OU Sword and Shield OU Discussion Thread

[sequoia]

I’d argue zama was much less broken pre body press and the gen 8 tier offers more viable checks against it like slowbro, buzzwole, pex, aegislash, volc. Not to mention its checks that already exist in gen 9 like lando or torn of clef

Click to collapse...

Not having Body Press doesn't really matter when Body Press is the easiest Zamazenta set to answer. The hard sets to answer are the offensive ones, which in SS have permanent Dauntless Shield and 130 Attack. SS also lacks Gholdengo, Pecharunt, Tera Ghost / Fairy, Alomomola, Gliscor, Iron Moth, Iron Valiant, viable Weezing to name a few. FuturePort is also more potent in SS than in SV so even the stuff that checks it in both tiers is worse at checking it.

I think it’s possible that zam-h can add some offense to the tier but at the very least it can generate some interest.

Click to collapse...

Zama-H singlehandedly invalidates most offense teams currently in the metagame and a major reason that Zama-C was banned was because it had an oppressive matchup into a lot of offense teams.

 

[samohi0]

First off, the comparison with gen 9 feels fairly irrelevant to me considering that both zamazentas got Body Press in gen 9, which allowed them to run the Iron Defense sets we see in SVOU. Zamazenta's superior typing and higher defense which, I'm assuming is what made it better than its hero counterpart in SVOU, isn't nearly as valuable in SSOU where neither of them learn Body Press.
Therefore, the idea that Zama-h would be weaker than Zama-C because such is the case in SV is flawed in my humble opinion.

We can both agree that both zamazentas were a lot weaker pre body press. That's about everything I personnally agree with though.
Briefly going through some of the checks you mentioned, assuming that zamazenta managed to get a single Howl (which let's be real, wouldn't be difficult)

+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 344-406 (87.3 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Clef is not a check + you could run stuff like expert belt and OHKO. Here is what clef deals in return:
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 312-368 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ebelt is a 90% chance to OHKO. What do you do in return? Toxic if you have it, EQ deals 30%

Buzzwole is a very awkward check, assuming no psychic fangs means that it needs to be running toxic to deal with Zama-H comfortably, otherwise having to click weird close combats to deal anything significant (still doesn't 2hko).

Aegislash is not nearly common enough and is still not the most reliable (no reliable recovery, +1 crunch with ebelt has a 40% chance to ohko uninvested Aegislash, and not even specs can ohko without clicking steel beam of all moves.

Slowking-galar:
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Slowking-Galar: 310-366 (78.8 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Slowking-Galar: 372-439 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Expert Belt Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Slowking-Galar: 408-482 (103.8 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As for Tornadus:
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tornadus-Therian: 354-418 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tornadus-Therian: 230-272 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tornadus-Therian: 318-376 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

What you deal in return (assuming you don't miss a 70% accuracy move too)
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 228-270 (70.1 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Volcarona and Slowbro can probably do fine.

Keep in mind that all of these calcs assume that there are no hazards whatsoever on the battlefield, and are for zama-h's that would run heavy duty boots (most likely set in my opinion) or leftovers. That is also without mentioning the inevitable adamant sets that will greatly improve these rolls without requiring the help of an offensive item.

My point being, that a lot of your so called checks get absolutely bodied by howl zamazenta variations, or by a not so difficult prediction on the banded one (not so difficult in the sense that with such as ridiculous bulk, failing your prediction and getting hit definitely isn't the end of the world.) Furthermore, this bulk also means that it is awfully difficult to revenge kill, taking the tapus as examples since you mentioned them (mostly Fini and Koko since Lele does kill (scarf moonblast is still a roll), and Bulu well, its Bulu.:

252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 222-264 (68.3 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 188-224 (57.8 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Little bonus:
Dragapult: 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 235-277 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



It's not a hyperbole, and what you heard isn't stupid, you are just missing the point. The problem is not that Zama-H can run an item and Zama-C can't.
The problem is that Zama-H being able to run an item makes it A LOT more dangerous than Zama-C.

Taking your Salamence example, Mega salamence being banned in SMOU has nothing to do with whether or not it can run an item, it is banned because it is too strong, that's all. Regular Salamence is legal in SMOU, not because it can run an item or something, but because it isn't as strong as its mega counterpart. The important factor isn't the item slot, it's the pokemon's overall strength. Calling a statement stupid isn't the best look when it turns out that you just misunderstood it in the first place so let's try to keep the little talks we still have on this thread kinda civil?



The one question I really want to ask you is the same as GarchomFan asked before me: why ?

From what I remember, part of the reasoning for the Zama-C suspect was that it could function as a solid knock off absorber as well as a check to some pokemon which included the problematic Kyurem, and others such as Weavile, Kartana, Tornadus, Rillaboom...

Now what would be the reasoning to add Zama-H ? Putting aside discussions regarding whether or not it would be broken, what currently needs "fixing" ?
The metagame has stabilized, kyurem is banned, and I don't think a lot of people view the mons I mentioned as particularly overwhelming ? Zama-H also does not have this unique property of being immune to knock off removing its item (or to trick I guess). To "add some offense" is a very vague idea, and in my opinion, an incorrect one, as I would expect it to be particularly strong against offense itself due to its ability to easily trade against offense staples, and the possibility of running a choice scarf set that could literally outspeed the entire metagame and be a nightmare for offensive-minded squads (akin to what scarf urshifu can currently do).

To me, even under the assumption that it would somehow not be broken (which I do not believe a single bit), adding Zama-H to SSOU would not provide anything of value to the tier that would be worth risking the current stability of the metagame.

Click to collapse...

You listed 5 different coverage moves in your post, many mons can beat all its checks on paper but in practice it’s a different beast. None of us know the kind of affect zam will have on the meta, and since gen 8 is the most “balanced” meta i don’t see why some kind of stress test would hurt it, or ruin the enjoyment for the total of 0 gen 8 battles going on in the ladder. You think scarf would be broken because of its speed tier I think scarf would suck because it can’t break anything, your afraid of expert belt I think there’s a reason no mons run it. I think it would be an excellent offensive mon that would allow a surge in offensive playstyles. People aren’t wrong that it would also slot well into balance but balance is already king it’s not going to become more king. I’ve only been around a couple generations but one thing I’ve seen repeatedly are mons that people swear up and down would absolutely destroy the metagame and they have some big scary calcs to show it off and than the mon comes out and it falls on its face. It vary well may be broken but I think a strong fighting type would be a welcome addition to the future sight gen. There’s only one

 

[ILoveGarchom]

You listed 5 different coverage moves in your post, many mons can beat all its checks on paper but in practice it’s a different beast. None of us know the kind of affect zam will have on the meta. And since gen 8 is the most “balanced” meta i don’t see why some kind of stress test would hurt it, or ruin the enjoyment for the 0 gen 8 battles going on in the ladder. You think scarf would be broken because of its speed tier I think scarf would suck because it can’t break anything your afraid of expert belt I think there’s a reason no mons run it. I think it would be an excellent offensive mon that would allow a surge in offensive playstyles. People aren’t wrong that it would also slot well into balance but balance is already king it’s not going to become more king. I’ve only been around a couple generations but one thing I’ve seen repeatedly are mons that people swear up and down would absolutely destroy the metagame and they have some big scary calcs to show it off and than the mon comes out and it falls on its face. It vary well may be broken but I think a strong fighting type would be a welcome addition to the future sight gen.

Click to collapse...

Again, what will it add to the tier, we already have urshifu and buzzwole as fighters that abuse future sight. Zamazenta is not needed

 

[samohi0]

Again, what will it add to the tier, we already have urshifu and buzzwole as fighters that abuse future sight. Zamazenta is not needed

Click to collapse...

I’ll reiterate my main points for you.

1. It could allow for a healthy increase in presence for offensive playstyles

2. I don’t think it’s fit on balance could make the playstyle stronger than it already is

3. the unquestionably stronger version of it was already tested and received a fair amount of support with most people not finding it to strong for an unban but to bulky and well typed an issue alleviated by zama h

4. I think why not is often just as good of a reason as why. I’m not asking for it to be unbanned and then left in the tier forever. I’m asking why we can’t give it a look for a couple of weeks, gen 8 is going to exist as we know it until we’re all dead or pokemon showdown goes offline I’m asking for a month where we look at a potential addition to the game. If it’s deemed not healthy the thirty of us who care enough to vote will never have to think about it again this discussion thread can go back into hibernation and no harm will be done. Or we test it find out its an interesting addition to the meta and we all get to enjoy a revitalized version of a tier we all love.

5. Buzzwole walls it and I like buzzwole

I’m not saying it won’t be broken im
Saying let’s have one last great adventure in this tier

 

[igiveuponaname]

Unbaning zamazenta in SV was smogons biggest mistake cuz now it means we have to deal with fuckwit ideas of unbaninng bad Ubers just because

 

[YoruNoxx]

You listed 5 different coverage moves in your post, many mons can beat all its checks on paper but in practice it’s a different beast. None of us know the kind of affect zam will have on the meta. And since gen 8 is the most “balanced” meta i don’t see why some kind of stress test would hurt it, or ruin the enjoyment for the 0 gen 8 battles going on in the ladder. You think scarf would be broken because of its speed tier I think scarf would suck because it can’t break anything your afraid of expert belt I think there’s a reason no mons run it. I think it would be an excellent offensive mon that would allow a surge in offensive playstyles. People aren’t wrong that it would also slot well into balance but balance is already king it’s not going to become more king. I’ve only been around a couple generations but one thing I’ve seen repeatedly are mons that people swear up and down would absolutely destroy the metagame and they have some big scary calcs to show it off and than the mon comes out and it falls on its face. It vary well may be broken but I think a strong fighting type would be a welcome addition to the future sight gen.

Click to collapse...

Several points:
First one is actually valid, but the same way you cannot fit all moves, your opponent cannot know which ones you are running either, and that is typically the original dog, Zama-C got the banhammer after being tested.
If CC is always going to be there, you don't know if the coverage is going to be ice fang + crunch, or ice fang + slam, or Crunch + slam etc etc. Stone edge will likely be considered, hell even wild charge will be considered, and that I am not inventing out of nothing, since it is exactly a problem that was encountered during the Zama-C suspect test. To that, add the possibility of Zama-H running a variety of sets which were all Zama-C could only dream of, ie Banded, Scarf, chesto berry rest stuff, substitute (a few hp evs and zama's sub can literally live scald from bro/slowking/pex, what do you do if it just subs on the switch and starts setting up?). My initial point was not that Zamazenta Hero was an immortal being that would one shot the entire metagame. Instead, I am saying is that you have been framing all answers as some absolute counterplay which they clearly aren't, and completely ignoring the moveset diversity potential and actual damage output of the pokemon. You claim that I am using scary calcs, insinuating that they would be dishonest or inacurate, but then you still don't mention any revenge killing option, or any proper check aside from "He can't have them all". He doesn't need to have all moves, if your counterplay in a team is Lando + Clef, then he only needs to have slam and potentially ice fang (might not even need it that much tbh), and it will be unplayable.

Second point: I reiterate the question, why? You are pretty much saying that "it wouldn't hurt", but we aren't trying not to hurt, if changes happen, they should be meant to improve the metagame, and that won't happen if there isn't a more sound rational to suspecting the mon than simply "we want another fighting type in the tier". You claim that zamazenta would allow a "surge in offensive playstyle", despite 2 of answers to your post (sequoia's and mine) claiming, that it will do the exact opposite, except that we have provided arguments and reasons for it. If you genuinely believe that it will make the metagame more offensive, then it is up to you to explain why you think that would be better, and how it would happen. In other words, why should we believe that the impact would differ from zama-h's impact on the SVOU metagame, or Zama-C's on the SSOU metagame during the suspect test. Repeating that it will without providing any reason does not reinforce your points, it only makes it feel like you aren't actually reading, which I'm sure isn't the case, but then please, argue, tell us.

Third point: Please feel free to show me the moment where I said that scarf Zamazenta would be broken? As a matter of fact, I actually believe it would be far from the best set considering its already great speed tier. However, it is undeniable that scarf zama will be a scary threat to face for offense, that's all I said. And the expert belt point, does the ability to literally 1 shot several mons that you are unable to ohko otherwise not tempting? Just because no mon commonly uses expert belt doesn't mean that it won't change at all + Do note that we've seen plenty of Ebelt sets during SSOU's lifetime. Please try to make sure that your stance or answer cannot be summarized by simply "you are wrong, I actually don't believe it". I used the "big scary calcs" because I thought that they supported a point, namely that zama hits ridiculously hard and is abnormally tanky for such a fast pokemon. He hits hard, is a pain to kill, and a can only be outsped by Pult, Zeraora, and a few choice scarf pokemon aong which only tapu lele can actually ohko the dog. Feel free to tell me what counterplay I forgot, what revenge killer or check I failed to consider, etc. Accusing me of fearmongering doesn't undermine my points unless you actively do it yourself.

"Its not going to become more king"
I can hardly see why it couldn't but that's beside the point since I never said that it would "fit in balance" in the first place.

"I’ve only been around a couple generations but one thing I’ve seen repeatedly are mons that people swear up and down would absolutely destroy the metagame and they have some big scary calcs to show it off and than the mon comes out and it falls on its face"
We have a specific case at hand, and there is already a lot to say about it without pointing at some experience that has not statistical significance whatsoever. Yes people have been wrong about pokemon, but we are arguing whether or not this pokemon, in this specific setting, would be too strong. If your point is "well maybe you guys are wrong, people have been wrong before", it can only be interesting if you can back it up with some sort of substance as to why we might be incorrect.

Finally "a strong fighting type would be a welcome addition to the future sight gen."

Then again, why? Like really I keep repeating myself but you haven't answered this in neither of your posts. Why a fighting type? What for? Why this one? What is currently lacking that zamazenta can fix? Because it sure as well won't make offense stronger as you've stated previously


Edit since you posted another time before I posted myself

"1. It could allow for a healthy increase in presence for offensive playstyles"

Questionable statement in my opinion, that isn't backed by anything else than the fallacy of " more offensive pokemon means more offense"


"2. I don’t think it’s fit on balance could make the playstyle stronger than it already is"

I didn't see anyone argue this, and I don't believe it myself, though it could be a good speed control on some balance for sure. If we are talking about a future abuser though, I don't see how balance could ever be it's best playstyle when Bulky offense exists.


"3. the unquestionably stronger version of it was already tested and received a fair amount of support with most people not finding it to strong for an unban but to bulky and well typed an issue alleviated by zama h"

About 1 third of my first post was dedicated to breaking down the idea that Zama-C was, in fact, not the stronger version (why power balance in SV wasn't applicable to SS and the point about items), and I haven't seen you adress this point at all. You can't just dodge every counter argument and expect people to agree with you + You are severely oversimplifying the reasons as to why it wasn't unbanned. You should probably go through the suspect thread again to get a more accurate idea.


"4. I think why not is often just as good of a reason as why. I’m not asking for it to be unbanned and then left in the tier forever. I’m asking why we can’t give it a look for a couple of weeks, gen 8 is going to exist as we know it until we’re all dead or pokemon showdown goes offline I’m asking for a month where we look at a potential addition to the game. If it’s deemed not healthy the thirty of us who care enough to vote will never have to think about it again this discussion thread can go back into hibernation and no harm will be done. Or we test it find out its an interesting addition to the meta and we all get to enjoy a revitalized version of a tier we all love."

The SS ladder is absolutely dead, meaning that the only way to test it out will be through tournaments. Tournaments are meant to be competitive, and adding something for shits and giggles is a hindrance to every participants, especially when said thing is definitely going to be overpowered and the ensuing vote will turn out to be pointless and predictable (although I know you don't agree with the overpowered point).


"5. Buzzwole walls it and I like buzzwole"

I personnally really liked Single Strike Urshifu, and it is walled by buzzwole too ! *wink wink*

"Let's have one last great adventure"
With all due respect, no thanks, its not dead and doesn't need to be revived.
If you want to give it some more fun, adventures or whatever you want to give it, there are many very cool ways, such as helping out with the smogdex analyses, or getting involved in the circuit/team tournaments. Hell you could even organise your own gen 8 ou + zamazenta tournament on cord if you wanted to.

 

[samohi0]

Unbaning zamazenta in SV was smogons biggest mistake cuz now it means we have to deal with fuckwit ideas of unbaninng bad Ubers just because

Click to collapse...

asinine take crowned a stronger zama was already suspected down in gen 8 and kyurem black a box legendary was allowed in multiple ou’s. Also im not asking for an unban i just want a suspect for the less broken version of a mon that was already suspected down.

 

[sequoia]

asinine take crowned a stronger zama was already suspected down in gen 8

Click to collapse...

It got 75% Do Not Unban votes in a metagame that still had Kyurem, and even if you think Hero is worse than Crowned, it still has the item advantage as well as outrunning Koko

 

[samohi0]

"but the same way you cannot fit all moves, your opponent cannot know which ones you are running either,"

that's kinda part of Pokemon you figure out what kind of set the opponent is running and you counter play it. the sheer fact that it can't fit all its moves is all you need to know. there are many mons that can in theory beat all their checks but in practice struggle to cover enough things.

"To that, add the possibility of Zama-H running a variety of sets which were all Zama-C could only dream of, ie Banded, Scarf, chesto berry rest stuff, substitute (a few hp evs and zama's sub can literally live scald from bro/slowking/pex, what do you do if it just subs on the switch and starts setting up?)"

for example this hypothetical sub set you envision, it runs sub, cc, Howl? crunch?(I mean howl is awful but you said "start setting up") how does that fair into a more offensive team with thinks like koko, lucha, scarf lele, volc, hell even something like chomp. Resto Chesto is a fraud set for mons without reliable recovery dog only runs it because it pairs well with body press setup.

I think your argument of variety of sets actually lends itself to my side much better your band and scarf sets would struggle into the natural bulkiness of the tier while anti bulky sets would struggle into offense


About 1 third of my first post was dedicated to breaking down the idea that Zama-C was, in fact, not the stronger version (why power balance in SV wasn't applicable to SS and the point about items) , and I haven't seen you adress this point at all, you can't just dodge it and expect people to agree with you + You are severaly oversimplifying the reasons as to why it wasn't unbanned, and should probably go through the suspect thread again to get a more accurate idea.

I honestly can't begin to understand how a a more bulky steel type version (steel resists fairy and psychic fun fact) with a 100 bp free stab isn't more broken. I looked back at your original post and choice band cc hits hard isn't very convincing an argument considering the fact ive played with urshifu-rr a mon with a great secondary stab and a pivot move both things zama sorely lacks, Zama has a better speed stat giving it a use over urshifu but I don't see how it flatly outclasses.

especially when said thing is definitely going to be overpowered and the ensuing suspect as pointless as it is predictable (although I know you don't agree with the overpowered point).

I don't agree with everyone knowing its overpowered, it very well can be but every argument you make comes back to it can run a lot of sets I don't think something is broken just because its flexible

if you want a reason better than why not how about it limits weavile and its an offensive check to melmetal I can't predict the uses it would have in the meta game because no one wants to give it a look in the meta. and I think testing the mon is the only effective way to find out

Edit: side note you can't decide if gen 8 is alive or not and my suggestion would atleast get people on ladder

 

[samohi0]

It got 75% Do Not Unban votes in a metagame that still had Kyurem, and even if you think Hero is worse than Crowned, it still has the item advantage as well as outrunning Koko

Click to collapse...

hero is also weak to koko? crowned also had a strong secondary stab that hero lacks?

 

[YoruNoxx]

"but the same way you cannot fit all moves, your opponent cannot know which ones you are running either,"

that's kinda part of Pokemon you figure out what kind of set the opponent is running and you counter play it. the sheer fact that it can't fit all its moves is all you need to know. there are many mons that can in theory beat all their checks but in practice struggle to cover enough things.

Click to collapse...

Final line of Paragraph 1: You can only outplay the sets if you have what is required in your team to do so. Repeating the example I gave: if your counterplay is clef and lando, then you can outplay all you want, if the zama is fang slam then its over, and you won't outplay anything.

"To that, add the possibility of Zama-H running a variety of sets which were all Zama-C could only dream of, ie Banded, Scarf, chesto berry rest stuff, substitute (a few hp evs and zama's sub can literally live scald from bro/slowking/pex, what do you do if it just subs on the switch and starts setting up?)"

for example this hypothetical sub set you envision, it runs sub, cc, Howl? crunch?(I mean howl is awful but you said "start setting up") how does that fair into a more offensive team with thinks like koko, lucha, scarf lele, volc, hell even something like chomp. Resto Chesto is a fraud set for mons without reliable recovery dog only runs it because it pairs well with body press setup.

I think your argument of variety of sets actually lends itself to my side much better your band and scarf sets would struggle into the natural bulkiness of the tier while anti bulky sets would struggle into offense

Click to collapse...

You are spending a lot of time trying to debunk the admitedly weaker sets I am mentioning, but that does not mean that they won't exist or have no value. More importantly, you are missing the underlying point. All of these sets have theoretical merit, and they have such merits because zama-H is undeniably overpowered.
Your second point is straight out dishonest I'm sorry to say this. Just because the Band and Scarf sets would struggle to some extent against something does not mean that all of a sudden the mon is invalidated. The issue stems from the lack of overlapping counterplay to the different sets, a problem reminiscent of the evil reign of Kyurem. Each core you play can theoretically be broken through, and there is just too many valid options for Zama-H for it not to become an absolutely MU fish mon which no tier would ever need. Furthermore, Band would NOT struggle into whatever the natural bulkiness of the tier is supposed to be. As a matter of fact, it would be absolutely excellent as a breaker alongside future sight. + Anti bulky sets ? What is that? Band is very much a very good breaker so truly, this sentence just gives wrong in several ways.

Also howl is awful? Howl was enough to get Zama-C banned, like please, if you don't know the precedent, then get your facts checked instead of looking uninformed. A move has its own value, and its value on a pokemon. Ridiculing howl on its own without attaching it to the pokemon that actually uses it is deceiptive and this discussion deserves better.

About 1 third of my first post was dedicated to breaking down the idea that Zama-C was, in fact, not the stronger version (why power balance in SV wasn't applicable to SS and the point about items) , and I haven't seen you adress this point at all, you can't just dodge it and expect people to agree with you + You are severaly oversimplifying the reasons as to why it wasn't unbanned, and should probably go through the suspect thread again to get a more accurate idea.

I honestly can't begin to understand how a a more bulky steel type version (steel resists fairy and psychic fun fact) with a 100 bp free stab isn't more broken. I looked back at your original post and choice band cc hits hard isn't very convincing an argument considering the fact ive played with urshifu-rr a mon with a great secondary stab and a pivot move both things zama sorely lacks, Zama has a better speed stat giving it a use over urshifu but I don't see how it flatly outclasses.

Click to collapse...

I will just pretend that this sarcasm isn't ill-intentioned, but do know that the irony is lost on no one considering some of the things you said.
So let's break down your reasoning for why Zama-C is stronger (which is false): It has a steel type and is 30 pts bulkier
Now: As evidenced by the calcs I gave you Zama-H is still unkillable (need I remind you the moonblast/draco meteor calcs? Even scarf lele's moonblast is a roll). Yes, Zama-C is bulkier, both due to its typing and stats, but you know as much as I do that stats are pointless without a context. In this context, Zama-H is already a nightmare to damage and revenge kill. (Regieleki is faster yet still worse than zeraora, because being THAT much faster doesn't matter as much past a certain point, and Zama-H is arguably past that point bulk wise)
Additionally, the steel type is the steel type, but on Zama crowned, it also creates new weaknesses in exchange for the resistances it gains (EQ, sacred sword (kart), CC (many mons), occasional flamethrowers...).

If banded zama is what you got from my first post, then you should read again because it carries little weight in my argument. Furthermore, the banded set's value stemms mostly from future sight (as you aknowledged yourself and several users pointed out). Therefore, summarizing our stance as "oh it hits hard" is yet another instance of you distorting/misrepresenting our argument. Akin to the Howl point I mentioned above, please take the appropriate context into account, it's not just banded zama, it's banded zama coupled to future sight, a variety of possible sets, and the absolute stupid bulk.


"I don't see how it flatly ouclasses". Mmmmmh, when did I say that it did? The only one who said that a pokemon was ever flatly outclassing another was you with Zama-C.
I find it curious how a 30 points difference in bulk is a huge deal when comparing both zamas, but suddenly seems unimportant when comparing Zama-H to Urshifu. Zama-H also has a much much better speed stat, as you correctly aknowledged, as well as better coverage (and yes, it matters). Finally, Urshifu can't just setup and one shot his hard checks just because it decided to run that one very valid coverage move. Zama-H? It can do this to about half of the "checks" you mentioned, quite the upside if you ask me.

I don't agree with everyone knowing its overpowered, it very well can be but every argument you make comes back to it can run a lot of sets I don't think something is broken just because its flexible

if you want a reason better than why not how about it limits weavile and its an offensive check to melmetal I can't predict the uses it would have in the meta game because no one wants to give it a look in the meta. and I think testing the mon is the only effective way to find out

Edit: side note you can't decide if gen 8 is alive or not and my suggestion would atleast get people on ladder

Click to collapse...

"Every argument you make comes back to it can run a lot of sets" -> Read again.
When I give you calcs to show that its too strong, you dismiss them as being "scary calcs" and "not impressive". When I describe the mecanisms through which it can operate in practice, you pick on the secondary options and claim they suck. When I say that the pokemon is nearly impossible to revenge kill, you... Nothing, my point probably got lost somewhere along the way. When I argue that it would be extremely hard to predict which set you are playing against as it was with the Crowned version during its suspect, and that many of these sets do not share the same checks, you minimize my point as just saying "oh it can run a lot of sets" and claim that it's my only argument. Forgetting can happen, and we are yapping a lot so obviously, we'll be forgetting things. That said that's a lot of forgetting damn.

"I don't think something is broken just because its flexible" -> Neither do I, but see the point above, read it again maybe.

Edit: side note you can't decide if gen 8 is alive or not and my suggestion would atleast get people on ladder

Click to collapse...

When. When did I claim that gen 8 was either alive or dead? I said that ladder was dead, and it is, that's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Not to mention that the only phrasing that seemed to carry the idea of a dying/dead tier, were the followings:
"have one last great adventure", "revitalized version"
Nothing to add regarding that tangent.

Finally, would this get people on ladder ? Maybe, maybe not, it is frankly difficult to tell considering the state of the ladder right now, and we can't rely on it the way the SM council is relying on the SM ladder for the Manaphy suspect test. When even in SVOU, with an active ladder, debates about how to involve the official tournament players into voting processes are happening, I don't think we can ever be certain that the suspect turnout will ever be sufficient.
But putting this point aside, suspect tests aren't meant to get people on ladder. All I'm seeing is a goalpost that keeps moving when it comes to the rationale behind a potential suspect, from "adding some offense", to "why not is just as good of a reason than why", to "let's have one last adventure", before settling on "it would revitalize the ladder".
Not sure any of these last three points are valid at all btw, even the first one is dubious.

EDIT: it seems that neither stone edge nor heavy slam are learned by Zamazenta in gen 8, thanks to Lacks for pointing it out (the irony of this very easy counter argument coming from someone who doesn't want to see zamazenta unbanned).
My points about set diversity likely still stand, but no slam in particular does make the point about clef getting checked irrelevant. For the sake of honesty, here is the damage of the next best options:

+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 288-340 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

No stone edge implies that zap is now a much better answer as well. Torn still is still weird tho:

+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 244-288 (63.7 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tornadus-Therian: 318-376 (87.8 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Tornadus-Therian: 230-272 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Lacks]

I'm feeling literate today so I'll add my 2 cents on this.

First off, in fairness to samohi, Zama actually doesn't get Heavy Slam or Stone Edge in SS. In that sense, it does seem a little worse than SV Zama, even with 10 more base attack. Offensively, its damaging moves are limited to Close Combat, Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Ice Fang, Iron Head, and Wild Charge. Not a great pool, but even with just these moves, I think it's reasonable to say Zamazenta is just way too fast and strong for SS.

This is the set I want to use as a reference:

Zamazenta @ Life Orb/Expert Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang/Psychic Fangs

Yeah, Life Orb recoil is bad etc etc, but on a Pokemon this fast and strong, I feel like it does enough enough damage to warrant its use. I made it Jolly, but Adamant is probably just as viable. Adamant Expert Belt has similar calcs without the recoil, likely making it better, but that's besides the point. Howl is also an option to boost, but I think an All-Out-Attacker works just fine.

I feel this set alone makes offence much more difficult, since you're outspeeding and OHKOing or 2HKOing offence staples like Garchomp, Kartana, Heatran, Melmetal, Landorus, Tornadus, Tapu Lele, and Weavile, just to name a few. The other fighters, namely Urshifu and Buzzwole, can't both 2HKO and outspeed these Pokemon without some cost, like running a Scarf. Zamazenta doesn't have this cost, since despite having weaker moves, it can run a damage boosting item thanks to its incredible speed tier.

Even the fatter guys, like Clefable, Toxapex, Zapdos, Slowbro, and Buzzwole aren't safe from getting 2HKOed on the switch with hazards. Clefable and Toxapex aren't safe even with max physdef, while Zapdos and Buzzwole have to run much fatter sets than the standards. Not to mention, no one likes running passive variants of Zapdos and Buzzwole. Slowbro is a good check for sure, and can fit on bulky offences. However, Slowbro is likely one of Zamazenta's best partners as well, with Future Sight lessening the need to click the right move on the switch. Volcarona is also a good check, but losing out on the ability to use Swarm or a third coverage move hurts it severely, given that Roost would be required to check Zamazenta throughout a game.

I just don't see the reason to try adding this Pokemon, which is both faster than and can fry most Pokemon in the metagame without much effort. While I'm sure it makes offences better in a vacuum, that's just because Zamazenta can be slapped on offence. Offences that don't use Zamazenta are much worse off, and if I want to run a team that doesn't have to worry about playing around Zamazenta's coverage, I'll tend towards fatter styles, not offence.

SS is already a well established metagame that (I think) is fairly well liked by its playerbase. In my admittedly biased opinion, I think SS OU rewards the better player more often than not. Yes, there are still bad matchups, and yes there's still variance (Scald, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Hurricane), but the simplicity of SS's gimmick lacking landscape makes it feel more balanced and competitive (at least to me). Fat and balance are good in SS for sure, but offence has always been quite good as well. I probably play bulky offence like 90% of the time in SS, and I see no need for it to have improvements.

There's no need to bring in a potentially over-centralizing Pokemon to try and add to something that's already in a good place. While some people might think of ways Zamazenta could be beneficial to the metagame, I can think of just as many ways it would be a detriment. And I don't think something like that is worth shaking up the tier over when nothing's wrong with it, especially as an older generation.

Finally, a ladder being alive isn't representative of the state of a tier. See SM OU, which has a much more active ladder, but the ongoing Manaphy suspect arose from Rain's results in tournaments, not from ladder. I feel like if there's anything wrong with SS, whether it be a required shake-up or a problematic Pokemon, it'll be found through tournament results. For now, the metagame is perfectly fine as is (in my opinion).

Holy Yap this is like my love letter to SS OU, never forget your roots. Now back to olt ladder :/

 

[samohi0]

I'm feeling literate today so I'll add my 2 cents on this.

First off, in fairness to samohi, Zama actually doesn't get Heavy Slam or Stone Edge in SS. In that sense, it does seem a little worse than SV Zama, even with 10 more base attack. Offensively, its damaging moves are limited to Close Combat, Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Ice Fang, Iron Head, and Wild Charge. Not a great pool, but even with just these moves, I think it's reasonable to say Zamazenta is just way too fast and strong for SS.

This is the set I want to use as a reference:

Zamazenta @ Life Orb/Expert Belt
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang/Psychic Fangs

Yeah, Life Orb recoil is bad etc etc, but on a Pokemon this fast and strong, I feel like it does enough enough damage to warrant its use. I made it Jolly, but Adamant is probably just as viable. Adamant Expert Belt has similar calcs without the recoil, likely making it better, but that's besides the point. Howl is also an option to boost, but I think an All-Out-Attacker works just fine.

I feel this set alone makes offence much more difficult, since you're outspeeding and OHKOing or 2HKOing offence staples like Garchomp, Kartana, Heatran, Melmetal, Landorus, Tornadus, Tapu Lele, and Weavile, just to name a few. The other fighters, namely Urshifu and Buzzwole, can't both 2HKO and outspeed these Pokemon without some cost, like running a Scarf. Zamazenta doesn't have this cost, since despite having weaker moves, it can run a damage boosting item thanks to its incredible speed tier.

Even the fatter guys, like Clefable, Toxapex, Zapdos, Slowbro, and Buzzwole aren't safe from getting 2HKOed on the switch with hazards. Clefable and Toxapex aren't safe even with max physdef, while Zapdos and Buzzwole have to run much fatter sets than the standards. Not to mention, no one likes running passive variants of Zapdos and Buzzwole. Slowbro is a good check for sure, and can fit on bulky offences. However, Slowbro is likely one of Zamazenta's best partners as well, with Future Sight lessening the need to click the right move on the switch. Volcarona is also a good check, but losing out on the ability to use Swarm or a third coverage move hurts it severely, given that Roost would be required to check Zamazenta throughout a game.

I just don't see the reason to try adding this Pokemon, which is both faster than and can fry most Pokemon in the metagame without much effort. While I'm sure it makes offences better in a vacuum, that's just because Zamazenta can be slapped on offence. Offences that don't use Zamazenta are much worse off, and if I want to run a team that doesn't have to worry about playing around Zamazenta's coverage, I'll tend towards fatter styles, not offence.

SS is already a well established metagame that (I think) is fairly well liked by its playerbase. In my admittedly biased opinion, I think SS OU rewards the better player more often than not. Yes, there are still bad matchups, and yes there's still variance (Scald, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, Hurricane), but the simplicity of SS's gimmick lacking landscape makes it feel more balanced and competitive (at least to me). Fat and balance are good in SS for sure, but offence has always been quite good as well. I probably play bulky offence like 90% of the time in SS, and I see no need for it to have improvements.

There's no need to bring in a potentially over-centralizing Pokemon to try and add to something that's already in a good place. While some people might think of ways Zamazenta could be beneficial to the metagame, I can think of just as many ways it would be a detriment. And I don't think something like that is worth shaking up the tier over when nothing's wrong with it, especially as an older generation.

Finally, a ladder being alive isn't representative of the state of a tier. See SM OU, which has a much more active ladder, but the ongoing Manaphy suspect arose from Rain's results in tournaments, not from ladder. I feel like if there's anything wrong with SS, whether it be a required shake-up or a problematic Pokemon, it'll be found through tournament results. For now, the metagame is perfectly fine as is (in my opinion).

Holy Yap this is like my love letter to SS OU, never forget your roots. Now back to olt ladder :/

Click to collapse...

I was starting to write a comment about how I felt the set you showed while good on paper would struggle in practice and how you were wrong about counters or whatever. but I think your comment really helped me understand the main flaw of my idea isn't that Zam would be to strong, its that people either like gen8 as is or don't care about gen8 and most people who do like gen8 like it because its has a slower more well balanced meta and don't want to see it changed. and honestly while I do deeply believe people are overrating how strong it would be and I think its worth a shot, the exigence for my post was mostly to get some people actually playing ladder. so I'm going to let it go.

 

[ojr]

hello, I like SSOU. I like building SSOU teams. I like landorus-t. I dont like using defog once, only twice. I like non-standard SSOU stuff. enjoy.

What this is not:
- A teamdump of fully sound teams that you should mindlessly copy into your builder and lose your tournament game and be like "oh my god ojr is so dogshit at building im never listening to this guy again".

What this is:
- An attempt at sharing unique sets and compositions with potentially some kind gold being struck here and there
- An attempt at making people look at SS OU through a different, more positive, lens than before.

:nihilego: :mew: :heatran: :buzzwole: :kommo-o: :landorus-therian:
notes:
- Nihilego is very good and underrated. when able to wear down steel types via spikes over the course of a game its very easy to sweep with. its also incredible into stall and to top it off it clears tspikes, whats not to like?
- Mew is such a weird mon that perennially feels underexplored, regardless of the gen. spikes mew is a very annoying disruptor that can be hard to play around properly especially due to its set ambiguity.
- Scarf Buzzwole has a small niche, and that niche is seriously very small. I dont claim to invent this set btw, I stole this off a gtcha replay i think. I do like it being paired with another strong as shit fighting type to make its life at cleaning much easier.
- Kommo-o is good, seriously good. Its comparable to SD Garchomp in the way that it can be a cleanup threat and a breaker in the same way. If you let kommo-o get to +2 +1 and you dont have weav ice shard to save you, good chance you are just lost. Glide resistant and ghost immune differentiate this guy from Garchomp the most. Try kommo-o out, seriously.
- This landorus set you will see me run variants of on a myriad of teams here, im not the biggest fan of the normal sr or fog/eq/uturn/knock or toxic set, especially on offense. zapdos and tornadus are way too good to not run stone edge for. being trade machine is what this landorus does best, wanting the best of both worlds, offense and defense.
- This team is flawed, would not immediately load in tournament play but the core foundation is there, try the ideas laid down here for yourself.

:tapu lele: :dragapult: :landorus-therian: :tornadus-therian: :melmetal: :keldeo-resolute: OR :urshifu-rapid strike:
notes:
- Bulky CM lele is a borderline broken set, why do I see it so few times in tournament play, I do not know.
- Dragapult should use thunderbolt/thunder more often in an attempt to catch the increasing amount of sdef pex and mandibuzz as dragapult countermeasures.
- Landorus should no longer be exclusively ran as a sdef sball sponge, some physdef variants can be very crucial against blaziken, garchomp and melmetal, esp w rocky helmet.
- Sometimes running no defog and using heat wave + hurricane on tornadus-t can be equally if not more effective in dealing with spikes teams.
- Investing a lot into speed with Melmetal is incredibly strong into many stall teams, never forget DIB can flinch.
- Keldeo is a good scarfer in the same way as WaterShifu is good as a scarfer in SSOU, Keldeos extra speed can make a big difference but I do believe ScarfShifu is still viable on this team, up to you to decide which one you like more. Also dont forget Keldeo is not hindered by contact punishment i.e. Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, Rocky Helmet!
- This team was built in a reaction against the rise of magnezone offenses and trying the same type of concept without a magnezone and proving that it can still work without an objectively mediocre mon, magnezone.
- I think this team has what it takes to be loaded in tournament play and is not very flawed as others.

:heatran: :crawdaunt: :weavile: :landorus-therian: :volcanion: :dragonite:
notes:
- Weavile can sometimes run knock-less if you believe that you can efficiently play around Toxapex teams. Low kick is very nice to speed up the process vs a guy like melmetal for dragonite.
- Bulky SD lando returns from that first team, hes very cool, please use him.
- Volcanion can sometimes use power herb solar beam because rotom-wash can be really, really, really annoying and this is an efficient lure. you can also dunk on gastrodon which is a nice bonus for dnite as well.
- I think this team can be used in tournament play and was used there before by someone else but i think they lost so maybe you should slightly tweak it?

:melmetal: :landorus-therian: :volcanion: :tapu lele: :blaziken: :dragonite:
notes:
- Here we have another hybrid lando, no SD this time, but we see again the attempt at sniping zapdos offensively and also see physdef evs just like on the 2nd team.
- This volcanion set with sub leftovers is a really weird early game mon that can be super strong to open up the game but it fails vs the new rise of triple water stall and i dont really know how to fix this issue with this team and i hope someone out there will find a way to circumvent this matchup.
- Overall this might be one of the most normal teams of the bunch here but there is the obvious triple water stall issue, outside of that its a pretty fun pick that could be very usable in tour-play.

:mew: :clefable: :gastrodon: :toxapex: :mandibuzz: :corviknight:
notes:
- no. next team.

:weavile: :tapu fini: :heatran: :tapu lele: :kartana: :landorus-therian:
notes:
- I mainly included this team cuz it has nature power heatran and that move is really cool.
- Tapu lele clicks buttons cmon lol do we need an explanation.
- I thought landorus could afford to go double dance here, pretty cute, might be greed.
- Had to include some more normal teams here to be taken seriously for some of the warcrime teams I have in here.

:ninetales-alola: :arctozolt: :corviknight: :tapu fini: :tornadus-therian: :nidoking:
notes:
- This looks a lot like regular hail but I thought regular hail was weak to protect blaziken, so I put a fini on there.
- I think this fini set can still be tweaked to include some other options like knock off and taunt potentially, moonblast might be droppable?
- Modest Nidoking is very good at pressuring sand teams, with tbolt for slowking.
- I think this team is pretty solid, maybe a little soft into electrics but I think this is an improvement on the normal hail.

:cloyster: :blaziken: :garchomp: :dragapult: :urshifu-rapid strike: :melmetal:
notes:
- Cloyster is an extremely underplayed mon in the current metagame. With explosion it can remove a key defensive piece from the opposing side, opening up the way for an other sweeper to clean the game i.e. blaziken. A naive nature makes it faster than even scarf kartana. Many heatran offenses that lack rillaboom will have a hard time vs Cloyster. Its natural physical bulk still gives it plenty of usecases vs common mons like garchomp and weavile.
- No Flying type on this team is weird but I believe with Cloyster, Air Balloon Blaziken and Scarf Urshifu you get enough offensive counterplay vs ground types.
- This Garchomp set is rising up in usage, its a extremely nice middleground between a breaker and a rocks setter, lets you get more flexible in building offenses, not being always forced into the same heatran structures.
- Remember when I said to try out speed investment on melmetal? yeah, how about outspeeding corviknight. This might be completely deranged but I think its worth a shot.
- This is my favorite team this year, it looks on the surface like a stupid team a kid would make with no real thought behind other than spamming (pseudo-)legendary pokemon and other fan favorites, but when you get into it there is some interesting thought behind it.

Extras:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 208 SpD / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Gravity
- Stealth Rock
This combination of max attack + rocky helmet and stone edge is something I used before as anti Torn lead, many torns will click knock off vs you turn one, take dmg and then die to edge or click hurricane turn one take the stone edge and then uturn and die to rocky helmet. Its a funny little interaction that can get you ahead in the game very early on if your opponent isnt careful.

Rillaboom @ Coba Berry
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 244 HP / 220 Atk / 32 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
I have been using this set for quite a while now and its extremely effective in many physically offensive compositions. The idea is that you use SD on a switch to either a tornadus or zapdos take pretty little from cane and then wood hammer blows them into glide range, in the case of tornadus they can ofcourse switch out still to regenerate health but the damage to their team will be done regardless.

Melmetal @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 216 SpD / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Superpower
- Thunder Punch
- Substitute
Sometimes life can be hard when playing with Melmetal predictions and it can get awkward vs mons like toxapex and ferrothorn if you make a miss-step. Substitute makes use of these allowing you to flip the script on a toxapex trying to knock or scald you or on ferrothorn going for leech, you get the idea.

SS OU is very fun but people make it less fun and it gets a bad rep, I hope people make SS OU more fun and stop spamming the same boring teams over and over again. Enjoy.

 

[Bedal Roscoe]

This tournament usage rate looks crazy. How far is it different to ladder usage (either while it was CG or now)?