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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
- Start date
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You don't really need that much. 176 with Jolly lets you outspeed Jolly Scarf Tyranitar and hit it with U-turn before it can hit you back. It also lets you outspeed Naive Mega Absol, Jolly Mega Lucario, and Jolly Whimsicott so you can hit them with Brave Bird before they can hit you back with Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, and Encore, respectively. Edit: This is assuming Whimsicott didn't gain more speed this gen.
I've had to dust-off my ol' calculator and some of my old statistics to really figure out how powerful and scary this thing is. Because of its Priority and speed, Talonflame says "I go first", and the damage it does cannot be underestimated. I'm going to use my old Skarmcents system for analysis.
Talonflame has 81 base attack. In my Skarmcents math system... Adamant Talonflame has 173.50 Skarmpoints, and Jolly Talonflame has 157.8 Skarmpoints.
Adamant Talonflame +2 Flying Gem STAB Acrobatics:
173.50 * 2 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 110 == 85882.5 -> 73% to 85.8% dmg to "Theoretical 252/252+ Skarmory". That means everyone that scores less than "85 Skarmcents" is at risk for OHKO. If it weren't for the resist, 252/252+ Zapdos would be OHKOed by this attack.
Adamant Talonflame +2 Life Orb STAB Brave Bird / Flare Blitz:
173.5 * 2 * 1.3 * 1.5 * 120 == 81198 -> 81.198% Skarmcents of damage.
Looking at the Skarmcents chart, 252/252+ Empoleon is at risk for getting OHKOed... quite an impressive feat.
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Fortunately, anyone who can survive +2 Flying Gem STAB Acrobatics and +2 Life Orb Flare Blitz is a counter: Talonflame ain't doing that damage more than once if you're playing correctly. Just look at everyone who scores 86 and above (98 and above with stealth rocks in play), and you've got your list of survivors. 252/252+ Dusknoir is the first survivor of Acrobatics at 86, 252/0 Hippo also survives with a Skarmcents score of 86.
Assuming a Stealth Rocks disadvantage... Gliscor and Slowbro are barely counters at 98 Skarmcents.
I probably should update my skarmcents chart... its really useful when analyzing these new pokemon.
Oh yeah, and Rock Pokemon resist Acrobatics / Flare Blitz. So they only have to hit 43 Skarmcents to serve as a counter... except Talonflame probably will do +2 Steel Wing for coverage.
Adamant Talonflame +2 Life Orb Steel Wing SuperEffective (ie: vs Rock):
173.5 * 2 * 1.3 * 70 * 2 == 63154 -> 63.154 Skarmcents.
Any rock pokemon at 63 Skarmcents or above (68 with Stealth Rocks) serves as a counter.
This thing has the one of the fastest and most powerful priority attack in the game.
Yes, most powerful priority attack period:
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 214-253 (55.44 - 65.54%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 185-218 (47.92 - 56.47%)
Yup. Talonflame Brave Bird is stronger than Extreme-Killer Arceus's ExtremeSpeed. Both have access to Swords Dance for shenanigans.
ExtremeSpeed at +2 priority, Feint is also at +2 priority IIRC. I'm pretty sure Mega Gengar can run Sucker Punch (not that he's very good with it). So there are a few things in this game that can preempt Talonflame.
But not much... not much at all.
Talonflame has 81 base attack. In my Skarmcents math system... Adamant Talonflame has 173.50 Skarmpoints, and Jolly Talonflame has 157.8 Skarmpoints.
Adamant Talonflame +2 Flying Gem STAB Acrobatics:
173.50 * 2 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 110 == 85882.5 -> 73% to 85.8% dmg to "Theoretical 252/252+ Skarmory". That means everyone that scores less than "85 Skarmcents" is at risk for OHKO. If it weren't for the resist, 252/252+ Zapdos would be OHKOed by this attack.
Adamant Talonflame +2 Life Orb STAB Brave Bird / Flare Blitz:
173.5 * 2 * 1.3 * 1.5 * 120 == 81198 -> 81.198% Skarmcents of damage.
Looking at the Skarmcents chart, 252/252+ Empoleon is at risk for getting OHKOed... quite an impressive feat.
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Fortunately, anyone who can survive +2 Flying Gem STAB Acrobatics and +2 Life Orb Flare Blitz is a counter: Talonflame ain't doing that damage more than once if you're playing correctly. Just look at everyone who scores 86 and above (98 and above with stealth rocks in play), and you've got your list of survivors. 252/252+ Dusknoir is the first survivor of Acrobatics at 86, 252/0 Hippo also survives with a Skarmcents score of 86.
Assuming a Stealth Rocks disadvantage... Gliscor and Slowbro are barely counters at 98 Skarmcents.
I probably should update my skarmcents chart... its really useful when analyzing these new pokemon.
Oh yeah, and Rock Pokemon resist Acrobatics / Flare Blitz. So they only have to hit 43 Skarmcents to serve as a counter... except Talonflame probably will do +2 Steel Wing for coverage.
Adamant Talonflame +2 Life Orb Steel Wing SuperEffective (ie: vs Rock):
173.5 * 2 * 1.3 * 70 * 2 == 63154 -> 63.154 Skarmcents.
Any rock pokemon at 63 Skarmcents or above (68 with Stealth Rocks) serves as a counter.
This thing has the one of the fastest and most powerful priority attack in the game.
Yes, most powerful priority attack period:
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 214-253 (55.44 - 65.54%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 185-218 (47.92 - 56.47%)
Yup. Talonflame Brave Bird is stronger than Extreme-Killer Arceus's ExtremeSpeed. Both have access to Swords Dance for shenanigans.
ExtremeSpeed at +2 priority, Feint is also at +2 priority IIRC. I'm pretty sure Mega Gengar can run Sucker Punch (not that he's very good with it). So there are a few things in this game that can preempt Talonflame.
But not much... not much at all.
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252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 227-269 (64.48 - 76.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk (custom) Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 189-223 (53.69 - 63.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Stronger, less reliable.
Talonflame should be manageable by the OU meta. In any case, I like it being around if just to destroy the viability of M-Blaziken and Scolipede, which would be a pain to take down otherwise.
Heatran walls it too death, any Rock type can manage it decently, recoil kills it and it's weak to SR.
Talomflame is extremely manageable and even healthy for the OU meta.
Heatran walls it too death, any Rock type can manage it decently, recoil kills it and it's weak to SR.
Talomflame is extremely manageable and even healthy for the OU meta.
Just a friendly reminder: Don't make one liner posts. Those can be answered in the Simple Question Simple Answer thread. This thread is for discussing more complicated things than ''What nature to use on this Pokemon''. It is ok to ask simple questions here, as long as you put a little more substance to your post, because one line posts only create more one line posts. So, before you post, make sure that you have a reasonable explanation for everything you posted. For example, posting ''Adamant is better for the increased power'' is a pointless post that will get deleted, because anyone that knows the basics knows that (and here knowing the basics is a given). But posting ''Adamant is better because it allows you to OHKO or 2HKO z, x, and y'' is a perfectly fine post.
Well, of course it's manageable. Were people really calling for a ban earlier?
As a user of Sharpedo in Gen V UU, I can easily see that this thing is a cleaner, and a damn good one at that. It's not a sweeper, and it's not meant to set up early-game or even really mid-game and just wreck shit right off the bat; rather, it's something to sweep up the mess of their weakened team. While this seems unimpressive, it's not; going back to Sharpedo, I've been at significant disadvantages, even as much as 4-1, when they tell me "gg" and I'm just like:
And then I proceeded to sweep the rest of their weakened team with my good half-shark friend. Same thing with Talonflame, except you could argue that it's even more potent in some ways, as it's not only got recovery and U-Turn, but excellent and powerful priority. Sure, Talonflame is not broken - it is manageable, and has some counters - but it's not really supposed to take them head-on. It's supposed to take them when they're weak or gone entirely, and clean up the opponent's team better than a Mexican maid can clean a hotel room. And man, does it ever do a good job. You should give it a tip.
As a user of Sharpedo in Gen V UU, I can easily see that this thing is a cleaner, and a damn good one at that. It's not a sweeper, and it's not meant to set up early-game or even really mid-game and just wreck shit right off the bat; rather, it's something to sweep up the mess of their weakened team. While this seems unimpressive, it's not; going back to Sharpedo, I've been at significant disadvantages, even as much as 4-1, when they tell me "gg" and I'm just like:
And then I proceeded to sweep the rest of their weakened team with my good half-shark friend. Same thing with Talonflame, except you could argue that it's even more potent in some ways, as it's not only got recovery and U-Turn, but excellent and powerful priority. Sure, Talonflame is not broken - it is manageable, and has some counters - but it's not really supposed to take them head-on. It's supposed to take them when they're weak or gone entirely, and clean up the opponent's team better than a Mexican maid can clean a hotel room. And man, does it ever do a good job. You should give it a tip.
This is a valid concern, but as long as you keep Talonflame relatively healthy with rocks off the field, Mega Pinsir can't hurt 60 spe Talonflame too badly.
252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 142-168 (41.15 - 48.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 192 HP / 0 Def (custom): 130-153 (37.68 - 44.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Changed attack to 155 on the calculator and quick attack's type to flying, and added life orb to simulate the 30% Aerialate boost.
And if anyone's curious you need 208 speed EVs on Talonflame to outspeed jolly Mega Pinsir, or 88 to outrun adamant Mega Pinsir. Though I'm not sure why anyone would run adamant with that speed tier, but who knows.
I'm using Scoliopede to pass boost to Talonflame, and it works extremely well.
A Talonflame that comes in already boosted is EXTREMELY hard to deal with.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oubeta-59480571
A Talonflame that comes in already boosted is EXTREMELY hard to deal with.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oubeta-59480571
This thing is dangerous when used correctly, but most aren't using it the right way from what I've seen (such as giving it flame body as an ability and then spamming brave bird). Talonflame is extremely manageable in OU, it falls easily to most strong attacks (especially rock) and stealth rock is not its friend but when used the right way it is a good cleaner. It has its niche, but it needs counters removed or weakened and rocks off the field before it can come in and do its job.
What was the set that you were using for that? Mainly what was the Item you were holding (It didn't look like Life Orb) and what was the 4th move? Preferably post the Moves EVs Item and Nature but it might be secret. Please and thank you.
Watching that replay showed that passing boosts is always good with great sweepers specifically Talonflame. TF wants to have a team set up around it IMO. Having a Spinner, SD Passer, possibly a Wish Passer (I am working on trying to test those, might be too defensive).
A bulky Heatran with a Brave or Naughty nature might actually become viable because of this guy. Its 130 base special attack was wasted last gen due to rain and all of the specially bulky titans who could all but ignore his coverage moves. You couldn't even OHKO enemy SpDef Heatran without a boosting item.
...so why not go mixed? Between Fire Blast and EdgeQuake, you still get to check everything you'd want a Heatran to check and more, including Talonflame. In the day and age of nerfed special attacks and physical supremacy, I see no reason why good ol' Heatran can't respond in kind.
...so why not go mixed? Between Fire Blast and EdgeQuake, you still get to check everything you'd want a Heatran to check and more, including Talonflame. In the day and age of nerfed special attacks and physical supremacy, I see no reason why good ol' Heatran can't respond in kind.
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Or you could run Stealth Rock + Roar on Heatran to do 50% to Talonflame, or Earth Powering it as it Roosts. Even Volcarona who has access to unnerfed Hidden Power Ground wasn't enough to prompt Heatran to run Stone Edge much at all. All Talonflame has for Heatran is boosted Brave Birds or Gem Acrobatics, the former of which can inch it into SR KO range while the latter would be nowhere near as strong the second time around (without both SD and Gem to back it up). Not to mention Stone Edge could miss and force Heatran to split its EVs and nature unfavorably. I know Roar won't work on 'last Pokemon' Talonflame, but they would be pretty heavily backed into a corner at that point.
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This is the spread.
84 Speed EV to Outspeed Jolly Scardrill with Sticky Web support (it can rapid spin it away sure, but if it comes in Talonflame he won't want to do that).
Edit : Actually I just checked again, and you need 88 Speed to Outspeed -1 Scarf Excadrill, he falls at 309 rounded down.
Otherwise it's just whatever, didn't really think too much about it honestly.
This is what I've been doing. Vaporeon is great vs talonflame and can ever help with aegislash. With the swords dance version you can scald for the burn and without SD it long takes about 40% max so you can wish stall. With talonflame, during my matches I've only taken a max of 55% off brave bird.
Upstart
Copy Cat
I am very curious to see where this pokemon ends up in the statistics. I had thought that mid-low OU however from my laddering I can definitely see mid-high OU as a possibility. It will be interesting to see how popular Talonflame remains after her new mon smell wears off.
Another interesting aspect to watch is the speed investment in high competitive play. Run Jolly to outspeed other Talonflames in the late game? Max out speed evs?
Another interesting aspect to watch is the speed investment in high competitive play. Run Jolly to outspeed other Talonflames in the late game? Max out speed evs?
The best Speed benchmark for the PokeBank-less metagame is enough Speed to outrun Jolly max Speed Excadrill: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe with Adamant. HP EVs allow you to switch in with SR up two times and the remaining 4 EVs go into Defense for priority.
Slheyas
Scarf Excadrill doesn't exist. You need 172 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature to outspeed Adamant Excadrill in sand after Sticky Web and you can't outspeed Jolly Excadrill in sand even with max Speed and Jolly.
Slheyas
Scarf Excadrill doesn't exist. You need 172 Speed EVs and a Jolly nature to outspeed Adamant Excadrill in sand after Sticky Web and you can't outspeed Jolly Excadrill in sand even with max Speed and Jolly.
I'm guessing the Scald refers to Aegislash (which doesn't appreciate it in the least unless it's lobbing Shadow Balls). In any case, Talonflame shows that it's nasty enough solo, but pure hatred given even one good boost to back it up. Optionally, it's not a bad suicide opener to smash leads with, especially if they give you a turn to Dance while laying down something. Dance/Flare Blitz/Brave Bird/U-turn (w/Gale Wings) works rather good, and I like dropping Empoleon in behind it to soak up Spikes/laugh at pretty much everything else and then Defog + SRock the opponent for good measure, and a lot of what's going after Talonflame the Iron Penguin just shrugs off on a switch.
Is Sand Rush Excadrill even a big deal anymore with the Sand Stream nerf?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 402-473 (86.82 - 102.15%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 424-499 (91.57 - 107.77%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
18%+ chance of being OHKOed, even without rocks. In simulators (or whenever we find a flying gem), Acrobatics has a solid OHKO chance without stealth rocks assist... and Vaporeon will not be considered a counter anymore.
As stated earlier: you need 86 Skarmcents or above to be a counter to Flying Gem Acrobatics, or 82 Skarmcents to counter BraveBird / FlareBlitz. Vaporeon only has 80, and can be OHKOed. See my signature for a Gen4 chart of Skarmcents...
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 424-499 (91.57 - 107.77%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
18%+ chance of being OHKOed, even without rocks. In simulators (or whenever we find a flying gem), Acrobatics has a solid OHKO chance without stealth rocks assist... and Vaporeon will not be considered a counter anymore.
As stated earlier: you need 86 Skarmcents or above to be a counter to Flying Gem Acrobatics, or 82 Skarmcents to counter BraveBird / FlareBlitz. Vaporeon only has 80, and can be OHKOed. See my signature for a Gen4 chart of Skarmcents...
Sand Rush Excadrill is everywhere because 8 turn of sand with Smooth Rock Hippowdon is still pretty reliable and a long time of sand up. And considering that Excadrill under sand is a monster, it is only logical that Hippowdon + Excadrill would be pretty common (and Hippos is a defensive monster on its own as well, checking some of the most dangerous new threats, Talonflame and Aegislash). Whether it is worth it to use enough Speed on Talonflame to outspeed Excadrill under sand after Sticky Web is another matter though...
I'm having difficulty seeing Talonflame as a set up sweeper, rather, I think it's ability could make it one of - if not THE - best revenge killers in the metagame.
The setup sweeper thing is honestly just a bonus, as Talonflame can definitely setup on the likes of Scizor or Gourgeist (especially Scizor). Talonflame is revenge killer first, sweeper second, though it can still be a super potent sweeper if Fire/Flying resists are removed.
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