Quagsire has never been a good answer to Magearna with its garbage special bulk.
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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Quagsire has never been a good answer to Magearna with its garbage special bulk.
252 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And now we wait for the vote on the Zamazentas… Crowned was already a controversial topic last generation and it’s received a really good buff in Body Press, albeit with some stat cuts. Regular can also IDPress now and also suffered a stat nerf, but has Speed only slightly below Dragapult and still boasts a very strong Close Combat to boot. also Dauntless Shield… exists this gen, I guess?
Whatever the result of the vote is on these two, it’ll probably be as controversial as the Magearna vote, so I’m excited. let the damn dogs out
Whatever the result of the vote is on these two, it’ll probably be as controversial as the Magearna vote, so I’m excited. let the damn dogs out
Very excited for the first OU box legends since Kyu-B gens 5-7. Crowned is worse in some aspects, it's much more passive than Choice sets and adds more common weaknesses like Ground, Fighting and Fire. Bulkier Zam sets would probably prefer vest or leftovers to stack bulk on both sides or get the passive healing it so desperately needs.
There's a lot of pokemon unmentioned due to being unworthy of early Ubers consideration. All Hisuians, Zapdos, Heatran, G.Moltres, Lando-T, Thundurus, Tornadus, and more
I think its obvious why you don't wanna let Iron Bundle and Flutter Mane back into ou ausma. AND THANK YOU FOR VOTING BAN ON BOTH BUNDLE AND FLUTTER MANE, I never wanna see those two in OU ever again, even if I love using them both.
Explanations on them and single strike?
I doubt it because it’s no known SV update with home, but I really wish we’d get Darkrai and skymin, I think they’d both be OU this Gen.
As far as the Pokémon we do know we have. I’m generally pretty happy with the bans and unbans we’ve been getting. I would of preferred a more liberal unbanning, but the mons I thought where worth bringing back likely would of been quick banned anyway so how disappointed can I be.
I also what do you guys think are slept on offensive and defensive threats coming in home.
I think Cres and Alolan muk are going way to under the radar on the defensive end. While I believe mew and H-lilligant are offensive threats teams just aren’t gonna be prepared for.
As far as the Pokémon we do know we have. I’m generally pretty happy with the bans and unbans we’ve been getting. I would of preferred a more liberal unbanning, but the mons I thought where worth bringing back likely would of been quick banned anyway so how disappointed can I be.
I also what do you guys think are slept on offensive and defensive threats coming in home.
I think Cres and Alolan muk are going way to under the radar on the defensive end. While I believe mew and H-lilligant are offensive threats teams just aren’t gonna be prepared for.
Suicune erasure
I don’t think either belong in OU. Please no one dislike my post for saying this, but I feel that 120 Attack and 138 Speed, plus hitting nine types super effectively with the unresisted Close Combat + Ice Fang. Slap on Crunch to murder ghosts and an instant +1 Defense the first time you hit the field, you’ve got a Mon that is getting banned. I don’t think it will be banned on Day 1, but if this is the case then a quick ban will come right around the corner.
Also, R.I.P. Ferrothorn, the man who could understand :(
On the side of crowned I agree, but there is a lot more going against zamazenta-hero. Pure fighting is a pretty mediocre stab and defensive typing, and ice fang is not necessarily a very powerful coverage move even with tera. Iron defense + body press sets I see being great though.
No logical or objective argument can convince me for letting Zamazenta in OU.
It's a cover, main legendary. You want Miraidon in OU? You want Solgaleo in OU? Xerneas, Yveltal? "But Black Kyurem" sh*t up. Zamazenta is a monster.
92 HP /115 Def / 115 SpDef
130 Atk/138 Speed
Are you nuts. Are you literally a bunch of salty, tasty Kirkland Signature Pack of Mixed Nuts from Costco???!?!?
Because that's what you look like to me if you want Zamazenta in OU
It's a cover, main legendary. You want Miraidon in OU? You want Solgaleo in OU? Xerneas, Yveltal? "But Black Kyurem" sh*t up. Zamazenta is a monster.
92 HP /115 Def / 115 SpDef
130 Atk/138 Speed
Are you nuts. Are you literally a bunch of salty, tasty Kirkland Signature Pack of Mixed Nuts from Costco???!?!?
Because that's what you look like to me if you want Zamazenta in OU
Mag also gets energy ball which was used back on gen 7 against gastro. That is the main deal with Magearna, has a big movepool so can beat all its checks given the right set without having to use tera, can use to make things easier of course, but it won't even need it most of the time.
Now coming back to the talk about Ursaluna, I believe that bulk up Ursa is being overlooked, while SD gives the power to break walls quickly, Bulk up can make it harder to revenge kill and potentially force more KO's.
I'd let Solgaleo in OU rn tbh I won't lie. Bricked by bulky waters to hell.
On a real note, imo "cover legendary" isn't an argument to ban so ething. Cover legendaries have been in OU before. They are usually auto banned because they are assumed nuts, but if a Pokémon has a genuine shake at OU, it deserves a shot at being tested. Cover Legendary is an arbitrary term in regards to tiering.
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While I don't have much to add in terms of theorymonning and discussing tiering for various previous OU/Ubers titans, I'm glad to see the aggressive motions on various things coming in.
I am not ready for the metagame to be unleashed and see crap like Lando-T everywhere. Well, depending upon what becomes popular... Blech, and I was enjoying playing my Cyclizar/Gardevoir team.
I am not ready for the metagame to be unleashed and see crap like Lando-T everywhere. Well, depending upon what becomes popular... Blech, and I was enjoying playing my Cyclizar/Gardevoir team.
just remembered clodsire exists lol
252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 84-99 (18.1 - 21.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
yeah clod would be holding the OU tier together like how quag was holding gen 8 ubers together in the zacian era
Looks like Clodsire really is the regional variant of Quagsire
Not coded in the game yet so most likely it won't retun with the Home update.
Do y’all think Ursaluna could fill that bulky offensive role left by the absence of Melmetal? Sets such as protect + leftovers or other stuff that melm ran.
I’m anxiously waiting for this Home Update, the bans/unbans are followed what I would’ve done.
I’m anxiously waiting for this Home Update, the bans/unbans are followed what I would’ve done.
Opinion on Zam
First Regular Zam: CB, irondefense bp all very good, but could be potentially hard checked by Curse Dozo or just play around
Personally think that it should NOT be banned: CB is hard to force out but can be play around with immunities (or fit a dozo on ur team), BPress are more difficult to handle by offense but handled pretty easily by dirge and dozo
Zam-C: Better with the bpress moveset but not having an item (leftovers) was notable, it was also hard walled by skeledirge and dozo no matter how it adapts, and lack of reliable recovery gives leeway for offensive teams. You can't really go unboosted either since its too easily worned. Just like Regular Zam, I do NOT think it should be banned.
Personally Thinks that regular Zam is more broken than Crowned (only in terms of brokenness which I don't think they were)
First Regular Zam: CB, irondefense bp all very good, but could be potentially hard checked by Curse Dozo or just play around
Personally think that it should NOT be banned: CB is hard to force out but can be play around with immunities (or fit a dozo on ur team), BPress are more difficult to handle by offense but handled pretty easily by dirge and dozo
Zam-C: Better with the bpress moveset but not having an item (leftovers) was notable, it was also hard walled by skeledirge and dozo no matter how it adapts, and lack of reliable recovery gives leeway for offensive teams. You can't really go unboosted either since its too easily worned. Just like Regular Zam, I do NOT think it should be banned.
Personally Thinks that regular Zam is more broken than Crowned (only in terms of brokenness which I don't think they were)
It has 120 Atk now and Dauntless Shield has been nerfed so it only gives you +1 Def once a battle.
And honestly I don't think it'd been even that good early with its Fighting type competition in Great Tusk, Iron Valiant, Sneasler, and Urshifu-R.
Zama can be troublesome in OU if it ended up being released. Take a loot at National Dex OU, where more powerful mons exist and IronPress Zama is still a bulky and hard to check set. Even without Tera, you need certain checks like Zapdos to deal with it. And when it tera into steel/electric and manage to leave one substitute, dude, you're basically fucked.
NatDex OU isn’t a one-to-one comparison with regular OU but they suspected Zamazenta and decided not to ban it and afaik it hasn’t really been complained about since.
It’s still good obviously but nothing oppressive. People have been testing out the theoretical post-bank OU too and honestly Zamazenta hasn’t seemed that crazy there either. It just doesn’t exert as much offensive pressure as you’d like no matter what the set and has longevity issues.
Haven't played any post-home games yet, but looking at them, the only thing that could potentially make Zama(H) overwhelming is that speed. Offensively it's comparable to Valiant except it gets weaker/slightly more limited coverage (can't really go mixed to wallbreak either), and while those defenses seem good, it gets worn down fairly quickly with a one time Defense boost and no recoveryNatDex OU isn’t a one-to-one comparison with regular OU but they suspected Zamazenta and decided not to ban it and afaik it hasn’t really been complained about since.
People are acting like Zamazenta is fine because it can be checked. Yeah sure it can be checked, even without the nerf last gen it was possible to check Zamazenta-C. The problem with both Zamazenta (Zamazenta-C especially) is that they completely invalidates every physical attacking Pokemon the moment they enter the field. It doesn't even matter that the defense boost is only a one time thing, against offensive teams and especially HO it's all you need to completely K.O half or more of your opponents team. To me both Zamazenta to HO are what Annihilape is to Stall teams. Depending on the match up they are not going to seem broken but they make certain playstyle or Pokemon that are good otherwise completely useless.
People saying "cover legendary does not mean banworthy" are lying to themselves. The only time it happened in the past was because Kyurem and Kyurem-B had a terrible typing, no physically offensive ice stab, no DD, and a Stealth Rock weakness. With an Ice/Dragon typing, a slow Speed stat, only decent abilities and all the problems listed above of course they were fine. Necrozma is the only exception but it has only 600 BST, a terrible typing, weird stat distribution and only a decent movepool/Ability.
That's not the case for either Zamazenta. You are looking at what would be the 3rd fastest Pokemon on the metagame so revenge killing it with something faster is out of the question unless you are Dragapult or Speed boosting Iron Valiant. On top of that Zamazenta has an effective 130 Att stat and its movepool is decent enough to hit everything it wants to hit. But on top of being fast and hitting hard you are facing a Pokemon with 325 HP and 266 in both defenses (and I'm only talking about the basic Zamazenta, the bulk is even more ridiculous for the C form) uninvested and without adding the 1.5 boost from the ability.
Now add Tera on top of that and what can offense do without losing half of their team or even the game straight up ?
I don't know how anyone could think that a Pokemon like this is fine just because it doesn't do TOO well against particular playstyles.
At this point if you are going to allow stupid Pokemon just because they suck in Uber and/or can't hold an item you might as well make Arceus-bug OU.
I could see an argument being made for Darkrai, Deoxys-S or even Shaymin-S (it would still be stupid but hey some people think running Covert Cloak just for one mon is fine) but Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C are ridiculous.
In my opinion, unbanning Uber Pokemon should be something we do if they add something to the metagame, don't completely warp it around themselves and don't render certain playstyles or top tier Pokemon completely useless.
I would rather deal with Zygarde, Kyurem or Solgaleo than the Zamazenta duo.
People saying "cover legendary does not mean banworthy" are lying to themselves. The only time it happened in the past was because Kyurem and Kyurem-B had a terrible typing, no physically offensive ice stab, no DD, and a Stealth Rock weakness. With an Ice/Dragon typing, a slow Speed stat, only decent abilities and all the problems listed above of course they were fine. Necrozma is the only exception but it has only 600 BST, a terrible typing, weird stat distribution and only a decent movepool/Ability.
That's not the case for either Zamazenta. You are looking at what would be the 3rd fastest Pokemon on the metagame so revenge killing it with something faster is out of the question unless you are Dragapult or Speed boosting Iron Valiant. On top of that Zamazenta has an effective 130 Att stat and its movepool is decent enough to hit everything it wants to hit. But on top of being fast and hitting hard you are facing a Pokemon with 325 HP and 266 in both defenses (and I'm only talking about the basic Zamazenta, the bulk is even more ridiculous for the C form) uninvested and without adding the 1.5 boost from the ability.
Now add Tera on top of that and what can offense do without losing half of their team or even the game straight up ?
I don't know how anyone could think that a Pokemon like this is fine just because it doesn't do TOO well against particular playstyles.
At this point if you are going to allow stupid Pokemon just because they suck in Uber and/or can't hold an item you might as well make Arceus-bug OU.
I could see an argument being made for Darkrai, Deoxys-S or even Shaymin-S (it would still be stupid but hey some people think running Covert Cloak just for one mon is fine) but Zamazenta and Zamazenta-C are ridiculous.
In my opinion, unbanning Uber Pokemon should be something we do if they add something to the metagame, don't completely warp it around themselves and don't render certain playstyles or top tier Pokemon completely useless.
I would rather deal with Zygarde, Kyurem or Solgaleo than the Zamazenta duo.
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