Team "offense is so sexy ~_~" [RMT]

gec

gec

pharos
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hey.
.......

Introooooooooo.
So after playing Stall for a while, I decided to come back to the style I really enjoyed - Offense.

I've always been an offensive player and I think that I'm better using them, so I decided to make a new team as such. Results were pretty good infact :)

Played: 40
Wins: 34
Loss: 6

Win percentage - 85%.
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The original premise of this team was not actually based upon Salamence. That wasn't the starting point of this team funnily enough.

I'm willing to change pretty much anything given that there is solid reasoning behind it. Thanks. Here we go.

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infernape.png

Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Fake Out
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock

Choosing a lead is something I believe to be the hardest part of Team Building. There is a lot to consider for such a spot. I wanted something that could:

-Lay down SR
-Somewhat defeat other leads
-Pack a lot of power :D
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Infenrape fit the bill nicely. Fake out ruins the sashes of all leads, such as Azelf. Also Fake Out helps to scout whther an opponent is staying in or not. This is important because people with balls like to keep their lead Tyranitars into my Infernape while I SR so they can Earthquake. Sounds stupid of me not to just Close Combat but I really need SR down.


magnezone.png

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 20 Atk/236 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Explosion
- Thunderbolt

Choice Scarf Magnezone is a great check to stuff like SDLucario, Any sort of Scizor and a lot of other Pokemon due to his amazing resistances. Magnezone brings a lot of synergy to this team. Between this and Salamence, there is a resistance to every single type in the game which is rather good.

Magnezone helps eliminate Bronzong and Skarmory which are two major threats against my set up. For example, Bronzong can survive a Flamethrower and Gyro Ball my Salamence for the KO, meaning my plan is gone. Skarmory doesn't so much stop a Mence sweep, but the Swampert sweep, as it can just Whirlwind my Curses away.

Just to be clear I didn't use Zapdos because 3 SR weaks without a Spinner really takes it's toll. Also the synergy this brought was too good to pass up.


heatran.png

Heatran (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 24 HP/224 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Earth Power / Taunt?
- Fire Blast
- Substitute
- Toxic

This is the first Pokemon I choose for my team and for good reason. This set is incredible as a Bulky Water Lure. The point of this set is to come in on something like Scizor or whatever you think will run. Set up a Substitute, hopefully luring out a Bulky Water or Zapdos or something. Simply just Toxic as they break your Substitute and repeat Substitute as they keep attacking. It sounds tedious but it really does work.

Although I've never tried out Taunt, it seems like it could work. When I Toxic a Vaporeon or a Blissey, theoretically they can just rinse Wish or Softboiled, stalling out the Toxic pretty much. Taunt would help me defeat Blissey one on one and could hamper the recover of such Pokemon as Vaporeon/Milotic. Suggestions?

Currently testing over Heatran - Porygon 2 (SUCCESSFUL) and Scarf Jirachi.


shaymin_sky.png

Shaymin-s @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Leech Seed
- Air Slash
- Substitute
- Seed Flare

Ahhh Skymin. I needed something to defeat Blissey and Bulky waters incase Heatran doesn't work (which is rare. Due to this, Skymin seems to be the weakest member of my team. I'm willing to replace it to benefit this team tbh. I don't really have much to say for this :/.

Currently testing over Skymin - Celebi (Scarf and Bulky variants)


salamence.png

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 232 Atk/252 Spd/24 SAtk
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Flamethrower
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Star of the show you may say. DDMence is just a whole lot better really. Although it's pretty common that doesn't take away its effectiveness, seeing as nothing can safely switch into a +1 LO Outrage (heck even Heatran and Metagross are 2HKOed).


swampert.png

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/180 Def/76 SDef
Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall

Final Member of the team. I needed a Status absorber, and a back up sweeper. Swampert is an extraordinary Pokemon to fit the bill for both of these factors as this set is just as effective, perhaps even more effective then Crocune. Something Swampert has over Crocune is the single weakness. This means that no Electric pokemon (bar those with HP Grass) can defeat this, only shit like Celebi can (which is easily taken care of by Heatran and Skymin). Good stuff. Also Swampert mends issues I have with stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran.

.......


Things I have problems with:

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-Gyarados - I have no reliable way to take this down. If it's a BulkyGyara, Skymin and Magnezone can outspeed even after one DD and kill it, but if it's DDLO, I have to stall it out with LO, which is hard because it packs a lot of power.

-Scarf or offensive Zapdos - Yeah. Tbolt/Heatwave/HP Grass ones hurt. A lot. They can OHKO-2HKO everything on this team.

.......


How I built this team:

Building this team wasn't too hard but it wasnt easy. I usually have building problems but this was actually alright.

I actually started this team with Heatran. I saw Panamaxis use a Substitute/Toxic/Fire Blast/Earth Power and once he explained it's function to me, I was very much fascinated by it. It sounded like a great way to lure out Bulky Waters.

Next I thought about what draws in Bulky Waters. What would benefit from having that threat potentially eliminated? I came up with DDMence. It had a great upgrade from Platinum in the form of Outrage. Although this means that BulkyWaters cannot switch in as easily now, they still can defeat it. DDMence also happened to be one of my favourite Pokemon, so I decided this team will be centered around that mostly.

When it came to assessing the reliablity of my plan, I saw a few holes. Mainly I wanted some back up incase Heatran failed his role. I then thought about something that could defeat Bulky Waters too, but more reliably. SubSeed Skymin came to mind. I also liked that Ground immunity. Finally I could draw in fire moves for Heatran which is a nice bonus :).

Looking at my team, I lacked a good way of taking down some Swords Dance Pokemon, such as SDScizor and SDLucario. Zapdos was such a Pokemon and would appear to be perfect, but I was drawn away from it. This is because of that SR weak, which would have brought my team to 3 SR weaks. Also, it could be 2HKOed by an SD Extremespeed which is rather frightening. I heard people say that a Scarfed Magnezone was a great check against Scizor and co. I decided to throw him in as his weaknesses were pretty much covered in the core of Heatran and Skymin. Member number 4 was done.

I didn't have a lead at this point which is something I was suprised about as I always choose a lead first. My reasons for choosing Infernape are explained above. I really wanted something for SR and to destroy other Suicide leads. Also Blaze Fire Blast is awesome :D.

Finally, I looked at the 5 members. Heatran. Tyranitar. 2 Pokemon which looked as though they could destroy my whole team flat out. I needed a check against these two in my last slot, as well as a status absorber and a back up plan. Swampert came to mind. It's a great counter to these two threats and CurseTalk is amazing. It's cool :D

So I went off and built the team on Shoddy. The results were great :). But I wanted the team to be greater, so help me smogon!

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Well, i had a very similar team, and it worked very well

I suggest Scarfmin: a salamence like yours, seems to be very dangerous for your team, since it can OHKO all your team with EQ/Outrage, and you have nothing faster and no priority moves, so a scarfmin can help you revenge kill it, and can also help with other DD pokes like Gyarados, and also 2HKO offensive Zapdos. You can also kill a scarftran which thinks he is faster
 
Gyaradossssssss!

After a single Dragon Dance it will OHKO Infernape, Magnezone, and Heatran. Even at +0 it will OHKO Salamence and Shaymin-S, and Swampert takes a relatively big 60.89% - 71.53% from that +1 Life Orb Waterfall, as well as 40.84% - 48.27% if you are on +1 too, after a Curse. Not a good prospect ):

The best thing to do in my opinion would be to either switch Swampert, Shaymin-S or Magnezone. Magnezone could leave your team for one of the new Rotom forms which also helps against Scizor and friends, especially if you use RestTalk. Otherwise something like Choice Scarf Jirachi with Hidden Power Fire could possibly work over Magnezone, also outspeeding +1 Gyarados. You lose some Special Attack though, but gain the possibility of a quick U-turn if you want it, or Trick. Sure you lose Explosion, but unless Blissey carries Grass Knot, Swampert should be winning out. I wouldn't say you struggle to beat Bronzong or Skarmory anyway, if your Swampert can beat the opponent's team but they keep Whirlwinding you, just kill off the rest of your team until Swampert is left. Standard Bronzong's Explosion will manage 79.95% - 94.06% if you have no Curses, so if you get a couple you won't be struggling. Plus it possibly opens a sweep for Salamence's Outrage. A 269 SpA Vaporeon manages 17.33% - 20.54% to Swampert with Ice Beam, and 25.99% - 30.69% with Surf, so if worst comes to worst you can hopefully, eventually, force it to struggle.
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That was really, really funky by the way, it looks awesome. Nicely presented RMT, a pleasure to read. (Also the first I have rated for a while too :/).

Good luck dude!
 
If a standard Skymin (Air Slash/Earth Power/Seed Flare/Substitute) comes in, let's say on Swampert, this team is finished. I understand why you don't want to use Zapdos, but you probably need it.
 
@ M_Dragon - It's MJ from Shoddy man ;). and thanks for your suggestion, I'll be sure to test that (Y)

@ Twash - yeah, Gyarados is a bit :@@@@@@. but I dont really wanna replace Magnezone, it is such an integral part of my team. I'd be happy to replace something like Skymin, so what do you suggest over that if anything?
 
Defensive moltres can take just about everything skymin can throw at it

- Roar
- Flamethrower
- Will-o-wisp
- Roost

maybe a bold nature on that, also that will help on your 3 pokemon ground weakness
 
@ komodo - replacing skymin with that opens up a third water weakness, and ive lost skymin as my water resist.
 
maybe you could replace skymin with some sort of celebi varient. offensive calm mind, defensive seeder or scarf could all work very nicely. the last two would help with your gyarados problem and all three are deadly to bulky water. it also eliminates one of your SR weaknesses.

i would suggest possibly even using a SD baton pass celebi, but the threat of scizor coming in and fucking you up with pursuit is too high these days.
 
your heatran may lure in a bulky water and than he toxics but bulky waters often carry rest, like rotom-W, milotic, and suicune, all of whom can just rest away toxic and stall you out with surf until you cant sub, taunt prevents them from resting and although tentacruel will beat heatran if it stays in salamence, skymin, and magnezone can keep him in check, or if you change the nature and spread you could kill the bulky water with explosion,
 
Why not replace Skymin with Celebi. Celebi can runn Leech Seed and Substitute if you want or you could run a standard defensive Celebi or even a CM Seed Celebi, they will all fit the bill and give you something to do against Gyarados. Like I said Cm Celebi will allow Celebi to fit the offensive theme of this team, and still allows you to pack the bulk needed to beat gyarados. Its still not the perfect defense, so you might want to consider something like Stone Edge on Swampert ocer Sleep Talk. Curse Pert is pretty Bulky and if you set it up at the right time, doesn't mind resting too much, it would just be nice to have insurance against it incase Celebi gets Pursuited. TTar + Gyara is pretty common, removing all problematic mons such as Starmie Celebi etc...

Endeavor Ape could be a good idea. It will draw out things like Bulky waters that you can surely cripple with Endeavor after they activate your sash. You ask what the common switch in to INfernape are, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Cresselia etc... A Blaze Fire Blast still won't do much to them bar Perhaps Cresselia, but there you go, Its really a matter of taste and If you prefer the lure of Heatran and the defensive power of Celebi and feel they are enough theres no problem :P Just something to think about as it can give you a very solid offensive way to take down walls ape cant otherwise beat.

If you want to do something about Zapdos why not run a more Bulky Heatran, Here's some calcs (assuming Timid LO Zapdos) defensive Zapdos will be even easier to switch in on and toxic, Sub Roar is totally walled by swampert who can at least break the sub before being roared out:

Modest 24 HP / 0 SpD: 57-68%
Modest 252 / 0 SpD: 49-58%
Modest 4 HP / 252 SpD: 46-55%
Calm 40 HP / 220 SpD: 42-50%

This wont totally solve the problem but will allow you to at least revenge with little worry using Tran on LO varients, you will easily be able to switch into defensive 'Dos and Toxic. This will be made so much easier with the SR you already have :D

(Just realised Utifier came up with Celebi too :) Great minds think alike. I can't think of anmything else more specific right nnow, but If I do I'll be sure to come back. If you have any other problems come back too!
 
Thanks for the rates people, especially Goldfan.

I dunno, I'm not too keen on Celebi. I've never really considered it for this team but seeing as someone else suggested it, I will try that too.

As for endeavor Infernape, I've used it before and tbh nobody switches in Vaporeon and the likes on a Lead Infernape. It's mostly Starmie, and that isn't a problem at all tbh. I'd rather have CC and Fire Blast ;D.

Thank you guys, keep them coming!
 
Now that Heatran is so very common its nice to use it as a lure, not the common predictable one - but how about HP [Grass] over Earth Power? It definetly wouldn't help one bit v.s. the blissey thing, but if your annoyed at Vaporeons simply Wishing off the damage and you dont want to stall til you have like 10% off... HP [Grass] is decent-it also destroys Swampert, who can Roar you out if you have a substitute or Earthquake you. The final bulky water i can think of that it would be handy against is Milotic-RestTalking Milotic that can delicately take off your Toxics and proceed to Surfing you in their sleep. I dont know the perfect damage it does.. but it might help.
 
GEC, I've been shamelessly using your team on ladder, and I can say with a certainty that it is an excellently built team =).

You have everything planned out really well offensively. I know that in battle you should aim on executing your own strategy rather than try and counter your opponent's - that you should not play a step behind - but the truth of the matter is you need to keep in mind common offensive threats while building it.

Gyarados and Salamence both give your team immense problems. You choose to use an Infernape lead, and both the aforementioned pokemon resist both Close Combat and Fire Blast. This means that more often than not an opposing Gyarados or Salamence switches into ape right off the bat. Once they get a DD off, they can O-2HKO your entire team. The only thing that lives is Swampert, who can do absolutely nothing to them with Waterfall.

When I was using your team as it is now, my win ratio with it was pretty poor. However, I changed the team around to my liking by replacing Heatran with Porygon2. This pokemon is about the best possible counter to Gyarados and Salamence around. The set I used was:

Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Bold - Trace
252 HP, 216 Def, 40 SpA

- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Recover

Porygon2 Intimidates Gyarados and Salamence upon switch in. Here are some damage calcs:

-1 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall: 25.7 - 30.5%
neutral Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall: 38.5 - 45.7%

So if you switch into a Waterfall, you take less than a third damage. If they DD as you switch in and then Waterfall, you still take less than half.

-1 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage: 40.9 - 48.1%
neutral Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage: 61.2 - 72.2%

If you switch into an Outrage, you take less than half your health damage. If they DD first then Outrage, you still survive and get to attack.

In return, Porygon2 does:

Ice Beam vs 4HP Salamence: 108.4 - 127.7%
Thunderbolt vs 4HP Gyarados: 90.4 - 106.0%

So basically, Porygon2 solves your entire Salamence/Gyarados weak, and counters Heatran (copies Flash Fire), Jolteon (a Skymin revenge killer), Vaporeon (Infernape and Swampert counter), and Dugtrio (Magnezone revenge killer). Its Ice Beam/Thunderbolt is also powerful enough to break Kingdra's subs. It can still Toxic all bulky waters and walls such as Hippowdon, basically everything Heatran can do but better.

Porygon2 is perfect for your team. I noticed an improvement in the win ratio straightaway, so I hope you try him out =). I also hated having 2 x4 Ground weaks in addition to Infernape, so Porygon2 really helped. It will still help your offensive team win in the end by weakening opponents with Toxic, and is great for taking out walls that Skymin and Magnezone can't.

LR.
 
Don't put taunt on heatran. You need earthpower to take on all those heatran that switch in expecting a fire move. Hp grass does like 30% to vaporeon so I would recommend not using that.

So If gyara / Mence gets a dd, its probably game. To fix this you could try celebi or P-2 (as people have already suggested) but if you want to keep the offensive pace try scarf jirachi with: Trick / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Iron Head. Check out the platinum updates for the evs (i can't remember them) BUT do not use the evs suggested. Look through the set comments to find the alternate ev spread and use that (which outspeeds max speed mence after a DD i think its something like: Jolly , 252 attack, 110 hp , rest in speed).

You still have magnezone for bulky waters and thunderpunch hurts. You're kind of weak to curse resttalk pert (the one you're using now) if you replace it, but you can always trick jirachis scarf onto it as a last resort.

Lol at vaporeon wishing off toxic damage. You do realise that poison damage increases every turn?
 
Never saw LR's rate until I saw him using (a slightly tweaked version of) my team on Shoddy.

I must thank you for the exceptional rate. Porygon 2 has to be one of my most favourite Pokemon ever, and the way you put it, it seems like I have no choice to use it as it will make my team better. Very nice rate, thank you! And thanks for:

and I can say with a certainty that it is an excellently built team =).
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Panamaxis, thank you for your opinions and input. you supported P2 just ike LR did and with a guy of your talent, I have to try it out. I like Scarf Jirachi a lot, so Ill test that too :)

Keep them coming!
 
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