Mechanics Sword & Shield Battle Mechanics Research

Can someone test how the new Healing Wish mechanic works? If I were to take an attack before I moved would it immediately heal me back to full if I sent out a Pokémon at max health? If I were to use Clangorous Soul or Belly Drum from max would that activate and heal me? Or is it exclusive to Ally Switch?
 
Last night, PokéTuber shofu had a weird Double Battle interaction on his Twitch stream that no one could explain, myself included.
The timestamp for the battle starts here, and the actual interaction happens on the last turn of the battle.

Here's the scenario:
shofu has a Zen Mode Galarian Darmanitan w/ Lum Berry and Arcanine w/ Life Orb, both at below half HP. Darmanitan had just reverted back from its Dynamax.
His opponent, Roto, has a full HP Hitmontop w/o White Herb (used up) ready to finish Darmanitan off with Sucker Punch, plus an empty slot as Hitmontop is his last Pokémon.
It is Hailing, and there is Grassy Terrain.
Hitmontop uses Sucker Punch, "But it failed!"
This allows the Darmanitan and Arcanine to both connect with their respective Icicle Crash and Flare Blitz to KO Hitmontop and win the game for shofu.

But, hold on, why did Sucker Punch fail? It didn't miss, just straight-up failed. Both Darmanitan and Arcanine used damage-dealing moves, so Sucker Punch should have worked on either of them.

At first, users in the chat brushed off this interaction as Roto misclicking and targeting his ally slot, messing up the Sucker Punch (sidenote: I didn't know this interaction was possible). However, later in the stream, Roto tags shofu with the following tweet showing that he indeed targeted the Darmanitan with Sucker Punch, which generates a bit more discussion for the next few minutes.
twitter.com/rotomotorz/status/1204630015423369216

Am I missing something? The only explanations I've considered are Zen Mode shenanigans or updated Sucker Punch mechanics.
My inner wishlister wants to believe Ice-types in Hail negate positive priority now, like how Dark-types gained the Prankster immunity last gen.
 
Is G-max Snooze a sound-based move? It goes through substitutes. Are soundproof mons immune to it?
Seconding this. Also worth checking if - assuming that's the case - Liquid Voice turns it into a water type move. (or even possibly Max Geyser depending on the interactions)
 
Last night, PokéTuber shofu had a weird Double Battle interaction on his Twitch stream that no one could explain, myself included.
The timestamp for the battle starts here, and the actual interaction happens on the last turn of the battle.

Here's the scenario:
shofu has a Zen Mode Galarian Darmanitan w/ Lum Berry and Arcanine w/ Life Orb, both at below half HP. Darmanitan had just reverted back from its Dynamax.
His opponent, Roto, has a full HP Hitmontop w/o White Herb (used up) ready to finish Darmanitan off with Sucker Punch, plus an empty slot as Hitmontop is his last Pokémon.
It is Hailing, and there is Grassy Terrain.
Hitmontop uses Sucker Punch, "But it failed!"
This allows the Darmanitan and Arcanine to both connect with their respective Icicle Crash and Flare Blitz to KO Hitmontop and win the game for shofu.

But, hold on, why did Sucker Punch fail? It didn't miss, just straight-up failed. Both Darmanitan and Arcanine used damage-dealing moves, so Sucker Punch should have worked on either of them.

At first, users in the chat brushed off this interaction as Roto misclicking and targeting his ally slot, messing up the Sucker Punch (sidenote: I didn't know this interaction was possible). However, later in the stream, Roto tags shofu with the following tweet showing that he indeed targeted the Darmanitan with Sucker Punch, which generates a bit more discussion for the next few minutes.
twitter.com/rotomotorz/status/1204630015423369216

Am I missing something? The only explanations I've considered are Zen Mode shenanigans or updated Sucker Punch mechanics.
My inner wishlister wants to believe Ice-types in Hail negate positive priority now, like how Dark-types gained the Prankster immunity last gen.
Sucker Punch now requires not only that the target picked an attacking move that turn, but also that they specifically targeted you with it. Yes, this means that if both of the opponents choose to target the blank slot instead of the Hitmontop, they can be safe in the knowledge that Sucker Punch cannot beat them, even though their attacks end up getting redirected into Hitmontop anyway.

[UPDATE] Superseded by this new research.
 
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DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
Sucker Punch now requires not only that the target picked an attacking move that turn, but also that they specifically targeted you with it. Yes, this means that if both of the opponents choose to target the blank slot instead of the Hitmontop, they can be safe in the knowledge that Sucker Punch cannot beat them, even though their attacks end up getting redirected into Hitmontop anyway.
Twitch Vod clearly shows the Icicle Crash and Flare Blitz being targeted into the Hitmontop slot.

So while this interaction could show it, this wasn't what happened here. Shofu definitely put both moves into the Hitmontop slot. So unless there is something funky with Sucker Punch and being the "second" Pokemon we don't know about, I would guess this miught be some super unintended consequence between Dynamax, Zen Mode and Sucker Punch's targeting.
 
Sucker Punch now requires not only that the target picked an attacking move that turn, but also that they specifically targeted you with it. Yes, this means that if both of the opponents choose to target the blank slot instead of the Hitmontop, they can be safe in the knowledge that Sucker Punch cannot beat them, even though their attacks end up getting redirected into Hitmontop anyway.
In that video, Ludicolo targeted Pelipper but Skuntank could still Sucker Punch it. The only problem happened when it targeted an empty position.
 
If a Pokémon's Unburden is activated, and it then loses Unburden (through Skill Swap, Entrainment, etc) does it retain the speed boost?
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
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RE: Sucker Punch mechanics - this is almost certainly a bug in the game. Anubis and I have labbed the interaction extensively, and we recorded several examples to supplement our explanation of why Sucker Punch is failing this way. Note that in the video, the capture card footage is DaWoblefet's perspective, then it switches to a phone recording done by Anubis of the same battle.


For Sucker Punch to fail as in the above videos, the following conditions must obtain:
  1. The player whose Sucker Punch will fail must be the one who starts the battle with their trainer card on the right (that is, it's host-based, where the host is the player who starts with their trainer card on the left)
  2. The target of Sucker Punch is the left slot of the opponent. It never fails on the right slot (the opponent is the player who starts the battle with their trainer card on the left)
  3. The player who starts with their trainer card on the right must only have one Pokemon remaining at the start of the turn
It does not matter what attacking move the target is using (we tried Surf, lots of different single target moves), or what slot the target was targeting (empty partner slots have nothing to do with this Sucker Punch fail).

If the player with their trainer card on the left uses Feint with an ally in the right slot of the opponent, to KO the ally of the user of Sucker Punch, then Sucker Punch will still successfully work on the opponent's left slot. For example:

opposing right-slot Croagunk + opposing left-slot Silvally
vs.
left slot Togekiss + right slot Skuntank

Croagunk uses Feint to KO Togekiss, leaving only Skuntank remaining. Sucker Punch is still successful and hits on the Silvally, which uses Iron Head.

******************
There's still one difficulty remaining with Sucker Punch fails (this tweet). Anubis and I tried every combination of host, non-host, attacking different slots, etc. but we couldn't replicate a right-slot Sucker Punch fail like in this video. I would need more information on the battle itself.

******************
Host mechanics notes:
  • In Generation 7, the easiest way to tell who was hosting was via who sent out their Pokemon second. In SwSh, the game always sends your Pokemon out second, so this can't be used to determine who is hosting.
  • In Generation 7, if two players used Tailwind on the same turn, the Tailwind that expired first would be be determined by host (host's Tailwind expires first, not Speed-based). In SwSh, it is still host-based (not Speed-based), and the left trainer card's Tailwind always expired first. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the host is the player who starts the battle with the left trainer card.
  • I have no idea how host is determined. All my testing was with Anubis online, and it seemed effectively random who was host. I certainly don't know who will be considered the host in VGC matches (I couldn't even determine how host is determined in Live Competition in USUM, and I don't really know how irl VGC tournaments will work yet).
 
View attachment 211438

Screenshot posted in RU discord from another discord. I don't know if anyone has gone as far as hacking the game, but is this the case?
I'd be very interested to know if this is true. By far the biggest implication is the removal of Toxic from the vast majority of learn sets, but I suspect the bigger motive is to make sure people aren't required to import past gen Pokemon to keep up.
 

Anubis

i am a cute birb irl
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PS Leader
View attachment 211438

Screenshot posted in RU discord from another discord. I don't know if anyone has gone as far as hacking the game, but is this the case?
I'd be very interested to know if this is true. By far the biggest implication is the removal of Toxic from the vast majority of learn sets, but I suspect the bigger motive is to make sure people aren't required to import past gen Pokemon to keep up.
The shaking their head message is from using weight based moves vs Dynamax. I hacked an Umbreon in with Toxic and it worked fine. I also hacked in a Bisharp with Knock off and it was fine. It's possible the move will get deleted on transfer but the game certainly allows it to be used now.
 
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Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
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RE: Sucker Punch mechanics - this is almost certainly a bug in the game. Anubis and I have labbed the interaction extensively, and we recorded several examples to supplement our explanation of why Sucker Punch is failing this way. Note that in the video, the capture card footage is DaWoblefet's perspective, then it switches to a phone recording done by Anubis of the same battle.


For Sucker Punch to fail as in the above videos, the following conditions must obtain:
  1. The player whose Sucker Punch will fail must be the one who starts the battle with their trainer card on the right (that is, it's host-based, where the host is the player who starts with their trainer card on the left)
  2. The target of Sucker Punch is the left slot of the opponent. It never fails on the right slot (the opponent is the player who starts the battle with their trainer card on the left)
  3. The player who starts with their trainer card on the right must only have one Pokemon remaining at the start of the turn
It does not matter what attacking move the target is using (we tried Surf, lots of different single target moves), or what slot the target was targeting (empty partner slots have nothing to do with this Sucker Punch fail).

If the player with their trainer card on the left uses Feint with an ally in the right slot of the opponent, to KO the ally of the user of Sucker Punch, then Sucker Punch will still successfully work on the opponent's left slot. For example:

opposing right-slot Croagunk + opposing left-slot Silvally
vs.
left slot Togekiss + right slot Skuntank

Croagunk uses Feint to KO Togekiss, leaving only Skuntank remaining. Sucker Punch is still successful and hits on the Silvally, which uses Iron Head.

******************
There's still one difficulty remaining with Sucker Punch fails (this tweet). Anubis and I tried every combination of host, non-host, attacking different slots, etc. but we couldn't replicate a right-slot Sucker Punch fail like in this video. I would need more information on the battle itself.

******************
Host mechanics notes:
  • In Generation 7, the easiest way to tell who was hosting was via who sent out their Pokemon second. In SwSh, the game always sends your Pokemon out second, so this can't be used to determine who is hosting.
  • In Generation 7, if two players used Tailwind on the same turn, the Tailwind that expired first would be be determined by host (host's Tailwind expires first, not Speed-based). In SwSh, it is still host-based (not Speed-based), and the left trainer card's Tailwind always expired first. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the host is the player who starts the battle with the left trainer card.
  • I have no idea how host is determined. All my testing was with Anubis online, and it seemed effectively random who was host. I certainly don't know who will be considered the host in VGC matches (I couldn't even determine how host is determined in Live Competition in USUM, and I don't really know how irl VGC tournaments will work yet).
I bet five bucks we'll end up seeing a return of Acid Weather in the next games.
 

Team Rocket Elite

Data Integration Thought Entity
is a Top Researcher Alumnus
The Sucker Punch glitch is reproducible in in-game Doubles battles. I just went to a cafe to test it.

Example battle:

CPU Milcery on left, CPU Swirlix on right.
My Weavile on the left, my Dugtrio on the right.

Turn 1
My Dugtrio uses Sucker Punch on my Weavile. It hits.
My Weavile uses Metal Claw on CPU Milcery. KOs.
CPU Swirlix uses Fairy Wind on my Weavile.

Turn 2
My Dugtrio uses Sucker Punch on my Weavile. It fails.
My Weavile uses False Swipe on CPU Swirlix.

If Weavile and Dugtrio were swapped and the same battle happened then Sucker Punch would work on Turn 2.

The glitch seems to grant Sucker Punch immunity to the Pokemon and this lasts through switches somehow. So if the Pokemon granted immunity switches out and switches in on the other slot, they are still immune to Sucker Punch. If a Pokemon switches in to the left slot after the glitch was trigged (by KO of the second last Pokemon), they do not receive Sucker Punch immunity. In regards to BlackO_VGC's Tweet, if Rotom was the left slot (from the view of Rotom's trainer) when the bottom trainer went down to 1 Pokemon, Rotom would gain Sucker Punch immunity. After that Rotom would just need to switch out and switch back in on the other slot to produce that video. Rotom gets Volt Switch so I can imagine plausible earlier turns that lead up the that final turn video.

Another thing I tried was interaction with Assault Vest. If the game was mistakenly thinking the Pokemon was not using a damaging attack then maybe Assault Vest would get messed up as well. But I couldn't find anything wrong.

I then tried Quash. The glitch gives seems to give immunity to Quash but not After You. So it looks like the game is getting confused regarding turn order.

Oranguru used Quash on Torkoal. But it failed!
Torkoal used Withdraw.
CPU Swirlix attacks.

I haven't had a chance to double check behavior in a link battle but I would guess it works the same way.
 
Gen 1 called, they want their glitches back.


Okay seriously, that's just going to be annoying once that's implemented on Showdown, some matches just lost because of a glitch and losing a 50/50 die roll before the battle even starts. Really sucks for Doubles users.

Although, on the bright side, since the game hints at who is the host just from the Trainer Cards, so I guess you could just have Showdown tell you at the beginning of the battle who the host is, along with adding "Fails if the target is the right-side Pokemon, your opponent is the host, and you only have 1 Pokemon left" to Sucker Punch's description.

(Right-side being the non-host's perspective)
 
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HoeenHero wanted to know so I tested a couple things in game.

Neutralizing Gas on the Field, Neutralizing Gas gets switched in. NeutGas activates on entry.

NeutGas suppressed by Gastro Acid. Switched in a Corvi with Pressure. Pressure activated: Gastro Acid suppresses NeutGas successfully.

Can provide clips if needed showing the findings.
 

DaWoblefet

Demonstrably so
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A follow-up on Sucker Punch glitch research: taking what Team Rocket Elite said but with video evidence:

So the "left slot" part of my conclusions from previous research is wrong; it's actually whichever Pokemon is selected to be the first slot in Team Preview. In other words, it's the first Pokemon that gets sent out in the left slot by the host. But that Pokemon doesn't even need to be on the field for the Sucker Punch glitch to apply to it. This new behavior seems to account for every video I've seen concerning the Sucker Punch glitch, so I think we've got a handle on this.

If the first Pokemon sent out by the host faints, then the Sucker Punch glitch will not apply. Even if the first Pokemon is KOed, it doesn't "carry over" to the second Pokemon selected in Team Preview or anything like that.

In addition, as seen in the video, Anubis and I find that the Sucker Punch glitch does not occur in singles. We didn't try any additional Quash research.

Not seen in the video: neither Dynamaxing nor a regular forme change (we tested Cramorant) will get rid of the "Sucker Punch glitch volatile" that gets attached to the first Pokemon.

******************
Unrelated mechanics tests:
  • Dynamaxed Pokemon are immune to Skill Swap and Entrainment (attempting to use those moves on a Dynamaxed Pokemon will say "but it failed!"). Worry Seed, Simple Beam, Role Play, Gastro Acid, Trace, and Receiver are all not blocked and work fine on Dynamaxed Pokemon. I'm pretty sure there's no contact max moves, so it wouldn't interact with Mummy or Wandering Spirit to be tested.
  • When a Pokemon Dynamaxes / Gigantamaxes, it does not behave like a standard forme change; stats adjusted by moves like Speed Swap, typing changes from moves like Magic Powder, or weight changes from Autotomize do not get recalculated when Dynamaxing. A Pokemon like Aegislash, on the other hand, when it changes formes with Stance Change, will still recalculate stats / update typing / update weight like in Generation 7.
    • The one exception to the above rule is Cramorant. If it has the fish or Pikachu in its mouth, Dynamaxing will revert it back to its regular forme, which counts as a forme change.
  • Probably already known, but Dynamaxed Pokemon are immune to all flinches, not just from Fake Out. A Dynamaxed Silvally failed to flinch after 6 instances of Iron Head + Serene Grace Air Slash.
  • Dynamaxed Pokemon are not immune to Grudge, and KOing some target while Dynamaxed will reveal the base move when all its PP is reduced to 0. For example, Max Darkness -> KO Grudge Pokemon -> "<Pokemon>'s Darkest Lariat lost all of its PP due to the grudge!"
  • Grudge can be used multiple times in a row without failing.
 
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Anubis

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Seems that speed recalculates dynamically, but priority brackets don't.

Videos to support this: https://imgur.com/a/e0AmlZZ

- Flinging Custap Berry does nothing but damage (all 3 Inteleons used Fling and couldn't get the low HP Ferrothorn to move sooner).
- Same for Prankster Tricking a Lagging Tail (can't get Inteleon to move last).
- Same for activated Quick Claw Trick to another mon (Ferrothorn still moves last).

EDIT: See this post demonstrating that Skill Swapping Prankster changes move order dynamically.
 
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So Utility Umbrella's inconsistent behaviour makes me unsure if I understand the main post correctly and seem to have a mishmash of effects with no particular consistency. Is this below how it works?

  • Prevents weather synergy abilities from working: Swift Swim, Solar Power (both boost and HP loss), Hydration(?)*, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Dry Skin (the endturn effect only), Ice Body, Rain Dish, Harvest(?), Sand Force, Leaf Guard
  • Does not take boosted or reduced damage from Sun/Rain, nor does Thunder/Hurricane/Blizzard become guranteed to hit against it**. The holder's own moves is unaffected and will still affect targets with modified damage from Sun/Rain and gurantee Thunder/Hurricane to hit in rain and Blizzard in hail (unless the target is also holding an Umbrella). Solar Beam is unaffected (see below).
  • Rock-type Pokémon still gets a +50% SpD boost, whether it, or something targetting it, holds the Umbrella.
  • Does not get an immunity to the Frozen status condition in sun. Target of an Umbrella holder retains the immunity (assuming the target doesn't hold it as well)
  • Prevents the following moves from having any weather-related side effects if the user holds it: Growth (no +2 in sun), Synthesis+friends (always +50%HP)
  • Solar Beam will not be affected by weather at all if the Solar Beam user holds an Umbrella. Solar Beam is unaffected by targets holding the Umbrella (the move will still have 60BP in rain for example, even if the target holds the Umbrella)

* Hydration and Harvest is not checked in the general weather ability pass, so it might behave differently to the other endturn weather abilities? Also, we've previously had AI problems with the AI not recognizing Cloud Nine and trying to futilely set up weather that is already active. Does the Umbrella confuse Drizzle+friends or Rain Dance+friends (which should fail if trying to set up the same weather twice)?

** The main post is inconsistent. "It does not appear to affect move accuracy in weather", but also "Utility Umbrella holders can avoid Hurricane and Thunder in rain". Which one is it?
 
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So Utility Umbrella's inconsistent behaviour makes me unsure if I understand the main post correctly and seem to have a mishmash of effects with no particular consistency. Is this below how it works?

* Prevents weather synergy abilities from working: Swift Swim, Solar Power (both boost and HP loss), Hydration(?), Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Dry Skin (the endturn effect only), Ice Body, Rain Dish, Harvest(?), Sand Force, Leaf Guard
** Hydration and Harvest is not checked in the general weather ability pass, so it might behave differently to the other endturn weather abilities? Also, we've previously had AI problems with the AI not recognizing Cloud Nine and trying to futilely set up weather that is already active. Does the Umbrella confuse Drizzle+friends or Rain Dance+friends (which should fail if trying to set up the same weather twice)?
* Does not take boosted or reduced damage from Sun/Rain, nor does Thunder/Hurricane/Blizzard become guranteed to hit against it. The holder's own moves is unaffected and will still affect targets with modified damage from Sun/Rain and gurantee Thunder/Hurricane to hit in rain and Blizzard in hail (unless the target is also holding an Umbrella). Solar Beam is unaffected (see below).
** The main post is inconsistent. "It does not appear to affect move accuracy in weather", but also "Utility Umbrella holders can avoid Hurricane and Thunder in rain". Which one is it?
* Rock-type Pokémon still gets a +50% SpD boost, whether it, or something targetting it, holds the Umbrella.
* Does not get an immunity to the Frozen status condition in sun. Target of an Umbrella holder retains the immunity (assuming the target doesn't hold it as well)
* Prevents the following moves from having any weather-related side effects if the user holds it: Growth (no +2 in sun), Synthesis+friends (always +50%HP)
* Solar Beam will not be affected by weather at all if the Solar Beam user holds an Umbrella. Solar Beam is unaffected by targets holding the Umbrella (the move will still have 60BP in rain for example, even if the target holds the Umbrella)
It's not really inconsistent. If anything, it's quite simply how it works: it makes the user (and only the user) behave as if there were no rain or sun.

And while it's impossible on normal conditions on cartridge... does it make a distinction with Primordial Sea or Desolate Land? Not talking about Fire or Water-type moves, respectively, failing on those weathers, but the other sun/rain effects that are ignored by the Umbrella.
 
It's not really inconsistent. If anything, it's quite simply how it works: it makes the user (and only the user) behave as if there were no rain or sun.

And while it's impossible on normal conditions on cartridge... does it make a distinction with Primordial Sea or Desolate Land? Not talking about Fire or Water-type moves, respectively, failing on those weathers, but the other sun/rain effects that are ignored by the Umbrella.
Are you saying that *all* Sandstorm/Hail effects still apply? For example, while Swift Swim no longer works, Slush Rush does? And while the user still gets to avoid Thunder/Hurricane as if rain wasn't up, Blizzard still has perfect accuracy against Umbrella holders?
 
Given that terrains boost the power of their respective types by only 30% now, it seems reasonable to ask if rain and sun only boost the power of theirs by 30% as well. The question was asked by others earlier in the thread, but no posts seem to have answered it yet.

The work the researchers have done here is really appreciated, by the way. These threads are always the most interesting and important ones of the new generations.
 

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