Sword&Shield&Speculation!

[Zneon]

Here's a mon that I believe has the most potential to be fantastic along with Mew.

With so many of the Fairies that outclassed it such as all the Tapus being gone, and so many mons that used to check it also being gone like Heatran and Mega Metagross. Clefable might have a chance to become the absolute best fairy in the metagame. For starters, when nothing really outclassed it as a fairy type, it was the absolute face of ORAS OU, with fantastic abilities, great typing and solid bulk, it was able to dominate so much of the metagame because Twave beat so many of its counters, and crazy, and I do mean crazy movepool that let it perform any role on any team due to its unmatched role compression and utility, and nothing really outclassed it as a Fairy type apart from Xerneas. In SS with all the tapus gone, this thing might be the monster it used to be in Gen 6 thanks to Twave that used to beat its "counters" on the switch and use them as setup fodder on the switch in. I believe that its CM set will probably be at full force due to the lower power level in this generation, and the addition of Dynamax just increases its versatility. That's all I have to say for Clef, but what are your takes on this? Please leave your opinions down below and lets have a discussion about this.

 

[Kalalokki]

but we do know that Farfetch'd can now hold an Eviolite and be used in LC!

Yeah, but why use Eviolite when you have Stick?

 

[Eve]

Since we're making inferences like that, can we add in other duos? Off the top of my head, Shiftry and Mandibuzz are likely seeing as Ludicolo and Braviary are in

the Accelgor line has the unique privilege of literally being required for Escavalier to exist, so it's not really the same thing

 

[Yung Dramps]

the Accelgor line has the unique privilege of literally being required for Escavalier to exist, so it's not really the same thing

Has there been a game where Ludicolo was in the regional dex w/o Shiftry and vice-versa? Same with Mandibuzz. Also we got Throh on the VR in F rank so uhhh

 

[Eve]

Has there been a game where Ludicolo was in the regional dex w/o Shiftry and vice-versa? Same with Mandibuzz. Also we got Throh on the VR in F rank so uhhh

Throh being on there is a mistake, and that's not how Accelgor is required for Escavalier- Karrablast just can't evolve into it without Shelmet existing. We could always change our policy on not immediately allowing counterparts, but Accelgor's inclusion isn't relevant to that



EDIT: I've made a quick doc for SwSh Prospective Little Cup, as Farfetch'd joining the tier might motivate some interest- it has all the currently legal mons and a Viable Type Compendium. It's here if you're interested!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

What's the status on Sirfetch'd and Obstagoon? If there aren't stats for them yet, I made some using the average stat increases of cross-gen evolutions (ignoring branching evolutions like Slowking and Eeveelutions).

Sirfetch'd
HP: 69
Attack: 110
Defense: 67
Special Attack: 75
Special Defense: 76
Speed: 67

Obstagoon
HP: 95
Attack: 90
Defense: 73
Special Attack: 67
Special Defense: 75
Speed: 107

As for moves, Sirfetch'd has Sacred Sword (it makes sense flavor-wise, and it's a lowball compared to Close Combat or Superpower) and Fighting-type Giga Impact, while Obstagoon has Night Slash, Taunt, and Obstruct (let's go with Dark-type Revenge for now).

 

[Yung Dramps]

What's the status on Sirfetch'd and Obstagoon? If there aren't stats for them yet, I made some using the average stat increases of cross-gen evolutions (ignoring branching evolutions like Slowking and Eeveelutions).

Sirfetch'd
HP: 69
Attack: 110
Defense: 67
Special Attack: 75
Special Defense: 76
Speed: 67

Obstagoon
HP: 95
Attack: 90
Defense: 73
Special Attack: 67
Special Defense: 75
Speed: 107

As for moves, Sirfetch'd has Sacred Sword (it makes sense flavor-wise, and it's a lowball compared to Close Combat or Superpower) and Fighting-type Giga Impact, while Obstagoon has Night Slash, Taunt, and Obstruct (let's go with Dark-type Revenge for now).

We aren't speculating stats like this right now. We only got Corviknight's from estimations from demo footage/screenshots where it was playable.

 

[Samtendo09]

We aren't speculating stats like this right now. We only got Corviknight's from estimations from demo footage/screenshots where it was playable.

Yup, I will argue that it is way too early to tell, since none of the screenshots tells what would their base stats could potentially be. I do not think the stats would be really Sirfetch'd at all since its leek shield may indicate that it may have at least a higher base Defense than a mere 67.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Yup, I will argue that it is way too early to tell, since none of the screenshots tells what would their base stats could potentially be. I do not think the stats would be really Sirfetch'd at all since its leek shield may indicate that it may have at least a higher base Defense than a mere 67.

Need I remind you of Vikavolt's speed?

 

[Eve]

Stat estimates are only really worth anything if they come from stat screens. Otherwise we could be completely off, and either far exaggerate or undervalue the mon's metagame value. Corviknight is almost definitely close to the values we have, I can't really see it being worse and it's already very good.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

I suppose I could use this thread to speculate Generation 8 Doubles with restriction.



First off, we have a classic, rain team! You know the drill. Since Mega Swampert will never be in Gen 8, Seismitoad will act as its substitute, providing spread moves such as Earthquake or Muddy Water for rain teams. Since Ludicolo would be the de facto Swift Swim user, making Jellicent and especially Gastrodon not good check to rain team. Furthermore, they could reactivate Rain with a Water-type Max Move, which can be handy if Pelipper fainted. Rain teams are something that needs to keep an eye from. It hasn't been confirmed that Politoed will be in Galar, but it can be a worthy choice in Doubles.

Potential DOU sets

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump/ Scald
- Hurricane
- Tailwind/ U-turn
- Protect/ Wide Guard

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Scald/ Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain/Energy
- Ice Beam

This speed allows Ludicolo to outspeed any mon 150 base Speed and below.

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Energy Ball
- Ice Beam
- Protect/ Fake Out

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake/ Stomping Tantrum
- Ice Punch/ Knock Off
- Protect

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Muddy Water
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb/ Hydro Pump
- Protect

Assuming that 50% pinch berry isn't changed in Gen 8, Snorlax will be one of the biggest threats out there by using Belly Drum and Gluttony activates 50% pinch berry earlier at 50% or below max HP. To illustrate, Snorlax was banned in Gen 7 DOU (tl;dr: Gothitelle). Hopefully, with the lack of the Tapu, the meta won't be as hostile towards Fighting-types. Mew is the best partner for Snorlax as it can provide momentum with Fake Out, sets up Trick Room, and Transform into itself. Mimikyu could be a fine TR setter for it as it could threaten them with Play Rough or Will-O-wisp. But that depends on how Dynamax will impact for Will-O-Wisp's usage considering it saw next to none usage in Gen 7's Terrain War.

Potential DOU set

Snorlax @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 196 HP / 32 Atk / 252 Def / 28 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Belly Drum
- Return
- High Horsepower
- Recycle

Shamelessly ripped straight off from Doubles Teambuilding Competiton

Considering the queen's success in Gen 7 DUU with Queenly Majestic blocking priority moves such as Fake Out and Extreme Speed, I figured Tsareena would be a fantastic pick for SwSh Doubles. Additionally, Tsareena packs good utility options such as Knock Off, U-turn, and Feint. Unfortunately, the queen is weak to common offensive types such as Fire- and Ice-type, requiring any Pokemon that's capable of getting rid of them.

Potential DOU set

Tsareena (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Atk / 4 Def / 100 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Feint/ Play Rough

(please pretend this is galarian form)

Galarian Weezing is something I'm not confident with. On the one hand, Neutralizing Gas is useful for shutting down abilities like Swift Swim, but the problem stems from Weezing's stats not being ideal for Doubles, assuming that it has the same stats as regular Weezing. And Neutralizing Gas can be a double edged sword since it applies to its ally as well. I feel that it might suffer the same fate as Alolan Muk, it was considered solid at the beginning, but Alolan Muk phased out as time went on.

Potential DOU sets

Weezing @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower/ Moonblast
- Haze/ Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

Investing in its Special Attack stat doesn't seem like it would do much for now, so I focus more on its Special Defense instead. May change if it has other attractive new moves. Or it didn't get Moonblast.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Stat estimates are only really worth anything if they come from stat screens. Otherwise we could be completely off, and either far exaggerate or undervalue the mon's metagame value. Corviknight is almost definitely close to the values we have, I can't really see it being worse and it's already very good.

They're almost definitely not correct, but they're statistically likely to be in the ballpark. In my opinion, it's better than nothing. Besides, didn't y'all completely make up the Dynamax effects, in particular the stat effects?

 

[Yung Dramps]

They're almost definitely not correct, but they're statistically likely to be in the ballpark. In my opinion, it's better than nothing. Besides, didn't y'all completely make up the Dynamax effects, in particular the stat effects?

We already know a good chunk of the Dynamax effects, the rest could be extrapolated based on the original types and which types of boosts the known ones cover. Meanwhile, we know nothing of these evolutions' potential stats.

Maybe we could add them as a side thing but without ranking them...?

 

[Eve]

They're almost definitely not correct, but they're statistically likely to be in the ballpark. In my opinion, it's better than nothing. Besides, didn't y'all completely make up the Dynamax effects, in particular the stat effects?

We kinda had to guess the remaining Max Move effects to play with Dynamax at all. Also I've seen several estimates of Sirfetch'd's stats from yours, including my own, and each are very possible and result in an entirely different level of viability. If there's high demand I guess I could code in some of the new mons with ball-park estimates for optional use, but if we're going for meta accuracy I think it'd be safer to just leave them out of the picture for now.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

We kinda had to guess the remaining Max Move effects to play with Dynamax at all. Also I've seen several estimates of Sirfetch'd's stats from yours, including my own, and each are very possible and result in an entirely different level of viability. If there's high demand I guess I could code in some of the new mons with ball-park estimates for optional use, but if we're going for meta accuracy I think it'd be safer to just leave them out of the picture for now.

Do you know on what basis those other estimates were made? Mine come from actual statistics, not "eh, these stats look about right".

Regardless of where the stats come from, I fail to see why it would be better to not have the Pokemon at all. This is a speculative meta. It constantly gets altered when new information comes out.

 

[earl]

Do you know on what basis those other estimates were made? Mine come from actual statistics, not "eh, these stats look about right".

Regardless of where the stats come from, I fail to see why it would be better to not have the Pokemon at all. This is a speculative meta. It constantly gets altered when new information comes out.

When have Pokemon every evolved via statistical averages of all other cross gen evolutions? It’s statistical but the stats are dumb

 

[DrPumpkinz]

When have Pokemon every evolved via statistical averages of all other cross gen evolutions? It’s statistical but the stats are dumb

They don't, but until we get the actual stats, it's a better estimate than just going off of looks (glances at Vikavolt). The best estimate would be getting the averages for ALL evolutions, but I limited the sample size to preserve my sanity.

 

[Eve]

ok chief we get that your averages are cool but they are realistically either gonna be too high or too low, please let this discussion end for now otherwise I'll have to lock the thread lmao or I'll blacklist requests for theorycrafting implementations in order to avoid this sort of thing

 

[G-Luke]

Since we're making inferences like that, can we add in other duos? Off the top of my head, Shiftry and Mandibuzz are likely seeing as Ludicolo and Braviary are in

Its less of a duo thing, and more of a, "Escavilier cant evolve without its partner Shelmet and vice versa" type of thing.

 

[Yung Dramps]

https://dmaxcamera.pokemon.co.jp/ja/

This thing just popped up. It may seem pretty unremarkable, a mere photo app that lets you slap some Dynamaxed Pokemon screenshots in your pictures. That's exactly what it is, actually, but the main thing is that it confirms a handful of returning Pokemon! More specifically, Sableye, Aegislash and Ribombee have been spotted. Sableye and Ribombee could be fairly interesting picks on their own, but Aegislash is the most striking new addition. Probably gonna get hit with a ban anyway, but hey, maybe Dynamax's sheer power can keep it in check. Although now that I think of it, Aegislash can abuse Dynamax very well on both ends and is a prime candidate for Trick Room... Yeah it's probably still gonna be broken lol. Hey, maybe Doublade could have some use?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

As Siggu pointed out in the SwSh discussion thread, unless Stance Change gets altered, Aegislash can't fully abuse Dynamaxing, as it gets locked out of using King's Shield. That might help keep that monster from being too broken.

 

[Count Bleck]

Max Gaurd woukd probably activate Kings Shield in that case, but we'd have to wait and see for that.

We already know what aegislash does, so lets check out our new little pranksters. Ribombee is a precious fast little fairy which a lot of people can easily underestimate. No, its not going to be OU material but it currently has the fastest webs in the game, and some quiver dances to boot! Still a frail little thing but volcorna isnt here to spoil the fun (yet)

Then we have good old sableye. Poor thing lost a ton of its bulk with the lack ot mega, but its utility as a disrupter is notorious. Will o wisp, taunt, toxic, recover, and many more non attacking tools all have their priority. Whether its able to put an end to a dynamaxed gyrados remains to be seen.

 

[Eve]

Ribombee is actually the best Quiver Dance user at all right now as its competition is Butterfree, so that could be neat, but its main thing is definitely gonna be webs and its Speed tier which lets it even act as an offensive response to Weavile. Pretty cool all round.

Sableye looks pretty bad. Prankster Wisp is its only saving grace, and like Dramps said, it's still frail by OU standards.

Aegislash.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I've decided to open a poll on the issue of whether to allow newly introduced Galar Pokemon to be implemented in a very loose fashion, and if so what to add
,
https://forms.gle/MY29CpkWBBUaDYSY7

Please respond

 

[-DarkAlex55-]

Ribombee is actually the best Quiver Dance user at all right now as its competition is Butterfree, so that could be neat, but its main thing is definitely gonna be webs and its Speed tier which lets it even act as an offensive response to Weavile. Pretty cool all round.

Sableye looks pretty bad. Prankster Wisp is its only saving grace, and like Dramps said, it's still frail by OU standards.

Aegislash.

Where is volcarona ? (Sorry for this stupid quote...)