SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

[Sinning]

This is the best thing right here. People have forgotten, or are entirely ignoring, that this strategy has always been a thing. People who argue about Prankster making it unable to be revenge killed don't pay attention to the fact that one could use this strategy in Gen III, where on many Pokemon it WAS impossible to revenge kill, and yet did not have the impact people believe Prankster does. Is it because of the difference in the metas? Maybe, but I wouldn't say it was too different(maybe a bit TTar centric, but otherwise similar).

The problem with this strategy is Foul Play. Parafusion isn't offensive enough to have enough kick to really defeat Pokemon. It's the addition of Foul Play that's the issue, as it allows said Parafusion Pokemon to deal massive damage to other Pokemon. If we say "No Swagger + Foul Play" the strategy loses its teeth, and no longer is it going to impact people as strongly. Klefki isn't going to be staying in on Lando-T or Garchomp if it doesn't have Foul play.

After thinking a bit, this post makes a lot of sense.

If swagger + foul play were not allowed on the same set, the strategy would not be allowed to simultaneously play in both a defensive and offensive manner. This solution still allows for the strategy to be used (bring another pokemon in that has Foul Play after using swagger + thunder wave with your prankster) but it hampers it's effectiveness greatly by removing the offensive capabilities on otherwise defensive pokemon.

I am in favor of the complex ban of swagger + foul play on the same pokemon. This truly does the least harm.

 

[Alejandro36]

If they hit themselves, you can Paralize or simple Substitute, if him switch you get a free turn, you doesn't need many luck if you enemy only has less than a 40% chance to break you sub during two or three turns.

You have obviously never played prankster (or against) if you think making the oponent hit himself the first turn basically guarantees killing the pokemon, like geting it with an OHKO does.

 

[Jatul]

The problem with swag play is that everything is vulnerable to it, while ground and electric types can get around the para portion of this strategy due to an immunity to T-wave/paralysis respectively, The only two pokemon I think that are really a good counter to this strategy would be numel and quagsire, numel with the ability own tempo and being a ground type makes this strategy null and void, while quagsire with an immunity to T-wave and it's amazing ability unaware negates it's own boosts when being hit by foul play, allowing you to outstall the opponent. The problem being that these are really the only two true counters which is unhealthy for the meta game.

 

[Haru Piro]

You have obviously never played prankster (or against) if you think making the oponent hit himself the first turn basically guarantees killing the pokemon, like geting it with an OHKO does.

I did it, like of 37 wins with a skilless strategy on the uber ladder until i get bored.

 

[CarbonTheSecond]

And you just win if the oponent hits himself once?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Asuming your pokemon doesn't get OHKOed and it is able to fire the OHKO move first thanks to the scarf, a bulky scarfer has a 60% chance of outright killing the other pokemon. It will win more than half of the time. Something like gillotine gliscor could win most of the time against physical attackers very easily, and something super bulky like snorlax would also get several shots at killing special attacker with fissure. And almost every pokemon you would switch in would have a 30% chance of dying. Are you seriously saying that a team based around abusing OHKOs would be less OP than a prankster team?

The things you guys come up with, really.

Wait, this is coming from the guy who just suggested that a team of 6 scarfed OHKO move users might be "OP" because it could theoretically beat one playstyle? Dude, you're pushing a hypothetical situation WAY too far.

In any case, it seems that you're suggesting that the OHKO clause was put in place to stop a strategy which unbalanced the metagame. And that's just completely false. Hopefully this quote from the Gen 5 OHKO clause policy review thread should clear one or two things up:

I voted yes [w. regard to implementing the OHKO clause] because we're pushing competitive battling, meaning that the best players should win. Without OHKO clause, the good players will lose to the most random noobs running fissure. The chances of it working aren't high but if we are pushing competitive pokemon where players are supposed to benefit (through wins) from their knowledge and understanding of the game, why would we include such an equalizer when it's so easy to take away?
Source: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vote-ohko-clause.81486/#post-3086304

Alright, so now that we've established that OHKO moves were banned for being uncompetitive as opposed to being "OP," as you put it, what does that say about our approach to Prankster Swagplay? Well, turning games into a series of coinflips doesn't seem competitive at all. So, if we're using the example of banning OHKO moves as a precedent, then it only seems logical to handle this case the same way. Capice?

 

[Draws-stuff]

Oh look, this conversation is still going on.

Lets bring up some more points that I originally didn't mention, shall we?

Safeguard prevents status
Aromatisse has the ability Aroma Veil which completely kills confusion and foulplay is resisted. This Pokemon, given that fact, can whittle their hp down as they spend subs or get destroyed by moonblast
Disregard that, I suck cocks.
If you use a special attacker and put 0 in ivs under attack, they cant do damage for shit
Natural Cure is a great counter, they can par you all you want and yet when you switch, not only do you get rid of confusion and swagger boosts, but you get rid of the par too.
Limber completely negates thunderwave.
Electric types are immune to thunderwave.
Ground types cant be para'd.
Taunt can ruin an entire team. Sound based moves and multihit moves along with infiltrator cant ruin the entire team.
Not to mention magic bounce and syncronise can destroy the entire team. Mental herb and lum berry can open up a free opportunity to kill.
The Pokemon can snap out of confusion on the first time and sweep
The Pokemon can have own tempo on Pokemon even as abundant as Smeargle.
Pranksters kill other pranksters with ease.
Switching gets rid of confusion.
Any bulky Pokemon with low attack can cause a Pokemon to stall out and struggle.
Heracross is an excellent counter given that you don't hit yourself. It 4X resists foulplay, has access to mega horn and if that doesn't tickle your fancy, mega pin missile is a good way to not only do super effective against purrlion, liepard, sableye and other dark types, its a multihit move so it passes through subs (Plus the fact that skill link lets it hit 5 times in a row).
Sylveon is an AMAZING counter, with low attack, and fairy typing it can not only effectively resist foulplay but it HAS ACESS TO PIXELATE + HYPER VOICE, RENDERING SUBS USLESS AND PASSING THROUGH SUBS TO KILL NOT ONLY THE POKEMON HERACROSS CAN, BUT MURKROW INCLUDED.
I've said it before, but INFILTRATOR.
Priority moves if you out speed, if not, par them, then they no longer out speed in priority
Knock off takes away leftovers, soon they'll run out of hp for subs, leaving them vulnerable.
Whismicott not only resists with fairy typing, but it ALSO has
prankster, giving it the power to possibly outspeed (if not, whim can par them), sap their hp with leech seed AND get behind a sub so swagger and thunderwave cant hit it, along with the fact that foulplay and poor attack makes it hard to get past.
Substitutes get rid of the problem of para and swagger.
Hazards can take their hp to dangerously low levels.
Toxic spikes limit's Purrlion and Liepard's time on the field
Confuse a Prankster, watch the fun!

I think I'll stop there. Banning something beacuse you think its annoying (or god forbid you carry taunt not my single move slot no!) is Smogoning out. The same deal with funbro, if you start to struggle, you lost, if he wanted, he could let you die and it would be gg, but he's doing it to carry on, which means a forfeit isn't going to do any difference. Funbro is also destroyed and countered by special attackers and ghost types but who needs to switch on the turn it comes out anyway?

There's alot of reasons I dont like Smogon, this is one of them. The moment you ban it, the moment it effects everyone because everyone follows your rules.

 

[Ajwf]

For reference:

That color was awful
Hera-mega doesn't 4x resist foul play... 2x, bug only HITS dark SE.
Apparently as above, confusion isn't stopped on Aromatise... not that it's any good...
Prankster doesn't do anything to damaging moves
That color was awful.

You're not helping anyone's case, especially not your own.

 

[Sinning]

Last post, and then I'm done.

If we ban luck based things such as minimize/double team and OHKO moves, then we must, in some form, ban swag play as well, even if only for consistency's sake.

Turning the game into a series of coin flips does not promote actual gameplay, and regardless of whether this is the dominant strategy or not, it should not be part of a fair and competitive metagame. While hax is a thing, and always will be, swag play is not hax. Rather, it is one player abusing the mechanics of confusion and paralysis, combined with defensive pokemon (namely klefki) and also being able to play very offensively through the use of foul play.

The swag play strategy allows defensive pokemon to be incredibly offensive while also denying the opponent their turn. Unfair, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. If Smogon is truly about making pokemon as competitive as possible, it will ban swag play in some form. Also, it would be just silly to have rules that are not uniform (banning OHKO moves and evasion but not swag play).

 

[noobcubed]

"Aroma Veil protects the Pokémon with this Ability and its allies from the effects of Taunt, Torment, Encore, Disable, Heal Block and Attract." Not confusion.

Way to pick on the least significant of 100 flaws in that post...

But the most damning one for me is this, where, sadly, any remaining credibility vanished:

"There's alot of reasons I dont like Smogon, this is one of them. The moment you ban it, the moment it effects everyone because everyone follows your rules."

Who is this "you"? Are you not a member of Smogon yourself? Is this not a public forum where anyone can influence decisions? The rules are "our" rules, that we decide as a community, and that we also follow. That sounds to me like the best deal you could possibly get while still having everyone following the same rules.

 

[Lee]

As I said earlier, the complex ban is too broad. If you're going complex then you may as well go all the way and nail the precise problem. We neglected to do this with Aldaron's proposal and ended up banning Beartric, Floatzel, Qwilfish and other non-broken 'mons out of sheer laziness/time constraints. It was a regret many expressed at the end of Gen V.

For example, I sometimes like to use Encore/Leech Seed/U-turn/Swagger Whimsicott in combination with Ditto. It's not an unskilled, luck-based playstyle; it's quite the opposite. I'll often sac Whimsi against a threatening physical sweeper, putting it up to +2 and then countersweeping out of nowhere with Ditto. Confusion is an afterthought, I was looking solely to boost the foe's attack. No other move can do this (Flatter, I guess) and it's an interesting application of a unique move (as is the Foul Play synergy). Broken? No. Luck-based? No. Banworthy? No, but it's gonna get caught in the crossfire.

 

[NeonNinja96]

Last post, and then I'm done.

If we ban luck based things such as minimize/double team and OHKO moves, then we must, in some form, ban swag play as well, even if only for consistency's sake.

Turning the game into a series of coin flips does not promote actual gameplay, and regardless of whether this is the dominant strategy or not, it should not be part of a fair and competitive metagame. While hax is a thing, and always will be, swag play is not hax. Rather, it is one player abusing the mechanics of confusion and paralysis, combined with defensive pokemon (namely klefki) and also being able to play very offensively through the use of foul play.

The swag play strategy allows defensive pokemon to be incredibly offensive while also denying the opponent their turn. Unfair, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. If Smogon is truly about making pokemon as competitive as possible, it will ban swag play in some form. Also, it would be just silly to have rules that are not uniform (banning OHKO moves and evasion but not swag play).

I must agree with sinning here, this forum has became a fuckfest of angry 12 year olds and trolls. My proposal still remains constant, that a sort of "SwagPlay Clause" be implemented, acting the same way as endless battle clause, banning all pranksterswag movesets. Goodbye.

 

[KztxL7]

Oh look, this conversation is still going on.

Lets bring up some more points that I originally didn't mention, shall we?

Safeguard prevents status
Aromatisse has the ability Aroma Veil which completely kills confusion and foulplay is resisted. This Pokemon, given that fact, can whittle their hp down as they spend subs or get destroyed by moonblast
If you use a special attacker and put 0 in ivs under attack, they cant do damage for shit
Natural Cure is a great counter, they can par you all you want and yet when you switch, not only do you get rid of confusion and swagger boosts, but you get rid of the par too.
Limber completely negates thunderwave.
Electric types are immune to thunderwave.
Ground types cant be para'd.
Taunt can ruin an entire team. Sound based moves and multihit moves along with infiltrator cant ruin the entire team.
Not to mention magic bounce and syncronise can destroy the entire team. Mental herb and lum berry can open up a free opportunity to kill.
The Pokemon can snap out of confusion on the first time and sweep
The Pokemon can have own tempo on Pokemon even as abundant as Smeargle.
Pranksters kill other pranksters with ease.
Switching gets rid of confusion.
Any bulky Pokemon with low attack can cause a Pokemon to stall out and struggle.
Heracross is an excellent counter given that you don't hit yourself. It 4X resists foulplay, has access to mega horn and if that doesn't tickle your fancy, mega pin missile is a good way to not only do super effective against purrlion, liepard, sableye and other dark types, its a multihit move so it passes through subs (Plus the fact that skill link lets it hit 5 times in a row).
Sylveon is an AMAZING counter, with low attack, and fairy typing it can not only effectively resist foulplay but it HAS ACESS TO PIXELATE + HYPER VOICE, RENDERING SUBS USLESS AND PASSING THROUGH SUBS TO KILL NOT ONLY THE POKEMON HERACROSS CAN, BUT MURKROW INCLUDED.
I've said it before, but INFILTRATOR.
Priority moves if you out speed, if not, par them, then they no longer out speed in priority
Knock off takes away leftovers, soon they'll run out of hp for subs, leaving them vulnerable.
Whismicott not only resists with fairy typing, but it ALSO has
prankster, giving it the power to possibly outspeed (if not, whim can par them), sap their hp with leech seed AND get behind a sub so swagger and thunderwave cant hit it, along with the fact that foulplay and poor attack makes it hard to get past.
Substitutes get rid of the problem of para and swagger.
Hazards can take their hp to dangerously low levels.
Toxic spikes limit's Purrlion and Liepard's time on the field
Confuse a Prankster, watch the fun!

I think I'll stop there. Banning something beacuse you think its annoying (or god forbid you carry taunt not my single move slot no!) is Smogoning out. The same deal with funbro, if you start to struggle, you lost, if he wanted, he could let you die and it would be gg, but he's doing it to carry on, which means a forfeit isn't going to do any difference. Funbro is also destroyed and countered by special attackers and ghost types but who needs to switch on the turn it comes out anyway?

There's alot of reasons I dont like Smogon, this is one of them. The moment you ban it, the moment it effects everyone because everyone follows your rules.

Lets go over your points.

1) How to use Safeguard before getting Confused/Paralyzed by Prankster Swagger?
2) Already proven that Aroma Veil doesn't block Confusion.
3) 0 IVs in a Special Attacker. Sure. They'll still get their HP worn down from Foul Play/Confusion Self Damage/Hazards.
4) Hazards and Smart Players will be using Attacks on your switches. Wearing you down.
5) Doesn't stop confusion. How many OU Viable Pokemon use Limber anyway outside of non-Imposter Dittos (lol).
6) Electric Types aren't Immune to COnfusion
7) Ground Types aren't Immune to Confusion
8) Sure. You'll taunt before Prankster? Right?
9) Magic Bouncers all get wrecked by Foul Play. Synchronize doesn't reflect back Confusion. Lum Berry and Mental Herb work ONCE and no one is going to put them on every pokemon to fight against a single strategy.
10) Luck Based.
11) Very Few OU Viable Pokemon have use Own Tempo or will use it over their much better and not restrictive abilities. (Slowbro).
12) Defeats the purpose.
13) Hazards and getting hit constantly on Switches. Try again.
14) So basically luck based stall.
15) You defeated yourself in your first sentance on Heracross.
16) So everyone run Sylveon. Got it.
17) So basically miniature version of Gen 5 weather wars.
18) Knock Off doesn't have priority. Gets Confused/Paralyzed first.
19) Once again, defeats the purpose with the Prankster beat Prankster thing.
20) Substitute lacks priority.
21) If they're switching, but they'll most likely be making YOU switch because of Confusion.
22) Doesn't work on Klefki or Thundurus. Oh well.
23) So beat Confusion with Confusion.

Facepalm.

If you don't like Smogon. Leave.

Ban it doesn't affect everyone because not everyone follows Smogon rules. What is wrong with you?

 

[Jukain]

But not overpowered. And thats the entire point. Smogon (until now) bans things because they are OP, not just because they are luck reliant, much less because a bunch of people find them annoying.

No. OP is only one component of banning. There are also Evasion, OHKO, and Moody clauses that cover uncompetitive components of the game. Is Evasion good? No, it's a bad strategy. Are OHKO moves a good strat? No. But can they allow worse players to beat better players, and do they turn the game into a coinflip? Hell yes, and so does Swagger. That's why it should be banned.

 

[CarbonTheSecond]

Oh look, this conversation is still going on.

Lets bring up some more points that I originally didn't mention, shall we?

Safeguard prevents status
Aromatisse has the ability Aroma Veil which completely kills confusion and foulplay is resisted. This Pokemon, given that fact, can whittle their hp down as they spend subs or get destroyed by moonblast
If you use a special attacker and put 0 in ivs under attack, they cant do damage for shit
Natural Cure is a great counter, they can par you all you want and yet when you switch, not only do you get rid of confusion and swagger boosts, but you get rid of the par too.
Limber completely negates thunderwave.
Electric types are immune to thunderwave.
Ground types cant be para'd.
Taunt can ruin an entire team. Sound based moves and multihit moves along with infiltrator cant ruin the entire team.
Not to mention magic bounce and syncronise can destroy the entire team. Mental herb and lum berry can open up a free opportunity to kill.
The Pokemon can snap out of confusion on the first time and sweep
The Pokemon can have own tempo on Pokemon even as abundant as Smeargle.
Pranksters kill other pranksters with ease.
Switching gets rid of confusion.
Any bulky Pokemon with low attack can cause a Pokemon to stall out and struggle.
Heracross is an excellent counter given that you don't hit yourself. It 4X resists foulplay, has access to mega horn and if that doesn't tickle your fancy, mega pin missile is a good way to not only do super effective against purrlion, liepard, sableye and other dark types, its a multihit move so it passes through subs (Plus the fact that skill link lets it hit 5 times in a row).
Sylveon is an AMAZING counter, with low attack, and fairy typing it can not only effectively resist foulplay but it HAS ACESS TO PIXELATE + HYPER VOICE, RENDERING SUBS USLESS AND PASSING THROUGH SUBS TO KILL NOT ONLY THE POKEMON HERACROSS CAN, BUT MURKROW INCLUDED.
I've said it before, but INFILTRATOR.
Priority moves if you out speed, if not, par them, then they no longer out speed in priority
Knock off takes away leftovers, soon they'll run out of hp for subs, leaving them vulnerable.
Whismicott not only resists with fairy typing, but it ALSO has
prankster, giving it the power to possibly outspeed (if not, whim can par them), sap their hp with leech seed AND get behind a sub so swagger and thunderwave cant hit it, along with the fact that foulplay and poor attack makes it hard to get past.
Substitutes get rid of the problem of para and swagger.
Hazards can take their hp to dangerously low levels.
Toxic spikes limit's Purrlion and Liepard's time on the field
Confuse a Prankster, watch the fun!

I think I'll stop there. Banning something beacuse you think its annoying (or god forbid you carry taunt not my single move slot no!) is Smogoning out. The same deal with funbro, if you start to struggle, you lost, if he wanted, he could let you die and it would be gg, but he's doing it to carry on, which means a forfeit isn't going to do any difference. Funbro is also destroyed and countered by special attackers and ghost types but who needs to switch on the turn it comes out anyway?

There's alot of reasons I dont like Smogon, this is one of them. The moment you ban it, the moment it effects everyone because everyone follows your rules.

Holy shit, man, ease up on the formatting. You're not going to convince anyone of anything when you're using bold/underlining/color that's straight off a terrible 90s website. In any case, Verlisify Jr., listing off ways to stop Swagplay (which mostly cover just one individual aspect of the issue) is all well and nice, but by suggesting that people should actively incorporate these counter-strategies into their teams (or else!), you're basically suggesting we change the entire singles metagame to match one particular tactic which, as you well know, is almost entirely based on luck. Now, I'd like to bring you back to the main idea of what we, as Smogon, are trying to accomplish with bans: we're trying to encourage the growth of the competitive pokemon community (Ace Emerald described this pretty well an a recent video for the YT channel). By allowing a strategy like Swagplay, which is inherently uncompetitive, we're basically shooting ourselves in the foot in that regard. To conclude, I'd just like to address one last point you made; that you don't like Smogon. It's your opinion, and while I don't particularly care for it or care about it, that's fine. After all, we don't particularly like your kind either. ^^

 

[Sykikal]

I've always hated confusion ever since generation 1, and Foul Play/Prankster just made it that much worse. I'd be in favor of just banning Swagger, Confuse Ray, and Flatter altogether under a Confusion Clause in the same way that Double Team and Minimize are banned.

It's completely luck based just like Double Team, and there are very few reliable ways to guard against it. At least with Double Team there are a lot of moves that always hit like Aura Sphere. There are so few Pokemon with own tempo that are viable in competitive play.

 

[ColtCababa]

I'd be in favor of the Ability, Prankster, combined with a set consisting of a Confusion status move and Foul Play eradicated from the standard metagame for the least, granted that, as previously stated, they're primarily luck-based.

 

[Exxodus]

If a complex ban is going to be in place, I believe banning the moves Swagger and Foul Play on the same set should be what is banned. You are only allowed to run one or the other. It literally eliminates "Sawgplay". Foul Play is a fantastic move to reliably check physical sweepers. Swagger can be some what good until your opponent snaps out of confusion and is sitting with a +2 Garchomp. There is absolutely no reason for a Prankster user to run Swagger without Foul Play to "try to get free subs". You're better off trying to get a free sub off a paralysis than a confusion.
TL;DR: Ban Swagger and Foul Play on the same pokemon.

 

[TaBuu]

I'm not pointing fingers at any particular individuals so don't get all fired up. But I'd honestly like to bring Draws-stuff's post into attention. Again, I don't mean to single you out, but you seem like one of the few people on the pro-SwagPlay who have a decent enough brain to post decent arguments.

Many of the pro-ban advocates fail to recognize the true reason and motive behind the potential SwagPlay ban. You guys keep on arguing that SwagPlay is a playstyle that can be played around with the appropriate counters and answers (albeit, very niche and non-OU viable in many aspects. Let's be honest, nobody should or wants to run Mental Herb on their Garchomp alongside Oblivious Slowbro).

Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause and Moody Clause (to an extent) can be argued in a very similar fashion.
Substitute, Focus Sash and Sturdy can manage to play around OHKO moves.
Defog, Aerial Ace, Aura Sphere, Lock-On and Foresight beat out Evasion moves such as Double Team and Minimize while changing the current weather can eliminate Sand Veil and Snow Cloak.
Moody can be played around by either KOing the Pokemon with Moody or using a phazing move.

So why aren't we implementing Fissure, Sand Veil and Moody Smeargle into the OU metagame?
Because any low-leveled player can utilize these luck-oriented playstyles and possess a very real chance of winning matches vs other competitive players. Using team archetypes and strategies that fish for luck constantly defeat the purpose of playing a competitive strategy game.

Honestly there have been many excellent posts regarding the true motive behind a potential SwagPlay ban such as Jukain's recent post. Yet you guys keep avoiding it and keep listing us how to beat SwagPlay which is not the main issue here.
If you guys want SwagPlay to stay, convince us how SwagPlay is a competitive and strategic playstyle that does not transform a competitive Pokemon match into a complete coin-flip scenario.

 

[Okuu]

meow

I hate to be this type of person, but there are far more aspects of this game that technically devolve into coin-flips and dice-rolls.

* Zap Cannon, Inferno, and Dynamicpunch are 50% accuracy, 120 BP (Inferno is 100) moves that inflict guaranteed Paralysis / Burn / Confusion (respectively) upon landing the move.
* Paralysis / Confusion / Attract are all statuses that trigger 50% of the time.
* The randomized chance for Confusion / Freeze to wear out.
* Criticals.
* Any move that determines its effect randomly, such as Metronome and Present.
* Any move that has a sub-100% accuracy, or has a sub-100% chance of performing some sort of action.
* Randomized ranges for damaging moves.
* The opponent that you are matched up with.

I love the fact that there are so many aspects of this game that you can directly affect. Which Pokemon you use, which moves you use on them, which items you use on them, which moves you select in battle, when and when not to switch out, and so much more. It really lends itself to be quite the strategic game. However, there are other aspects of the game that are beyond your control. It's quite possible for an opponent's attack to knock you down to 24% health and trigger your Salac Berry in one game, and for that same attack to knock you down to 26% health and not trigger it in the next. A single Thunder Wave can lock an opponent down for 5 straight turns in one game, and completely fail to stop another opponent. And of course, we have the time honored classics like Stone Miss and Focus Miss, as well as our beloved critical hits. To put it simply, chance has always been a big part of this game; too big to simply remove.

 

[Slayer95]

In that case can you give a specific example of an offensive Pokemon that is therefore reliably kept in check by the presence of Swagger and Confusion moves? I don't think there is one.

I don't think anybody is going "yeah I'll run a Swagger / Foul Play / Thunder Wave team because it keeps xyz in check". They're saying "yeah I'll use this strategy because over the course of like 3-5 turns the odds are with me to gain an advantage using these moves and then I have a really good chance to win unless they have this incredibly niche Pokemon that is completely useless in every other scenario".

Checks are per definition not reliable. Since Swagger checks highly offensive pokemon, its influence is globally beneficial on the metagame by balancing it.

 

[Ryolain]

I hate to be this type of person, but there are far more aspects of this game that technically devolve into coin-flips and dice-rolls.

* Zap Cannon, Inferno, and Dynamicpunch are 50% accuracy, 120 BP (Inferno is 100) moves that inflict guaranteed Paralysis / Burn / Confusion (respectively) upon landing the move.
* Paralysis / Confusion / Attract are all statuses that trigger 50% of the time.
* The randomized chance for Confusion / Freeze to wear out.
* Criticals.
* Any move that determines its effect randomly, such as Metronome and Present.
* Any move that has a sub-100% accuracy, or has a sub-100% chance of performing some sort of action.
* Randomized ranges for damaging moves.
* The opponent that you are matched up with.

I love the fact that there are so many aspects of this game that you can directly affect. Which Pokemon you use, which moves you use on them, which items you use on them, which moves you select in battle, when and when not to switch out, and so much more. It really lends itself to be quite the strategic game. However, there are other aspects of the game that are beyond your control. It's quite possible for an opponent's attack to knock you down to 24% health and trigger your Salac Berry in one game, and for that same attack to knock you down to 26% health and not trigger it in the next. A single Thunder Wave can lock an opponent down for 5 straight turns in one game, and completely fail to stop another opponent. And of course, we have the time honored classics like Stone Miss and Focus Miss, as well as our beloved critical hits. To put it simply, chance has always been a big part of this game; too big to simply remove.

A) Half that stuff is completely irrelevant in OU/competitive play in general (Metronome? Really?)
B) Most of these things have a higher or even percent chance of success vs. failure, which is not true of Paralysis + Confusion. The odds are heavily swayed against the person who is Paralyzed and Confused. The chances of a critical hit are not high enough that you can base an entire Poke or team strategy around them (unless it's crit abuse on something like Kingdra, but that strategy is far from broken given who it's available to). While those elements of chance do exist, they are not individually abusable to the extent that a strong player will frequently lose a match against a weak player just due to one badly timed crit or Focus Blast miss. Yeah, it does happen, but the odds are not so heavily swung in favor of the weaker/non-skilled player like they are with a weak player that uses a SwagPlay team.

 

[Ryolain]

Checks are per definition not reliable. Since Swagger checks highly offensive pokemon, its influence is globally beneficial on the metagame by balancing it.

I guarantee you 100% that no one who runs a SwagPlay team is doing it with the intention of balancing the metagame against offensive threats. Don't act like that ever crosses anyone's mind.

 

[blazeVA]

Tabuu: If it's something that would rile people up by singling people out, don't say it as a general thing. It tends to make matters worse. I'm not ticked off, not in the slightest, but other people might and in general some civility and respect is a good thing.

I think I need to make this post, cause it appears that while I've been posting I haven't exactly made my position known. I'm fairly ambivalent on what should happen with SwagPlay. On one hand, I do see the argument that the 45/55 coin flip can be unfair and throws "skill" away from the game. That's understandable. I can also see the argument in diversifying the metagame and allowing for new strategies other than aggro forever. On one hand, I've had my share of frustrations and anger having to battle the set. I've lost Blissey(it's possible!) to the set because of consecutive turns of paralysis hax. On the other hand, I've trampeled over Klefki with Conkeldurr and giggled to myself. I've battled Swagplay teams, and raged over it, and have won/loss against them. I'm pretty much neutral, I won't care either why whether its banned, limited, semi-limited, or not. If I was given the decision, I would ban the combination of Swagger and Foul Play. The difference between confusion, and evasion/OHKO is that while it is ALL a coinflip, confusion is far less effective on its own. The set would die if Foul Play was disallowed on it. Isn't this set what is causing people to go "lol no swagger"? Wouldn't killing this set effectively stop the use of confusion except by new and bad comp players? Maybe that's just a bandaid cause who knows what CrackFreak is going to bring out next, but I don't see the need to be this extreme when its not something that's omnipresent except in one set.

 

[Ryin]

To put it simply, chance has always been a big part of this game; too big to simply remove.

And this has never been the purpose of this topic and as far as I'm aware there were no serious topics about banning crits, non perfect accuracy moves and the like.
The thing is, when you use SwagPlay you make the luck factor a lot more apparent and more often than not you make -every- turn a coin flip, add Thunder Wave to that and you have a weighted coin to do those. There is a reason you don't see Zap Cannon, Inferno and non No Guard Dynamic Punch anywhere in the meta.

 

[KztxL7]

* Zap Cannon, Inferno, and Dynamicpunch are 50% accuracy, 120 BP (Inferno is 100) moves that inflict guaranteed Paralysis / Burn / Confusion (respectively) upon landing the move.
* Paralysis / Confusion / Attract are all statuses that trigger 50% of the time.
* The randomized chance for Confusion / Freeze to wear out.
* Criticals.
* Any move that determines its effect randomly, such as Metronome and Present.
* Any move that has a sub-100% accuracy, or has a sub-100% chance of performing some sort of action.
* Randomized ranges for damaging moves.
* The opponent that you are matched up with.

Swagger + Prankster is forcing your opponent into a coinflip scenario.

-Zap Cannon, Inferno and Dynamic Punch all have incredibly low accuracy and are only used with No Guard. In other words, only Dynamic Punch is used in conjuction with No Guard. Only Machamp. If you are attempting this without accuracy boosting, it is a self inflicted luck.
-Attract only works on things of opposite Gender. Not reliable. Paralysis works 25% of the time. Electric Types are Immune and Ground Types are immune to the most common way of inflicting it.
-True
-Criticals can happen on anything. There is no avoiding it or choosing it unless you use the 100% Critical Hit moves. Swagger/Flatter/Confuse Ray immediately put your opponent into the confuse state (unless you're unlucky and miss the 3 moves) and force a 50/50 situation upon success.
-Metronome? Present? What next? Slurpuff countering Mega Kangaskhan?
-Anything under 100% accuracy is a choice of the player for higher reward. Prankster+Swagger is not.
-Magnitude....really?
-....what?

We know luck is a part of Pokemon. For goodness sake this has been stated so many times. The problem with Prankster+Swagger is forcing the game into nothing but coinflips.