Team building in D/P - easier than Adv?

Glen ^^

I'm frequently playing Adv, and, when I finally decided to change my team, I noticed how much effort we needed to put into our teams.

Before, we had to make sure (almost) everything could be countered somehow. Revenge killing wasn't a valid strategy, since about 80% of the major threats had 100% counters, like Swampert to TTar.

Also, the main thing to consider when building a team was how to break walls. Every physical sweeper had problems taking on the likes of Skarmory, Forretress and even Cloyster. Of course, special sweepers had no chance against Bliss. You could also see some other effective walls in Regirock, Rgice, Registeel, Weezing, etc.


Well, and now in D/P, this is not the case. Teams seem to be so easy to build, as walls are no more an issue and Pokemon that sits there taking hits are invitation for some "Stop it now or lose" threats.

Specialized walls like Skarmory, Forretress and Hippowdon can die from ridiculously powerful physical hits.

Pokemon that where difficult to take down previously, like Articuno, Cloyster, Gyarados and Regice are destroyed by Stealth Rocks and the new overpowered moves, even if they resist it.

While there still have immunities, you can't always bring in your Gengar into Heracross, for example: you still have a good chance of getting killed. If he isn't Choiced, your Gengar will be killed.
Now you know that Heracross' set at the cost of a Pokemon.

This somewhat created an excessive guessing game. It's not prediction; you have no way to know nor predict the opponent's set, a simple item will change everything. This even happens with Pokemon that have about six useful moves, like Garchomp.


My point is: offense was made so powerful in D/P that team building is no longer one of key aspects that divides the newbie from a skilled player.
 
I think offensive team building is definitely easier. There are a lot of fast, powerful wall breakers that can just batter through any attempt to stop them. Sacrificing pokemon to wear down a powerful attacker is a standard thing to do now. What happens when a team can pull out two or three such attacks in a game? It wins. Hence why mixed teams don't work so well anymore, and you see pure offense and pure stall teams competitively.
 
I've seen a huge difference in team making. Making teams does seem easier in d/p. Or maybe it was because I was just a normal kid, and actually got into competative ivs/evs/etc during 3rd gen. Which slowed me down since I really didn't know what countered what. And now that I'm experienced in what abilities pokemon have, what common movesets are and matters like that.
 
well i have to disagree with you, with the new powerful moves in D/P, the choice items and with all those new pokes of fourth generation, building a competitive team is more difficult now than in any past game, i think that pokemon is more complex than in the past for sure, i dont see how is easier to build a team with so many things to counter and the changing metagame, i think that if build a team is so easy and a newbie can make a team as good as one of a skilled player at least in paper, then there is no need of a tutor apprentice program or a rate my team thread.
 
Team building is far more difficult in DP because there are more options. I completely disagree with the notion that "defensive play is dead" for fairly obvious reasons. The thought that "I don't have to worry about getting around big walls anymore!" is what makes a well-built stall team so devastating.
 
as obi stated a well designed stall team wins a lot of battles in D/P, im sure you have heard about obi`s stall teams, believe me there is no way a newbie with a bad team can defeat an expert.
 
I never battled in ADV so I don't know much, but what I've heard is that most teams were pretty much, Skarm Bliss, Snorlax, T-Tar, Mence etc... With the new Special / Physical Split, New moves have been added to aid wall breaking, but that just makes the staller even more determined. Skilled prediction can still get you around strong physical attackers, apart from real crap like no guard machamp, guarenteed confusion is just gay... anyway moving on...

I find that Team Building in DP is actually very hard. The old Phrase, you can't counter all the metagame all the time comes into mind. Just because Hera can 2HKO Skarm with the new improved CloseCombat, doesn't mean that the new addition Giscor has been added. The simple argument that I follow is that the metagame has increased in size, so have the options, and the number of threats you need to counter, making team building harder.
 
Lul, ADV being easier, team-making wise, than D/P...What a joke.

It's FAR more difficult, really, by far.In RSE, you just picked the best 6 counters to the best 6 pokemons, and used some prediction.

If I may say so myself, a DP battle almost looks like dancing; more of waiting for the right moment to attack, unlike in RSE.Send out, like you said, Swampert into Tyrannitar, and Tyrannitar is practically dead, unless he switches of course.

Edit: I dream of making an extremely-good defensive team on Shoddy/Wi-Fi, and use it as good or better than a "normal" offensive team, relatively.
 
Hmm, I don't exactly see how the extra offense in D/P or the less predictability makes team building easier. If anything, I think it makes it harder. Since in Adv, with those seemingly impenetrable walls, you could stick those walls in, and most of your worries were just countering them. However, now, with all the new things to consider about, like stealth rock, trick room, and more first-priority moves, you need to make sure your team is somewhat balanced too (imo). And about how you can't predict, you can still use Protect to scout for moves. If you could put some more examples of how moves are overpowered or situtations in which walls are crushed that easily, I might be more convinced.
 
Obi said:
Team building is far more difficult in DP because there are more options. I completely disagree with the notion that "defensive play is dead" for fairly obvious reasons. The thought that "I don't have to worry about getting around big walls anymore!" is what makes a well-built stall team so devastating.
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This, basically.

Building a fairly even offensive/defensive team in ADV was always relatively easy for me, but in D/P it's a lot harder to find that balance IMO. There are too many threats for a balanced team to get around, if you've got half a defensive team, a full on offensive team can probably destroy you. With half an offensive team, a full on defensive team will most likely destroy you.

You're usually forced to build one of the other tese days, though it is possible to get a slight balance sometimes. Whether full offence or defence is better, I'm not sure.
 
In ADV, most pokemon had 1 or two roles that you could choose from, but in DP all the good pokemon have 3 to 5 movesets to choose from. ADV never had the "threat list" either, since offensive pokes weren't strong enough to overwhelm walls with just a misplay. You could cover half the physical offensive spectrum with milotic.

There was also no such thing as heraweak or gyaraweak or stealth rock weak, unless you were using a bunch of BLs or something.
 
TVboyCanti said:
In ADV, most pokemon had 1 or two roles that you could choose from, but in DP all the good pokemon have 3 to 5 movesets to choose from. ADV never had the "threat list" either, since offensive pokes weren't strong enough to overwhelm walls with just a misplay. You could cover half the physical offensive spectrum with milotic.
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Haha, true.Hence why I had one in almost all my teams.And Blissey can cover the whole Special part.
 
Obi said:
Team building is far more difficult in DP because there are more options. I completely disagree with the notion that "defensive play is dead" for fairly obvious reasons. The thought that "I don't have to worry about getting around big walls anymore!" is what makes a well-built stall team so devastating.
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I don't think that defensive play is dead. But is arguably a lot harder to make a good stall team than an all offense one, since you won't be revenge killing much and will worry about taking a final hit before taking down the attacker. and, like I tried to explain, the problem lies there; taking hits.

I'd like to draw our attentions to this warstory and the problems it had to take out Gyarados.

Well, Jira won, but what if Lucario could Swords Dance?

swordmaster789 said:
Hmm, I don't exactly see how the extra offense in D/P or the less predictability makes team building easier. If anything, I think it makes it harder. Since in Adv, with those seemingly impenetrable walls, you could stick those walls in, and most of your worries were just countering them. However, now, with all the new things to consider about, like stealth rock, trick room, and more first-priority moves, you need to make sure your team is somewhat balanced too (imo). And about how you can't predict, you can still use Protect to scout for moves. If you could put some more examples of how moves are overpowered or situtations in which walls are crushed that easily, I might be more convinced.
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This is why I think it's easier to build a team: as long as you hit the opponent, you'll be at advantage. So the sweeper choices are obvious; the more it can hit, the better. You don't see things with poor coverage and low base power moves anymore, like Raikou.
Trick Room and weather teams are destroyed when the effect ends, that's when the "normal" team will dominate the game again.

Speaking of moves, there's the likes of Close Combat and Stone Edge, that offers excellent coverage and power, while in Adv we had only Focus Punch/Brick Break and Rock Slide.
There's Outrage, even resisted, will hurt a lot. Same with Flare Blitz and Brave Bird.
Those moves coupled with entry hazards take enough to bring your supposed wall into a 2HKO range.

In ADV, most pokemon had 1 or two roles that you could choose from, but in DP all the good pokemon have 3 to 5 movesets to choose from. ADV never had the "threat list" either, since offensive pokes weren't strong enough to overwhelm walls with just a misplay. You could cover half the physical offensive spectrum with milotic.
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This is exactly why I think it's harder to build a team in Adv!
You had to find a way to overcome those walls, so switching and prediction was a lot more important. And to do this you need a good, not-so-standard team, of course.

It wasn't this extreme. Milotic could easily be 2HKOed by random Choice Banders if there was some Spikes on your field, some Pokemon carried Fire Blast for Skarmory, and so on.
 
Glen ^^ said:
Speaking of moves, there's the likes of Close Combat and Stone Edge, that offers excellent coverage and power, while in Adv we had only Focus Punch/Brick Break and Rock Slide.
There's Outrage, even resisted, will hurt a lot. Same with Flare Blitz and Brave Bird.
Those moves coupled with entry hazards take enough to bring your supposed wall into a 2HKO range.

This is exactly why I think it's harder to build a team in Adv!
You had to find a way to overcome those walls, so switching and prediction was a lot more important. And to do this you need a good, not-so-standard team, of course.

It wasn't this extreme. Milotic could easily be 2HKOed by random Choice Banders if there was some Spikes on your field, some Pokemon carried Fire Blast for Skarmory, and so on.
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Eh... But while it may have been difficult to overcome walls before, doesn't that preeminence of walls make them much more standard in the Adv metagame, thus reducing the amount of choices one had to make? And doesn't saying you had to have a good not standard team sorta contradict what you're saying?

And in D/P, with all those new, improved moves you're talking about, don't they simply complicate things even more? You have to find a way to deal with the strong moves. And while you're mentioning it, brick break was a much more standard fighting move in Adv; so, now that it's outclassed, doesn't that mean you can Pseudo pass reflect/light screen now safely, increasing defensive capability as well?

And generally speaking, with all the new pokes, moves, and abilities, doesn't more options usually lead to more difficult team building?
 
I never played ADV, so I can't actually directly compare the two, but I do disagree with "Team building isn't one of the key aspects dividing newbies and skilled players".

With all of the options D/P has available, having a strong team is very important in my opinion. Not only do you need ways to work through or around the major threats that are largely uncounterable, but you need to be able to execute your own strategy at the same time. This is where the whole aspect of team building and synergy comes in, as strong teams will do this, and will perform much better than teams that aren't built as well.
 
swordmaster789 said:
And in D/P, with all those new, improved moves you're talking about, don't they simply complicate things even more? You have to find a way to deal with the strong moves. And while you're mentioning it, brick break was a much more standard fighting move in Adv; so, now that it's outclassed, doesn't that mean you can Pseudo pass reflect/light screen now safely, increasing defensive capability as well?
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Jesus Christ, I never saw it that way.Now the Fighting move of preference doesn't break reflect/light screen...Eh, that's nice.

Also, I concur with his whole post.
 
to me, it's not so much the moves or pokemon that makes it 'harder to build teams,' it's the items. in rs, you had no life orb, so no worries about that extra 30%. no choice scarf/specs, so no suprises out the ass. no yache or shuca or wacan or occa or any of that shit either. other than that, new pokes are new pokes.
 
Eh... But while it may have been difficult to overcome walls before, doesn't that preeminence of walls make them much more standard in the Adv metagame, thus reducing the amount of choices one had to make? And doesn't saying you had to have a good not standard team sorta contradict what you're saying?
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It's because people caught on and started to prepare themselves against said walls (the sole reason Magneton was used, Mcgar and Tyraniboah created, for example) that you had to consider using not-so-standards.

And in D/P, with all those new, improved moves you're talking about, don't they simply complicate things even more? You have to find a way to deal with the strong moves.
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I hope to test a SRless metagame someday. With more types free to switch in without all this risk, maybe the metagame will turn into the stall fest we all loved from GSC, even with those new moves.

doesn't that mean you can Pseudo pass reflect/light screen now safely, increasing defensive capability as well?
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Great point.

And generally speaking, with all the new pokes, moves, and abilities, doesn't more options usually lead to more difficult team building?
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IMO, it's just harder to make choices, not a sucessful team. Switching around some components will change what you'll counter better, but as long as the strategy is intact, the team will do fine.

I never played ADV, so I can't actually directly compare the two, but I do disagree with "Team building isn't one of the key aspects dividing newbies and skilled players".

With all of the options D/P has available, having a strong team is very important in my opinion. Not only do you need ways to work through or around the major threats that are largely uncounterable, but you need to be able to execute your own strategy at the same time. This is where the whole aspect of team building and synergy comes in, as strong teams will do this, and will perform much better than teams that aren't built as well.
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The game now gives the player more ways to work around, like Choice Scarf, Focus Sash, new priority moves, Expert Belt (Weavile just came to mind) so it's not very hard to improvise in a pinch, even with teams that have bad synergy. Doesn't matter that the opponent have three Nasty Plots on their all powerful Azelf; once your Choice Scarfer comes in, Azelf stops, and gives you room to breath and proceed to execute the team's strategy. Or just firing off attacks if the team's just 6 OUs grouped together.

But in Adv working around wasn't an option. Set up Pokemon was the biggest threats in the game, and letting one do so means a nasty 6x0.
 
Glen ^^ said:
It's because people caught on and started to prepare themselves against said walls (the sole reason Magneton was used, Mcgar and Tyraniboah created, for example) that you had to consider using not-so-standards.

-Well, the way you say it, it seems like those pokes were simply "standard-counters." In D/P, you can't really find counters so easily, due to the diversity of items, moves, etc.

The game now gives the player more ways to work around, like Choice Scarf, Focus Sash, new priority moves, Expert Belt (Weavile just came to mind) so it's not very hard to improvise in a pinch, even with teams that have bad synergy. Doesn't matter that the opponent have three Nasty Plots on their all powerful Azelf; once your Choice Scarfer comes in, Azelf stops, and gives you room to breath and proceed to execute the team's strategy. Or just firing off attacks if the team's just 6 OUs grouped together.
But in Adv working around wasn't an option. Set up Pokemon was the biggest threats in the game, and letting one do so means a nasty 6x0.

- But doesn't that mean that Adv was much more simple, with fully boosted pokemon dominating? In D/P, you have to consider using such items like a scarf or first-priority items to counter those. And if you couldn't work around it in Adv, I don't see how team building has enough significance then in Adv, by that logic...
And as for Choice scarf and such items, they may help out alot, but they complicated things anymore. Choice scarf prevents sweeping very well; once you reveal you have it, walls destroy that poke. Life Orb also complicates the game too, since the damage taken should be considered by people adding walls to their team. Regardless of whatever improvising you can do, you still can't go far with an unsynched team.
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It's easier to build a bullshit team that will win into the top 10% with just Heatran, Celebi, T-Tar, Chomp, Zapdos, and filler.
It's harder to build an original team that does anything other than get stomped.
 
I don't know whether DP team-building is 'harder' than RSE, but I don't think it really matters. What does matter is that team-building is an ENORMOUS part of DP, and that's a fact.

You don't need any more evidence than some of those losses I'm sure we're all victim of (specifically those early ones with a new team you're tweaking.) I cannot count the amount of games I've lost simply because my team did not have the tools to win that match. I lost these games because my team-building skills are far behind my playing skill. Team-building is clearly a large enough factor in DP, if it was any larger I think the game would be borderline auto-pilot.

If anything I'd argue that team-building is too large a factor.
 
No, ADV did have an extensive threat list, that needed covering. Cast your minds back! Look to the articles on the main pages of Smogon.

TBH Ive never really gotten into D/P, my brain fried at the physical special split! Played a bit, with a Typhlosion Eruption based team, worked nicely. But that was early metagame.


Two Points I would like to make:
1. Do not forget/underestimate BP teams. Offensive and Defencive I read mentioned, but dont forget BP.

2. I agree that I would also like to see a metagame tried out with Stealth Rock gone. Would losen things up a bit: but I dont think we will quite ever get the G/S/C stall orgasm back again.
 
Glen ^^ said:
This somewhat created an excessive guessing game. It's not prediction; you have no way to know nor predict the opponent's set, a simple item will change everything.

My point is: offense was made so powerful in D/P that team building is no longer one of key aspects that divides the newbie from a skilled player.
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That "guessing game" is why this is more difficult to build a team effectively. You could be fine, but you see a set you've never seen before, or even thought about before. The yachechomp ruins you, too bad, but you gotta live on. You can still have a defensive game, but you arguably have to be smarter about it so you dont send in a skarmory to a garchomp thinking it was gonna use outrage and it uses fire blast.

I do find that sometimes I'll think that it's easier, but then i realize that 1. I'm more used to this gen atm and 2. i change my team far more often as a manner of adapting and usually it isn't as drastic a change as it was in adv

plus, more options in most everyway is more variety which SHOULD lead to more strategies, which can make things difficult
 
I think building a team in this generation is much easier, because you understand their are way too many threats to counter, so you just counter the major ones. With all these new pokemon, just a few walls, a lot of resistances, and some good prediction is the recipe for beating these offensive powerhouses. Offensive team building is actually a little harder in the sense that there are too many to choose from. Do I want to sweep with DD Dragonite or use SD Garchomp? Should I use Choice Specs Lucario or SD Lucario? Should I use Mamoswine or Garchomp? Etc, etc, etc.
 
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