Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Froctopus]

This mf will never play OU again if Dragonite has the little Normal symbol under its name in team preview

This mf is getting mad at a Spheal Poster

 

[RoiDadadou]

This mf will never play OU again if Dragonite has the little Normal symbol under its name in team preview

Yes, it's too dumb to happen

 

[Alternator]

I was thinking and even though often it doesnt result in anything, this time i think i came up with an interesting point (that i havent seen anyone give yet, scream at me if im wrong)

The other mechanics that are brought up often are: Megas, ZMoves and DMax

Megas and ZMoves were fine while dyna wasnt, what could be the reason for that? In my opinion it boils down to two factors:
With Megas and ZMoves the user had to choose their respective pokemon before or they at least had to put some kind of dedication to the pokemon they wanted it possible with, i think you know what i mean: You needed the respective item. Would megas be overbearing if they didnt need an item? (No im not bringing up mega-ray, dont worry)

I would never want to fight a life orb or boots mega chary or a life orb mega zam, choice scarf mega medi or mvoir, leftovers or helmet mega sableye, Scarf/band/lorb/lefties/ebelt/subsalac mega heracross and so on, on their own they are fine and balanced in their own way but give them an item and good night, thats why you would rarely see two possible megas with stones on the same team (like gyara and ttarfor example) because items are so important in pokemon and if you give it up for something, it should be good
ZMoves as well, kommo o is okay with its z-move but give it a life orb or something similar and nothing wants to fight in, Magearna with a ZMove and shuca/lorb/lefties/av, weavile with ZMove and choice band/boots would be stupid


Dynamax took away the dedication needed to use an item or make your choice on which pokemon to use it on in the tb because you could use it always and it even stacked with some items (Looking at you, life orb and weakpol) and guess which gimmick was the first to be overwhelmingly overbearing? The one where you could use it at any time in the game to just start winning because you feel like it, no matter the pokemon and its item, so i ask the question: would Tera be fair if you werent allowed to have an item on the pokemon you want to tera? (Or make an unknockable and untrickable item like ZStones and Mega stones were)

I myself am a terahater or at least i was until i asked myself this question and with many items being actually quickly obvious, be it by lefties, lorb, balloon, booster or boots being seeable very quickly or by knock and trick existing or by just calcing for ebelt/mystic water and similar items, it would make for both the possibility of "weaker" pokemon being usable with tera while the most broken pokemon using tera would become weaker (no item on kingambit makes quite a big difference, same goes for tusk, valiant, garg, ...) and pokemon like volc that were reliant on tera to break through their checks can still do that but at a cost, just like lure sets were used in older gens as well. If you want all your six pokemon to be able to use their tera then it is possible, however you then have to pay the price of not being able to use an item so no tera normal boots dnite, no booster tera dark/ghost val, no lefties tera water/fairy garg

That would make tera an option and keep it in the tier for all the terafans out there while still making tera way more balanced since it cant as easily be used out of nowhere to just setup and win like how dynamax was used in gen 8 before the ban, also it would still keep the "Tera makes the tier more about informationmanagement and more skillfull" argument alive, because the information on the item becomes even more important and with the limited amount of knock off and the "freeness" of being able to click trick, it would make getting the information sometimes quite punishing if you want to mindlessly trick the amoonguss with your gholdengo, just for it to be a terapokemon or with a terapokemon switching in to punish this trick like how it was done in gens 6 and 7


Tl;Dr: Tera is broken because of no opportunity cost and the ability to use an item on your terapokemon, if we make it so you can only use tera on a pokemon with a special (new) item like how zmoves and megas were, it would create the opportunity cost and make information management more important -> the tier more skillfull

(There are already tera shards of types that are important for changing tera types in game so why not insert them into showdown and make them unknockable and the item you need to tera into the certain type (so you need a tera shard water on your garg to tera into water with it) so we dont need the information on which tera type to choose next to the gender and happiness)

There is an opportunity cost, though - not just to the team as a whole, but to the specific mon: they no longer have their former typing. Sometimes that's a good thing (Espathra gains no benefit by remaining a Psychic type), sometimes a negative (Magearna disliked losing its phenomenal typing), and more often a mixed bag (Kingambit benefits from dropping its 4x Fighting weakness, but also loses a lot of resists that let it check threats like Dragapult in the mid-game).

Also, as noted by Nish, that's a full on game mod instead of a tiering action.

I can't think of many restrictions barring Tera Preview or Tera Blast ban that would be worthwhile to consider. The Tera captain idea was pretty good imo, but that got shot down. Another one could be making it so that your Tera types is limited to one of the 4 moveslots in your moveset, but that would still wind up killing Hundreeds of strategies and restrict teambuildimg by removal staple options like Tera Water Garg, in addition to being a complex solution.

Unrelated but I do wonder if Eleki would still be better than in Gen 8 if Tera Blast was banned. A key advantage I noticed when it was legal was that it was extremely good at punishing bad Teras from Lando-T / Great Tusks. It's control over the Tera game due to its speed made it pretty strong.

While not appropriate for an OU tiering action, that'd be pretty interesting as long as Tera Blast qualified.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

middle-ground proposal: we implement tera preview, but we only use the in-game type symbols so no one knows what they mean

 

[SnackWasTaken]

I did the investigation of tera stats a few days before, and saw that Smogon Stats and Pikalytics ones were IDENTICAL, a copypaste into a readable format instead of just raw numbers in txt.

Then there must have also been a problem with jug in the Smogon stats too.

Last Respects on Basculin-H was never tested or voted on in OU.

Doesn’t need to be. It has decent bulk with eviolite, and is several points faster than any other Last Respects User.

 

[awyp]

How have ya'll turned a Tera Discussion thread into a shitpost free for all?

please have some decorum

 

[WildWave]

Time to address the elephant in the room. In regards of Terastallization, there's no secret that I'm Pro-Tera and would like to keep the mechanic unrestricted. I believe the best way to go about a future suspect is either Ban or DNB. Similar to Dynamax (and Gigantamax).

Since it has been brought up on numerous occasions, I want to talk about the restrictions on Terastallization, and why I'm against it. When it came to these restrictions at the time, we were given 4 forms of action:

• Outright Ban
• 1 Tera user per team (first team slot)
• Reveal Tera type at team preview
• Only STAB Tera types allowed

I figured I'll share my thought process on these restrictions since these forms of actions are still floating around to this day as possible solutions to Tera. These two restrictions (1 Tera user per team (first team slot), Only STAB Tera types allowed) I would like to say that I view them on equal footing. Not gonna go too much in depth here, all I'm gonna say is that if your gonna nerf a mechanic to this extent, you might as well ban it as a whole. It's like a last resort, your basically trying to keep something around just for the sake of keeping it around. Even with a small minority that support these actions, I believe it should be kept off the table. Now onto Tera Preview. You wanna talk about far-reaching, well this is it right here. For the people that support this restriction, all they can talk about is being able to pilot through with a gameplan. Sadly, they are missing the bigger picture since this restriction has more of a negative impact than anything else. While there might not be any changes within the mechanic, this form of action doesn't reward the player when it comes to creativity and teambuilding. Most importantly, it takes away the skill aspect of the game. When it comes to competitive Pokémon, we should be encouraging ourselves and others within the community to get better, not the other way around. Since when was it okay to cut corners? By implementing this action (or any actions for that matter), your basically stating that it's okay to lower the skill gap amongst the players. While there's a gentlemen's agreement on the table, I just can't bring myself to support this action. As I stated earlier, the votes should be straight up in Black and White. We're literally 9 months into this generation, 7 months since the last results for Terastallization. I just feel that were at a point that a player should know which direction they would want to go about there vote.

Something that peaked my interest that was brought up in the Policy Review thread was the possibility of banning Tera Blast. While this might be a solid attempt that both sides can agree on to reach a common ground, you gotta ask yourself, how much of a difference does it make? Is this moving the needle drastically or just a little? I think this has a lot to do with Tera Blast pushing , , and to Ubers. Me personally, I think Tera Blast is a neat concept. It adds a unique element to teambuilding and creativity going hand in hand with the mechanic for fun and interesting interactions. And once again I ask you, do you prefer having more Pokémon? Or do you prefer the benefits of Tera Blast? I do believe Tera Blast should have it's own thread for further discussions in the future.

In conclusion, I would like to say that Terastallization is by far the most skilled generation that I have been apart of. And I'm sorry for saying the quiet part out loud, the problem isn't the mechanic, the problem is you (the player). I might not be the best, and I never claimed to be. But if I'm struggling with something that's within my control, then that's just negligence on my part for not doing something about it. Smogon has put forth a wide range of resources to help you as a player. It's up to you to take advantage of it. :)

P.S. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Finchinator]

On the flaws of running a suspect ladder without Tera:

Theory would be adding a suspect ladder without Tera. Reflecting the actual current metagame is in no way theory. The premise of those saying that we are leaning it up to theory without adding a second ladder have it backwards.

The metagame without Tera would be vastly different with many unforeeen differences. There would be potential for many bans or unbans as well as different things being used (across Pokemon themselves, sets on Pokemon, etc.) Using this blindly as an experimental variable in the most important suspect ever would be a historically bad decision.

The point of a suspect test is to determine if something is broken in the metagame or not. The metagame itself should be the sole determinant of this.

If it’s broken, we act from there accordingly. There may be more shifts or bans from there, but there’s ample time to accommodate to that. This goes for suspects of Pokemon and other variables.

The point is not to determine if the metagame is immediately better with or without something as there are so many external factors there and we cannot account for future ramifications the same. For example, if we suspect and ban Kingambit, it’s feasible the day1 metagame may be worse despite a potential ban the community wants as Gholdengo and Dragapult may run rampant. But with adaptation or future suspects, it can ultimately be better in the long haul. Using that day1 metagame solely without that one thing (be it Kingambit or, in this instance, Tera) for anything of shortsighted and a bad tiering practice.

I already discussed this with tiering admin when multiple people publicly brought this up and someone on my council did, and they confirmed a non-Tera ladder is not on the table. I am not even committed to a suspect test at all, but it won’t be marred with a second ladder if it occurs.

 

[Pabloaram]

I am full on the Tera Ban. That thing needed to be nuked from orbit day 1 but people love generational mechanic and defended Tera like Dyna was in the past. Even more i gonna say bc most tera defender were people telling that gen 8 was Unfun bc of no gen mech.
Rn we also get old head saying "back in my days you get no team preview and you needed to adapt". Wake up old men this is gen 9. There is team preview since gen 5 and even the official Pokemon competition VGC make both Tera Reveal with also Moveset ( only hiding EV/IV and natures) so there is a official form of Restriction.
For the look like Tera or get open on team preview with doesn't resolve any Tera problem or end Unrestricted and this gen become a ban fest when there always gonna be the next top Tera Abuser

 

[Froctopus]

this is what passes for decorum on the internet. being surprised by this is like watching a rugby game and being shocked when a fight breaks out

We do a little trolling

However on a more serious note...

Something that peaked my interest that was brought up in the Policy Review thread was the possibility of banning Tera Blast. While this might be a solid attempt that both sides can agree on to reach a common ground, you gotta ask yourself, how much of a difference does it make? Is this moving the needle drastically or just a little? I think this has a lot to do with Tera Blast pushing , , and to Ubers. Me personally, I think Tera Blast is a neat concept. It adds a unique element to teambuilding and creativity going hand in hand with the mechanic for fun and interesting interactions. And once again I ask you, do you prefer having more Pokémon? Or do you prefer the benefits of Tera Blast? I do believe Tera Blast should have it's own thread for further discussions in the future.

I agree with your take that Tera adds more skill to the game, and that should be rewarded. You should always reward the more creative player. My belief is that it is pushed too far because Tera Blast is just too much of a tool to flip a match up on its head. Its one thing to switch your typing to live an attack, giving you satisfaction of making the right play, but its another to then do Fairy attack on something that shouldn't even have access to that type of attack, and making your opponent rage at an 'unpredictable bullshit rng' game. If mons are balanced around their move pools, stats and typing. There shouldn't be a way to manipulate 2 of those attributes to create an absolutely busted abomination.

By changing your type you create a 'feels bad' play for your opponent, but that shouldn't be turned into a 'soul stomping defeat' when you then can hit them back with a super effective tera blast lure play. By reducing the amount of aggravation associated with the mechanic, it may help some people learn to live with the mechanic and learn how to play with and around it better.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

On the flaws of running a suspect ladder without Tera:

Theory would be adding a suspect ladder without Tera. Reflecting the actual current metagame is in no way theory. The premise of those saying that we are leaning it up to theory without adding a second ladder have it backwards.

The metagame without Tera would be vastly different with many unforeeen differences. There would be potential for many bans or unbans as well as different things being used (across Pokemon themselves, sets on Pokemon, etc.) Using this blindly as an experimental variable in the most important suspect ever would be a historically bad decision.

The point of a suspect test is to determine if something is broken in the metagame or not. The metagame itself should be the sole determinant of this.

If it’s broken, we act from there accordingly. There may be more shifts or bans from there, but there’s ample time to accommodate to that. This goes for suspects of Pokemon and other variables.

The point is not to determine if the metagame is immediately better with or without something as there are so many external factors there and we cannot account for future ramifications the same. For example, if we suspect and ban Kingambit, it’s feasible the day1 metagame may be worse despite a potential ban the community wants as Gholdengo and Dragapult may run rampant. But with adaptation or future suspects, it can ultimately be better in the long haul. Using that day1 metagame solely without that one thing (be it Kingambit or, in this instance, Tera) for anything of shortsighted and a bad tiering practice.

I already discussed this with tiering admin when multiple people publicly brought this up and someone on my council did, and they confirmed a non-Tera ladder is not on the table. I am not even committed to a suspect test at all, but it won’t be marred with a second ladder if it occurs.

this makes a lot of sense. As much as I'd like to try a Teraless meta before voting on one it's just too many variables to try and isolate. What if we bring back a Pokémon that's "not broken without Tera" on this suspect ladder, and it turns out to be in fact still overbearing? How do we factor this into the vote? Are we really "getting an idea of what it would be like"? This especially helps with the fact that we have a couple pretty legitimate restrictions on the table outside of full ban that trying to run a second suspect ladder simply wouldn't represent all of our options properly. With full ban being a pretty unlikely outcome I think testing on the current ladder will work great.

 

[RoiDadadou]

I am full on the Tera Ban. That thing needed to be nuked from orbit day 1 but people love generational mechanic and defended Tera like Dyna was in the past. Even more i gonna say bc most tera defender were people telling that gen 8 was Unfun bc of no gen mech.
Rn we also get old head saying "back in my days you get no team preview and you needed to adapt". Wake up old men this is gen 9. There is team preview since gen 5 and even the official Pokemon competition VGC make both Tera Reveal with also Moveset ( only hiding EV/IV and natures) so there is a official form of Restriction.
For the look like Tera or get open on team preview with doesn't resolve any Tera problem or end Unrestricted and this gen become a ban fest when there always gonna be the next top Tera Abuser

Total number of people who defended Dynamax:




















ㅤ

 

[KamenOH]

Total number of people who defended Dynamax:




















ㅤ

You forgot someone, though I don't blame you.

 

[Eelstartega]

To determine how to proceed on Terastallization in the metagame given the parameters outlined in the OP

I though it was for you and your crew to be the fun Police once again and ruin OU...

Bad jokes aside, Now I want to dive into a third element of the discussion: THE EXTREMES. Those who want to do nothing and want to remove the mechanic. I'll try my best to take your points seriously... at least to one of you.

First, the "don't touch tera" crew. I'm going to be honest, you no longer have a point. Back in early 2023 you actually had a point of we not knowing what was wrong with it, BUT now with over 7 months of tiering it's kinda evident Tera is not that well balanced. The "It's fun" is not an argument, you should be asking "Does this as it stands create a positive experience for most part?" Which is an actual argument, tho what I'll respond that honestly in its current state I doubt it creates a good experience overall, or at least the current negatives outweight the positives.
While rare in individual usage, Tera Blast is cheesing through a lot of matches, and while 2% per pokémon might seem irrelevant, those add over time, making it so that Tera Blast becomes a factor for in one of each 5 battles while watching a random match, half of them coming from uncommon users to lure counters. While I and most people are fine with Lure sets, atm they are more prevalent than they should, making the matchups incredibly volatile even for how offensive gen 9 OU is, and something should be done about if possible, wether is tera blast ban, team preview, both or a straight-up ban. As a reminder, the people who wanted a tera change was a supermayority at all elos.

Now, the second group, the "Remove tera crew", aka the most radical group who actually has a point. Indeed tera is right now a polarizing mechanic who has ended in a lot of bans. But now I add the question... How many bans that are still active?

: This thing is just busted, we all know that. There's a reason it's so popular in VGC, Monotype, BSS and Ubers as well.

: Freeze-dry + Hydro Pump + faster than Tapu Koko + good special attack + oddly respectable physical bulk would have been a disaster with or without Tera.

: What if Slaking did not have an hability? It would be a ridiculous wallbreaker with good bulk and speed, just like Palafin. It also has jet punch so it can invest in even more bulk.

: The pokémon with the single highest special attack in pokémon's history, and also has respectable speed. What could go wrong?

: Is a Weavile on megastone steroids. Now has sucker punch, is even faster, has reliable fighting coverage and has a passive Life orb who doesn't reduce health, all at the cost of knock off. This is a MAYBE it became overwhelming due to Tera, or maybe tera just accelerated the process. Can't believe it was reallowed when home came out considering it did not bringed up counterplay like Tapu Fini or Clefable.

: This evil bird is the biggest exponent of Tera breaking a pokémon. On the surface it looks a normal sweeper using stored power and speed boost to clean weakened teams. The problem is that Tera gives this pokémon way too much flexibility and alongside the fact it becomes a time bomb due to speed boost, is seemed as unhealthy due to their checks being only determined before the battle and unpredictable, all because of Terastalization and Espathra's gimmicks.

: This is the product of 3 elements. 1°: Rage Fist being a stupid move. 2°: Annihilape being bulky and threatening even without said move. 3°: Tera making it difficult to revenge kill. For stall teams this would have been a nightmare regardless, but tera pushed it over the edge. May have been banworthy without Tera, but I suspect a ban to revival blessing would have been more likely.

: Why was this allowed to begin with? We knew that Natdex had to ban this thing in a few days due to tera Ice, so why did the council though it was a good idea? Still, yes, it was banned DUE to tera, but let's be real, Regieleki's design is incredibly flawed of being useless or opressive.

: Similar as with regieleki except it's not tera-reliant to work. Also no idea why it was allowed.

: This is probably a big reason why so many people want action against Tera, and I completely get it, this is a gorgeus creature with Jesus-like lore behind, praised by ancient cultures and by lots of players due to its unique talents, it being THE bug type who is great in the highest tier even with powercreep. It sadly was known as the MU Moth for a reason, and once it got tools to reliably get around its matchups and the terrible bug typing, the inevitable happened and we lost the majestic sun moth. This lost is entirely due to tera.

: Another case where obviously Tera broke it... except that would be an overlook. While Tera was a big contributing factor, this Po cosplayer also gained access to Punching gloves, Trailblaze, and most importantly, SWORDS DANCE. After all, Urshifu could still be walled and chipped by Amoonguss, Slowbro and Toxapex with rocky helmet, as well as outspeed by half of the tier, but now it has a speed boosting move, a power boosting one and a way of bypassing rocky helmet, making it having no weaknesses. THAT BEING SAID, even if he did not receive any buff, Urshifu would still have been problematic because of tera doing the same as Palafin of using checks as setup fodder, so Tera was partially responsible here.

: His ban has almost nothing to do with Tera and it was all about how impossible it is to stop its body press sweeps due to the base steel type it has. That's also why the Hero form is just great instead of busted.

I'm counting here 3 pokémon who got banned due to Tera (Espathra, Regieleki, Volcarona), 2 who got banned partially due to tera (Annihilape and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike) and 1 who arguably got banned due to tera (Chien-Pao). So we can certainly say that the mechanic is partially responsible for the chaos in OU, but not totally. if you ask me is 40% terastalization, 20% poor decisions and 40% straight up broken mons.

Now, I have to ask you this. Why would you want a Tera ban? I'll tell you something before answering though, and is that power isn't really a reason to ban. As I've said before, Landorus Incarnate isn't necessarily stronger than Therian; roughly at the same level in Monotype, T for flying and I for Ground, while Therian is better in Ubers and VGC. You could even say Terian is overall stronger, but is just that Incarnate being a fast Mixed ground type wallbreaker caused a lot of polarizing matchups, while Therian being a physical ground type Tank was more of a tier stabilizer.
Meanwhile objectively bad moves like double team are banned. Why? Simple, because they create unhealthy game patterns, like double team or king's rock. That's the main criteria Smogon and many game developers take, and makes sense, bad game patterns tend to just be deleted and taken as lesson of what you should not do, although busted stuff is also prone to those patterns. That's also the main reason Dynamax got banned, it created tons of HO cheese where you needed to have a Ditto and EVERYTHING revolved around dynamax, even in Ubers. Same for gen 5 sleep, OHKO moves, "fun"bro and similar stall tactics, assist and swagger.

Now, a second question alongside the original. Do you think terastalization is UNHEALTHY OVERALL for the meta, without a non-convoluted of fixing it? Because if you do, then yeah, Tera is just the a massive offender of the game. If you don't then that might explain why you might see the detractors as crybabies. The issue is that in this specific case and why Terastalization is the single most controversial mechanic ever made, is that Tera is overall kinda neutral in an agressive way, with both bad AND good elements in roughly the same proportions that are quite notable.
Depending of what you prefer in pokémon battling you might love or despise it; if you love conditioning and having control you likely hate it, while if you like creative teambuilding and gotcha moments I guess you love it. There's just no real way to make this MUCH better for the pro-ban, and for the pro-tera there's no way to really convince the other side, because there's no denial terastalization fundamentally changes how we play pokémon, and lots of people really don't like change, specially coming from arguably the most stagnated big franchise; I myself am not a big fan of BotW and TotK precisely due to changing dungeons to be bland, but that doesn't mean the game isn't amazing, is just that I don't like open world games and prefer a well constructed linear or semi-open progression (... I guess you now know what I think about Scarlet/Violet).

Is it good or bad? I am kinda neutral to all of this, but I'll be honest, you need something incredibly damaging to the meta while also unfixable to be banworthy in my book; if dynamax was level 0 by default and lacked those weird immunities to roar, superfang, grass knot fake out, encore or choice locks, it might have been worth keeping, but it was just beyond reasonable fix even for Ubers. Tera in my book is nowhere near a game-breaking mechanic, is just a game-changing one with some reasonable fixes; this is not to say it's good or bad, is just a different game than the one we came for originally, and also a different one if it was not there, although not the same mold as gen 8.

 

[Biannual Run]

Hey so I’ve been following the thread but I’ve been not super active on ladder recently, so I’ve got to ask - what is it about Tera Blast that it is making the rounds as something to ban? I always saw it as a very committal option, as it is often a wasted move if you do not use Tera on that Pokémon. It was a part of the Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki bans, but the first two of those Pokémon had problematic sets that did not even use the move and Regieleki’s design philosophy doesn’t make sense in Gen 9. In other words, I’m wondering if someone could help me out by providing an example or two of the following: 1) a Pokémon that uses Tera Blast commonly, 2) why this Pokémon runs Tera Blast over other coverage moves, and 3) the “problematic” aspects of Tera Blast in that context. That would be super helpful for me to understand the issue.

 

[Eelstartega]

Oh, I forgot something when talking about Tera Preview:

While they're not OU pokémon nor good in OU, they are playable in OU. As you all know, Zoroark's hability and appeal is pretending to be other pokémon, which means that whatever method of Tera preview you're using it should not reveal illusion. It should be more attached to the pokémon, although I would imagine making it a HUB text alongside a pokémon's typing just like the one you have for yours would be enough. I just say this because my original method forgot their existance.

 

[veti]

1) a Pokémon that uses Tera Blast commonly

Sandy Shocks, Frosmoth and Galarian Moltres are the only pokemon that usually run tera blast iirc and none of them are even top threats let alone broken

 

[Finchinator]

It was a part of the Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki bans, but the first two of those Pokémon had problematic sets that did not even use the move

I don’t think this is fully true. Gleam Espathra was dying out by the time it got banned and MonoVolc was never the broken piece of it.

Tera Blast causes some interesting interactions, but it is not a huge problem right now. It did lead to the ban of 3 Pokemon though and this alone is reason to discuss it honestly.

 

[Magcargo]

Hey so I’ve been following the thread but I’ve been not super active on ladder recently, so I’ve got to ask - what is it about Tera Blast that it is making the rounds as something to ban? I always saw it as a very committal option, as it is often a wasted move if you do not use Tera on that Pokémon. It was a part of the Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki bans, but the first two of those Pokémon had problematic sets that did not even use the move and Regieleki’s design philosophy doesn’t make sense in Gen 9. In other words, I’m wondering if someone could help me out by providing an example or two of the following: 1) a Pokémon that uses Tera Blast commonly, 2) why this Pokémon runs Tera Blast over other coverage moves, and 3) the “problematic” aspects of Tera Blast in that context. That would be super helpful for me to understand the issue.

It's mostly since Tera Blast gives most Pokemon coverage to bypass Pokemon they couldn't touch otherwise. Random Stored Power users like Polteageist are are good Tera Blast users to get rid of Pokemon they would be hard walled by, making their stored powers more devastating. I think this class of Pokemon is why Tera Blast seems overwhelming.

Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra got banned because of the move, but tbh Volcarona may have been acted on too fast w/ a qb instead of suspect and Regieleki / Espathra are Pokemon that I am very happy aren't in the metagame and don't care about preserving lmao.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

I oppose terastal ban because I hold the philosophy that anything broken by tera should be treated as a broken pokemon. Pro tera-ban people always bring up the same few examples (Volcarona, Regieleki, Kingambit) which to me shows that the Pokemon are the problem, not terastal and the broken Pokemon should be banned instead.

You do realize that Regieleki was banned purely because of terastallization, right...? It didn't do all that much in Gen 8 because it got shut down by any ground type. You say that anything that's broken by tera is just broken period, then you mention Regieleki, which, as was said before, did jackshit to ground types in gen 8.

 

[veti]

You do realize that Regieleki was banned purely because of terastallization, right...? It didn't do all that much in Gen 8 because it got shut down by any ground type. You say that anything that's broken by tera is just broken period, then you mention Regieleki, which, as was said before, did jackshit to ground types in gen 8.

This doesn't go against my viewpoint at all, regieleki is a single pokemon and we have many pokemon, offensive and defensive, not broken by tera.

 

[Eelstartega]

In other words, I’m wondering if someone could help me out by providing an example or two of the following: 1) a Pokémon that uses Tera Blast commonly, 2) why this Pokémon runs Tera Blast over other coverage moves, and 3) the “problematic” aspects of Tera Blast in that context. That would be super helpful for me to understand the issue.

I've talked about this before, but in short

1. Pokémon who use Tera Blast commonly are Iron Moth, Volcanion, Dragapult, Cresselia, Sandy shocks, Moltres-Galar and Lilligant-Hisui. Is also rare but it has been used by Kingambit (People only feel is common because Kingambit is so common), Enamorus, Roaring Moon, Walking wake, Landorus-T, Heatran, Basculegion and Hoopa, mostly in lower ladder.
2. Simple, because they don't have coverage against X with X being almost always a top tier threat, or good STAB in said type. Iron Moth uses it for Heatran, Volcanion for Dragapult and Baxcalibur, Dragapult for STAB and ocassionaly for Kingambit, Cresselia for Kingambit, Sandy shocks for great tusk, Moltres-G for Samurott and Baxcalibur, Landorus-T for flying STAB, Heatran for Great tusk, Basculegion for STAB, Lilligant to deal with Steel types, and IDK what is used in Hoopa although I guess it's Heatran. Not so different from Hidden power in gen 3-5 in a sense.
3. Honestly, is mostly that you don't know the type of said pokémon what's causing those issues, not the move itself. The issue btw is overeffectiveness of lures who are made to bait supposed checks, which is why the tier feels more volatile than usual even 8 months after release.

 

[furyofyuriy]

You do realize that Regieleki was banned purely because of terastallization, right...? It didn't do all that much in Gen 8 because it got shut down by any ground type. You say that anything that's broken by tera is just broken period, then you mention Regieleki, which, as was said before, did jackshit to ground types in gen 8.

Lets be clear on Regielki. It was an OU mon with an Ubers niche despite being shit on by ground types. The mon closest to how eleki operates with a more expansive move pool was Electrode (didn't exist in gen 8) and that mon has been PU for generations. Eleki was balanced by the fact that it had a terrible movepool for anything that wasn't Electric or Normal moves with a godlike ability and stats. If hidden Power existed in gen 8, eleki would have gone right to Ubers imo because it remained in OU despite it's crippling coverage flaws. Tera absolutely broke eleki, but that's because it's the fastest mon to exist, can afford to run a +special attack nature because it's that fast, has priority, and can be run physical or special while also acting as a spinner and pivot. To qoute someone else, Powder Snow would have been a viable move on eleki.

 

[Moyashi]

This doesn't go against my viewpoint at all, regieleki is a single pokemon and we have many pokemon, offensive and defensive, not broken by tera.

Volcarona, Espathra, and many arguable cases like Urshifu Rapid Strike (easily breaking down checks that should check it) and Annihilape (without tera, forcing it out is much easier which helps make counterplay actually counterplay). Not to mention many borderline cases like Kingambit, Bax, Iron Valiant.

Lets be clear on Regielki. It was an OU mon with an Ubers niche despite being shit on by ground types. The mon closest to how eleki operates with a more expansive move pool was Electrode (didn't exist in gen 8) and that mon has been PU for generations. Eleki was balanced by the fact that it had a terrible movepool for anything that wasn't Electric or Normal moves with a godlike ability and stats. If hidden Power existed in gen 8, eleki would have gone right to Ubers imo because it remained in OU despite it's crippling coverage flaws. Tera absolutely broke eleki, but that's because it's the fastest mon to exist, can afford to run a +special attack nature because it's that fast, has priority, and can be run physical or special while also acting as a spinner and pivot. To qoute someone else, Powder Snow would have been a viable move on eleki.

No offense but this feels like mental gymnastics to try and rationalize how regieleki wasn't actually broken by tera. It's not really how it works. in this context we're discussing how eleki was broken by tera. It wasn't broken by any theoretical situation that didn't end up happening.

 

[Biannual Run]

I don’t think this is fully true. Gleam Espathra was dying out by the time it got banned and MonoVolc was never the broken piece of it.

Tera Blast causes some interesting interactions, but it is not a huge problem right now. It did lead to the ban of 3 Pokemon though and this alone is reason to discuss it honestly.

Fair enough, I may have misrepresented that. I think I meant to say that Volcarona and Espathra had unhealthy aspects outside of Tera Blast, but I guess every banned Pokemon is going to have multiple unhealthy aspects so that point is pretty moot.

I've talked about this before, but in short

1. Pokémon who use Tera Blast commonly are Iron Moth, Volcanion, Dragapult, Cresselia, Sandy shocks, Moltres-Galar and Lilligant-Hisui. Is also rare but it has been used by Kingambit (People only feel is common because Kingambit is so common), Enamorus, Roaring Moon, Walking wake, Landorus-T, Heatran, Basculegion and Hoopa, mostly in lower ladder.
2. Simple, because they don't have coverage against X with X being almost always a top tier threat, or good STAB in said type. Iron Moth uses it for Heatran, Volcanion for Dragapult and Baxcalibur, Dragapult for STAB and ocassionaly for Kingambit, Cresselia for Kingambit, Sandy shocks for great tusk, Moltres-G for Samurott and Baxcalibur, Landorus-T for flying STAB, Heatran for Great tusk, Basculegion for STAB, Lilligant to deal with Steel types, and IDK what is used in Hoopa although I guess it's Heatran. Not so different from Hidden power in gen 3-5 in a sense.
3. Honestly, is mostly that you don't know the type of said pokémon what's causing those issues, not the move itself. The issue btw is overeffectiveness of lures who are made to bait supposed checks, which is why the tier feels more volatile than usual even 8 months after release.

It's mostly since Tera Blast gives most Pokemon coverage to bypass Pokemon they couldn't touch otherwise. Random Stored Power users like Polteageist are are good Tera Blast users to get rid of Pokemon they would be hard walled by, making their stored powers more devastating. I think this class of Pokemon is why Tera Blast seems overwhelming.

Regieleki, Volcarona, and Espathra got banned because of the move, but tbh Volcarona may have been acted on too fast w/ a qb instead of suspect and Regieleki / Espathra are Pokemon that I am very happy aren't in the metagame and don't care about preserving lmao.

Sandy Shocks, Frosmoth and Galarian Moltres are the only pokemon that usually run tera blast iirc and none of them are even top threats let alone broken

Thanks for the responses. What I’m gathering is pretty much that Tera Blast gives a coverage move, and what separates Tera Blast from other coverage moves is that you can select it to be the perfect coverage move. While it is a high opportunity cost move - it requires using your Tera on that Pokémon and sinking a move slot - it is also very strong, at 80 BP STAB (in the case of Lando-T, double STAB) with no drawbacks. That means that in the case that you have a Heatran and they have an Iron Moth, if they use their Tera against you and knock you out, they’ve “used their Tera” but that isn’t much compensation for you losing an entire Pokémon that was supposedly going to check that Iron Moth. The fact that you don’t even know what type it is going to be compounds to this effect.

Thanks for taking the time to walk me through that. I’m not sure I’m 100% sold on it being broken, as it feels like it is doing what it is intending to do. In prior generations, Pokemon with strong coverage moves were seen as strong; in this generation, strong coverage moves aren’t as necessary because you can make your own coverage move. That is going to cause some Pokémon to become much better while others become only a little better, but I’m not sure if it’s an inherently bad thing, rather it is just different. Nonetheless, I think I see where the people who want it restricted might be coming from.