"Every Rock Type" so the two that are in OU? Terrakion being neutral anyway. Are you guys even reading my post? I already said Rotom is a really good Mon, but are you denying that his usage has seen a rise this gen? When did I deny that those 3 Pokemon beat it? I don't think I did. And as I already said Stealth rocks aren't even an issue because of Defog. There are also OU Pokemon that can beat Blaziken. Slowbro, Jellicent, Vaporeon...
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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Yes we did, and we recommend that you actually learn about the metagame before making posts in the future. Simply looking anywhere in this forum would immediately invalidate your post.
You do not need a counter to Talonflame to beat it. There are plenty of checks out there that can take hits and KO back, like Slowbro, Gliscor, and Hippowdon. Surely you've heard of them? Or Thundurus, Jolteon, and Heliolisk? Those guys are running around too. And CB Talonflame gets really easy to wall based on which move it uses. Aegislash, for example, can set up on its Brave Birds. There's also Scarf Magnezone.
I don't think I need to explain anymore.
If/when Talonflame is put up for suspect it can be discussed there, but this isn't the place for it.
One note though, if we're going to play the "well you can just defog/spin SR" card I can say I can Taunt/kill your defogger, or that I can just set up SR again…this is serious Theorymon territory. Talonflame can be played around, and if the team you've designed has trouble with it, you need to adjust your team to account for it. There are tons of things that can tear apart teams if you don't have a way to check them - for example, MLucario and MPinsir.
One note though, if we're going to play the "well you can just defog/spin SR" card I can say I can Taunt/kill your defogger, or that I can just set up SR again…this is serious Theorymon territory. Talonflame can be played around, and if the team you've designed has trouble with it, you need to adjust your team to account for it. There are tons of things that can tear apart teams if you don't have a way to check them - for example, MLucario and MPinsir.
With the difference that Blaziken then just BP's out. Also, you might not be aware of it, but there's nothing keeping you from using lower tier mons in OU, there are actually quite a few rock-types who appreciate Assault Vest to the point that it turns nearly every OHKO into 2HKOes and every 2HKO into 3HKO, while trying to beat them on the physical side isn't even worth trying most times, and can hit damn hard back, so they're far from useless outside of beating talonflame.
And we're even only discussing the counters here; There is quite a high number of checks to it on top of that; Basically everything that isn't OHKOed by it and has access to a rock move is a check.
What.
Bulky with good offenses, has multiple sets, can set up either a fast or slow volt switch, has good coverage, counters more than just TFlame, was one of the most used pokes last gen, was the reason why Gastrodon usage shot up back then, and you're telling me it wouldn't be popular?
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Rotom wasn't the reason for Gastrodon's usage, that was rain teams in general. Politoed and Keldeo in particular.
Rotom-W is a great pokemon that would have high usage anyway but Talonflame existing is definitely contributing to that.
Talonflame is actually the reason physically defensive Rotom-W was so popular. Gastrodon was mostly for Politoed and Rotom-W, Keldeo brutally murders it with Secret Sword.
Rotom-W also happens to beat a lot of Rain teams, too. They just don't...really exist anymore this gen.
Gastrodon effectively walling Rotom-W for everything it uses bar the rare Hidden power grass meant it was an ideal switch-in. I know there were other factors.
I was speaking mainly of last gen :L for that one comment.
Either way, the point is, it'd still be good even if Talonflame was never used.
Huh? Gastrodon was awesome against Keldeo, just having him on your team meant they couldn't spam rain-boosted Hydro Pump which is how Keldeo wallbreaks and sweeps teams. It was even worse if Keldeo was choiced which it frequently was. Even specially defensive Gastrodon can't be 2HKOd by unboosted Sacred Sword and the standard physically defensive set avoids the 2HKO even from Specs Keldeo.
But anyway lets not get off topic this is supposed to be about Talonflame. I bet Rotom-H usage is up because of it as well.
I somewhat agree with you. I rock +def rotom just to deal with Talonflame, even though I have my own Talonflame on the same team. Reason I like Talonflame is because he basically ensures not much can sweep my team with that juicy priority it has. I have another team that deals with Talonflame to an extent but is a rain team and they are a bit trickier to run nowadays. Defensive Mandibuzz can also take on pretty much any Talonflame set as well. There are many ways around him which is why I do not think it is ban worthy, especially since its main attacks cause pretty significant recoil to itself. Is there anything else besides Rotom/Heatran/Ttar that can comfortably take Talonflame on? Electric types in the rain? Water/Rock types or any rock type in general, even tho there are literally only 2 Rock types that are in OU 0_o
Let's give Regirock some playtime!
Regirock cant do anything else except counter Talonflame. Maybe set up some rocks but that's about it. Maybe something like a stealth rocks/ twave/ Stone Edge/ Eq set might be good with teams that are susceptible to Talonflame.
Edit: As a super crazy tank you could throw an Assualt Vest on Regirock with Sand+Wish support and I think it would be incredibly hard to take down!
Can people stop making out as though I said Rotom is bad or it wouldn't seen any usage if not for Talonflame? I never said that lol. I just said its usage has definitely gone up, too the point where I am pretty sure it is at least top 5 in usage. The fact remains that it takes a lot to counter this guy a lot of the time and all teams definitely need to have Talonflame in mind when building a team. I admit I was a little angry when I wrote my first post ranting about Talonflame (due to it causing me problems all day) and I could of done it in a better way, but I think the problems I have with it are legit. The fact is, Talonflame really limits team-building. I don't know if it is ban worthy, in all honesty.
If anything Talonflame diversifies the amount of teams and styles on show because Speed is arguably no longer the stat that defines the metagame. Sweepers now need to consider typing and physical defense. He's having a very healthy effect on the metagame imo and there are literally dozens of hard counters to him so the old 'restricting team-building' excuse is bollocks.
How putting Rotom-W, Tyranitar or Heatran (3 of its top counters/checks, not only ones) on your team taking a lot especially when they are incredibly useful in the metagame not just for counter Talonflame but other Popular OU mon as well?
This isn't M-Khan where people are putting Rocky Helmets on things in order to hurt it or pulling out random RU/NU Pokemon into OU solely to beat Talonflame.
There is also a difference between easier and easy. Just because Defog has received a buff does not mean it suddenly becomes easy to remove SR. It just means it became easier. Talonflame is damn near reliant on keeping those SR off the field because it loses half its HP just switching in once and limits it's sweeping abilities simply because all of its damage comes from recoil moves.
Also people talking about Talonflame being Stealth Rock weak while that is a MAJOR problem I use it to my advangtge.
Talonflame:
252 Atk/4 HP/84 Spd/168 Spd.
Item:Sitrus Berry
Moves:Acrobatics
Flare Blitz
Bulk Up/Swords Dance
Steel Wing/U-Turn.
Acro+Sitrus Talon works for me because whenever I switch in to Stealth Rocks I get my 110 Base Power Flying move with out recoil.
Flare Blitz is just to wreck Steel Types. Bulk Up and Swords Dance is your prefreance but I use Bulk Up because that defense boost saves you.
Steel Wing and U-Turn is your choice but I run Steel Wing because I don't want to switch out my Talon if my Sitrus just got Wasted.
And of course because I don't run Roost to save me from all the deadly Priorty Brave Birds.
Talonflame:
252 Atk/4 HP/84 Spd/168 Spd.
Item:Sitrus Berry
Moves:Acrobatics
Flare Blitz
Bulk Up/Swords Dance
Steel Wing/U-Turn.
Acro+Sitrus Talon works for me because whenever I switch in to Stealth Rocks I get my 110 Base Power Flying move with out recoil.
Flare Blitz is just to wreck Steel Types. Bulk Up and Swords Dance is your prefreance but I use Bulk Up because that defense boost saves you.
Steel Wing and U-Turn is your choice but I run Steel Wing because I don't want to switch out my Talon if my Sitrus just got Wasted.
It's like any popular pokemon frankly, it's because of what other use that you build a team. And from the stats this month Rotom is more used than Talonflame.
Gastrodon is an awesome teamate, he takes care of all Talonflame's counters. How they both support each other is really awesome (how the x4 weakness of Gastrodon is managed by the x4 resistance of Talonflame seems like a sign of god, and you can eventually predict a Will O Wisp to reswitch Talon back into the game).
Gastrodon is an awesome teamate, he takes care of all Talonflame's counters. How they both support each other is really awesome (how the x4 weakness of Gastrodon is managed by the x4 resistance of Talonflame seems like a sign of god, and you can eventually predict a Will O Wisp to reswitch Talon back into the game).
EV Spread depends on what build you intend to use and what specific threats you care to use as benchmarks. Most sets will want full Attack investment (with an Adamant Nature, even though Jolly is more popular according to the stats for some reason), because Talonflame really needs the extra power to back its priority punch. You really don't need full investment in Speed because TFlame is so blazingly fast, and the remaining EVs can buffer your health to protect against recoil and make you slightly less squishy. You'll find a lot of recommendations for 164 Speed EVs, which allows you to outpace Jolly Base-100s, and this was especially important when Mega Kang was around. To beat Jolly Mega Pinsir you need 208 Speed, so that depends on how much you fear its Quick Attack. I've been using 60 Speed and 192 HP to outrun Jolly Excadrill and nail it with Flare Blitz. Just have to pick which threats you're most concerned with based on the rest of your team. The Bulk Up set is a whole different beastie, with a focus on Sp.Def and HP investment.kizux said:
Item is also a matter of personal preference. Choice Band gives you immediate power but locks you in. Sure, Brave Bird spam is the most common gameplan for Talonflame anyway, but having your utility moves at your disposal can be handy when the opportunity arises. U-turn, Will-O-Wisp, stat boosters, Flare Blitz, Roost, and even Tailwind can be valuable options. If you're trying the Bulk Up set or some form of SubRoost you'll want Leftovers, and I've seen some people run it with Swords Dance as well. The Swords Dance cleaner set can use Life Orb, but that recoil stacks up VERY quickly, so you can even opt for Sharp Beak or Sky Plate to give your BBs a little extra power without completely burning yourself out. For a Pokemon with a niche that's so straightforward at first glance, Talonflame has a lot of viable options for customization.
The ladder is pretty dumb. I swear half the people there are running 252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP Jolly. Higher up its worth speed creeping and such for Talonflame v Talonflame matchups, but early on I don't even bother trying, just switch to your counter.
I've had much success running:
Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant w/ Gale Wings
252ATT/252SPEED
Aerobatics
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Swords Dance
I usually buff with SD and run Brave Bird until I activate the Sitrus, and then use AB primarily. It works well with letting me use the recoil attacks with slight recovery, but also lets me have a consistant damage output. This also also for easier switch-ins to Rocks and such.
Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant w/ Gale Wings
252ATT/252SPEED
Aerobatics
Brave Bird
Flare Blitz
Swords Dance
I usually buff with SD and run Brave Bird until I activate the Sitrus, and then use AB primarily. It works well with letting me use the recoil attacks with slight recovery, but also lets me have a consistant damage output. This also also for easier switch-ins to Rocks and such.
Speed creep can be an unfortunate thing. Especially since Talonflame would really like to have the extra padding on his HP to help him stay alive for one Brave Bird more or allow the opportunity for a Roost. All it takes is one clever-clogs tacking on a few extra EVs to outpace the standard of the competition, and soon everyone is maxing out on a mon that otherwise wouldn't need to max out.
How common is Jolly Excadrill anyway? I thought that most of them opt for Adamant, or even a bulky set?
IMO Talonflame is just fine running 0 Speed. The situations where the Speed investment actually matters are few and far between, and you're better off employing a check that can actually switch in.
IMO Talonflame is just fine running 0 Speed. The situations where the Speed investment actually matters are few and far between, and you're better off employing a check that can actually switch in.
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