Would this make Heat Wave and Defog incompatible on Zapdos?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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But what's the point of keeping it? Now's an opportunity, we had months of modern comp Pokemon without getting random scald burns and it was really nice for once. It's extremely frustrating to a large amount of players and I can imagine that keeping it around in gen 9 could scare off a large swat of players
That is all hypothetical however. Maybe it won't be learnable in Home and we just misunderstood the wording
I firmly believe that Tera will be overpowered and should be suspected when HOME releases. We just got EVERYTHING back, and while some of the stuff is clearly outclassed, the metagame is still going to suffer massive bloat. Tera gives everything like 3+ sets and most of the time these sets have different counters. I believe if Tera is allowed, we will need to ban 10+ pokemon before we even reach a state of even "somewhat balanced."
We don't tier based off of "fun" because that's subjective (even if the tera suspect felt like that sometimes). We tier based off whether it makes the game more competitive, so if you are going to advocate for a scald ban, please focus on it's uncompetitiveness.
It says that they can re-learn them with Home, but we are still missing details of how that actually works.I dont know is this was talk about...
Old mons doesn't get his move back. They got reset until landing on SV.
So LandoT doesn't get Defog or KnockOff or Toxic anymore...
continue winning
Scald is utter shit and should be banned from all metagames imo.
If it returns to gen9 I'll stop playing.
yeah but they cannot use it on SV.. Same as BDSP. You can still have Defog/Toxic LandoT in gen 8 but Lando in gen 9 cannot use it.
What they say is that HOME gonna have 2 saves of the Same Pokémon: 1 older with older gen moves and 1 new for SV...
Zapdos never got Heatwave on BDSP even with HOME.
This is made to new VGC doesn't lose again older ones that have unique moveset tranks to Older games
With last respects will we have to consider whether or not Basculin is actually broken with the move? Or will people just not care and want the move banned if it means the others are free.
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
In any of the gen 8 or 9 games? So that means my assumption earlier that every pokemon that learns toxic as a transfer only move from gen 7 to 8 will lose access to that move even in gen 8 was correct. If moves that can't be leanred in gen 8 or 9 cannot be taught to the mon, how would it work? Would the move just be forgotten or something or has no details about this been said yet?
More importantly, if I understood this right, how would this impact ss ou where most of the pokemon will lose access to toxic, defog and maybe even knock off?
Sorry but this is really going thru my head and it's 1 in the morning as I'm typing this
But even if it isn't uncompetitive (which can be argued, but I don't think I know enough to make this argument), if a large enough portion of the playerbase considers it frustrating and that it makes the game worse, then maybe we should base it on that. At the end, we do play the game for fun, and competitiveness is somewhat of an objective goal we can orientate ourselves on as to make a ruleset that's the most fun for as many people as possible. So again, even if Scald may not be uncompetitive (which I honestly doubt but again, lack of knowledge), it being banned would remove a large factor of frustration and open the door for many players who felt so frustrated by this one move that they avoided modern gens of OU entirely
I can definitely see it being broken on basculin
just a few things I want to point out:
1- I think Basculegion M will be banned in a day. People will then start using Basculin White Stripes & Basculegion F instead of Basculegion M.From there, Smogon will ban Last Respects & unban Houndstone & Basculegion M.
2- I feel people underestimate Sneasler. Having 120 speed & 130 attack with swords dance, STAB CC, Dire Claw for hax, & Uburden is extremely strong. The only thing it needs to worry about is Gholdengo & ghosts in general, which Tera-Flying Acrobatics after SD is enough to deal with these “Checks.” The only reliable answer is Gholdengo, & having only one pokemon as answer can be considered “restricting.” Skeledirge might also wall Sneasler, but you must be careful of Dire Claw hax.
3- Enamorus Incarnate might be banned to ubers. Contrary Superpower+Play rough is really good coverage. You only need a ground move for mons like Skeledirge & Gholdengo, & it learns Earth Power. The only reason why I see it not being ubers is because:
A- It doesnt have a good physical movepool to abuse Contrary Superpower.
B- It has a mediocre speed for a sweeper.
However, it can run Tailwind for speed control, a mixed set, & even wish for recovery.
4- I feel like Hoodra is a bit overhyped. It has am amazing dual typing, but thats about it. I feel like its movepool is lackluster; no reliable recovery or good offensive movepool. Also, its abilities & nothing impressive that will carry it.
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Rillaboom may be getting glide back, but I think I remember that triple axel was one of the two that got cut entirely out of the dlc tutor moves, so either way weavile is kinda screwed
With gen 9 powercreep i see enamorus droping to UU. Good stats and typing but still OU is so Powercreep rn that those flaws are pretty big this gen
if this work the same as BDSP even moves from gen 8 cant be relearned. Rillaboom for instance doesnt get Glide anymore (bc of dominance on VGC).
I see Rillaboom being around UU if it truly is getting all its kit back.
I want to agree with you, but I feel like the niche it has with Contrary Superpower will keep it OU (B+/A- ranked). I can see it dropping since there are so many mons that threaten it.
The general rule I've seen with stuff like that is if you can show a move/ability breaks at least 2 mons, then you can argue banning said move/ability. If Last Respects is shown to break Hound, and both Basculegions, its a pretty easy case to ban it. I don't have an official ruling on this, and banning all the broken abusers of the move is also "legal", but w.e.
I thought it lost a lot of its kit. Losing Grassy Glide & it having mediocre typing & stats make it hard for me see it being UU.
Based on the move relearn mechanic in HOME, it should get all its Gen 8 moves again.
I thought it had to be broken by all of the mons that have that said move.
I mean it probably is broken on basculin, but I think that is where the struggle is at the moment
Nope, otherwise Baton Pass would still be legal and we'd just ban <Tremendous Number of Pokemon>. The main reason you can't eg ban Gorilla Tactics or Last Respects before now is that its impossible to isolate a move/ability from a single mon's other aspects. Darm-G may be broken by Gtactics, but equally it may be broken because its a 140 attack mon with u-turn, perfect coverage etc. Houndstone, until now, may have been broken by Last Respects, but it could also be Sand Stream, Ghost Typing, etc.
Once you have several abusers of the move, that are shown to be broken, you can start to isolate the actual move/ability in a way that you can't really do with a single mon. If Basculegion, Houndstone, and other Basculegion are all breaking the game, you can start to make the case that its the shared element between them taht's broken, not just the interaction of the element with the rest of their kit. I'm using 2, as that's really the minimum, and something that was used back in DPP with Soul Dew, but I dont' think there's an explicit ruling out there on tiering policy, and if there is I'm not aware of it.
As for proving stuff is broken on every abuser, NFEs/LCs exist, and forcing us to show that every LC mon with move/ability is broken would be sorta a fools errand, and would limit tiering policy more than it helps it.
Once you have several abusers of the move, that are shown to be broken, you can start to isolate the actual move/ability in a way that you can't really do with a single mon. If Basculegion, Houndstone, and other Basculegion are all breaking the game, you can start to make the case that its the shared element between them taht's broken, not just the interaction of the element with the rest of their kit. I'm using 2, as that's really the minimum, and something that was used back in DPP with Soul Dew, but I dont' think there's an explicit ruling out there on tiering policy, and if there is I'm not aware of it.
As for proving stuff is broken on every abuser, NFEs/LCs exist, and forcing us to show that every LC mon with move/ability is broken would be sorta a fools errand, and would limit tiering policy more than it helps it.
This is exactly it.
SV on balance feels like the sort of broken booster pack that gets introduced in response to the previous broken booster pack with no regard for the actual underlying fundamentals of the game.
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