They got super lucky with the timing of gen 8 and the bullshit lockdowns.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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They got super lucky with the timing of gen 8 and the bullshit lockdowns.
or we could pool together all the money we'd use to buy pokemon stuff, make our own studio, and start poaching their employees. they can't possibly be treating their staff well
Dang, the possibility of no transfer moves whatsoever is cruel. I just wanted my Roost Scizor back 
. I'm crossing my fingers that GF adds lots of TM moves in the DLC updates to maybe compensate for this, but the DLC is a ways away, so we'll just have to play the waiting game for now.
Lots of the returning staples will be drastically weaker if no transfer moves is indeed the case. Still, considering this affects everything, I think it will cancel out and lead to the returning Pokemon to be about as effective as before. If nothing else, I think this will let some Pokemon keep their niche in the new meta due to having tools that the older Pokemon lost. Something like Cyclizar for example still has access to Knock Off + Rapid Spin, giving it a distinct niche from Tornadus-T rather than being completely outclassed.
. I'm crossing my fingers that GF adds lots of TM moves in the DLC updates to maybe compensate for this, but the DLC is a ways away, so we'll just have to play the waiting game for now.Lots of the returning staples will be drastically weaker if no transfer moves is indeed the case. Still, considering this affects everything, I think it will cancel out and lead to the returning Pokemon to be about as effective as before. If nothing else, I think this will let some Pokemon keep their niche in the new meta due to having tools that the older Pokemon lost. Something like Cyclizar for example still has access to Knock Off + Rapid Spin, giving it a distinct niche from Tornadus-T rather than being completely outclassed.
Yeah, but they could also just like, balance the game? Make Roost a TM Scizor could learn instead of saying "you can have this, but only if you have the old games, and bothered to pay for HOME to transfer them." Make Cyclizar have options over Tornadus. It's not that hard, Gamefreak.Dang, the possibility of no transfer moves whatsoever is cruel. I just wanted my Roost Scizor back
Lots of the returning staples will be drastically weaker if no transfer moves is indeed the case. Still, considering this affects everything, I think it will cancel out and lead to the returning Pokemon to be about as effective as before. If nothing else, I think this will let some Pokemon keep their niche in the new meta due to having tools that the older Pokemon lost. Something like Cyclizar for example still has access to Knock Off + Rapid Spin, giving it a distinct niche from Tornadus-T rather than being completely outclassed.
I just want to mention an underrated aspect of Tera Ice Regieleki: Snow Weather
(Galar)Slowking Snow Teleport + Ice Regieleki
252+ Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Regieleki in Snow: 250-295 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Any neutral physical move weaker than that cannot KO.
A lot of physical moves fall under that category.
e.g.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Regieleki in Snow: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Galar)Slowking Snow Teleport + Ice Regieleki
252+ Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Regieleki in Snow: 250-295 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Any neutral physical move weaker than that cannot KO.
A lot of physical moves fall under that category.
e.g.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Ice Regieleki in Snow: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I can't tell if people genuinely think Garg is a problem or if they're just that bent on pretending Tera isn't the issue.
Dozo and Clod get destroyed by Taunt Annihilape though?
actually idk how the Dozo vs Annihilape matchup goes in practice, it's possible Annihilape can't stack enough Rage Fist boosts vs it, but Clod definitely loses to pretty much any Annihilape set
I never said they would.
I said H-Zoroark's existence turns the set that got Annihilape banned - which is taunt/sub + bulk up + STABs - into a match-up fish. That set means you're playing 5v6 against any team with H-Zoroark.
That shifts the meta.
I don't think we should unban Chi Yu or Chien Pao. I think we should re-test Annihilape only.
I'd say this would be more of an issue if we had Alolan Nintetales in. Right now, the only passable Snow setter in OU would be Galaran Slowking using Chilly Reception. Still a sick synergy, but not one that immediately rings alarm bells for me.
You don't need every team to run H-Zoro. Even 1/10 teams running H-Zoro would be enough dissuade Annihilape from running a set with only STABs.
If your win rate with Annihilape goes from 7/10 to 6/10 simply because of H-Zoro's existence, that's a huge shift and worthy of a re-test.
Lets try to avoid several consecutive posts. You can quote different people on a single post.
Hot(?) take but I'd keep every pokemon on the table for OU banned, except MAYBE zamazenta hero. Still skeptical on that one. I don't think any of them would make the tier more fun and don't have enough new checks to justify their return when we probably realize that they're still broken. Like why are chi yu and flutter mane even on the table
Here's my thoughts on the slate provided that Tera isn't banned:
Annihilape - Uber
Basculegion - Uber unless LR banned
Chi-Yu - Uber
Chien-Pao - OU
Espathra - Uber
Flutter Mane - Uber
Houndstone - Uber unless LR banned
Iron Bundle - Uber
Landorus-I - Uber
Magearna - Uber
Palafin - Uber
Regieleki - OU
Spectrier - Uber
Urshifu - Uber
Zamazenta-C - Uber
Zamazenta - Uber
Annihilape is broken even without Tera because of what it does to slower-paced teams. Chi-Yu is just broken regardless of Tera. Tera just pushed it to being obscenely broken rather than moderately so. I don't believe Magearna has any business being tested as long as it has Trick, which broke it last generation. Palafin would have no way of beating the best answers to it if not for Tera Water Wave Crash and a Tera tech to beat things like Amoonguss with Bulk Up and Taunt, but because Tera exists, it just cannot be freed. Both Zamazenta forms should not be tested before the DLCs as they are big stat sticks that will have an unhealthy effect on the meta. So basically, aside from Chien-Pao and Regieleki, I don't believe anything else should get a chance.
Annihilape - Uber
Basculegion - Uber unless LR banned
Chi-Yu - Uber
Chien-Pao - OU
Espathra - Uber
Flutter Mane - Uber
Houndstone - Uber unless LR banned
Iron Bundle - Uber
Landorus-I - Uber
Magearna - Uber
Palafin - Uber
Regieleki - OU
Spectrier - Uber
Urshifu - Uber
Zamazenta-C - Uber
Zamazenta - Uber
Annihilape is broken even without Tera because of what it does to slower-paced teams. Chi-Yu is just broken regardless of Tera. Tera just pushed it to being obscenely broken rather than moderately so. I don't believe Magearna has any business being tested as long as it has Trick, which broke it last generation. Palafin would have no way of beating the best answers to it if not for Tera Water Wave Crash and a Tera tech to beat things like Amoonguss with Bulk Up and Taunt, but because Tera exists, it just cannot be freed. Both Zamazenta forms should not be tested before the DLCs as they are big stat sticks that will have an unhealthy effect on the meta. So basically, aside from Chien-Pao and Regieleki, I don't believe anything else should get a chance.
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If your Annihilape team autoloses to Zoroark-H, that means you're bad at the game, not that Annihilape is balanced
Like, there are 5 other Pokemon on your team lol
(also, why are people acting like Zoroark-H is some kind of unkillable wall when it's really frail and doesn't switch in on stuff that easily? You realize you can just play to remove Zoroark-H, right?)
Except that's not how it works. Dracovish being made less consistent by Seismitoad last gen didn't stop it from being overbearing on the tier and that dynamic was much stronger than Ape v Zoro because Seismitoad was on a TON of teams just to not lose to Vish. Vish didn't stop running CB sets when Seismitoad was around. And Ape wouldn't stop running the standard set with ZoroH existing.
You're also ignoring how uncommon Zoro already is. There's no reason to adjust your set for a mon you're going to not a whole lot of. You just play around Zoro with the rest of Ape's team.
Basically this.
Can we get some honest discussion on Zamazenta and Zamazenta-H's status? I personally think they should stay in Ubers, but I'm curious about the general opinion of the community. Here is the suspect thread for the gen 8 discussion on unbanning them.
A few questions to consider:
Do the arguments against and for unbanning in gen 8 hold up?
Does the nerf to Dauntless Shield help a lot overall?
How does Zama benefit from their new kit in gen 9?
Edit: to summarize the gen 8 suspect thread for those who don't want to read 11 pages of 5-paragraph essays, first it was "wow this pokemon looks overwhelming with all its options but actually its checked offensively by stuff like Volc and (daddy?) Buzzwole and defensively by the 'Pex and co. and it's easily chippable and can't boost", then it goes to "it actually has coverage for everything that supposedly checks it like Wild Charge, Crunch, Play Rough, Howl, Ice Fang, and Fire Fang", then it went to "are we sure this isn't warping the meta like spectrier/dracovish where it's not broken but every team has to run lots and lots of chip damage" and then it was "wow this thing is actually hard to deal with when you give it the benefit of team support", and then finally setting on the verdict of "this thing can outlast its checks on offense in the chip war and is also decent as a wallbreaker given team support and its coverage options, keep it banned."
Edit 2: My personal opinion it will still be broken IF the metagame conditions are similar, but even if they are, I feel SV OU is already a tier of broken-checks-broken so it'd be allowed anyway.
A few questions to consider:
Do the arguments against and for unbanning in gen 8 hold up?
Does the nerf to Dauntless Shield help a lot overall?
How does Zama benefit from their new kit in gen 9?
Edit: to summarize the gen 8 suspect thread for those who don't want to read 11 pages of 5-paragraph essays, first it was "wow this pokemon looks overwhelming with all its options but actually its checked offensively by stuff like Volc and (daddy?) Buzzwole and defensively by the 'Pex and co. and it's easily chippable and can't boost", then it goes to "it actually has coverage for everything that supposedly checks it like Wild Charge, Crunch, Play Rough, Howl, Ice Fang, and Fire Fang", then it went to "are we sure this isn't warping the meta like spectrier/dracovish where it's not broken but every team has to run lots and lots of chip damage" and then it was "wow this thing is actually hard to deal with when you give it the benefit of team support", and then finally setting on the verdict of "this thing can outlast its checks on offense in the chip war and is also decent as a wallbreaker given team support and its coverage options, keep it banned."
Edit 2: My personal opinion it will still be broken IF the metagame conditions are similar, but even if they are, I feel SV OU is already a tier of broken-checks-broken so it'd be allowed anyway.
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I mean my person opinion is that its access to Salt Cure is the primary issue. It's a pretty degenerate move. Its pure Rock typing is hardly debilitating when paired with 100/130/90 defenses. I don't think anyone is pretending it's not the issue, more just acknowledging that Nacl is problematic regardless.
Pokémon company takes the criticism that they don’t delay anything by delaying what should have been literally the easiest update by like 4 month lmao, what a joke. How anybody can trust them after they consecutively released SwSh, BDSP, and SV is beyond me. Legends arceus has been the only halfway decent game they’ve released since the original sun and moon, holy hell
Zamazenta-Hero I don’t think will be too much of a problem, just good. 120 attack with mono-STAB and only Howl to boost it is only “ok”, and no secondary STAB holds it back a lot compared to a lot of other offensive fighting types, especially because it doesn’t have a single good coverage option higher than 90 base power, most being 85-80. Yes it can run ID Body Press, but you compromise pretty much all strength in your coverage in favor of a strong Body Press coupled with insane physical bulk, which can make it a good wincon but nothing exceptional; it lacks recovery outside of RestTalk, and if you run that you literally can’t touch ghosts and struggle massively with fighting resists in general. Zam-H just has low defensive utility in general too; high natural bulk yes, but mono-fighting doesn’t offer much in terms of relevant resistances beyond Rock and Dark, so it’s gonna struggle a lot with passive damage and being worn down by multiple strong hits over the course of the game. It was much scarier back when it had 10 more base attack and a consistent +1 defense on switchin, but now it’s gonna struggle to punch the holes it wants even with a band and can’t come in as many times as it would like anymore. Compared to other options like Sneasler and Urshifu, you trade 10 base attack, strong secondary STABs, coverage, pivoting, priority (in Urshifu’s case), status spreading (in Sneasler’s case), AND better setup potential all for raw bulk without recovery and a better natural speed tier, which doesn’t seem like enough of an upgrade to be particularly scary.
Zamazenta-Crowned on the other hand… I’m a lot less sure about. Last generation I think most agreed it would have been solidly the worse of the two in an OU context, but I think the roles have flipped this time around. Zam-C does still trade off the ability to run items like Band or Leftovers and loses 10 base speed, but with the addition of Body Press this gen, those 140 defenses and actual defensive utility start to become noticeably more scary. ID Body Press doesn’t scare me too much on Zam-H, but Zam-C has way more switch-in opportunities, Toxic immunity, the ability to absorb Knock Off without fear of losing its item, and an outright stronger Body Press on top of all that, taking what seems like kind of a shaky if admittedly potent wincon and turning it into something seemingly way more consistent. I would personally rather have Hero come down by itself and then have Crowned tested later than have both hit the tier at the same time, but that’s just my personal take.
I fully blame ilca for not getting home out in a timely manner, considering how they did with bdsp, its entirely on them this time around since they are the ones responsible for getting out home in a timely manner. UGHHHHH WHY ILCA I JUST WANNA USE HISUIANS.
Like I swear ilca has been so incompetent with the pokemon ip ever since bdsp.
Like I swear ilca has been so incompetent with the pokemon ip ever since bdsp.
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Garg is the sum of its parts. A 100/130/90 defense rock mon is balanced. A non-defensive pokemon with Salt Cure is balanced. Tera is, um.... theoretically balanced? The issue is when you combine all of them. I agree that banning Tera would make Garg more balanced, but people seem distinctly pro-Tera in the community, so we've taken the option of "ban all the busted Tera abusers until the metagame is only slightly broken checks broken." That's why I advocate for Garg ban, though Tera ban would be welcome and would cause me to stop advocating for the former.
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