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Resource SV OU Post-HOME Viability Ranking Thread [ Final Update: Post #280 ]

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:kleavor: -> UR or D

At first glance, Stone Axe looks amazing. A move that sets up Stealth Rock without being blocked by Taunt and Magic Bounce. However, Kleavor has many flaws that prevent it from effectively setting up hazards or denying hazards from opposing leads.

Kleavors typing is downright awful offensively and defensively, weakness to Stealth Rock with only resistances to normal and poison and awful bulk means that it doesn't defensively check any major threats. Kleavor also has poor speed and no priority, and is OHKOd by strong neutral hits such as timid specs pult draco meteor. Kleavors stab is resisted by many pokemon, most notably Great Tusk which eats even tera flying tera blast if defensive and denies hazards from Kleavor effortlessly. Gholdengo also gives Kleavor trouble and prevents it from making any progress. This means in most games Kleavor exists solely as a mediocre suicide lead that gets up rocks, gets it's rocks spun away by tusk and either wastes tera or faints.

Heavy Duty Boots spam teams also destroy Kleavor teams, as unlike other hazard setters such as Samurott, Tusk, Ting Lu, Lando, Glimmora, Garganacl ect. which can still provide defensive and or offensive utility if hazards aren't useful, Kleavor does nothing vs teams that spam boots making Kleavor nothing more than a sac.
 
:kleavor: -> UR or D

At first glance, Stone Axe looks amazing. A move that sets up Stealth Rock without being blocked by Taunt and Magic Bounce. However, Kleavor has many flaws that prevent it from effectively setting up hazards or denying hazards from opposing leads.

Kleavors typing is downright awful offensively and defensively, weakness to Stealth Rock with only resistances to normal and poison and awful bulk means that it doesn't defensively check any major threats. Kleavor also has poor speed and no priority, and is OHKOd by strong neutral hits such as timid specs pult draco meteor. Kleavors stab is resisted by many pokemon, most notably Great Tusk which eats even tera flying tera blast if defensive and denies hazards from Kleavor effortlessly. Gholdengo also gives Kleavor trouble and prevents it from making any progress. This means in most games Kleavor exists solely as a mediocre suicide lead that gets up rocks, gets it's rocks spun away by tusk and either wastes tera or faints.

Heavy Duty Boots spam teams also destroy Kleavor teams, as unlike other hazard setters such as Samurott, Tusk, Ting Lu, Lando, Glimmora, Garganacl ect. which can still provide defensive and or offensive utility if hazards aren't useful, Kleavor does nothing vs teams that spam boots making Kleavor nothing more than a sac.
Honestly, D is kinda fitting for it. Samurott-Hisui also has knock off which allows it to really mess up mons that lead with boots or pokemon that switch into it, kleavor has none of that, with a shitty typing and shallow movepool to boot. Granted, stone axe is a neat move, but kleavor has so many problems that hold it back in an OU environment
 
Honestly, D is kinda fitting for it. Samurott-Hisui also has knock off which allows it to really mess up mons that lead with boots or pokemon that switch into it, kleavor has none of that, with a shitty typing and shallow movepool to boot. Granted, stone axe is a neat move, but kleavor has so many problems that hold it back in an OU environment
Yea I don't see much reason for using Kleavor and I would honestly say it deserves to be unranked, it has less niche utility than Pincurchin, Maushold, or Floatzel in my eyes. Pretty much all the viable manual rocks setters in the tier have far more utility (Tusk's hazard removal/Knock Off and ability to 1v1 gambit without Tera, Lando's defensive typing/Intimidate/pivoting ability, Garg and Ting-Lu having amazing defenses, Glimmora being a decent suicide lead even if tspikes are worse than preHome) that having a move that makes a little bit more progress is not really worth using. Its defensive typing and speed stat make it a liability and it lacks the other things that make Hamurott viable (Ceasless Edge being inherently more spammable than Stone Axe, Knock Off being able to punish the HDB users necessitated by its Spiking ability, priority in Aqua Jet that can be useful for picking off weakened threats)
 
I would bet 1000$ that Terapagos Ogerpon Okidogi Munkidori Fezandipiti will break their respective tiers.

Not trying to act like a mod and I know you're new, but this isn't the place for that. Speculation about Pokemon we know next to nothing about isn't suited for this thread, much less this forum, and it's impossible to talk about Pokemon who currently are not usable in the game atm let alone released.

The DLC is still months away from now and speculation isn't for this thread, this is for discussion of viability of currently available Pokemon in the current metagame.
 
i dont think there's a reason to shut down conversation like that. whats the harm in thinking about what sort of new mons could be healthy for the metagame? knowing what we lack (a bulky grass type (ogrepon?!?!)) can help u identify whats too strong, whats too underrepresented, and what potential metagame forces could help with the current metagame issues.

IDK about you, but I read the title as "SV OU Post-HOME Viability Ranking Thread", and none of the DLC Pokemon are OU yet (don't worry, I checked!).

It's already difficult reading through 8 pages of posts a day (80% of which are absolute shit) and trying to find the meaningful, meta-related posts. Having people discuss Pokemon that are months away from release just adds more garbage to this landfill.

Like how the hell are you "identifying what's too strong" if you don't even know Type, stat distribution, movepool, etc.? If you wanna just theorymon, go here. Stop defending clearly bad or irrelevant posts.
 
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1689146565155.png UR -> C/C+

Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish / Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed / Iron Defense (/ Seed Bomb / Giga Drain)
- Body Press
- Spikes

Chesnaught matches up very well against Samurott-Hisui (especially SD variants which can never hope to do anything while chesnaught is still healthy), Great Tusk (especially defensive variants), Kingambit and Landorus-T, four very prominent mons in the meta right now and can set up spikes against them very freely and pester switch ins with leech seed. Running Iron Defense ensures beating any physical set up mon 1v1 while leech seed gives you more overall longevity, but both are good options. Overall a very solid blanket physical check, although you will need to expend your tera to beat Roaring Moon and Sneasler due to your 4x weakness to acro. Bulletproof is very useful as this gives you essentially another specs pult switchin if you make the correct predict. Pairs up very well with dengo as they cover eachother's weaknesses defensively (except for fire) and work well to keep hazards up without needing to run a suicide lead. Another notable trait it has as a spike setter over SamuH is that Great Tusk cannot force it out. Even if they spin your hazards away, you can just set them back up while the tusk racks rocky helmet damage. A pretty solid pick imo, should be at least C if not more especially considering how well it does vs some of the most popular current mons.

I haven't added replays as I consider chesnaught to not be an unknown mon that needs explaining (it was a good niche pick in a lot of previous gens) but I'll add them once I get home if deemed necessary.

Other noms I agree with:
1689147708858.png
A- -> A This shit is impossible to switch into without WAbsorb Clod / AV Pex. Excellent speed tier + the possibility of it being either sub/agi or just dracoing on the switch makes this very hard to deal with without specific counters. Even non-AV Glowking will fold to a spatk booster/specs variant. It also has reasonable bulk and ok defensive typing, meaning its not that easy to revenge kill from full.

1689147775986.png
A+ -> S-/S Zapdos is just excellent right now. It destroys tusk and defensive variants are very good into kingambit as well. Because the most commonly ran ground type in the tier is also weak to Hurricane, it's very risky to try and stop it from volting. This just generates an absurd amount of momentum and chip over the course of a game and doesn't care about hazards at all because nothing that could knock its brand new Jordans off wants to stay in on it, ever. It's natural bulk + access to roost means it can often afford to take a strong hit in exchange for momentum then come back in later on something that hates it (TUSK) and force a 50/50 where u could switch but they roost it all off again, resetting the momentum machine back to 0 or just lose ur tusk to hurricane. Even gholdengo has to be wary of the rare heat wave variant.

1689148571610.png
A -> A+ S- For this one Ima go ahead and up the proposed nom even higher. This is a top 5 mon in the tier imo. It's primarily utility in setting up spikes while hitting decently hard all in the same turn is already incredible by itself, but what pushes it into S territory imo is how not one dimensional this mon is compared to it's counterpart Mr. "Stone Axe" Kleavor. Ceaseless edge is far from its only tool; it's double typing + access to sacred sword means it's actually very hard to switch into a ceaseless edge as the two most prominent dark resists in the tier (tusk and gambit) can get ohkoed very easily. This also means this can hinder gambit sweep attempts if you keep it reasonably healthy as it naturally resists both of its stabs and can always hit it hard with aqua cutter/razor shell no matter what it attempts to tera into. It also has access to 2 very good priority moves in sucker and aqua jet that allow it to assume the role of a late game sweeper with swords dance despite its mediocre speed. The only reliable answers to this thing are the tier's two resident grass/fighting mons chesnaught and deciH, which aren't mons you can easily slot on any team (arguably Chesnaught is a lot more splashable than Deci-H, but it's grass typing still brings about a lot of weaknesses that have to be accounted for in teambuilding).
 
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1689157004700.png
A- to A+
Under Sun, Specs+Proto boost does too much damage. 700+ SpA off the bat is ridiculous with a 109 speed tier. 1-2hkos just about everything in OU bar Azu, Unaware Clod, Pex and AV Gloking. Great defensive typing and is not super frail.

1689157313261.png
B+ to A-
The mixed set is one of the most reliable stall breakers in the tier - Taunt, KO, Psychic and Focus Blast/Drain Punch. Hoopa U can often make the opp guess early on and you can bait Steele types, as well as annoy stall teams. Does have trouble with Corv (who is meh anyway) but can annoy it with taunt/KO on switch in.
 
980.png
C+--> A

I don't know how this thing ended up in C+ ranking but I think it gotta be the wrongest placement I have ever seen (sorry for the invented english but there are no existing words that are able to describe this case).

reasoning:

-Great defensive cores: Clodsire is without a doubt one of the best special walls in gen 9. 130 HP and 100 Spdef is insanely bulky and pairing that with ground/poison with immunity to water is just great. Together with dondozo/corviknight it can create seriously amazing defensive cores that almost feel unbreakable.

-learns all hazars: this is actually great thing for clod spammability. The fact it can learn stealth rock, spikes and toxic spikes make it incredibly easy to fit in any team depending on the needs. This is ofter overlooked but I belive no pokémon has this kind of versatility in the hazards department. I am currently using a team with toxic spikes clod and I am finding alot of success (about top 100 ladder placement) and usually i'm a trash player.

-Benefits from recent meta change: there is a notable change that, in my opinion, make clodsire even better in the current meta. First of all Hisuain samurot is everywhere, meaning that hatreene usage is much, much lower than before since its main role is to block hazards. Hatreene was obviously a problem for clod that could just throw in an eq that was immediately recovered with lefties + draining kiss. Now this counter usage is lower, making clod much better and free to set up hazards or click toxic.

before I see this argument:

199-g.png
!=
980.png


I think that the introduction of G king is not at all a problem for clod. Those two mons for sure share things in common that are relevant: both poison types that are specially defensive. With that being said their typing is still very different. Clod is immune to water, electric and neutral to dark. Those differences are huge. G king is mainly used for pivotting while clod for pure walling and setting hazards. I still think G king all things considered is better than clod (thus in A+ while clod in A imo) but it is no way a subsitute of clod. I don't think that there is a strong substitue mechanic between the two since the roles are different.

-Clodsire does well against the strongest newly introduced mons: last but not least I think that clod actually deals well with alot of the strongest new mons introduced:

145.png
,
199-g.png
,
903.png
,
889.png
,
721.png
,
905.png



beware, i'm not saying that clod necessarily wins the 1v1 against all the above mentioned mons regardless of the sets, for sure it annoys all of them pretty well. Sub calm mind enam destroys clod but clod for sure annoys the soul out of the specs enam set. Some are just walled and lose the 1v1 to clod such as Zap, Volcanion and G king.

these are just the new mons, clod still steals gholdengo's gold and makes walking wake walk away to UU. What I am trying to say is that closire has alot of good/great matchups in the meta against the most relevant mons.

In short Clod is simply an amazing mons that I belive fits very well in the meta. My empirical evidence is that I've reached 1900 rating with clod and generally I am a terrible player. I know this is not statistically relevant but if clod, supposedly a C+ rank mon, takes a player like me to top 100 ladder there is something wrong for real.

Jokes aside I think to have acquired enoguh experience to say that clod does pretty well in this meta and C+ is just too low of a ranking. It does much better than mons in the same ranking and also the ones above. I mean seriously clodsire is worse than Tornadus therian, greninja, enam therian??? I think it is much, much better than those. and again this mon is not only generally strong but also super spammable as it is essentially a glue that can create good defensive cores with alot of partner mons.
 
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980.png
C+--> A

I don't know how this thing ended up in C+ ranking but I think it gotta be the wrongest placement I have ever seen (sorry for the invented english but there are no existing words that are able to describe this case).

reasoning:

-Great defensive cores: Clodsire is without a doubt one of the best special walls in gen 9. 130 HP and 100 Spdef is insanely bulky and pairing that with ground/poison with immunity to water is just great. Together with dondozo/corviknight it can create seriously amazing defensive cores that almost feel unbreakable.

-learns all hazars: this is actually great thing for clod spammability. The fact it can learn stealth rock, spikes and toxic spikes make it incredibly easy to fit in any team depending on the needs. This is ofter overlooked but I belive no pokémon has this kind of versatility in the hazards department. I am currently using a team with toxic spikes clod and I am finding alot of success (about top 100 ladder placement) and usually i'm a trash player.

-Benefits from recent meta change: there is a notable change that, in my opinion, make clodsire even better in the current meta. First of all Hisuain samurot is everywhere, meaning that hatreene usage is much, much lower than before since its main role is to block hazards. Hatreene was obviously a problem for clod that could just throw in an eq that was immediately recovered with lefties + draining kiss. Now this counter usage is lower, making clod much better and free to set up hazards or click toxic.

before I see this argument:

199-g.png
!=
980.png


I think that the introduction of G king is not at all a problem for clod. Those two mons for sure share things in common that are relevant: both poison types that are specially defensive. With that being said their typing is still very different. Clod is immune to water, electric and neutral to dark. Those differences are huge. G king is mainly used for pivotting while clod for pure walling and setting hazards. I still think G king all things considered is better than clod (thus in A+ while clod in A imo) but it is no way a subsitute of clod. I don't think that there is a strong substitue mechanic between the two since the roles are different.

-Clodsire does well against the strongest newly introduced mons: last but not least I think that clod actually deals well with alot of the strongest new mons introduced:

145.png
,
199-g.png
,
903.png
,
889.png
,
721.png
,
905.png



beware, i'm not saying that clod necessarily wins the 1v1 against all the above mentioned mons regardless of the sets, for sure it annoys all of them pretty well. Sub calm mind enam destroys clod but clod for sure annoys the soul out of the specs enam set. Some are just walled and lose the 1v1 to clod such as Zap, Volcanion and G king.

these are just the new mons, clod still steals gholdengo's gold and makes walking wake walk away to UU. What I am trying to say is that closire has alot of good/great matchups in the meta against the most relevant mons.

In short Clod is simply an amazing mons that I belive fits very well in the meta. My empirical evidence is that I've reached 1900 rating with clod and generally I am a terrible player. I know this is not statistically relevant but if clod, supposedly a C+ rank mon, takes a player like me to top 100 ladder there is something wrong for real.

Jokes aside I think to have acquired enoguh experience to say that clod does pretty well in this meta and C+ is just too low of a ranking. It does much better than mons in the same ranking and also the ones above. I mean seriously clodsire is worse than Tornadus therian, greninja, enam therian??? I think it is much, much better than those. and again this mon is not only generally strong but also super spammable as it is essentially a glue that can create good defensive cores with alot of partner mons.
And you're speaking solely on Water Absorb Clod, right? What are your opinions on Unaware?
 
And you're speaking solely on Water Absorb Clod, right? What are your opinions on Unaware?
unaware can of course be used in stall, furthermore I think that it could do well it the current meta considering how low the usage of both rain and sun (with WW) is compared to pre home meta. I talked about absorb clod because I have more experience with it, but unaware absolutely has its own merits and I think it could be explored even if I think abosrb is still the better one overall.
 
I haven't added replays as I consider chesnaught to not be an unknown mon that needs explaining (it was a good niche pick in a lot of previous gens) but I'll add them once I get home if deemed necessary.

here are some replays, as promised earlier (keep in mind it's a mostly support/defensive mon, so it doesn't really "shine" beyond doing its job):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1899820009-pt5i8zxz0hj331e8mp4ye6933lq3sy4pw - Chesnaught trades spikes with SamuH while also essentially killing it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1899001056-lbm10u6hg4xkiznzrfz7r0p85gp49hapw - Free vs meow, allowing me to set up a spike
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898974357-utffmdju9scsm5w5133mmgptypj9jeepw - Completely countered the AV pex thanks to bulletproof (funnily enough i expected it to have sludge bomb over acid spray, but turns out acid spray is also a bullet attack)

Tbh all these replays could also be used to nom Dudunsparce, which put in good work in all of these, but I feel y'all may not be ready yet for that...
 
980.png
C+--> A

I don't know how this thing ended up in C+ ranking but I think it gotta be the wrongest placement I have ever seen (sorry for the invented english but there are no existing words that are able to describe this case).

reasoning:

-Great defensive cores: Clodsire is without a doubt one of the best special walls in gen 9. 130 HP and 100 Spdef is insanely bulky and pairing that with ground/poison with immunity to water is just great. Together with dondozo/corviknight it can create seriously amazing defensive cores that almost feel unbreakable.

-learns all hazars: this is actually great thing for clod spammability. The fact it can learn stealth rock, spikes and toxic spikes make it incredibly easy to fit in any team depending on the needs. This is ofter overlooked but I belive no pokémon has this kind of versatility in the hazards department. I am currently using a team with toxic spikes clod and I am finding alot of success (about top 100 ladder placement) and usually i'm a trash player.

-Benefits from recent meta change: there is a notable change that, in my opinion, make clodsire even better in the current meta. First of all Hisuain samurot is everywhere, meaning that hatreene usage is much, much lower than before since its main role is to block hazards. Hatreene was obviously a problem for clod that could just throw in an eq that was immediately recovered with lefties + draining kiss. Now this counter usage is lower, making clod much better and free to set up hazards or click toxic.

before I see this argument:

199-g.png
!=
980.png


I think that the introduction of G king is not at all a problem for clod. Those two mons for sure share things in common that are relevant: both poison types that are specially defensive. With that being said their typing is still very different. Clod is immune to water, electric and neutral to dark. Those differences are huge. G king is mainly used for pivotting while clod for pure walling and setting hazards. I still think G king all things considered is better than clod (thus in A+ while clod in A imo) but it is no way a subsitute of clod. I don't think that there is a strong substitue mechanic between the two since the roles are different.

-Clodsire does well against the strongest newly introduced mons: last but not least I think that clod actually deals well with alot of the strongest new mons introduced:

145.png
,
199-g.png
,
903.png
,
889.png
,
721.png
,
905.png



beware, i'm not saying that clod necessarily wins the 1v1 against all the above mentioned mons regardless of the sets, for sure it annoys all of them pretty well. Sub calm mind enam destroys clod but clod for sure annoys the soul out of the specs enam set. Some are just walled and lose the 1v1 to clod such as Zap, Volcanion and G king.

these are just the new mons, clod still steals gholdengo's gold and makes walking wake walk away to UU. What I am trying to say is that closire has alot of good/great matchups in the meta against the most relevant mons.

In short Clod is simply an amazing mons that I belive fits very well in the meta. My empirical evidence is that I've reached 1900 rating with clod and generally I am a terrible player. I know this is not statistically relevant but if clod, supposedly a C+ rank mon, takes a player like me to top 100 ladder there is something wrong for real.

Jokes aside I think to have acquired enoguh experience to say that clod does pretty well in this meta and C+ is just too low of a ranking. It does much better than mons in the same ranking and also the ones above. I mean seriously clodsire is worse than Tornadus therian, greninja, enam therian??? I think it is much, much better than those. and again this mon is not only generally strong but also super spammable as it is essentially a glue that can create good defensive cores with alot of partner mons.

Clod isn't super spammable though. It's good on stall, and there are some balance teams that like what it offers, but a lot of the role compression it provided in past metagame just isn't necessary anymore. The early bans also took away multiple pokemon Clod was good into which further limits it. There are better hazard setters that offer more to team building in this meta, and the many strong grounds in the tier really punish Clod for how passive it is. Clod really has to rely on toxic as a distinguishing point and not all that many teams need that.

Clod is still viable, but much more specific than it used to be and is a lot more flawed and exploitable than before. You could maybe argue a rank of B- is more fair, but there hasn't been anything (not that I know of anyway) that happened to show Clod deserves a large rise, especially not all the way to A.
 
here are some replays, as promised earlier (keep in mind it's a mostly support/defensive mon, so it doesn't really "shine" beyond doing its job):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1899820009-pt5i8zxz0hj331e8mp4ye6933lq3sy4pw - Chesnaught trades spikes with SamuH while also essentially killing it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1899001056-lbm10u6hg4xkiznzrfz7r0p85gp49hapw - Free vs meow, allowing me to set up a spike
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898974357-utffmdju9scsm5w5133mmgptypj9jeepw - Completely countered the AV pex thanks to bulletproof (funnily enough i expected it to have sludge bomb over acid spray, but turns out acid spray is also a bullet attack)

Tbh all these replays could also be used to nom Dudunsparce, which put in good work in all of these, but I feel y'all may not be ready yet for that...

Morkal-like typing detected.

So this isn't a one liner, I am actually surprised at Dudunsparce doing real work. What's your opinion on him in general?
 
Honestly, with the current metagame Heatran just feels like completely unusable, not even A tier... without Balloon or immediate Tera, the only mons above it in the rankings that it beats is like no U-turn Dragapult, and like D-Nite without EQ or Gholdengo without Trick or Cover Cloak. Still, its role has turned into just a worse version of Zapdos, relying on contact to trigger that status, but now it can't put pressure on, except Magma Storm chip/Rocks... EQ and Earth Power are basically everywhere, and everything that doesn't have them regularly, always runs a pivot move, making the standard Heatran style, pretty much dead. I think its gonna fall a lot as the tier adapts to the new mons more, unless some crazy new set is found, and it comes back, in a similar way to the offensive AV Toxapex that rose up pre-home.
I see moving it down to at least B as reasonable, as if you lose to nearly every mon, S through A, you don't belong in that tier.
 
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here are some replays, as promised earlier (keep in mind it's a mostly support/defensive mon, so it doesn't really "shine" beyond doing its job):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1899820009-pt5i8zxz0hj331e8mp4ye6933lq3sy4pw - Chesnaught trades spikes with SamuH while also essentially killing it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1899001056-lbm10u6hg4xkiznzrfz7r0p85gp49hapw - Free vs meow, allowing me to set up a spike
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898974357-utffmdju9scsm5w5133mmgptypj9jeepw - Completely countered the AV pex thanks to bulletproof (funnily enough i expected it to have sludge bomb over acid spray, but turns out acid spray is also a bullet attack)

Tbh all these replays could also be used to nom Dudunsparce, which put in good work in all of these, but I feel y'all may not be ready yet for that...
Re: :dudunsparce: you running rattled or serene grace (for shadow ball)? And how do you feel about throat spray on it?
 
Morkal-like typing detected.

So this isn't a one liner, I am actually surprised at Dudunsparce doing real work. What's your opinion on him in general?

Dudunsparce is very underexplored imo. Great bulk and decent offensive stats when combined with a gargantuan movepool (and serene grace) means it can effectively fill a lot of roles. I haven't gotten around to playing it TOO seriously yet (the replays show him on quite a peculiar team) but I'll try to make a nom later. In the meantime, here's a paste of potential sets (but really, your imagination is the limit):

https://pokepast.es/0a639c762f834a9d Even thought it doesn't appear on any of these sets, earthquake or earthpower is also a good option to hit tran.

here's a replay that features a coil variant on a test account versus uhh... another creation of mine lol: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898206029-63oyl4wh49ihcd0ld26y3xcku1l85rzpw

Re: :dudunsparce: you running rattled or serene grace (for shadow ball)? And how do you feel about throat spray on it?

Rattled isn't very useful because it depends on your opponent doing something to work, in general serene grace is better (even though on this set it only helps for spdef drops vs ghost types). I haven't tried throat spray yet, but it sounds heat !
 
Honestly, with the current metagame Heatran just feels like completely unusable, not even A tier... without Balloon or immediate Tera, the only mons above it in the rankings that it beats is like no U-turn Dragapult, and like D-Nite without EQ or Gholdengo without Trick or Cover Cloak. Still, its role has turned into just a worse version of Zapdos, relying on contact to trigger that status, but now it can't put pressure on, except Magma Storm chip/Rocks... EQ and Earth Power are basically everywhere, and everything that doesn't have them regularly, always runs a pivot move, making the standard Heatran style, pretty much dead. I think its gonna fall a lot as the tier adapts to the new mons more, unless some crazy new set is found, and it comes back, in a similar way to the offensive AV Toxapex that rose up pre-home.
I see moving it down to at least B as reasonable, as if you lose to nearly every mon, S through A, you don't belong in that tier.

While Tran might warrant a drop, I do think B tier is a bit harsh. Tran’s role in the meta is less of a defensive presence and more of an offensive one. Despite the loss of Toxic and Eruption, it still makes tremendous progress against would-be walls such as Garg and Glowking with Magma Storm and Taunt. Opening the door for mons like Enam, Valiant, Pult, and Zama to break lose. It also sets up rocks quite nicely since the main spinner of the tier doesn’t want anything to do with Magma Storm or the occasional Lava Plume/Wisp.

Despite the meta being less kind to its defensive presence, Tran still checks the ghosts nicely like it did last gen, it has gotten easier for it since Ghold has been running more Tbolt over Sball or Focus Miss lately to snipe Samu, Molt, and Tera Water Garg. It is also a Ghost check not fucked over by wisp unlike another ghost resist who’s name shall not be spoken of, and isn’t reliant on Tera to beat the other prominent ghost like Garg. Flame Body sets also have defensive merit in this physically oriented metagame, especially for checking the one who’s name shall not be uttered.

I do see people potentially innovating with Tran in the future. Perhaps a Balloon Tran set with Flash Cannon to give BO teams an option to rkill Bax and Enam while being a more immediate threat to Pult.

252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Baxcalibur: 326-386 (87.8 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Enamorus: 344-408 (119 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 181-214 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Something like this maybe

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fairy/Flying
EVs: 116 HP / 252 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Flash Cannon
- Stealth Rock/Earth Power
- Taunt/Stealth Rock
 
Dudunsparce is very underexplored imo. Great bulk and decent offensive stats when combined with a gargantuan movepool (and serene grace) means it can effectively fill a lot of roles. I haven't gotten around to playing it TOO seriously yet (the replays show him on quite a peculiar team) but I'll try to make a nom later. In the meantime, here's a paste of potential sets (but really, your imagination is the limit):

https://pokepast.es/0a639c762f834a9d Even thought it doesn't appear on any of these sets, earthquake or earthpower is also a good option to hit tran.

here's a replay that features a coil variant on a test account versus uhh... another creation of mine lol: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1898206029-63oyl4wh49ihcd0ld26y3xcku1l85rzpw



Rattled isn't very useful because it depends on your opponent doing something to work, in general serene grace is better (even though on this set it only helps for spdef drops vs ghost types). I haven't tried throat spray yet, but it sounds heat !
Dragon Tail seems like the most natural 4th move on a coil set to me tbh

Nice sets and nice work against your frankenstein’s monster lol
 
View attachment 533937 UR -> C/C+

Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish / Bold Nature
- Synthesis
- Leech Seed / Iron Defense (/ Seed Bomb / Giga Drain)
- Body Press
- Spikes

Chesnaught matches up very well against Samurott-Hisui (especially SD variants which can never hope to do anything while chesnaught is still healthy), Great Tusk (especially defensive variants), Kingambit and Landorus-T, four very prominent mons in the meta right now and can set up spikes against them very freely and pester switch ins with leech seed. Running Iron Defense ensures beating any physical set up mon 1v1 while leech seed gives you more overall longevity, but both are good options. Overall a very solid blanket physical check, although you will need to expend your tera to beat Roaring Moon and Sneasler due to your 4x weakness to acro. Bulletproof is very useful as this gives you essentially another specs pult switchin if you make the correct predict. Pairs up very well with dengo as they cover eachother's weaknesses defensively (except for fire) and work well to keep hazards up without needing to run a suicide lead. Another notable trait it has as a spike setter over SamuH is that Great Tusk cannot force it out. Even if they spin your hazards away, you can just set them back up while the tusk racks rocky helmet damage. A pretty solid pick imo, should be at least C if not more especially considering how well it does vs some of the most popular current mons.

I haven't added replays as I consider chesnaught to not be an unknown mon that needs explaining (it was a good niche pick in a lot of previous gens) but I'll add them once I get home if deemed necessary.

Other noms I agree with:
View attachment 533938A- -> A This shit is impossible to switch into without WAbsorb Clod / AV Pex. Excellent speed tier + the possibility of it being either sub/agi or just dracoing on the switch makes this very hard to deal with without specific counters. Even non-AV Glowking will fold to a spatk booster/specs variant. It also has reasonable bulk and ok defensive typing, meaning its not that easy to revenge kill from full.

View attachment 533939A+ -> S-/S Zapdos is just excellent right now. It destroys tusk and defensive variants are very good into kingambit as well. Because the most commonly ran ground type in the tier is also weak to Hurricane, it's very risky to try and stop it from volting. This just generates an absurd amount of momentum and chip over the course of a game and doesn't care about hazards at all because nothing that could knock its brand new Jordans off wants to stay in on it, ever. It's natural bulk + access to roost means it can often afford to take a strong hit in exchange for momentum then come back in later on something that hates it (TUSK) and force a 50/50 where u could switch but they roost it all off again, resetting the momentum machine back to 0 or just lose ur tusk to hurricane. Even gholdengo has to be wary of the rare heat wave variant.

View attachment 533940A -> A+ S- For this one Ima go ahead and up the proposed nom even higher. This is a top 5 mon in the tier imo. It's primarily utility in setting up spikes while hitting decently hard all in the same turn is already incredible by itself, but what pushes it into S territory imo is how not one dimensional this mon is compared to it's counterpart Mr. "Stone Axe" Kleavor. Ceaseless edge is far from its only tool; it's double typing + access to sacred sword means it's actually very hard to switch into a ceaseless edge as the two most prominent dark resists in the tier (tusk and gambit) can get ohkoed very easily. This also means this can hinder gambit sweep attempts if you keep it reasonably healthy as it naturally resists both of its stabs and can always hit it hard with aqua cutter/razor shell no matter what it attempts to tera into. It also has access to 2 very good priority moves in sucker and aqua jet that allow it to assume the role of a late game sweeper with swords dance despite its mediocre speed. The only reliable answers to this thing are the tier's two resident grass/fighting mons chesnaught and deciH, which aren't mons you can easily slot on any team (arguably Chesnaught is a lot more splashable than Deci-H, but it's grass typing still brings about a lot of weaknesses that have to be accounted for in teambuilding).


I wanna thank you so much for the Chesnaught recommendation! Also, shout-out to whomever in this forum who mentioned U-Turn into Rocky Helmet as an effective way of stopping Samurott. Saved me so many headaches
 
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Slowking-G should be S (or S- if you want to make that tier with Valiant). Incredible glue mon and the safest means of pivoting with Chilly Reception. Checks Zama, Sneasler, bullshit Iron Valiant and Enamorus (doesn't beat all variants and placement matters, but you can say that about any mon vs Valiant/Enam). Chilly Reception also fucks over weather teams and allows it to safely pivot around Garganacl with Regen, both of which I've seen a lot lately. It's tough to fit every move it wants on a set (Future Sight/Psyshock, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Flamethrower, Slack Off, Chilly Reception, etc.), but it puts in work pretty much every game and is easily one of the best mons in the tier rn.

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Sneasler: A to A- It's not all that deadly honestly. For the Band set, it really doesn't like being locked into any one of its moves, which have a really awkward type combination. It has switchins, and being choice-locked leaves it vulnerable. Amoonguss, Pex, Gholdengo, Tusk, Glowking and Lando being as common as they are doesn't help its case. As for the SD Unburden set, 1) I think players should have figured out by now that it's a stupid idea to pop its Balloon. And running Grassy Seed means slotting in shitty ass Rillaboom. Go into Glowking, safely bring in Dragapult and one shot it or something. 2) Frail so its vulnerable to priority, and it can't break through the Unaware mons at all, 3) somewhat too reliant on Tera to get the job done.

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Heatran: A- to B+ Magma Storm chip is nice. But I don't like the fact that it has to Tera to trap a lot of its targets (Not to mention Tera Grass leaves it vulnerable to things that its supposed to check).
 
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Slowking-G should be S (or S- if you want to make that tier with Valiant). Incredible glue mon and the safest means of pivoting with Chilly Reception. Checks Zama, Sneasler, bullshit Iron Valiant and Enamorus (doesn't beat all variants and placement matters, but you can say that about any mon vs Valiant/Enam). Chilly Reception also fucks over weather teams and allows it to safely pivot around Garganacl with Regen, both of which I've seen a lot lately. It's tough to fit every move it wants on a set (Future Sight/Psyshock, Sludge Bomb, Toxic, Flamethrower, Slack Off, Chilly Reception, etc.), but it puts in work pretty much every game and is easily one of the best mons in the tier rn.

903.png
Sneasler: A to A- It's not all that deadly honestly. For the Band set, it really doesn't like being locked into any one of its moves, which have a really awkward type combination. It has switchins, and being choice-locked leaves it vulnerable. Amoonguss, Pex, Gholdengo, Tusk, Glowking and Lando being as common as they are doesn't help its case. As for the SD Unburden set, 1) I think players should have figured out by now that it's a stupid idea to pop its Balloon. And running Grassy Seed means slotting in shitty ass Rillaboom. Go into Glowking, safely bring in Dragapult and one shot it or something. 2) Frail so its vulnerable to priority, and it can't break through the Unaware mons at all, 3) somewhat too reliant on Tera to get the job done.

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Heatran: A- to B+ Magma Storm chip is nice. But I don't like the fact that it has to Tera to trap a lot of its targets (Not to mention Tera Grass leaves it vulnerable to things that its supposed to check).
What about scarf my dog. Revenges and poisons stuff. Fits pretty well with stuff that can stay alive.
 
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