Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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SpritePony said:
Then my problem still persists; TF do you run as your fourth move? I don't see a need to run both Hydro Steam AND Hydro Pump on the same set. The only logical moves I can think of for Specs is Tera Blast with non-Water/Dragon Tera, or Dragon Pulse so you don't just lose to Draco drops in certain late game scenarios.
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Well if you really want a "safe" move you can run tera blast electric, poison or grass for Azu if doesn't get a coverage move of those types.
 
pika pal said:
One of the appeals to Walking Wake is being able to function as an abuser AND check to both weathers at once. So if you run a Rain team, Flamethrower can break Steels outside the Sun, and you wouldn't click it under Rain the same way you wouldn't click Hurricane under Sun. You seem too insistent on the idea that all 4 moves must be frequently viable options to click, rather than focusing on the fact that Wake can more or less nail everything with its STABs and typical weather support and the other move slots are for deterring some specific counterplay options.
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Vengeance417 said:
What Pika Pal said above, but if you're really struggling to figure out a 4th move, you could also potentially run Sleep Talk to give Wake the ability to be an occasional sleep absorber, I guess. That being said, Flamethrower is still fine outside of Rain, and Hydro Pump + Hydro Steam on Rain is also fine since Pump will give you that extra oomph vs bulkier threats while Steam would be the more consistent, but weaker option.
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I mean, your logic does make sense. This thing could potentially be a good counter against opposing Rain/Sun (depending upon the team its on.) Sleep Talk is also a good choice to absorb Spore/Hypnosis/Yawn.
Hydro Steam is just a direct upgrade to Hydro Pump while in the sun, as you get 120 + STAB without the sun nerfing your power, AND 100 Accuracy.
Mega Breloom said:
Well if you really want a "safe" move you can run tera blast electric, poison or grass for Azu if doesn't get a coverage move of those types.
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I was thinking of Electric or Grass. Electric allows you to hit Flying and opposing Waters, Grass lets you hit opposing Waters, Gastros, and Quags insanely hard. I think I might try Grass.
 
SpritePony said:
Hydro Steam is just a direct upgrade to Hydro Pump while in the sun, as you get 120 + STAB without the sun nerfing your power, AND 100 Accuracy.
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Right, but I was mostly referring to having both on Rain since Steam won't be getting the BP boost while Rain is up. It'd be like Specs Keldeo from ORAS running Hydro Pump and Scald on the same set; one for power and the other as a safer option if the opponent is in range of a KO.
 
Vengeance417 said:
Right, but I was mostly referring to having both on Rain since Steam won't be getting the BP boost while Rain is up. It'd be like Specs Keldeo from ORAS running Hydro Pump and Scald on the same set; one for power and the other as a safer option if the opponent is in range of a KO.
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True, true. I never enjoyed running Hydro Miss personally. Even on my Specs Gren, I prefer Surf over it. I respect the decision on it, though.
 
Thoughts on the two new paradox mons so far? Don't really know of what Walking Wake could do outside of sun team shenanigans (first thing I thought of), but I came up with a set for Iron Leaves if anyone wants to try it. Haven't played in a while, so forgive me if the set's meh.

-Swords Dance
-Leaf Blade
-Psyblade/Night Slash
-Close Combat/Sacred Sword
EVs: 252 speed, 96 hp, 160 attack
Item: Booster Energy

Havent decided on a tera type for this thing yet (debating fighting or fire. Fire to turn many of its weaknesses into resists and fighting to remove the u-turn weakness and give it stab on the fighting move of choice if used over Night Slash), but I was thinking a setup sweeper/wallbreaker of sorts. Any thoughts?
 
Ketchup2 said:
Thoughts on the two new paradox mons so far? Don't really know of what Walking Wake could do outside of sun team shenanigans (first thing I thought of), but I came up with a set for Iron Leaves if anyone wants to try it. Haven't played in a while, so forgive me if the set's meh.

-Swords Dance
-Leaf Blade
-Psyblade/Night Slash
-Close Combat/Sacred Sword
EVs: 252 speed, 96 hp, 160 attack
Item: Booster Energy

Havent decided on a tera type for this thing yet (debating fighting or fire. Fire to turn many of its weaknesses into resists and fighting to remove the u-turn weakness and give it stab on the fighting move of choice if used over Night Slash), but I was thinking a setup sweeper/wallbreaker of sorts. Any thoughts?
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Tera Fire allows you to absolutely stuff things like QD 3 Attacks Volc and rogue stuff like Lokix.
 
Thank god Chi-Yu is banned lol. Imagine sun teams with Tusk, Moon, Chi-Yu, and Wake holy shit. I imagine when Home comes out Chi-Yu will get retested, so we will probably see this tandem in action.

Regardless, Wake is gonna be great. It gives an amazing new tool to sun teams, but it should be good outside of sun as well. It's only weak to Fairy and Dragon types. There are only 4 Fairy types in the tier, one of which - Grim - often not packing any Fairy attacks anyway. Out of the Fairy and Dragon types, only Azumarill really wants to switch into this thing. Opposing Dragons obviously get nuked by Dragon STAB, and Fairy types will be hit hard by the water STAB.

People talk about a limited movepool, but Draco+Steam+Flamethrower is hitting everything in the meta very hard. Feels like Blissey and Azu are the only reliable switch-ins in the meta, and outside of switching into this thing Blissey isn't a good option in this metagame anyway.
 
TheArchangle said:
Thank god Chi-Yu is banned lol. Imagine sun teams with Tusk, Moon, Chi-Yu, and Wake holy shit. I imagine when Home comes out Chi-Yu will get retested, so we will probably see this tandem in action.

Regardless, Wake is gonna be great. It gives an amazing new tool to sun teams, but it should be good outside of sun as well. It's only weak to Fairy and Dragon types. There are only 4 Fairy types in the tier, one of which - Grim - often not packing any Fairy attacks anyway. Out of the Fairy and Dragon types, only Azumarill really wants to switch into this thing. Opposing Dragons obviously get nuked by Dragon STAB, and Fairy types will be hit hard by the water STAB.

People talk about a limited movepool, but Draco+Steam+Flamethrower is hitting everything in the meta very hard. Feels like Blissey and Azu are the only reliable switch-ins in the meta, and outside of switching into this thing Blissey isn't a good option in this metagame anyway.
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Maybe fairies could run Utility Umbrella to take less from Hydro Steam / Flamethrower. Don't see that as a viable option on most other mons like Slowking though since Draco is a big nuke button.
 
Okay so after doing a 3-second investigation, my conclusions are

Walking Wake is still gargnacl food pls do not let it distract you, but fr tho, its move pool is a bit too small from my liking, and specs gren will totally eat this thing alive with grass knot due to its massive weight, but seems like its a cool attacker that can go with sun and rain, also weatherless, choice, sweep potential, Looser Energy item sets, etc. (thank god its unique move its not a new form of scald or i would have killed myself)

Iron Leaves has a better move pool but that 4 times weakeness to bug makes it DOA especially since U-turn is one of the most spammed passive-aggressive move in the game, its signature move works better on ET, so maybe Pincurchin is going back into tiering rank, who knows
 
Soiramio3000 said:
I leave from this site for some hours and I see a ton of people suddenly started posting here.

did something happen and I wasn't informed?

some posts mentioned home.
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There's a new Water/Dragon that dropped in the game today and people are buzzing about how its either insane or mid. Sun teams are going to love it at least.

Oh, and there's a new grass/psychic.

Basically there was a Pokémon Presents today which talked about DLC and the upcoming, still dateless, HOME update.
 
SpritePony said:
Tera Fire allows you to absolutely stuff things like QD 3 Attacks Volc and rogue stuff like Lokix.
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That is true, that and Leaf Blade lets it hit everything it becomes weak to after becoming a fire type. That sounds like the way to go from first glance.
Also Gholdengo screws it over if it doesn't go Night Slash, so it may need help with that.
 
1LDK said:
Walking Wake is still gargnacl food
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Nah:

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Garganacl in Sun: 220-259 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Garganacl in Sun: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 237-280 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

244 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 316-374 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And that's just with a set to have Protosynthesis boost Speed.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Garganacl in Sun: 288-339 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Steam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Garganacl in Sun: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 312-367 (77.2 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Tera Dragon Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Water Garganacl: 416-490 (102.9 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Garganacl in Rain: 303-357 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Water Walking Wake Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Ghost Garganacl in Rain: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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I legitimately am struggling to build Sun right now. How the hell do you guys do it, especially with the addition of Wake?

I scrapped my original one and am struggling to find a good squad that balances out defensively. So far I have Tork, Wake, Offensive Tusk, X, Screaming Banshee, and Corviknight. I legit cannot figure out what to slot in for the last one... Everything I know is screaming to put in a Grass, but the only good physical grasses are Meow, Breloom, Tsareena, and Unga Bunga. Meow, Loom, an Bunga all give me a third Fairy weakness, and Tsareena is always a Spin support, rather than an offensive pressure mon.
My only other choice would be like... SD 3 Attacks Leafeon, and that's subpar at best. I have no idea what I'm doing here, lmao.
 
SpritePony said:
Then my problem still persists; TF do you run as your fourth move? I don't see a need to run both Hydro Steam AND Hydro Pump on the same set. The only logical moves I can think of for Specs is Tera Blast with non-Water/Dragon Tera, or Dragon Pulse so you don't just lose to Draco drops in certain late game scenarios.
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Hydro Pump is a much stronger move compared to Hydro Steam; still, Hydro Steam is more reliable since it has 100% accuracy and 16 PPs compared to the 8 of Pump, and it also allows you to have a strong Water STAB move to face opposing Sun teams. Think of it as Chi-Yu running both Flamethrower and Overheat: the first one you use as your low-effort, spammable STAB move, and the second one you use to nuke something, especially after you Tera Water with Specs.
I think with Specs you can easily justify running a Hydro Pump/Hydro Steam/Draco/Flamethrower set, since you really don't need much else. But if you really hate the idea of running 2 STAB moves you can simply slap Tera Blast on its moveset or even Aqua Jet.
 
SpritePony said:
I legitimately am struggling to build Sun right now. How the hell do you guys do it, especially with the addition of Wake?

I scrapped my original one and am struggling to find a good squad that balances out defensively. So far I have Tork, Wake, Offensive Tusk, X, Screaming Banshee, and Corviknight. I legit cannot figure out what to slot in for the last one... Everything I know is screaming to put in a Grass, but the only good physical grasses are Meow, Breloom, Tsareena, and Unga Bunga. Meow, Loom, an Bunga all give me a third Fairy weakness, and Tsareena is always a Spin support, rather than an offensive pressure mon.
My only other choice would be like... SD 3 Attacks Leafeon, and that's subpar at best. I have no idea what I'm doing here, lmao.
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i feel most competent suns pack the core of torkoal/tusk/hatterene. hatterene covers a lot of ground between healing wish support, magic bounce, and being naturally useful w/ an eject button to quickly and effectively enable abusers, torkoal is torkoal, and tusk is great as a general phys tank, removal option, proto abuser, and a breaker. in terms of dedicated abusers, it's generally really malleable so long as you think abt the kind of pokemon your sun abusers pressure and how realistically you can enable them

most protosynthesis abusers mesh fairly well with sun too ofc but it really depends on the sets you're running. choice band roaring moon w/ speed protosynthesis is a pretty easy go-to and generally effective, especially as it packs u-turn to double as both a breaker and a pivot. i've been using a bulk up flame charge leech life set on slither wing that's really strong and can snowball like crazy. relatedly @ your grass question, bonnet is really solid. has been seeing some usage the past few weeks in spl and the combo of protosynthesis-boosted loaded dice bullet seed, generally consistent dark-stab and spore is pretty nifty. we see a lot of tera fire as well, sometimes with tera blast. scream tail is the only one i would discourage using as it overlaps weaknesses w/ hatterene and you want as many turns to lay out the hurt as possible, which scream tail just cannot do unless you use the protosynthesis boosts to make it easier to set up cms ig. and now there's walking wake which i feel is gonna probably be a staple.

fire-type breakers are options that exist but i think are less splashable. spl has seen focus sash + weak armor ceruledge usage, and sun-boosted bitter blade even without sd boosts hurts like all hell; it also pairs great with hatterene. absolutely love iron moth on sun tbh, particularly speed-boosting quark drive with tera ground and tera blast, as sun-boosted fiery dance is super spammable. cinderace is p good as an offensive pivot. tho if you really want something else, charizard is an explosive but volatile option, though you absolutely need pivoting support which goes back to what i was saying abt team coherency/synergy so you can properly enable your abusers.

chlorophyll users are... fine? i dont particularly like them that much. scovillain is probably your best option there, with both lefties wisp and life orb tera blast being decent options so long as you have a way to respond to priority moves or quark drive/scarf valiant. lilligant i've been meaning to try esp since tera blast gives it actual coverage, but it's probably not all that good

tl;dr. as long as you have koal/tusk/hat and you think about the coherency/overlap of your abusers you'll generally be fine
 
1LDK said:
I can't give full on thoughts and stuff but maybe we are gonna hear again the legendary phrase from gen 3

"Man, CM Crocune has no weakness"

Also, this is gonna sound impresive coming from me, the biggest Booster Energy Hater on the block, but maybe these 2 can viable run the item instead of looking like clowns like every other setter
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Hello? Iron Valiant? Mixed is one of its best sets and one of the better cleaners in this tier.
 
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