Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i just want to point out that this is a meta with four viable unaware users, one of which has powerful substitute-ignoring stab, and yet shed tail + setup is still dominating high ladder. something about that just doesn't feel right to me

 

[1LDK]

4 unaware users
1000000000000000000000000000000 set-up sweepers

and yet Garganacl is the one that inspires sub on literally everything
haven't you guys though about that?

Eventually I'll make a gigantic post about every single reason why garg is cancer, just quick ban tail and garg pls

 

[Finchinator]

I find it amusing that people are asking for us to quickban Garganacl when it has never received close to enough support for that (or even enough for a clear suspect). Like do y’all want the same council you constantly complain about to abuse its power to fit your personal narrative? That ain’t it.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I find it amusing that people are asking for us to quickban Garganacl when it has never received close to enough support for that (or even enough for a clear suspect). Like do y’all want the same council you constantly complain about to abuse its power to fit your personal narrative? That ain’t it.

no, don't you understand, that's what the council is for! you're not supposed to reflect the views of the community at large, you're supposed to unilaterally and immediately ban and unban things exactly in line with my personal preference because i know more about what is and isn't good for the meta than a panel of experts! and it has to be the exact amount of tiering action i want, and at the exact time i want it! anything faster is an abuse of power and anything slower is laziness!!!! /s

Eventually I'll make a gigantic post about every single reason why garg is cancer

here, i'll save you the trouble and make the post for you.

behold, every reason to ban garganacl:

 

[taziathegreat]

The opportunity to legitimately quick ban Garg was prior to the release of greninja and wake. That window is long gone. To talk about it now you look crazy honestly.

Speaking of which I want to shout out the council again for leading the meta affectively blind for the last three months. I think literally something changed about the meta every two weeks it’s been an unprecedented amount of change and fluctuations and Finch and the crew have done a good job navigating uncharted territory

 

[Return to Zero]

I find it amusing that people are asking for us to quickban Garganacl when it has never received close to enough support for that (or even enough for a clear suspect). Like do y’all want the same council you constantly complain about to abuse its power to fit your personal narrative? That ain’t it.

This. So much of this. Polls have been run, the generation has been going for months, but Garg has never had a big enough push to actually have any action taken against it. I've said before that I could go either way on it, and that's because I really don't see Garg being this huge oppressive presence that chokes the top of the ladder. It's really looking like it's just a very strong option. Now that Wake is something a majority of people have decided they want in OU, I don't see how this extremely HO-leaning metagame is shut down and made unplayable by one of the few top tier defensive options.

 

[Magcargo]

no, don't you understand, that's what the council is for! you're not supposed to reflect the views of the community at large, you're supposed to unilaterally and immediately ban and unban things exactly in line with my personal preference because i know more about what is and isn't good for the meta than a panel of experts! and it has to be the exact amount of tiering action i want, and at the exact time i want it! anything faster is an abuse of power and anything slower is laziness!!!!

Shoot, you're right. Council better unban Giratina-A straight away!

The meta does feel like it developing at a fast pace. It feels like only yesterday that Walking Wake Sun was dominating the ladder & now offense has largely taken over. It makes it somewhat hard to pinpoint any particular Pokemon as problematic. Not helping matters is that a lot of the most popular Pokemon, like Gholdengo, Garg, Dragapult, Kingambit, Great Tusks all feel like they are necessary parts of the metagame because they keep one another in check (depending on which set they run). In short, the metagame looks a lot like this:

 

[Red Raven]

4 unaware users

Wait, 4? I know Skeledirge, Clodsire and Dondozo are viable in the tier but who's the fourth?

 

[Ctann]

New heat set, battle dondozo:



Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Def
Impish Nature
- Wave Crash
- Body Press
- Curse
- Rest

Explanation of what it is

very simple adjustment to the standard specially defensive set. The difference is this dondozo is designed to trade hits with physical attackers rather than be a wincon. Although, thanks to the amount of physical attackers that are walled by it, in some cases it can wincon.

excellent against offensive teams due to the high power attacks. Can still pull weight against balance and slow teams due to rocky helmet forcing damage on Pokémon’s like corviknight.

The inspiration for this set was the original 252/252 impish set that did very well in the chien pao days. Unfortunately that set isn’t as good now due to the prevalence of dragapult, increased offensive switchins, and more bulky Pokémon that like to switch in.

The play style with this take of dondozo is to force damage with rocky helmet, and spam your attacks to hurt the most common switchins. In some instances, click curse to sweep or allow you to OHKO a switchin.

obviously this set still completely walls a lot of the OU physical attackers like dragonite, roaring moon, baxcalibur, ceruledge, etc.

about the set EV spread

high attack and defence investment allow you to force more damage on physical attackers whilst also having enough power to hurt the most common offensive/non-passive switchins. We are talking:

a 3hko on dragapult, which can become a 2hko with hazards.

body press is doing a reasonable chunk, this is very powerful if you have knock off support.

even gholdengo with defensive profiles hate taking wave crash on the switch. You’ll likely force a recover

In regards to passive or defensive switch ins, you have Pokémon like toxapex, amonguss and water absorb closure that won’t care about any set dondozo runs regardless, whilst others like corviknight and ting lu are unreliable answers at best. Corviknight in particular has a faster u turn, so it’s wasting its time in most cases.

the best part is that this dondozo completely throws holes into those offensive teams that can’t afford to lose momentum with toxapex and the rest of the passive walls. And even if they are used to check it, rocky helmet allows you to reliably chip away at those u turns, e speed dragonites,

about the choice of moves

Wave crash over liquidation for the 3hko on dragapult, 2hko on defensive great tusk that stays in to spin or knock off once you factor in rocky helmet damage, as well as the OHKO on valiant at +1. Visually it’s pretty cool when you see how important this is:

2HKOd if it stays in to spin or knock off

OHKO if it’s switched in on a curse, and comes in on hazards

clean 3HKO without hazards, so even HDB sets only get 3 switchin chances max. Less if it has a chipped by u turn, and specs sets can be damaged by hazards.

body press is reliable against kingambit, rotom, meowscarada, greninja, roaring moon, and miscellaneous other threats like tera grass + taunt ceruledge.

importantly, body press smashes past encore dragonite. It really can’t trade hits with you.

curse is almost never used in a high momentum game unless you’re:

1. in a position to wincon,

2. are ready to trade 2 for 1,

3. are ready to Tera to win / opponent has used Tera,

4. You need to stall out a setup sweeper enough turns to use rest,

5. you want to achieve feats like OHKOing standard iron valiant at +1 if it takes hazard damage, and a 50/50 if it doesn’t.

about the choice of


Examples of Rocky helmet forcing damage:

• cinderaces u turn so your valiant can OHKO/2HKO
• Corvi knights u turn so your offensive tusk can 2HKO
• a revenging dragonites e speed , so it loses multi scale
• Kingambit’s cleave, so you can determine if it’s leftovers or running a black glasses/lum berry
• Azumarills hits all can put it within KO range of your strong neutral hitters.

About the Tera type

there’s a few options, in this example poison is used to beat valiant if you’re sub 60%, iron moth and other miscellaneous special hitters, as well as the grass attackers in some circumstances. There’s other options that already work on other sets that will still be useful on this one.

 

[sims796]

Wait, 4? I know Skeledirge, Clodsire and Dondozo are viable in the tier but who's the fourth?

I'm guessing Quagsire.

 

[KamenOH]

Yo i think i tapped out once Terastalization was voted to stay in, did anything major happen besides Crasher Wake?

 

[Vert]

shed tail should be deleted

red card is not shed tail counter-play; depending on your red card user, your opponent can just pass to a recipient that ohko's x-red card user. 9/10 times that ends up being roaring moon, easily the most broken 'mon right now and it's solely due to shed tail. red card usage picked up weeks before the shed tail infestation started for iron valiant and iron moth. you're not using your damn red card slowking/amoonguss to stop a dd roaring moon or sd fallen:3 kingambit behind a sub. stop the cap please

also the garganacl posts are funny as fuck. y'all deadass some crack addicts who don't want balance to be viable in any capacity
seriously, how much hand-holding do you offense spammers need? i know it's a bit ironic coming from me considering how anti-garganacl i was in the past, but the walking wake result restored my faith in the community and sets the precedent for a ban much higher. any anti-garganacl players left post-walking wake test are delusional clowns, the remnants of an once based community. i'm not affiliated with them anymore LOL

personally i'm pro-tera and believe there is a lot of strategic depth to the mechanic, but having to break a substitute through a possible type change is frankly too much. overall uncompetitive garbage that should be quick-ban'd. sure is surprising to see a sub-pass 'mon have 70%+ spl & ost win-rates! it's not even just a ladder thing bro. "cheese" my ass

 

[Mega Breloom]

I find it amusing that people are asking for us to quickban Garganacl when it has never received close to enough support for that (or even enough for a clear suspect). Like do y’all want the same council you constantly complain about to abuse its power to fit your personal narrative? That ain’t it.

I think it is more like a comparation between stuff that shares traits to be considered uncompetitive but while one gets normally supported other gets ignored. Garg has counterplay but so does shed tail. Personally I think shed tail rn is overated, playing against it, seeing youtubers/streamers playing with it and against it and tournament replays with it Shed tail berely makes a difference and most of the cases when the shed tail team wins (which doesn't have a super high win rate btw) the team would have won anyway because 1 mon in particular got an amazing match up against the rival team, but in matches were the opposing rival has good answers against the shed tail abusers then the free sub is irrelevant and it is basically a 5vs6 match up since Orth is just bad, saying it can check stuff gives me the "defensive Quaq is a Pao counter, just give it a try" vibes, on paper it works but in practice doesn't, at least not consistently. That is the main point I want to adress, shed tail teams are super inconsistent but the issue isn't shed tail perse, it is about the abusers, the shed tail team with Orth wastes a slot for giving a set up sweeper one tool more to make its job easier, but again, if the opposing team has the right tools to lose to one mon/offensive core in particular then the team just falls apart, to sumarize it is a worse version of screens beacuse of the cost of running orth, however if you have good memory Cyclizar teams didn't have that issue since the ability to pass several subs gave more flexibility to the team so you could afford bringing less support and bring more attackers solving the match up issue or bringing screens for more consistency against offense.
Keeping in mind that shed tail isn't the issue (because orth is just bad) but the abusers are giving the correct match up, is worth asking, what we can do with the infamus "match up fish"? I'm confident in that banning shed tail with Orth as its only user isn't to solve anything, the teams that are losing to shed tail teams rn are going to lose to the same teams post shed tail ban with the adaptations they are going to make, because again, it is the abusers, not the free sub.
Here is when things become spicy, what is the line that determines if any pick you do for your team is fair and when is match up fishing? Yeah, some mons depend 100% on your opponent not bringing certain mons to do their job, however, all the variations that can be on a fight depending on your rival makes it hard to not go for the "man I wish I have an answer for this but I can't change anything or else I will lose to this thing so I just hope I won't find this mon" most of the picks we make in the team builder have a reasoning behind based on what we expect to fight but when especific stuff that only works for one or two popular stuff is used and that stuff doesn't appear we just made our team worse because the match up didn't favor us. That is the point that I would like to be more clear, how the "just run x on y to beat z bro" is better than "this mon is going to sweep as long they don't bring x"? You can claim that certain stuff doesn't hurt as much others on teambulding, but that is pretty subjetive since the meta is constantly evolving and your adaptations can do more damage to your team with the time (convert Gholdengo checking for two days Garg jsut to lose to the curse sets), while a sweeper can just get better with the time due meta changes out of nowhere going from a niche pick to a top threat (Bax for example).
Maybe I wrote more than I should but I'm sleepy, will try to make a better post in the morning if people ask me to be more clear of what I want to say and why I think the comparations aren't taken as seriously as they should.

 

[1LDK]

here, i'll save you the trouble and make the post for you.

behold, every reason to ban garganacl:

Alright then, time to make an actual serious post about the topic, no sarcasm, no memes, no 52 atack gunk shot pex, no of that, this is a 100% serious constructive post if this does not sell you on Garganacl, nothing will, which is okay, but I really hope you at least give this a good read

The great debate
and its place in the meta

So there is a consensus about priorities on what should be suspected, and while I do agree that shed tail should be looked first, I would like to emphasize some valuable and actual reasons on why (if there is time left) we should suspect garganacl, or at the very least not pretend that is not a problem to the metagame

​

1) Salt Cure

Salt Cure does not require presentation at this point, Salt Cure alone drops the momentum of any mons that are steel and water types, 2 of the best types of the game, which actively punishes both offensive and defensive approaches. To get near garganacl that hasn't tera, yet you need either a fighting type, a grass type or a ground type, so you can take a hit, and try to kill it. This can fail if Garga either teras, or has something like curse/iron defense, I'm gonna go deeper on that in a moment, but salt cure alone makes garga have a trait that few defensive mons have. The ability to play offense while on defense, it's one of the easiest moves to spam, it generates progress due to the amount of chip, and combined with stuff like Future Sight from slowking, or powerful wall breakers like Choice Specs Iron Valiant, makes it insanely easy to break holes, and the few actual resists are not totally safe. From the list of ground, grass and fighting types in OU, Amoongus, Breloom, Clodsire, are the only ones with some form of recovery moves that left them shrug off the move, meaning the rest will suffer through permanent damage (unless wish support) and while residual damage is nothing revolutionary, stuff like hazards, status or weather can be somewhat stop by a more variety of methods, Salt Cure literally cannot be blocked, unless of course

2) The Covert Cloak debacle

These 2 go almost together always, so I don't think it needs a presentation. While it's true that covert cloak is a superb garganacl counter by itself, since it's an item, it can be knocked off, or Tricked away, which means the Garganacl user can get himself some knock off or trick users and potentially deny this, and while way less distributed, it still attached to some of the most influential mons in the metagame, like Great Tusk, Meowscarada, Iron Valiant and Zoroark-H. While viable trick users range from Meowscarada, Rotom-W, Gholdengo, Iron Valiant, Zoroark and Greninja, meaning that, while a small pool, the garganacl user has tools to just bypass this item, and then it goes to step one again. Covert Cloak also faces from some philosophical issues about "Am I using this ONLY because of Garganacl or is it because it's a genuinely good item?". This means that you can potentially be missing a more easy to notice item like Leftovers, Rocky Helmet, HDB, etc. But wait 1LDK, there is also another way to stop Garganacl

3) Substitute Spam

What I'm going to show you right now is the list of lure sets that were present in the "Lure that Threat, week 4: Garganacl:" (GOAT Weekly contest)

Block Tera Ghost Curse
Dragon Dance Substitute [Runner-up on the votes]
Infestation Acid Spray Surf Covert Cloak
Fire Spin

Substitute [Winner of that week]
Choice Specs Hydro Pump
Covert Cloak Taunt Bulk Up
Jaw Lock Tera Ghost Covert Cloak
Covert Cloak
Tera Ghost Curse

From these nominations, Toxapex, Roaring Moon, Dondozo, Quagsire, and Ceruledge, all of them have Covert Cloak as either their primary object or as heavy suggestions, while the number 2 and the winner have Substitute. And while this was a ton of weeks ago, most of these sets still get around to this day, not only that, but they got optimized, another thing we have to consider is that Substitute spam has been a growing problem for the metagame, for enabling sweepers, of all kind, and Garganacl is one of the main reasons of why these sets are so well justified, which by logic, means that the existence of it if almost forcing these sets, all of this of course can be ruined by something else

4) Curse

Curse Garganacl is one of the most terrifying sweepers right now, and that's something considering that it's coming from a DEFENSIVE Pokémon, sub sets (unless packing covert cloak) WILL succumb to repeated curse spams, especially if combined with Earthquake and Recover, and if your running sub AND covert cloak, aren't you technically over preparing for 1 specific mon?, sure, the combination of these 2 have larger overall ramifications, but don't lie to yourself, you would rather run something else, meaning that, with curse and knock off/trick usage, your "counter play" can effectively mean nothing, and the Gargancl use doesn't lose anything really

5) The rest of the kit

As for the rest of the kit, it has super high defenses, it's immune to status, has a Ghost resistance, it has a (nerfed) but still much very present recover, and a move pool big enough to experiment, tera helps a lot, tera water and fairy are the most common by far, but I have seen tera flying, tera ghost and tera dark, the latter 2 with block to really trap and have easy set-ups and sweep chances, making it even more dangerous to even approach, its the culmination of every single factor that makes this mon what it is, and its existence shapes the metagame on ways people don't truly realize

6) What if we ban Garganacl?

Now, this is more of a theoretical standpoint so, I might be right or wrong with this

1) Walking Wake becomes even more problematic for the tier: because both check each other, one packing insane power, and the other packing salt cure, and good defenses, but depends on tera, meaning we have fewer options for this thing

2) The need of Substitute and Covert Cloak on a good portion of the meta decreases: THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY DISAPPEAR, after all, Orthworm is still a major problem which is the main abuser of sub, but these sets would decrease in favor of sets that can adapt better to the more offensive meta. Now, this is more curiosity and does not affect my arguments, but I would appreciate if somebody who plays NatDex frequently could tell us how common Covert Cloak is in this meta that not only has Garga, but Scald

3) Offense becomes a lot better: Now, this is the main reason on my eyes on why we SHOULD NOT ban garganacl, because at the end of the day, defensive play styles SHOULD BE VIABLE in any meta for it to be healthy, Garganacl, having the ability to stop cold a great amount of offensive mons, suddenly disappears, and now defensive teams are in more trouble to look for a replacement that can do as much as it does, so this is more of a potential opportunity cost, especially considering the pool of mons we have

7) Conclusion

Whether if you think that Shed Tail should be suspected first, Volcarona should be suspected first, maybe even Revival Blessing or Gholdengo, Garganacl is WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, on par with these threats, and it's currently being underestimated by a vast amount of players who just put on an item that is 99% only to stop that thing and cope by calling it "adapt". On what should be the best move right now, I think there should be another Public Survey (Finch, idk if this is your idea, but this is the best thing you have created, and you should feel proud of yourself on creating a more open and reachable council). If Garganacl ends up being the least problematic aspect by the player base, then so be it, but this thing needs more respect. I hope everybody reads this and realizes the impact this thing has.

​

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Council better unban Giratina-A straight away!

well, if you say so

we SHOULD NOT ban garganacl

well, if you say so

 

[`ShadowTwo]

I think it's high time for a new tiering survey, given the many suspect/ban requests. It should offer Garganacl, Kingambit, Volcarona and Shed Tail (Walking Wake and Gholdengo will wait for Pokemon HOME).

I personally hope this results in a Shed Tail quickban and the suspect of one of the 3 Pokemon on offer.

 

[Local Dog]

I've been eyeing Bombirdier a bit lately. Flying/Dark is a good typing, access to Memento, Parting Shot, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, Roost, Taunt, Tailwind, Knock Off and being able to have basically three STABs (yeah I know Rocky Payload doesn't work exactly like that but it's kinda like that) all seem useful. It's stats are also not that bad, bulk is passable and the 103 attack is okay

Anyone had success with the bird?

Edit: Just saw it also has Sucker Punch and the niche Scary Face and Feather Dance. That's a great movepool, not gonna lie

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I've been eyeing Bombirdier a bit lately. Flying/Dark is a good typing, access to Memento, Parting Shot, U-Turn, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, Roost, Taunt, Tailwind, Knock Off and being able to have basically three STABs (yeah I know Rocky Payload doesn't work exactly like that but it's kinda like that) all seem useful. It's stats are also not that bad, bulk is passable and the 103 attack is okay

Anyone had success with the bird?

Edit: Just saw it also has Sucker Punch and the niche Scary Face and Feather Dance. That's a great movepool, not gonna lie

Yeah, I also like that mon but unfortunately I just think it’s too slow. It’s really a shame, because if it was faster, it would work as a decent offensive pivot with Knock and U-turn/Parting Shot or a fast lead Stealth Rock setter with Taunt, like Aero in previous gens. I think that it’s pretty good in NU right now though.

 

[Cheryl.]

I’ve never seen so much support to ban a Pokémon that is so based on how much the playerbase just vehemently hates the Pokémon and how they play instead of how balanced/broken it is (Garg is pretty chill)

… well, except for Gen 8 Toxapex lol

speaking of the Pex, thoughts on the new offensive Assault Vest set that made waves in SPL? It’s a pretty neat way of using the mon that lures in a ton of would-be switchins and actually hits… not terribly considering it’s coverage. AVest + Regen also means it never dies which is fun

 

[658Greninja]

Gen 9 is either the worst competitive gen or one of the better ones with the simple fact that temp6t sets are

I’ve never seen so much support to ban a Pokémon that is so based on how much the playerbase just vehemently hates the Pokémon and how they play instead of how balanced/broken it is (Garg is pretty chill)

… well, except for Gen 8 Toxapex lol

speaking of the Pex, thoughts on the new offensive Assault Vest set that made waves in SPL? It’s a pretty neat way of using the mon that lures in a ton of would-be switchins and actually hits… not terribly considering it’s coverage. AVest + Regen also means it never dies which is fun

Gen 9 is either the worst competitive gen or one of the better ones with the simple fact that temp6t-esche sets are legit.

 

[ant4456]

okay so this is random but please bring back drypassing

complete drypassing, no boosts, no subs, fuck baton pass as intended by game freak

there are quite a few baton passers that have no other pivoting moves, and I think that would simply add more viability to more Pokemon

in particular sylveon and scream tail could use it to pivot and not be a sitting duck after taking a hit. plus this would allow them to pivot and wish pass, giving another thing to balance!

great tusk for instance can be overworked a lot in games, and kingambit otherwise really can bone balance. so being able to wishpass to tusk for example would add a lot more to balance's toolbox imo

on the subject of shed tail: ban that shit lmao, fuck outta here. i dont think a qban is in the cards, but suspect please :3

 

[KamenOH]

Jeez, if Gargle shits on the best types, maybe it should stay, since it provides a good relief against those two mongrels.
Also seriously? Volcarona, again? That thing just doesnt drop in viability ever.

 

[yestrday]

I think Sticky Web deserves more attention given the popularity of offense and hyper offense for its ability to disrupt Dragon Dancers and Booster Energy users for your own offensive threats. Masquerain is not nearly as good of a lead as, say, Glimmora, but between its solid coverage, Intimidate, Quiver Dance, and Whirlwind, it can hold its own. I also want to note an interesting dynamic between the Sticky Web speed drop and Booster Energy stat increase. Booster Energy increases a Pokémon's highest stat after considering stat changes, but sometimes it activates before Sticky Web and other times after. This difference can be game-changing. I've seen a few posts commenting on it, but I couldn't find a full list, so I decided it would be interesting to make one.

A couple notes on the list:

• The Iron Valiant shown is this standard Speed Quark Drive set.
• This was done in a [Gen 9] Custom Game to save time, so I really hope the mechanics are identical to any other [Gen 9] format.
• I skipped situations I had reason to believe would have identical results to others like Flip Turn and U-turn.
• I have no idea if this is how it works on console and I don't have the means to check for myself, so I'm just going to trust that PS! is correct here.
• Protosynthesis in Sun and Quark Drive in Electric Terrain always activate after Sticky Web.

If I made any mistakes, forgot something major, or this just isn't how Booster Energy works, please let me know.

Iron Valiant's Speed was heightened!

Chilly Reception

Parting Shot

Shed Tail

Teleport

U-turn

Volt Switch

Eject Pack

Eject Button

Hard Switch

Iron Valiant's Sp. Atk was heightened!

Explosion

Healing Wish

Whirlwind

Red Card

Circle Throw

Fainted Ally

If you're interested in using Sticky Web, here's a team I've had success with in the 1900s:

(pastebin too if pokepaste is still down)

Masquerain sets Sticky Web and threatens Hatterene with Shadow Ball. Tera Ghost blocks Rapid Spin and OHKOs Hatterene with Shadow Ball at +1. 40 Def lives Dragapult's -1 252+ Choice Band Dragon Darts and Whirlwind prevents set-up and Shed Tail. Air Balloon Kingambit checks most Taunt users that prevent Whirlwind. 40 Spe outspeeds 252+ Kingambit and Azumarill at -1 and 172 HP guaranteed lives Garchomp's 252+ Life Orb Fire Blast after Rough Skin. SpA Quark Drive Iron Jugulis wears down special walls with Taunt. Tera Ground removes its Fairy and Electric weaknesses and gives it another accurate STAB move. Dragapult is a special wallbreaker with immediate power that outspeeds Cinderace and blocks Rapid Spin. Gholdengo blocks Defog, Rapid Spin, and Mortal Spin and acts as a Baxcalibur check, letting you preserve Kingambit's Air Balloon if necessary. Iron Valiant is a special stallbreaker and extra speed control. If Sticky Web is on your side of the field and you want to guarantee a SpA or Spe Booster Energy check out the above list.

 

[Magcargo]

okay so this is random but please bring back drypassing

complete drypassing, no boosts, no subs, fuck baton pass as intended by game freak

there are quite a few baton passers that have no other pivoting moves, and I think that would simply add more viability to more Pokemon

in particular sylveon and scream tail could use it to pivot and not be a sitting duck after taking a hit. plus this would allow them to pivot and wish pass, giving another thing to balance!

great tusk for instance can be overworked a lot in games, and kingambit otherwise really can bone balance. so being able to wishpass to tusk for example would add a lot more to balance's toolbox imo

on the subject of shed tail: ban that shit lmao, fuck outta here. i dont think a qban is in the cards, but suspect please :3

Attempts have been made to nerf Baton Pass in the past & have all resulted in some broken variant emerging in its place, whether it be passing w/ Geomancy Smeargle or Scolipede or some other variant that's busted in prior generations. It is a shame since Baton Pass does add some cool strategies to the game (one of my favs was Subpassing w/ Mienshao out of bad MUs or BPing out of Ttar w/ Celebi) but ultimately, the number of complex bans or game modifications that would need to be enacted to make BP balanced to stop cheap BPers (whether it be banning setup moves + Baton Pass, sleep + Baton Pass, or making it so that Baton Pass auto-fails when behind a Sub / using a boosting move) makes it a lot easier to just ban the move despite allowing for some cool & unique strategies. I do think Drypassing is a lot less useful now than it was in, say, gen 5 because there is no Pursuit now, and if BPers aren't allowed to pass sub / boost, I rather not bring the move back since that was core to its use & identity.

 

[TCTphantom]

I’ve never seen so much support to ban a Pokémon that is so based on how much the playerbase just vehemently hates the Pokémon and how they play instead of how balanced/broken it is (Garg is pretty chill)

… well, except for Gen 8 Toxapex lol

speaking of the Pex, thoughts on the new offensive Assault Vest set that made waves in SPL? It’s a pretty neat way of using the mon that lures in a ton of would-be switchins and actually hits… not terribly considering it’s coverage. AVest + Regen also means it never dies which is fun

Honestly a lot of the ire towards Garganacl reminds me of Pex discourse too. Chip damage from Scald/Salt Cure is brainless and shifts momentum hard into the fat mons favor. It “forces” me to build around it even though it doesn’t actually. The big thing is that both mons are feelsbadmons. No one likes the fat stupid blanket check getting repeated chip on their team. No one likes losing momentum to the ugly fat mon.

Granted, unlike Pex Garg can actually sweep sometimes with its curse set. But I don’t think that this is too much of a factor right now. Honestly, I’d rather test Shed Tail, Kinggambi, or Volcarona before we revisit Garg. It’s one of the few decent stopgaps to HO plaguing the meta. Let’s not make it worse.