SV UU Suspect Process Round 10 - Pop Goes the Weasel

[Lily]

​

Hey y'all, it's time for yet another suspect test!

Weavile dropped to the tier a couple of weeks ago and has been a bit controversial since then. It's no secret that Weavile is very, very threatening; a nasty STAB combo with incredible utility in both Knock Off and Ice Shard, as well as the ever-powerful Triple Axel makes it a major threat to consider in the builder. This would be great on its own, but it's supported by Weavile's ludicrous Speed stat that puts it above every unboosted viable Pokemon save for maybe Talonflame, eclipsing staples like Greninja and Tornadus-T that were already considered to be incredibly fast. Because of this, Weavile has started to cause major problems for previously great team structures, with its ability to mow down common physical checks like Hydrapple, Slowking and Skeledirge without much effort. On top of this, Weavile can wear down just about any dedicated check with Knock Off and some entry hazard support - not the hardest thing to accomplish given our new influx of Spikes users, although most of them don't pair too well with it. To cap all of this off, Weavile is deceptively bulky; not only is its natural SpDef stat fairly decent, but its typing offers it a fair few resistances, and when taking advantage of the fairly common Snow set by Slowking's Chilly Reception its physical bulk is actually quite impressive as well, giving it a chance to survive strong super effective hits like Lokix's First Impression and Excadrill's Iron Head. While it's not a prime hit taker by any means, it's not always easy to KO it in one turn.

With that said, Weavile has issues, and major ones at that. The bulk is fine but not stellar; if Snow isn't up, expect any strong super effective hit to KO Weavile on the spot. It's also not super difficult to fit useable defensive checks on teams; Flame Body Heatran, Cobalion, Quaquaval, Tinkaton, Okidogi and Scizor, while certainly not ironclad, are roadblocks for the weasel and give teams a solid amount of outplay room against it. It's also slower than and majorly threatened by just about every form of Speed control, whether that's Choice Scarf Hoopa-U, Okidogi, Lokix's First Impression, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Sand Rush Excadrill, or Gardevoir. Creating setup opportunities for Swords Dance Weavile isn't super easy; while it does majorly threaten foes like Hydrapple and Slowking, they can often Tera in front of it and cripple it (or just tank an unboosted hit in Slowking's case), and its typing doesn't afford it too many opportunities to punish Choice locks - even Hoopa-U's Hyperspace Fury does enormous damage to Weavile, guaranteeing a 2HKO. Tera trades are also a common way to deal with Weavile, which is more punishing on it than most Pokemon since it can't usually afford to tank a hit in return; there are few Pokemon in the tier that can't threaten Weavile in some way, so it's paramount to pick your battles with it. Weavile can also be considered more "fair" than the likes of Hoopa-U or Okidogi, since there is often a punishment for clicking the wrong move, and even if you get it right sometimes Triple Axel's accuracy lets you down anyway.

So make your choice! Should Weavile stay in UU and bring its wonderful Speed-centric talents, or is it too much to handle?

---


The voting requirements are a minimum COIL of 2850 using a B value of 6. A table outlining the number of required games played will be outlined below.

The test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU10WI (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU10WI Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

The test will end on Sunday, October 27th at 7PM GMT -4. A Blind Voting thread will be posted around this time. You can see instructions to verify your requirements in this thread!

Minimum Game Requirements

Games Played	GXE
24	85
25	84
27	83
30	82
33	81
36	80
40	79
45	78
54	77
64	76
80	75
109	74
171	73
392	72

 

[Azulblade]

Whats coil?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

The voting requirements are a minimum COIL of 2850 using a B value of 6. A table outlining the number of required games played will be outlined below.

There is a table? Is this a call for avalugg to be spammed? Does coil mean a future where dudunsparce is ranked?

Either way..... weavile is broken. Weavile is a fast asf weasel and there are many things in the tier that can beat it on paper... but you kinda get shit on the second you look deeper into it

How is weavile broken? for smth like 4 attacks you have checks like phys def rotom-w, skarm, bulky flame body heatran (if you get lucky), pex, tink but even those mons have there cons as like hetaran losing lefties sucks, if its not pickpocket tink then losing lefties makes u a worse answer esp against anything else and sucks. Late game this set cleans, there isnt really many mons faster than weavile and even some scarfers like latios, lonely scarf hoopa, dogi, ogerpon-teal can get picked off by ice shard cuz they are frail or they also are used for their defensive utility


"What about SD?" Well if you dont expect SD then you may definitely be fried esp if you are using smth like rotom-w execting to be knocked and taking minimal dmg afterwards to staring down a +2 weavile... "but what about mons like bulky heatran, coba, skarm" well they are able to lose to a decent amount of shit esp if you slot low kick... coba is tasked with so much throughout the game that you may just be able ot wear it down into +2 triple axel range easily

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 150-177 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 201-237 (62.2 - 73.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Rotom-Wash: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

How does it get past the counterplay?
Lily mentioned forms of counterplay like Flame Body Heatran, Cobalion, Quaquaval, Tinkaton, Okidogi and Scizor. I think while these can counter weavile these are shaky often times and not smth u want to use

Out of these lets gooo with prob the most reliable ones

- Coba and tink, i talked about coba and tink previously but not only is coba tasked with a lot, getting a triple axel onto coba is not fun for it and a knock -> low kick does a lot to it even on 4 attack sets while SD sets can easily put it into range. Tera ice also is able to apply a ton of pressure against them. This means they are less reliable than one would think, especially as the game progresses and how weavile is often able to come in and force mons out thanks to its offense and speed

252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 102-121 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- approx. 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 200-236 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Tinkaton: 126-150 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- approx. 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- Next is scarf okidogi, BU Dogi, and quaquaval. BU okidogi def doesnt want anywhere near a triple axel, scarf dogi can revenge kill a weavile but also... lets look at the bigger picture, how often is okidogi at full health? okidogi is 1. vulnurable to spikes as well which means putting it into ice range isnt impossible because a. okidogi cant switch into weavile well at all if its scarfed, and if it switches in on an axel then its likely to be put into ice shard range quickly. Quaquaval is exclusive to HO but even then it takes a number... if it tries to hard switch in on a t axel then it likely can lose esp if tera ice is popped, on HO quaq is unlikely to really be able to do much esp if weavile calls out a SD with t axel again to put it into ice shrd range

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 167-199 (47 - 56%) -- approx. 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 113-134 (36.3 - 43%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- Scizor is really only good at switch ing into axel (it has to be boots otherwise that is a shit ton of chip on banded zor) but eh... its not that reliable

". It's also slower than and majorly threatened by just about every form of Speed control, whether that's Choice Scarf Hoopa-U, Okidogi, Lokix's First Impression, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Sand Rush Excadrill, or Gardevoir. "

- Scarf Hoopa

I think that is not really true... sure scarf hoopa u threatens it but ice shard also does a number and you also have to not be worn down by hazards considering hoopa loves pivoting in and out of battle so its likely at some point weavile can really pick it off with ice shard. SD also is able to pick it off from pretty high health.

252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

- Lokix FI

Sure... but lokix cant switch into it to save its life... and lokix kinda isnt going ot have fun against the coba, mence, flame body tran, dogi, skarm, pickpocket tink in the tier

- Sand Rush Drill..

Most sand teams really rely on smth like rotom-w to check weavile... this can really become a problem cuz smth like weavile can really just bully it anyway and it forces in ttar and a pivot to drill during that time period which can be rough to get away with and you are unlikely to get away with it without weav getting good amounts of value
----------------------------------------
BAN PLS

 

[BolTingBlazie]

There is a table? Is this a call for avalugg to be spammed? Does coil mean a future where dudunsparce is ranked?

Either way..... weavile is broken. Weavile is a fast asf weasel and there are many things in the tier that can beat it on paper... but you kinda get shit on the second you look deeper into it

How is weavile broken? for smth like 4 attacks you have checks like phys def rotom-w, skarm, bulky flame body heatran (if you get lucky), pex, tink but even those mons have there cons as like hetaran losing lefties sucks, if its not pickpocket tink then losing lefties makes u a worse answer esp against anything else and sucks. Late game this set cleans, there isnt really many mons faster than weavile and even some scarfers like latios, lonely scarf hoopa, dogi, ogerpon-teal can get picked off by ice shard cuz they are frail or they also are used for their defensive utility


"What about SD?" Well if you dont expect SD then you may definitely be fried esp if you are using smth like rotom-w execting to be knocked and taking minimal dmg afterwards to staring down a +2 weavile... "but what about mons like bulky heatran, coba, skarm" well they are able to lose to a decent amount of shit esp if you slot low kick... coba is tasked with so much throughout the game that you may just be able ot wear it down into +2 triple axel range easily

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 150-177 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 201-237 (62.2 - 73.3%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Rotom-Wash: 220-261 (72.3 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

How does it get past the counterplay?
Lily mentioned forms of counterplay like Flame Body Heatran, Cobalion, Quaquaval, Tinkaton, Okidogi and Scizor. I think while these can counter weavile these are shaky often times and not smth u want to use

Out of these lets gooo with prob the most reliable ones

- Coba and tink, i talked about coba and tink previously but not only is coba tasked with a lot, getting a triple axel onto coba is not fun for it and a knock -> low kick does a lot to it even on 4 attack sets while SD sets can easily put it into range. Tera ice also is able to apply a ton of pressure against them. This means they are less reliable than one would think, especially as the game progresses and how weavile is often able to come in and force mons out thanks to its offense and speed

252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 102-121 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- approx. 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 200-236 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Tinkaton: 126-150 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- approx. 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- Next is scarf okidogi, BU Dogi, and quaquaval. BU okidogi def doesnt want anywhere near a triple axel, scarf dogi can revenge kill a weavile but also... lets look at the bigger picture, how often is okidogi at full health? okidogi is 1. vulnurable to spikes as well which means putting it into ice range isnt impossible because a. okidogi cant switch into weavile well at all if its scarfed, and if it switches in on an axel then its likely to be put into ice shard range quickly. Quaquaval is exclusive to HO but even then it takes a number... if it tries to hard switch in on a t axel then it likely can lose esp if tera ice is popped, on HO quaq is unlikely to really be able to do much esp if weavile calls out a SD with t axel again to put it into ice shrd range

252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 167-199 (47 - 56%) -- approx. 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 113-134 (36.3 - 43%) -- approx. 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- Scizor is really only good at switch ing into axel (it has to be boots otherwise that is a shit ton of chip on banded zor) but eh... its not that reliable

". It's also slower than and majorly threatened by just about every form of Speed control, whether that's Choice Scarf Hoopa-U, Okidogi, Lokix's First Impression, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Sand Rush Excadrill, or Gardevoir. "

- Scarf Hoopa

I think that is not really true... sure scarf hoopa u threatens it but ice shard also does a number and you also have to not be worn down by hazards considering hoopa loves pivoting in and out of battle so its likely at some point weavile can really pick it off with ice shard. SD also is able to pick it off from pretty high health.

252 Atk Tera Ice Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

- Lokix FI

Sure... but lokix cant switch into it to save its life... and lokix kinda isnt going ot have fun against the coba, mence, flame body tran, dogi, skarm, pickpocket tink in the tier

- Sand Rush Drill..

Most sand teams really rely on smth like rotom-w to check weavile... this can really become a problem cuz smth like weavile can really just bully it anyway and it forces in ttar and a pivot to drill during that time period which can be rough to get away with and you are unlikely to get away with it without weav getting good amounts of value
----------------------------------------
BAN PLS

Zero switchins moment

Like my problem with weavile is that you really can't reliably switch anything into it at all when you throw tera into the mix, and even without that most things cannot come in safely anyway. I think that this is clearly problematic and weavile should probably go off of that basis alone because switch ins really just don't exist, and the one that does (Heatran) gets wrecked by tera.

 

[Tree69420]

There is a table? Is this a call for avalugg to be spammed? Does coil mean a future where dudunsparce is ranked?

my goats

 

[Colin]

I'm leaning that Weavile is broken but I'm not sure. as a breaker to switch into, its really good but not broken to me. however, its really fast and amplifies the already potent dark spam structures that can overwhelm its best switch ins such as Chople Berry Cobalion and Tinkaton, as well as most of its bulky checks. Its fast enough that most teams need a choice scarf or very strong priority to revenge KO it. Its also excellent at using tera to push past many answers as it tries to sweep, but it is in no way reliant on it to make progress. it ranges from solid to amazing vs hyper offense depending on its set, and vs everything else it gets many opportunities to click thanks to its speed tier. Its not as blatantly unfair as Iron Boulder was, but any otherwise strong breaker that happens to outspeed Tornadus-Therian becomes meta defining. Knock Off + spikes is really good, but I agree with the op that most of the spikers don't have great synergy with Weavile, since they cannot by themselves give Weavile opportunities to click.

 

[Catcus]

Heavy agree with HydreigontheChild here. is pretty broken. It's checks ranged from kinda niche mons like and to mons that aren't niche but are inconsistent at checking it like or . This gets worse considering that A. knock means you make progress no matter what, and
B. weav has ways of abusing almost all of it's checks anyways.

The only counterplay I'd say is somewhat consistent is
1. - can revenge kill it pretty well. However, this doesn't stop weavile from just slowly claiming kills
2. -resists stabs and can go for a classic quaquaval sweep. While I don't think it's exclusive to HO, it's kinda hard to fit outside of that and can't really switch-in a ton
3. can tank the hits and force it out, but doesn't appreciate knock and can eventually be overwhelmed.

overall, feels like too much. It's super threatening, It's checks are inconsistent, and just does not feel good for the tier. Overall, Please ban.

 

[gulch]

hi, wanna talk about weavile, i think this suspect is kinda odd considering some of the other forces present rn and especially because i really don't think weavile is broken at all. knock does make it a very strong progress maker and any breaker faster than torn in this meta is going to be good by default, but i think people are very much overexaggerating how difficult it is to check.


current rising star and the single absolute best check to weavile available. resists all of its moves, kills it with ease, and can take advantage of forcing it out pretty easily to boot. getting knocked does suck but you're still threatening post-specs and still do your job of checking the weasel extremely well, they just can not SD if you're present because they're only one vacuum wave away from getting owned.


grouping these four together because they all generally do the same thing, defensively are extremely annoying for weavile to deal with and can kill it in return with ease. tinkaton and cobalion are rather prone to getting overwhelmed but are still incredibly consistent in what they aim to do (eat hits and then harass the weasel or kill it outright). quaquaval has loosely the same defensive matchup as keldeo but trades some consistency in dealing with weavile in return for threatening to snowball. dogi can check weavile in a multitude of ways, either just buffering through the hit and killing back or revenge killing it with scarf.


reliable revenge killers that hurt weavile very badly.


resists ice, doesn't really give a fuck about knock unless spikes are up (spikers are hard to fit with weavile anyway), has haze to stop SD shenanigans from getting too out of hand, toxic is overall a Pretty Bad Time for weavile. taking advantage of it for being passive isn't really an option since without boosts you're doing zero.


not really as much of checks as the above for a multitude of reasons but can all act as stopgaps and generally give weavile a hard time.

i think we're also vastly underestimating how difficult it can be for weavile to get an SD off and get actual value from it without eating shit and dying. in matchups where multiple checks are present there are several turns where clicking knock off is genuinely the only option available, and while this isn't a terrible situation, you are still making good progress, you're also not really unlocking the power you need to break through things without significant chip beforehand. most things that are neutral to your moves, more specifically your ice STAB, don't really give a shit about the damage you're doing until you hit +2. even things like slowking and sinistcha that are weak to knock can take an unboosted hit just fine. your bulk is also pretty bad and any stray hits put you at a much greater risk, especially when you're weak to u-turn and the three most common types of priority in the tier. the lack of room to experiment with moveslots is also pretty tough, you'd love to be able to afford something like low kick for steels or protect for lokix but it ends up not being very doable since your core four (knock, axel, shard, SD) is hard to justify changing. also jokes about accuracy aside, axel does have a tendency to botch the job at times and leave you in VERY awkward situations, especially since that third hit is the one you really want.

i think all in all weavile is just a very strong breaker that's good at making progress and that's good and fine and healthy actually. please let him live!

 

[Lizzie]

dogi can check weavile in a multitude of ways, either just buffering through the hit and killing back or revenge killing it with scarf.

+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 329-391 (92.6 - 110.1%) -- approx. 62.5% chance to OHKO. This is not a check unless its scarf.

Not gonna go too in depth here but weavile basically can break through all of its defensive checks so if your team doesnt have an offensive check (strong priority or a scarfer pretty much) then weaviles threat level is just too high, the pressure it puts on when teams are relying only on defensive counterplay is just unhealthy. Its defensive checks are either not very good at checking weavile or not very good in general for the most part. Tera blast electric is also dumb.

Weav isnt the most broken thing ive ever seen but probably ban it thx besties.

 

[udongirl]

In a metagame where it is extremely difficult to avoid chip damage, there is no arguing how a mon that is fast and doesn't lock into one move is broken.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

hi, wanna talk about weavile, i think this suspect is kinda odd considering some of the other forces present rn and especially because i really don't think weavile is broken at all. knock does make it a very strong progress maker and any breaker faster than torn in this meta is going to be good by default, but i think people are very much overexaggerating how difficult it is to check.


current rising star and the single absolute best check to weavile available. resists all of its moves, kills it with ease, and can take advantage of forcing it out pretty easily to boot. getting knocked does suck but you're still threatening post-specs and still do your job of checking the weasel extremely well, they just can not SD if you're present because they're only one vacuum wave away from getting owned.


grouping these four together because they all generally do the same thing, defensively are extremely annoying for weavile to deal with and can kill it in return with ease. tinkaton and cobalion are rather prone to getting overwhelmed but are still incredibly consistent in what they aim to do (eat hits and then harass the weasel or kill it outright). quaquaval has loosely the same defensive matchup as keldeo but trades some consistency in dealing with weavile in return for threatening to snowball. dogi can check weavile in a multitude of ways, either just buffering through the hit and killing back or revenge killing it with scarf.


reliable revenge killers that hurt weavile very badly.


resists ice, doesn't really give a fuck about knock unless spikes are up (spikers are hard to fit with weavile anyway), has haze to stop SD shenanigans from getting too out of hand, toxic is overall a Pretty Bad Time for weavile. taking advantage of it for being passive isn't really an option since without boosts you're doing zero.


not really as much of checks as the above for a multitude of reasons but can all act as stopgaps and generally give weavile a hard time.

i think we're also vastly underestimating how difficult it can be for weavile to get an SD off and get actual value from it without eating shit and dying. in matchups where multiple checks are present there are several turns where clicking knock off is genuinely the only option available, and while this isn't a terrible situation, you are still making good progress, you're also not really unlocking the power you need to break through things without significant chip beforehand. most things that are neutral to your moves, more specifically your ice STAB, don't really give a shit about the damage you're doing until you hit +2. even things like slowking and sinistcha that are weak to knock can take an unboosted hit just fine. your bulk is also pretty bad and any stray hits put you at a much greater risk, especially when you're weak to u-turn and the three most common types of priority in the tier. the lack of room to experiment with moveslots is also pretty tough, you'd love to be able to afford something like low kick for steels or protect for lokix but it ends up not being very doable since your core four (knock, axel, shard, SD) is hard to justify changing. also jokes about accuracy aside, axel does have a tendency to botch the job at times and leave you in VERY awkward situations, especially since that third hit is the one you really want.

i think all in all weavile is just a very strong breaker that's good at making progress and that's good and fine and healthy actually. please let him live!

In my midterm rn ... but felt like i should answer this..

if you have played any gen prior to SV you know how much keldeo hates eating a knock off... esp specs variants where it might be a breaker on ur team or smth, this sounds like ass counterplay esp since it kinda neuters it and id say job well done on weavile

takes to much from knock off + axel to really be able to switch in more than once

dies to SD if it iisnt scarfed while scarfed wants nothing to do with it and cant really switch in against anything, esp to knock off

pickpocket variants can work but this sucks for shit that u want it to check like latios and is prob the only form of actual counterplay (unless you pickpocket a choice band)

is exclusive to HO, dies to tera ice axel if it tries to switch in (you need 2 3 hits) but yeah i guess it can work but its exclusive to HO pretty much.

pretty much the only form of solid counterplay but ive heard nothing but ass about pex

cant switch in and are basically speed control options... either way ive seen a lot less kix and scizor.

gets its ass low kicked, sp. def doesnt like losing lefties, and sand isnt really smth weavile is really worried about, and sand gets bullied by weavile quite a bit

is one low kick away from dying and knock off stings a lot

can take it on but loses to tera ice and forces a roost quite often which is quite the pickle to be in

yeah... no set of azu wants to switch in and lose its item

Low kick does so much, knock off removing boots stings, axel -> knock kills quite often which means that u cant do shit to it,.... tera normal e speed caps at around 72%

losing lefties sucks and means u take so much chip dmg, scald dmg racks up, and esp if you are toxic'ed for whatever reason or have to check smth else, and all it takes is some good doubles to force a pain split and you can take advantage of that, SD kinda creams it.
________________________________

You talk about how hard it is to get but i disagree, weavile forces so many switches due to its offense and speed that it often can get one by sheer pressure, you are not going ot sack ur torn-t in front of weavile on the off chance they SD, what about smth like Zarude clicking power whip to call it out, or serp clicking glare, this is way to risky for the opponent to actually do and makes it so weav clicking SD is actually way less risky than u think

Weavile bulk is bad but for a lot of shit tanking one hit is enough to apply a lot of pressure (if you even need to take one), slowking is kinda fother for it (colbur is obvious and you really dont wanna lose ur slowking), scarf hoopa hyperspace does a lot but not enough to it, hydrapple doesnt do enough with draco for it to really be worried about

Snow btw makes it way less risky and mons like hoopa, rock slide exca, zarude, mamoswine, ogerpon, etc dont do enough to it

 

[seiuqq]

please ban this thing

 

[Peum]

There is a table? Is this a call for avalugg to be spammed? Does coil mean a future where dudunsparce is ranked?

Dudunsparce S-Rank when

I am mostly thinking of Do Not Ban here, personally I like what Weavile brings to the tier, it beats the Bulky Unkillable mons while losing to all the priority we have (Lokix, Scizor, Keldeo, Comfey, Metagross), having Triple Miss also gives it a chance of it just deciding to not attack and losing your win condition, with Weavile on the tier the meta will stabilize to have more Scarfers and Priority instead of abusing of the Setup Sweeper of the team (Zarude, Enamorus-Therian, Okidogi, Ogerpon) and just winning on the spot because the tier doesnt have the tools to stop them.

 

[Cynde]

Don't think weavile is really broken.

Primarily been using offence featuring a weavile and I can confidently say that weavile is neither broken on or against offence. Against offence it doesn't get the time to SD and with boots is not strong enough to trade. The 2 games I lost during reqs was caused by weavile KOing something and opening the door to quaquaval on my opps HO team. On offence it's not that broken either because without the benefit of The Pivots (which are the actual mons that have the tier in a chokehold) it doesn't get enough chances to get in the game to clean house.

I played a few games with stall and since stall has the luxury to run unaware + skarm + pex, weavile doesn't have the muscle to get past those either unless there's some grave misplay. Though I will admit SD tera ice does become a little scarier in this m/u. Any other set hasn't seemed to be.

I think the main issue here is that there has been a lack of imagination at how to tackle offensive threats after being influenced by the dominant trends from last metagame. Many teams have not really adapted their structure and are effectively running the same defensive pivots like torn, slowking, cobalion, sandy shocks (often on the same team) and using them to enable stuff like weavile. I don't think weavile is at fault here. You can replace it with greninja, lokix, and a plethora of other mon that I think far exceed weavile's brokenness and net the same effect. and we all saw plenty of that in the pre-drops metagame.

These BO / Balance volt turn teams are the best in the metagame. There is no question about that. And I think part of weavile's value to the tier is that it actually anyone using the team to play with more of an element of thought. there is no brainlessly pivoting and them playing excessively reactively with their defensive pivots will go punished. That is an interaction I think is a net positive for the tier and is worth keeping weav around for.

It's not like these teams have no hope. There are several pokemon both offensive and defensive that can limit what weavile likes to do (many of them have been listed by gulch) and it just requires a bit more thought in how these teams are getting built. They just need to be a bit proactive and not only rely on switching into weavile, taking another hit + pivoting out / recovering and still hoping to be useful later in the game.

Banning weavile at this stage would be a mistake. On balance I think it would do more harm to the tier for the benefit of only one smooth brain archetype. Do we really want a more centralised metagame where the already great pivots freely dominate more often than they already are?

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Dudunsparce S-Rank when

I am mostly thinking of Do Not Ban here, personally I like what Weavile brings to the tier, it beats the Bulky Unkillable mons while losing to all the priority we have (Lokix, Scizor, Keldeo, Comfey, Metagross), having Triple Miss also gives it a chance of it just deciding to not attack and losing your win condition, with Weavile on the tier the meta will stabilize to have more Scarfers and Priority instead of abusing of the Setup Sweeper of the team (Zarude, Enamorus-Therian, Okidogi, Ogerpon) and just winning on the spot because the tier doesnt have the tools to stop them.

- What does it bring to the tier? The bulky unkillable mons are who?
- Sure it loses to priority but comfey is exclusive to HO, meta isnt even guaranteed to run bullet punch nor can it kill, keldeo def doesnt want to click vacuum wave into slowking and just knock off stings it a lot, every other mon here hates switching into it
- The tier alr doesnt like dealing with hoopa u, why should we vote DNB when its just shit after shit, monky even describes the tier hasnt had a calm state in like 10 months where smth wasnt getting fried

Don't think weavile is really broken.

Primarily been using offence featuring a weavile and I can confidently say that weavile is neither broken on or against offence. Against offence it doesn't get the time to SD and with boots is not strong enough to trade. The 2 games I lost during reqs was caused by weavile KOing something and opening the door to quaquaval on my opps HO team. On offence it's not that broken either because without the benefit of The Pivots (which are the actual mons that have the tier in a chokehold) it doesn't get enough chances to get in the game to clean house.

I played a few games with stall and since stall has the luxury to run unaware + skarm + pex, weavile doesn't have the muscle to get past those either unless there's some grave misplay. Though I will admit SD tera ice does become a little scarier in this m/u. Any other set hasn't seemed to be.

I think the main issue here is that there has been a lack of imagination at how to tackle offensive threats after being influenced by the dominant trends from last metagame. Many teams have not really adapted their structure and are effectively running the same defensive pivots like torn, slowking, cobalion, sandy shocks (often on the same team) and using them to enable stuff like weavile. I don't think weavile is at fault here. You can replace it with greninja, lokix, and a plethora of other mon that I think far exceed weavile's brokenness and net the same effect. and we all saw plenty of that in the pre-drops metagame.

These BO / Balance volt turn teams are the best in the metagame. There is no question about that. And I think part of weavile's value to the tier is that it actually anyone using the team to play with more of an element of thought. there is no brainlessly pivoting and them playing excessively reactively with their defensive pivots will go punished. That is an interaction I think is a net positive for the tier and is worth keeping weav around for.

It's not like these teams have no hope. There are several pokemon both offensive and defensive that can limit what weavile likes to do (many of them have been listed by gulch) and it just requires a bit more thought in how these teams are getting built. They just need to be a bit proactive and not only rely on switching into weavile, taking another hit + pivoting out / recovering and still hoping to be useful later in the game.

Banning weavile at this stage would be a mistake. On balance I think it would do more harm to the tier for the benefit of only one smooth brain archetype. Do we really want a more centralised metagame where the already great pivots freely dominate more often than they already are?

Im 99% sure weavile is one of the best abusers of volt turn in the tier... and i doubt people are wanting to ban it are ladder wannabe that cant build teams for shit.

I mean why are you not running pivots to get weavile in as often as possible risk free, torn-t u turns into smth and brings weavile in or you have a rotom-w who volt switches on bulky mons to bring in weavile which sounds like pretty darn good. I feel SD has enough opportunities, with the threat of fast speed and a good offensive typing you can def smack some mons around who try to read you into an attack and switch, nor do many mons actually want to risk the 50/50 nor can people really tell what ur moveset is until you reveal it cuz it can be axel, knock, shard/low kick, sd and just be smacking mons around

Why would banning weavile do more harm than good? is there smth in the meta that is so held back by weavile being here that we cant go "well we will deal with this shit after weavile"

If for ex. it leads to more scarf hoopa being spammed then boot it out, im unsure what the problem is

 

[Lizzie]

Streets are saying weavile is not broken and thus i am posting again. To begin with we should establish that weavile essentially mandates running a pokemon that resists both dark and ice. You can maybe circumvent this somewhat if you have kix or scizor meaning your revenge killers arent worried about ice shard (although sciz getting chipped into range isnt completely inconceivable), but you are likely then presented with the issue of what to switch into knock off and trying to be cute and pivot around it isnt exactly in your favour when its as fast as it is. So broadly speaking in order to account for sd stabs + ice shard you are reliant on defensive counterplay which can vary in how sturdy it is and how good it is in the meta, ideally with priority to help shore up the mu.

The next problem you encounter is that there are ways around this defensive counterplay. Low kick is common enough that coba has pretty much switched to always being chople, and while this does slow weavile down you get knocked and youre no longer a switch in to low kick weavile. Theres also the issue that weavile can tera, with ghost having been common punishing fighting moves while ive been shilling tera electric tera blast all day, which will beat coba switching in on sd 1v1 always (tera blast 2hkos as coba fails to ko and cant even twave now). Both of these have the added benefit of giving weavile more oppurtunities to guarantee an sd, while flipping the mu vs many of its checks. The way around this is basically having lokix or a scarfer, or never allowing weavile to get a "free" sd so that you can rely on certain weaker forms of priority.

I think that overall you can look at this and make an argument that this mon is manageable, its not that unreasonable to fit all this stuff, many teams already did. The problem comes from the fact that you can have good counterplay and weavile is still broken because clicking its stabs basically makes infinite progress, especially with hazards up. When you look at the checks cited, only quaquaval and toxapex have recovery and the reality is that theyre just not very good and arent used very often for a reason, and in quaqs case dont even like running recovery, while the more splashable checks this mon has like coba and tink are pretty susceptible to hazards and being chipped down by the volt turn cores that are supposedly the real problem.

Weavile is broken just by clicking taxel and knock and then it gets to sd and run another attack for funsies. Even in the event less splashable counterplay options like pex and quaq really start to take off tera elecs oppurtunity cost really isnt all that and it becomes increasingly incentivised to be used. When i was getting reqs i used tera blast electric and vs offense i honestly just... threw out attacks a lot. Tera blast okhos quaq with a spike up which resulted in a lot of favourable positions for me, and i never felt like i missed shard or low kick. Vs fatter stuff id normally blow through pex with tera blast and my opponents teams would just kind of fall apart vs it. I think ice shard is missed a bit vs more bo style teams but its knock off is still crazy.

Ultimately i wish this mon wasnt broken cos if it was balanced itd be a great addition to the tier but unfortunately it is not healthy please ban it thx besties

 

[technoTS]

I wanted to add in a mon on the come-up imo that hasnt been mentioned yet - Conkeldurr. Ive been running a tanky set with flame orb - drain punch, bulk up, mach punch, knock off. This set had been mad scary for the tier overall and can handle weavile pretty easily with mach punch. If it gets up a bulk up or 2, it can easily sweep teams too lowkey. Also shoutouts bellibolt too as a defensive mon into weavile for static.

Overall tho, Ive been liking weavile in the tier cuz it can help vs those pesky stall matchups and covers tornadus-t (something that can easily pivot around knocking off items/changing momentum - a bit too easily imo).

 

[bungeegum_420]

i was initially in favor of keeping this thing because i felt that it's most common tera types still allowed coba to beat it, and i dismissed tera electric to blank t-wave as a theory mon, i totally forgot boltbeam but after seeing it i don't really see a reason to keep it.
it might've been fine if the tier had fewer dangerous dark types and dedicating resources to this thing would've been less costly, but since that's not the case, it's a massive strain on teambuilding as a result, there's only so much tink and coba can do.
the only possible counter argument to this form of reasoning is 'banning something else will make weavile more reasonable to deal with', but that's irrelevant given the decision to suspect weavile now, so banning weavile feels a good decision

Overall tho, Ive been liking weavile in the tier cuz it can help vs those pesky stall matchups and covers tornadus-t (something that can easily pivot around knocking off items/changing momentum - a bit too easily imo).

can't say i disagree with this either, i do like it's presence and if the other dark types get banned later , i'd love a weavile resuspect[granted it doesn't become ou anyway]

Edit:
Clarifying that the dark types i'm talking about are hoopa and gren, not kix, it's fine imo

 

[Azulblade]

i was initially in favor of keeping this thing because i felt that it's most common tera types still allowed coba to beat it, and i dismissed tera electric to blank t-wave as a theory mon, i totally forgot boltbeam but after seeing it i don't really see a reason to keep it.
it might've been fine if the tier had fewer dangerous dark types and dedicating resources to this thing would've been less costly, but since that's not the case, it's a massive strain on teambuilding as a result, there's only so much tink and coba can do.
the only possible counter argument to this form of reasoning is 'banning something else will make weavile more reasonable to deal with', but that's irrelevant given the decision to suspect weavile now, so banning weavile feels a good decision

can't say i disagree with this either, i do like it's presence and if the other dark types get banned later , i'd love a weavile resuspect[granted it doesn't become ou anyway]

Haha lokix go brr

 

[Tree69420]

yeah idk what i need to say it 2HKOs if not OHKOs like 90% of the tier with just 2 stab moves and no choice item, with a CB and tera or an SD up it just completely blows through teams, low kick and tera elec blast both goob most counterplay

it beats the Bulky Unkillable mons while losing to all the priority we have (Lokix, Scizor, Keldeo, Comfey, Metagross), having Triple Miss also gives it a chance of it just deciding to not attack and losing your win condition, with Weavile on the tier the meta will stabilize to have more Scarfers and Priority instead of abusing of the Setup Sweeper of the team (Zarude, Enamorus-Therian, Okidogi, Ogerpon) and just winning on the spot because the tier doesnt have the tools to stop them.

arguably stall might be one of the best styles vs it, and tera flips its matchups vs all the priority you listed, tera elec resists bullet punch and +2 knock ohkos with minimal chip + cleanly ohkos meta, +2 elecblast ohkos keld, its easy to force comfey to tera vs smth else and any fairy neutral tera will let weavile goob it with taxel, kix is actually an omega fake answer (tera bug fimp is a 50% roll to ohko any neutral tera weav, weav blows it up with taxel)
the defensive counterplay is like not there either, keld and quav are already tasked with handling gren and often tran, elecblast destroys them, weav can also tera ghost on a fighting move and get a free sd on them, yes slowking lives a knock but what are you doing back, coba gets blown up by low kick or if it takes chip then elecblast as well, azu is a not real mon, tran has the same issue as weav although can fish for flame body (but flame body is the worst ability of all time never activates when you need it to), pex and avalugg are arguably the best answers to weavile and those are fat and hard stall exclusives so you know thats messed up
im honestly not sure if this mon is that broken without all the other brokens (hoopa dogi cpon) running around but this is the mon being suspected and rn in this meta its stupid as balls to handle both in the builder and in game
please vote BAN if youre gonna get reqs anything gone would lower pressure and improve the tier significantly

 

[Negative_emotions916]

I haven't decided if I am going to vote ban or not, but please, let's not huff the copium of mons such as Keldeo,Coballion,Tran,Dogi,pex, rotom being reliable switch-ins.
Keldeo gets crippled hard by knock-off, losing specs reduces it's already mediocre breaking abilities significantly, losing leftovers isn't that bad but it's not a loss it appreciates taking nevertheless, it also takes like 27% from knock and 34% ish from Axel .
Coballion is a decent switch in to it's stabs and punishes knock well but takes 60% at the minimum from a Low kick.
Tran similarly gets slammed by kick but also lacks the luxury of being comfortable taking a knock.
Dogi loses scarf from knock and will get 2hkod by triple Axel .
Weavile can simply boost up with SD and Massively threaten Pex and rotom, with rotom being able to barely live and Cripple it with Wisp, neither appreciate losing leftovers/boots.
Defensive Tera is something which isn't even something most people consider, which weavile can abuse. Tera poison flips the script on mons who safely get in amd threaten weavile out, and let's not forget that you probably don't have more than 1mon who can outspeed and Ko .
Hoopa is debatably the best scarfer in the meta and can outspeed and ohko weavile, all while surviving a +2 Ice shard, he looks like a great rkiller for weavile on paper, but when we take a closer look and take into account how prevalent hazards are in the tier, I doubt hoopa is reliably higher than 70% hp . Oh and if they decide Tera ice then that's just too bad.
The arguments for Dnb Weavile to me which I have seen so far haven't been more than "Just outplay bro" .
I believe HydreigonTheChild has done a great Job going more in-depth than I have.

 

[Cynde]

The problem comes from the fact that you can have good counterplay and weavile is still broken because clicking its stabs basically makes infinite progress, especially with hazards up.

Is that not the point of the game? To make progress? Or do people win based on whose Pivot has regenerated the most HP? It's not something that should be held against Weavile. Surely it's not this trait that makes a Pokemon problematic...right?

please vote BAN if youre gonna get reqs anything gone would lower pressure and improve the tier significantly

The ban contingent wants to remove pressure from defensive pokemon so they can switch in and out with impunity. You will see this as a common aspect of their arguments. But moving away from progress making pokemon, in my opinion is not how you 'improve a tier'

Another aspect of these pro-ban arguments is that somehow in the same post they talk about Weavile cleaning through the entire metagame with 6 moves at its disposal. Tera Elec + Tera Ice + Ice Shard + Tera Blast + Knock + Low Kick + Swords Dance and whatever else gets tacked onto the list.

There are many good Weavile checks that handle some Weavile set or the other that can organically fit on to teams because they happen to check the other great dark types we have in the tier too. Does Weavile have its way around them? Sure. Can any one set find its way around all of them? Definitely not. Every set has manageable drawbacks. For example, Elec Tera is a tera hog and vulnerable to priority, non upper hand is revenged by lokix, non ice shard is revenged by priority, non low kick can be checked by cobalion etc. The way the ban weavile camp has been phrasing its ability to 'annihilate the tier' you'd think they'd have never won a game against weavile with any reasonably built team.

Most teams are not going to have one mon that is a 100% counter to every weavile set that will exist. I think that is just an unrealistic expectation to have in gen 9. Instead they will just have to be built with a little more activity to make sure they either don't give too many free turns either to set up or attack, or can actually check a weavile once it is set up. That isn't asking too much of the tier.

But there's no sense I think in going down the list of possible checks, because the no ban weavile camp is going to argue that these are all very reasonable checks in a real game even if your opponent does play flawlessly, and the pro ban weavile camp wants to say these are all gonna get smacked with no hope of counterplay.

For me I still maintain that the main reason to keep weavile is that the things it pressures is exactly what is making it a positive addition to this metagame. I want progress, I want a mon with very definite flaws of a finite moveset and paltry bulk that is capable of forcing dominant archetypes in this metagame to play a little more carefully, very few pokemon are. It is a Pokemon that rewards skill (barring Triple Axel). Can you correctly anticipate a switch or tera to set up? Or will your weavile either lose its chance to set up safely / outright die? Can you correctly build around your chosen weavile sets to limit its flaws?

It is good for the tier, doesn't let dominant archetypes run unchecked, rewards playing well and building well and is therefore worth keeping.

 

[Tree69420]

Is that not the point of the game? To make progress? Or do people win based on whose Pivot has regenerated the most HP? It's not something that should be held against Weavile. Surely it's not this trait that makes a Pokemon problematic...right?

The ban contingent wants to remove pressure from defensive pokemon so they can switch in and out with impunity. You will see this as a common aspect of their arguments. But moving away from progress making pokemon, in my opinion is not how you 'improve a tier'

??? You can still easily pressure regen cores with strong breakers, CB mons, hazards, etc, there are still a ton of ways to make progress in the tier. Brokens like Weav and Hoopa just make it way too easy, forcing a extremely offensive meta and even hyperoffensive (which is definitely unhealthy imo).

About the sets, yes Weavile won't have a move to hit all of its checks, but moves for 1 mon still hit another for solid damage. Are you going to stack 4 Weavile checks on a team? No, because then you can't be solid into the other threats in the tier, such as Dogi, Apple, Cpon, Hoopa, or HO in general. Of course, if you are loading 5 setup sweepers and a suicide lead, you would have zero problem dealing with this defensive builder pressure that balance and bulky offense have to deal with. Also, Weavile checks are also tasked with checking other threats who are often stacked with Weav. +2 Tera Elec Blast does ~60 to common Coba and Tran sets, and +2 Low Kick does a similar amount to Keld and Quaq. Obviously, Rotom cannot be expected to stay outside of Weavile range at all. Yes, you can deal with Weavile, but in this meta with too many threats it's unreasonable to be able to handle them all, and Weavile is almost the worst offender while adding very little to the tier otherwise. Even though Dogi is a massive strain on both the builder and the game, at least it checks common threats such as Zarude and Gren, and can act as a scarfer. Weav has no such defensive attributes, beyond the dark typing to punish Latios and Psychic-locked Hoopa, which is replicated by every single other Dark type in the tier.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Is that not the point of the game? To make progress? Or do people win based on whose Pivot has regenerated the most HP? It's not something that should be held against Weavile. Surely it's not this trait that makes a Pokemon problematic...right?



The ban contingent wants to remove pressure from defensive pokemon so they can switch in and out with impunity. You will see this as a common aspect of their arguments. But moving away from progress making pokemon, in my opinion is not how you 'improve a tier'

Another aspect of these pro-ban arguments is that somehow in the same post they talk about Weavile cleaning through the entire metagame with 6 moves at its disposal. Tera Elec + Tera Ice + Ice Shard + Tera Blast + Knock + Low Kick + Swords Dance and whatever else gets tacked onto the list.

There are many good Weavile checks that handle some Weavile set or the other that can organically fit on to teams because they happen to check the other great dark types we have in the tier too. Does Weavile have its way around them? Sure. Can any one set find its way around all of them? Definitely not. Every set has manageable drawbacks. For example, Elec Tera is a tera hog and vulnerable to priority, non upper hand is revenged by lokix, non ice shard is revenged by priority, non low kick can be checked by cobalion etc. The way the ban weavile camp has been phrasing its ability to 'annihilate the tier' you'd think they'd have never won a game against weavile with any reasonably built team.

Most teams are not going to have one mon that is a 100% counter to every weavile set that will exist. I think that is just an unrealistic expectation to have in gen 9. Instead they will just have to be built with a little more activity to make sure they either don't give too many free turns either to set up or attack, or can actually check a weavile once it is set up. That isn't asking too much of the tier.

But there's no sense I think in going down the list of possible checks, because the no ban weavile camp is going to argue that these are all very reasonable checks in a real game even if your opponent does play flawlessly, and the pro ban weavile camp wants to say these are all gonna get smacked with no hope of counterplay.

For me I still maintain that the main reason to keep weavile is that the things it pressures is exactly what is making it a positive addition to this metagame. I want progress, I want a mon with very definite flaws of a finite moveset and paltry bulk that is capable of forcing dominant archetypes in this metagame to play a little more carefully, very few pokemon are. It is a Pokemon that rewards skill (barring Triple Axel). Can you correctly anticipate a switch or tera to set up? Or will your weavile either lose its chance to set up safely / outright die? Can you correctly build around your chosen weavile sets to limit its flaws?

It is good for the tier, doesn't let dominant archetypes run unchecked, rewards playing well and building well and is therefore worth keeping.

- We have many mons to make progress, we didnt not boot ursaluna because we were like "oh no regen mons are going to tear up the metagame whatever will i do". Even if this is the case and teams are now gonna get owned by by regen mons we have okidogi, heatran, mamoswine, hoopa, spikes + knock off to pressure it
- Surely the tier will improve if we make one of the best shitters on defense exist in the tier rent free
- If you guess the set wrong then sucks for you, weavile is fast so the loss in ice shard may not be smth u notice esp from a point of view from the opponent, it can still be 4 attacks or 3 attacks sd, and if its SD you def dont want ur cobalion to just drop from a low kick. You just arent gonna be like "oh well its gonna be 2 ice stab + knock and not low kick"
- I also like how ursaluna punishes shit play and rewards good play if you can play it well, if you just think its a balance breaker and then be surprised when it fails to even pick up one ko often times an do 60% to cobalion and be forced out / burn tera to get smth going is smth that i found to be common place (yet there was like 80% ban or smth i counted a while ago).
- When one is playing against weavile you are often on the backfoot, it has a lot of things it can run to take over a MU and i doubt you wanna be the person who switches in their coba to eat a knock -> low kick or having their coba be taking way to much dmg for smth late game to take advantage of it
- The opponent doesnt know what weavile is running, for all i know im SD with only stab attacks but my opponent may think otherwise because they dont have the info to play around it, sure u can switch into pickpocket tink to bully weavile but 1. its worn down without lefties 2. this is one mon out of many that i find that hard counters it, everything else struggles to come in and loses ot some tera ice set, SD set, maybe a CB set on removal teams and generally teams arent able to fit such counterplay esp with how fast and strong it is

 

[Punny]

Is that not the point of the game? To make progress? Or do people win based on whose Pivot has regenerated the most HP? It's not something that should be held against Weavile. Surely it's not this trait that makes a Pokemon problematic...right?



The ban contingent wants to remove pressure from defensive pokemon so they can switch in and out with impunity. You will see this as a common aspect of their arguments. But moving away from progress making pokemon, in my opinion is not how you 'improve a tier'

Another aspect of these pro-ban arguments is that somehow in the same post they talk about Weavile cleaning through the entire metagame with 6 moves at its disposal. Tera Elec + Tera Ice + Ice Shard + Tera Blast + Knock + Low Kick + Swords Dance and whatever else gets tacked onto the list.

There are many good Weavile checks that handle some Weavile set or the other that can organically fit on to teams because they happen to check the other great dark types we have in the tier too. Does Weavile have its way around them? Sure. Can any one set find its way around all of them? Definitely not. Every set has manageable drawbacks. For example, Elec Tera is a tera hog and vulnerable to priority, non upper hand is revenged by lokix, non ice shard is revenged by priority, non low kick can be checked by cobalion etc. The way the ban weavile camp has been phrasing its ability to 'annihilate the tier' you'd think they'd have never won a game against weavile with any reasonably built team.

Most teams are not going to have one mon that is a 100% counter to every weavile set that will exist. I think that is just an unrealistic expectation to have in gen 9. Instead they will just have to be built with a little more activity to make sure they either don't give too many free turns either to set up or attack, or can actually check a weavile once it is set up. That isn't asking too much of the tier.

But there's no sense I think in going down the list of possible checks, because the no ban weavile camp is going to argue that these are all very reasonable checks in a real game even if your opponent does play flawlessly, and the pro ban weavile camp wants to say these are all gonna get smacked with no hope of counterplay.

For me I still maintain that the main reason to keep weavile is that the things it pressures is exactly what is making it a positive addition to this metagame. I want progress, I want a mon with very definite flaws of a finite moveset and paltry bulk that is capable of forcing dominant archetypes in this metagame to play a little more carefully, very few pokemon are. It is a Pokemon that rewards skill (barring Triple Axel). Can you correctly anticipate a switch or tera to set up? Or will your weavile either lose its chance to set up safely / outright die? Can you correctly build around your chosen weavile sets to limit its flaws?

It is good for the tier, doesn't let dominant archetypes run unchecked, rewards playing well and building well and is therefore worth keeping.

The issue is a ton of these supposed checks are not good pokemon. First of all, id actually like to asses that most of the mons mentioned in the other posts are NOT good answers to weavile. Rotom/keldeo/skarmory/scizor/lokix are not good weavile switch-ins. Rotom takes a huge amount from knock off and does not have reliable recovery (also highly prefers running spdef these days for stuff like greninja), keldeo does not enjoy knock either and hardly ever makes progress without an item, skarmory loses its helmet to knock so it cannot punish weavile and gets abused by everything else in the meta, same for toxapex. Scizor and lokix dont want to come in on knock off and while yes, they could be considered good rkillers, you are not considering an important factor. Weavile isn't alone, there are five other pokemons that are either enabled by weavile or that enable it to do its job even better. What happens if your opp has weavile with flame body tran behind? You'd get burned and then you would not be able to rkill weavile anymore. Quaquaval and tinkaton are probably the best checks mentioned as they resist all of weaviles moves quite well, and would only lose to a tera blast set. Don't rly feel like mentioning that possibility though, as weavile definitely doesn't need it. That is because those two pokemon mentioned match-up pretty bad against a great portion of the tier (excadrill/rotom/heatran for tinka, torn/rotom/slowking/enam/apple for defensive quaquaval), so they can be easily taken adventage of.
Its best checks are by far cobalion and heatran, latter being actually really good at handling it considering weavile needs low kick to beat its def set and that it can still get burned while killing it. Issue at that point is to beat weavile either one of those two things happen: you use your tera on heatran to tank low kick, you die to low kick but you get the burn. Losing tera would 100% put you at a disadvantage, so lets consider the latter, which is definitely a good enough solution to handling weavile. But what happens if the opponent has a scizor or zarude or whatever behind to abuse heatran being gone? The issue with no ban posts ive seen thus far is ppl who posted seem to think a mon is broken only when unbeatable and sweeps almost every game. Spoiler: a mon does not need to kill al six pokemons to be actually broken. And thats what happens here imo. We don't need a mon whose defensive utility is approx 0 and that enambles a ton of 5050s and rng turns (flamebody), ban this thing.