Also I've seen quagsire do pretty well since it can't be paralyzed and has unaware so foul play doesn't do much.
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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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So the swagplay user's moveset is taunt, swagger, foul play, and most likely sub to not get themselves confused. Well, Reuniclus does get Night Shade, which will eat through the swagplay user regardless of subs. So it does force the switch. I don't see how that's a waste of time at all.
More or less, this is true of every match in the game. When your Play Rough misses that dragon type, making you lose the game. When that Scald burned a majority of your team. When you were fully paralyzed 3 turns in a row. What is the reason we don't ban other elements of the game that make it a coinflip? Just because these elements do have preventative measures, swagplay does as well, and these are much more common and versatile then a full swagplay team.
A better comparison to SwagPlay would be paraflinching, a strategy intentionally designed to keep the opponent from doing anything. A Jirachi has a better chance of stopping your attack than Swagger.
I would use the paraflinch analogy, but that's been "debunked" many times in the thread already, and people are confident that it's "not as bad" as swagplay.
Yeah I can't wait to put Night Shade on my Reuniclus just to "counter" swagplay. And yes, there is plenty of hax in pokemon. I'm well aware of that, thank you. But you don't have to build teams around not getting burned by Scald, and Play Rough is good enough to where it pays off way more often than not.
I'm going to make a more detailed post in a bit that will hopefully clarify why this is a *potential* ban (honestly you guys need to chill out)... or you can read the OP.
The possible counters for this "strategy" are so obscure and centralizing that it's clear there is a problem here. People claim you can beat it with taunt/sub, forgetting these moves are always going to go after prankster users. Use a magic bouncer: no, they all get smashed by foul play. Keep switching out: what happens when there are hazards all over the field? Own tempo, lum berry, blissey, and other prankster users would be the most reliable counter. Having to run something like that simply for fear of running into a team like this ruins teambuilding. I shouldn't be forced to dedicate a member of my team to countering this crap. The match becomes completely based on chance and removes all thought and prediction from the equation.
Ban Swagger+Prankster.
Ban Swagger+Prankster.
Don't forget what Haunter said in the very first post:
Bold emphasis my own. We've not been corralled into discussing which of only three options we think is best: we've been invited to suggest other possible measures which would address the issue.
But since you ask ... of the three options Haunter listed, my personal preference would be Complex Ban > Swagger Ban > Creature Ban. It's overkill to ban Swagger in its entirety. (As many, many others have pointed out, you should ban other nuisance moves too if this is to be the case.) And it's incredibly unfair to the creatures to ban them rather than banning the aspect of them that makes them allegedly broken. So the best option of the three provided in the OP post would be the complex ban.
Swagger + Prankster is not even that powerfull. It will lose plenty of matches because of mere luck, just as it will win plenty of matches because of pure luck.
"But Prankster teams are not bad, I have seen some of them pretty high on the ladder" People scream
As someone who has used prankster team, I can tell you one of the big reasons why those teams escalate the laddder is because there are a lot of guyss who just ragequit when one of their pokemon hits itself with confusion or even before the match starts. Is not because the prankster player is actually winning those matches. So the prankster player gets an artificially better ranking even if he would have lost the match.
I don't think people are thinking about what precedence will a ban of swagger prankster set. It would be the first time Smogon bans something not because is overpowered, but basically because a lot of people don't like to play against it.
So what happens if in a few months a lot of player decide that playing against stall isn't fun either? Will we ban recovery moves too? I have also seen teams that work by using pp stall. These can be very boring to play against too. Shall we ban those kind of teams as well if people feel like it?
I am for NO BAN. Because they are not broken.
"But Prankster teams are not bad, I have seen some of them pretty high on the ladder" People scream
As someone who has used prankster team, I can tell you one of the big reasons why those teams escalate the laddder is because there are a lot of guyss who just ragequit when one of their pokemon hits itself with confusion or even before the match starts. Is not because the prankster player is actually winning those matches. So the prankster player gets an artificially better ranking even if he would have lost the match.
I don't think people are thinking about what precedence will a ban of swagger prankster set. It would be the first time Smogon bans something not because is overpowered, but basically because a lot of people don't like to play against it.
So what happens if in a few months a lot of player decide that playing against stall isn't fun either? Will we ban recovery moves too? I have also seen teams that work by using pp stall. These can be very boring to play against too. Shall we ban those kind of teams as well if people feel like it?
I am for NO BAN. Because they are not broken.
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I agree with a complex ban of Prankster + confusion move. It is no fun to play against and there are very few counterplays.
However, Pokemon is inherently a game of luck. I do not understand the argument that we should ban confusion period on basis of it turning the game into a coinflip. Even if you are playing very well, one crit/flinch/other move side effect can swing a match in someone else's favor and you can't build a team around unpredictable outcomes. I prefer to think of things in the "play > counterplay" mindset. Yeah, regular confusion may be annoying but you have far more options against it because there's not priority behind it, namely outspeeding it or the opponent using an unviable Pokemon/set. Prankster is what breaks it, non-Prankster Pokemon are sacrificing a better move in that slot for high risk. For example, would you ever run Magician Klefki, regular Liepard, or Swagger on Defiant Thundurus sacrificing a slot for coverage? I mean I could go on but a lot of Pokemon that learn confusion moves don't run them because it wouldn't make a good set; confusion is not inherently bad in of itself, it's the combination with Prankster. If the opponent chooses to run those just for confusion, they are taking a huge risk and you have a good chance at winning. It is high risk-high reward, and seeing how it is as much of a risk for the opponent as it is for you, I don't see why it should be done away with completely.
However, Pokemon is inherently a game of luck. I do not understand the argument that we should ban confusion period on basis of it turning the game into a coinflip. Even if you are playing very well, one crit/flinch/other move side effect can swing a match in someone else's favor and you can't build a team around unpredictable outcomes. I prefer to think of things in the "play > counterplay" mindset. Yeah, regular confusion may be annoying but you have far more options against it because there's not priority behind it, namely outspeeding it or the opponent using an unviable Pokemon/set. Prankster is what breaks it, non-Prankster Pokemon are sacrificing a better move in that slot for high risk. For example, would you ever run Magician Klefki, regular Liepard, or Swagger on Defiant Thundurus sacrificing a slot for coverage? I mean I could go on but a lot of Pokemon that learn confusion moves don't run them because it wouldn't make a good set; confusion is not inherently bad in of itself, it's the combination with Prankster. If the opponent chooses to run those just for confusion, they are taking a huge risk and you have a good chance at winning. It is high risk-high reward, and seeing how it is as much of a risk for the opponent as it is for you, I don't see why it should be done away with completely.
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Blissey actually does a great job of ruining the regular SwagPlay user.
+6 0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 157-186 (21.9 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is with the standard Blissey and 31 attack IVs. If you want to stop it even deader, give her 0 Attack IVs.
+6 0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 70-84 (9.8 - 11.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Blissey's confusion damage is meaningless, as it's a base 40 power move coming off 88 attack, coming out to I think 20-24 damage.
+6 0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey on a critical hit: 237-279 (33.1 - 39%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even a crit will be no worse than HP Fighting from something with decent special attack. With riddlinkid stating that one needs to be forced to run something to counter it is silly, since this is the standard Blissey. What does it matter if the foe has a team of pranksters and you only have a 37.5% chance to do something when that something is breaking their sub or undoing the past five turns of their actions. If they're wise enough to switch out, Blissey's done her job of stopping the foe. The only thing she needs to be wary of is a Thundurus Superpower, but how common is that on a SwagPlay Thundurus?
+6 0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 157-186 (21.9 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is with the standard Blissey and 31 attack IVs. If you want to stop it even deader, give her 0 Attack IVs.
+6 0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 70-84 (9.8 - 11.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
Blissey's confusion damage is meaningless, as it's a base 40 power move coming off 88 attack, coming out to I think 20-24 damage.
+6 0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey on a critical hit: 237-279 (33.1 - 39%) -- 10% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even a crit will be no worse than HP Fighting from something with decent special attack. With riddlinkid stating that one needs to be forced to run something to counter it is silly, since this is the standard Blissey. What does it matter if the foe has a team of pranksters and you only have a 37.5% chance to do something when that something is breaking their sub or undoing the past five turns of their actions. If they're wise enough to switch out, Blissey's done her job of stopping the foe. The only thing she needs to be wary of is a Thundurus Superpower, but how common is that on a SwagPlay Thundurus?
Tbh it's a bullshit strat and that's that. It's barely viable but it's still viable and that's the problem. Paraflich is not comparable as A. There isn't enough pokes with it to make a Paraflinch team and B. It still goes under the laws of speed unlike mons with Prankster. All the Solutions aside from Blobs/Smeargle (And what the hell is Smeargle gonna do back) are shaky at best due to the fact the Swagger hits everything and raises their attack enough so that you can muscle past with just a lucky streak. If fucking PURRLOIN can legitmately be considered semi viable then it's not the joke start some people think it is.
I would say just Ban the combination of Prankster + Swagger as it's the core of the problem and T-Wave is a legitimate move to have on your Prankstermon.
I would say just Ban the combination of Prankster + Swagger as it's the core of the problem and T-Wave is a legitimate move to have on your Prankstermon.
Indeed, blissey with 0 Atk IVs shuts down that strategy completely. In fact, if people simply started using 0 Atk IVs on their walls and special attackers, those teams as a hole would do much worse. Is not that these teams are powerfull, is just that people are unprepared against them because this is an entirely new playstyle. Give it some time and the metagame will adapt, as it always do.
I don't play OU, and I don't think everyone should have to run Blissey on their team. That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?
And yeah, you're kind of making my point for me.
Actually, we would ban it because it can often remove skill entirely from the game between two players (I am sure there is a better way of saying this but w.e). The issue at the heart of SwagPlay, is firstly that its a fully abusable strategy (so don't bring up other shit like Hydro Pump miss or whatever), and secondly, that it has very little counterplay available. Now, I don't think anyone is claiming SwagPlay is unbeatable, just that in order to beat it you have to open up more (unhealthy) specialisation within your team in order to beat it comfortably. Yes, we can all play stall, and switch around for 300+ turns while we wait for the Swagger mon to PP stall itself out of Swagger, (which sounds really fun and all) but if people are really tossing around Night Shade Reuniclus as the end all counter to SwagPlay, and calling that a solution, then they are kidding themselves. We can all use shitty gimmicks to beat SwagPlay, but lets not forget, if you come up against something that ISN'T SwagPlay, then your gimmick is garbage.
The issue for me, is that SwagPlay can pretty much be used against a battler much more skilled than you, where you rely on your abusable luck in order to get an undeserved win. Apparently, this is the issue thats frustrating some of the higher ranked players, and its something I can see as being frustrating. There is no real slippery slope here if we hammer SwagPlay, so I don't understand why people are bitching about critical hits or whatever, we are just removing something from the metagame that is unhealthy.
The point is that you don't need something obscure like numel just to couter prankster teams like some people are saying. Something completely standard like mandibuzz and blissey will do the job. That means the prankster team guy will usually lose against teams with blissey, so they don't achieve such a good ratings overall.
I (and probably others) brought up crits+other normal "hax" occurrences to illustrate why confusion shouldn't be banned by itself and it is much easier to counterplay, agreed that Swagger (or any confusion) WITH Prankster is definitely bullshit.
Paraflinch has an answer in nearly every Electric type Pokemon. How do you propose one beats priority confusion since it's a 50/50 chance you even hit the Pokemon in question without gimmicks or something completely specialized so as to be useless against pretty much everything else?
Just because someone has Blissey doesn't mean they can't lose. A lot of free turns can be generated, and something can set up in your face while your Blissey is hitting itself with a marshmallow or whatever it does with 0 Attack IVs.
air slash has a 60/40% chance it flinching so yeah. Also klefki is frail as crap so you only need to hit through once
The "no skill needed" part is simply not true. I played prankster quite a lot and I can tell you is not quite the autopilot team that people seem to think. There are good ways and bad ways to play both with and against prankster.
As far as needing some obscure, specialized stuff in order to beat it, something like blissey or mandibuzz are not obscure. Neither is runing 0 Atk IVs on stuff that don't need it. And regarding the fact that you can beat a much more skilled player with it, that applies to all teams really. I can go up against a much more skilled player than me and end up beating him if I coincidentially happen to have the pokemon that cause his team more trouble.
Luck has always been an aspect in pokemon. I have also lost plenty of games because of a crit or because of a stone edge miss. If you don't want to lose because of luck you should play something like chess instead.
Not to argue against my own side, but the second bit's completely false. Klefki has one of the best defensive types in the game, and her bulk is deceptively decent when invested.
Does it really ruin it or just not hit herself as hard giving more chances to break the confusion and more rolls at paralyze? It's inevitable for someone so tanky and with no attack stats to get a few hits in on Liepard and get a lucky softboil. Also I don't like blissey/chansey as the end all special tank and the best solution to a pokemon who was NU just last gen and able show up everywhere. Klefki will probably be OU but for a good reason that it can not be poisoned by a staller.
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