in absorbing spore and grass attacks from unsuspecting mons

-Extrasensory
1) He hated pex on gen 7, he hated pex on gen 8, still hates pex in gen 9 despite the nerfs
2) He once tried to challenge Finchinator to a battle with 6 toxapex counters, somehow still losed to pex, has never been the same since
3) "At least Ferrothorn is not in the game anymore"

Actual explanation and benefits

While seen as a move that is there just to counter pex, this meta has a particulary high amount of psychic weak mons, tusk, valiant, pawmot, hands, moth, glimmora, quaquaval, clodsire, breloom and amongus, these are some of the most dangerous mons around, and having a way to hit them all safely seems promising for a move that is ofteen seen as a meme

-U Turn
1) He swears he is gonna use it to keep momentum, never uses it anyways, refuses to change it because he swears its gonna be usefull one day
2) it's so pasive agresive about his choices in the game that has been afecting his personality on real life
3) Hates Tankchomp, still U-turns on the obvious chomp switch in

Actual explanation and benefits

U-Turn is a move extremly friendly on choice locked mons due to the fact that if predicted correctly (and this is easier thanks to the fact that your switching out with little consecuence afterwards), you can pivot out of an incoming thread, while generating offensive momentum and valuable chip damage, not to mention getting a friend in that can either counter the mon infront of you or a mon that uturn once again, theres a reason volt turn teams are one of the most dangerous if played correctly

-Spikes
1) bro why you running spikes on a frail choice locked mon?
2) Somehow manages to get away with it
3) All his teams get 6-0 by corviknight on paper, has never losed to one in his life

Actual explanation and benefits

I really dont understand why you people do this, MY GUESS is for role compression and abusing the fact that your generating switches due to your natural power, therefore, getting them for free and a potential electric inmunity that turns your counters into free momentum grabbing for you, but I just dont feel comfortable with it man, can someone sell me on this?

If you think I forgot a move that should be mentioned, please let me know, what do you guys are going to run

 

[Athyestic]

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Fuck Zodiac sings, let's play a game, the game is called
"what the last move on your specs gren says about you"


-Grass Knot
1) he feels cool about killing giants like David and Goliath
2) he loves using Low Kick on Weavile on Gen 8 Ubers
3) "this reminds me of that one time when I fell at school and everybody laughed at me"

Actual explanation and benefits

As seen recently, Grass Knot has a niche due to the heavy amount of Heavyweight mons, that are either weak or neutral to grass, forcing them to tera in order to not get badly destoyed, thing is, because its a weight move, you will deal heavy damage regardless, grass also has some utility in absorbing spore and grass attacks from unsuspecting mons

-Extrasensory
1) He hated pex on gen 7, he hated pex on gen 8, still hates pex in gen 9 despite the nerfs
2) He once tried to challenge Finchinator to a battle with 6 toxapex counters, somehow still losed to pex, has never been the same since
3) "At least Ferrothorn is not in the game anymore"

Actual explanation and benefits

While seen as a move that is there just to counter pex, this meta has a particulary high amount of psychic weak mons, tusk, valiant, pawmot, hands, moth, glimmora, quaquaval, clodsire, breloom and amongus, these are some of the most dangerous mons around, and having a way to hit them all safely seems promising for a move that is ofteen seen as a meme

-U Turn
1) He swears he is gonna use it to keep momentum, never uses it anyways, refuses to change it because he swears its gonna be usefull one day
2) it's so pasive agresive about his choices in the game that has been afecting his personality on real life
3) Hates Tankchomp, still U-turns on the obvious chomp switch in

Actual explanation and benefits

U-Turn is a move extremly friendly on choice locked mons due to the fact that if predicted correctly (and this is easier thanks to the fact that your switching out with little consecuence afterwards), you can pivot out of an incoming thread, while generating offensive momentum and valuable chip damage, not to mention getting a friend in that can either counter the mon infront of you or a mon that uturn once again, theres a reason volt turn teams are one of the most dangerous if played correctly

-Spikes
1) bro why you running spikes on a frail choice locked mon?
2) Somehow manages to get away with it
3) All his teams get 6-0 by corviknight on paper, has never losed to one in his life

Actual explanation and benefits

I really dont understand why you people do this, MY GUESS is for role compression and abusing the fact that your generating switches due to your natural power, therefore, getting them for free and a potential electric inmunity that turns your counters into free momentum grabbing for you, but I just dont feel comfortable with it man, can someone sell me on this?

If you think I forgot a move that should be mentioned, please let me know, what do you guys are going to run

-Toxic Spikes
1) no one knew what you were cooking
2) you'll still get away with it some of the time
3) your opponents will not know the fact that gren learns toxic spikes

serious

Spikes but you can have an actual spiker + surprise factor basically

 

[Eeveeto]

-Tera Blast (Fire)
1) You forgot Ferro isn't in the game.
2) Corviknight Teras and laughs at your tricks.
3) You somehow come across a Glaceon and avoid losing to it.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Fuck Zodiac sings, let's play a game, the game is called
"what the last move on your specs gren says about you"


-Grass Knot
1) he feels cool about killing giants like David and Goliath
2) he loves using Low Kick on Weavile on Gen 8 Ubers
3) "this reminds me of that one time when I fell at school and everybody laughed at me"

Actual explanation and benefits

As seen recently, Grass Knot has a niche due to the heavy amount of Heavyweight mons, that are either weak or neutral to grass, forcing them to tera in order to not get badly destoyed, thing is, because its a weight move, you will deal heavy damage regardless, grass also has some utility in absorbing spore and grass attacks from unsuspecting mons

-Extrasensory
1) He hated pex on gen 7, he hated pex on gen 8, still hates pex in gen 9 despite the nerfs
2) He once tried to challenge Finchinator to a battle with 6 toxapex counters, somehow still losed to pex, has never been the same since
3) "At least Ferrothorn is not in the game anymore"

Actual explanation and benefits

While seen as a move that is there just to counter pex, this meta has a particulary high amount of psychic weak mons, tusk, valiant, pawmot, hands, moth, glimmora, quaquaval, clodsire, breloom and amongus, these are some of the most dangerous mons around, and having a way to hit them all safely seems promising for a move that is ofteen seen as a meme

-U Turn
1) He swears he is gonna use it to keep momentum, never uses it anyways, refuses to change it because he swears its gonna be usefull one day
2) it's so pasive agresive about his choices in the game that has been afecting his personality on real life
3) Hates Tankchomp, still U-turns on the obvious chomp switch in

Actual explanation and benefits

U-Turn is a move extremly friendly on choice locked mons due to the fact that if predicted correctly (and this is easier thanks to the fact that your switching out with little consecuence afterwards), you can pivot out of an incoming thread, while generating offensive momentum and valuable chip damage, not to mention getting a friend in that can either counter the mon infront of you or a mon that uturn once again, theres a reason volt turn teams are one of the most dangerous if played correctly

-Spikes
1) bro why you running spikes on a frail choice locked mon?
2) Somehow manages to get away with it
3) All his teams get 6-0 by corviknight on paper, has never losed to one in his life

Actual explanation and benefits

I really dont understand why you people do this, MY GUESS is for role compression and abusing the fact that your generating switches due to your natural power, therefore, getting them for free and a potential electric inmunity that turns your counters into free momentum grabbing for you, but I just dont feel comfortable with it man, can someone sell me on this?

If you think I forgot a move that should be mentioned, please let me know, what do you guys are going to run

U turn, gotta keep that pressure up. Also been playing gren myself and choiced seems the best. I tried boots, to switch up moves, but the lower speed is painfully relevant. Specs I haven't tried but the extra power would've definitely been appreciated in some moments. Has anyone been able to use spikes on gren well?

 

[658Greninja]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I feel like Garganacl and Espathra are both really unhealthy elements of the meta and I wouldn't mind it if both of them were suspected. Sure, Chien-Pao is insanely strong in the meta and likely deserves to be suspected as well, but I think it's overshadowing a different dynamic that makes Garg and Espathra feel unhealthy to me. I've always strongly disliked Volcarona in previous gens because it felt like it could just 6-0 viable teams if it happened to have the right set or if it gets a little bit of luck (and this was actually demonstrated in an SM SPL game from this morning). I remember McMeghan saying before that some people were expressing the desire to have Volc banned in every generation for this reason, and Roro said that he "unironically agreed." It's not like Volc is necessarily overpowered in previous gens, but it just feels unhealthy to me in how it can completely swing the outcome of games, and rarely offers too much value if it can't sweep (although a well-played Volc is much more consistently valuable beyond just setting up than Espathra is in SV). Now, I don't feel like McMeghan was being completely serious or that that discussion is particularly relevant, but to me it highlights the problem with things like Garg and Espathra. Garg is the better of the two in the current meta, and it provides support through things like being a Rocks setter and can defensively check some important threats, so it does offer some value to the meta, but it can also just get sweep even seemingly well-prepared teams with subtle adjustments to its set (as seen in this SPL replay). Espathra isn't as reliable as Garg in the current meta, but in some ways, I even dislike it more because Espathra doesn't really add any value to the tier except for being a cheesy 6-0 threat (demonstrated here in another SPL replay). Like what value even comes about from Espathra's inclusion in the tier? I get that this is more about how you philosophically view tiering, but I really don't see much worth in keeping such potent "matchup threats" in a tier. I know that other people feel like only truly "overpowered" or restricting mons should be banned and that Smogon's ruleset should mirror cart as much as possible, and I respect that. However, I feel like Showdown has enough deviation from cart anyway and the scene is distinct enough that tiering should primarily be approached from a perspective of "trying to improve the tier" (and obviously, that's extremely subjective), so even though Espathra is likely the "weakest" in the current meta when I compared to Chien-Pao and Garg, I believe that it offers the least value to the health of the tier. Overall, I would be happy if all of Chien-Pao, Garg, and Espathra were tested, but for different reasons.

Also, I will just mention that it's a little ironic to me that I don't feel exactly the same way about Volc this gen as I do about it in gens 6-7 (and maybe 8 too), even though Volc is thriving at the moment. Most Volc's seem to be running a bulkier set with Wisp and Morning Sun, which can still 6-0, but all of the Unaware mons and Pex can prevent that set from doing so. However, with "the right set," and especially with Tera, Volc can still be a matchup/hax fishing threat to sweep and I still strongly dislike it for that reason lol.

In the game you used as an example to illustrate the unhealthy nature of Espathra, its more of a missplay than an example on how Espathra can 6-0 games under the right conditions. Had Ruft hard switch’d into Dirge that game instead of staying in with Garg, the outcome would’ve been different. Though I do understand that he was wanted to make wearing down Espa easier for Dirge.

Espathra was broken by Cyclizar enabling multiple free turns for Espathra to set up, thus eliminating the main downside of using it.

In a Cyclizar-less meta Espathra has far less opportunities than it did before, if it wants to replicate its former glory it would have to be paired with the high risk/high reward Orthworm who can only set up one Shed Tail per game (twice if you’re lucky or using Healing Wish). Alot of things can 2HKO Espathra in this meta and not worry about an unboosted Stored Power. When that isn’t plausible, Espathra has notable checks that are splashable AND not a full-on requirement on teams. What checks? These for example.

-Spikes
1) bro why you running spikes on a frail choice locked mon?
2) Somehow manages to get away with it
3) All his teams get 6-0 by corviknight on paper, has never losed to one in his life

Actual explanation and benefits

I really dont understand why you people do this, MY GUESS is for role compression and abusing the fact that your generating switches due to your natural power, therefore, getting them for free and a potential electric inmunity that turns your counters into free momentum grabbing for you, but I just dont feel comfortable with it man, can someone sell me on this?

If you think I forgot a move that should be mentioned, please let me know, what do you guys are going to run

Ash-Gren ran this in USUM as an option to force progress when its checks are present. Considering most of its checks are passive fatmons, Gren can get up to at most 2 spikes depending on the circumstance.

Here spikes are really good cause the main forms of hazard removal (Tusk, Corv, Cinder) want nothing to do with Gren. Plus it forces out a ton of shit with its STABs alone, meaning a layer of spike is plausible and Gren has re-entered the same gen as Ghold, this last statement is self-explanatory. Every other hazard setter contracts the same flaw of losing to either Corv, Tusk, or both. While yes Ghold can block both their hazard attempts it is nice to have a spiker that actively threatens those two. I will talk more about Gren tonight but it has alot going on for it in this meta despite nerfs.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Greninja @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Fuck Zodiac sings, let's play a game, the game is called
"what the last move on your specs gren says about you"


-Grass Knot
1) he feels cool about killing giants like David and Goliath
2) he loves using Low Kick on Weavile on Gen 8 Ubers
3) "this reminds me of that one time when I fell at school and everybody laughed at me"

Actual explanation and benefits

As seen recently, Grass Knot has a niche due to the heavy amount of Heavyweight mons, that are either weak or neutral to grass, forcing them to tera in order to not get badly destoyed, thing is, because its a weight move, you will deal heavy damage regardless, grass also has some utility in absorbing spore and grass attacks from unsuspecting mons

-Extrasensory
1) He hated pex on gen 7, he hated pex on gen 8, still hates pex in gen 9 despite the nerfs
2) He once tried to challenge Finchinator to a battle with 6 toxapex counters, somehow still losed to pex, has never been the same since
3) "At least Ferrothorn is not in the game anymore"

Actual explanation and benefits

While seen as a move that is there just to counter pex, this meta has a particulary high amount of psychic weak mons, tusk, valiant, pawmot, hands, moth, glimmora, quaquaval, clodsire, breloom and amongus, these are some of the most dangerous mons around, and having a way to hit them all safely seems promising for a move that is ofteen seen as a meme

-U Turn
1) He swears he is gonna use it to keep momentum, never uses it anyways, refuses to change it because he swears its gonna be usefull one day
2) it's so pasive agresive about his choices in the game that has been afecting his personality on real life
3) Hates Tankchomp, still U-turns on the obvious chomp switch in

Actual explanation and benefits

U-Turn is a move extremly friendly on choice locked mons due to the fact that if predicted correctly (and this is easier thanks to the fact that your switching out with little consecuence afterwards), you can pivot out of an incoming thread, while generating offensive momentum and valuable chip damage, not to mention getting a friend in that can either counter the mon infront of you or a mon that uturn once again, theres a reason volt turn teams are one of the most dangerous if played correctly

-Spikes
1) bro why you running spikes on a frail choice locked mon?
2) Somehow manages to get away with it
3) All his teams get 6-0 by corviknight on paper, has never losed to one in his life

Actual explanation and benefits

I really dont understand why you people do this, MY GUESS is for role compression and abusing the fact that your generating switches due to your natural power, therefore, getting them for free and a potential electric inmunity that turns your counters into free momentum grabbing for you, but I just dont feel comfortable with it man, can someone sell me on this?

If you think I forgot a move that should be mentioned, please let me know, what do you guys are going to run

Some people use dark mode and see this

 

[1LDK]

Some people use dark mode and see this

fixed

 

[Moyashi]

In a Cyclizar-less meta Espathra has far less opportunities than it did before, if it wants to replicate its former glory it would have to be paired with the high risk/high reward Orthworm who can only set up one Shed Tail per game (twice if you’re lucky or using Healing Wish). Alot of things can 2HKO Espathra in this meta and not worry about an unboosted Stored Power. When that isn’t plausible, Espathra has notable checks that are splashable AND not a full-on requirement on teams. What checks? These for example.

Corv is not a check at all. It can't threaten Espathra and just gets used as set up fodder. Kingambit loses to tera fighting, Hatterene gets into a calm mind battle and will lose without nuzzle, Dragonite cannot timely pressure Espathra as unboosyed attacks don't even 3HKO the ostrich. Scarf Gholdengo does work, and Skeledirge and Ting-Lu are genuine answers, but past that...

As for set up opportunities, aside from the obvious examples of defensive pokemon who are forced to recover, examples like -2 dragapult after a draco meteor, choice locked iron valiant into fighting coverage and other similar examples.

Espathra won't be the most consistent pokemon, but it's also an obnoxious match up fish which can snatch wins fairly effortlessly against teams who lack sufficient counterplay. While it's not something on most people's radar right now, it isn't something to be ignored as it's potential is very volatile.