Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Yet here we are, in the Terastallizing meta, and everyone not running HO is running Unaware mons because they're concerned about the stat boosts.

Terastal does not give stat boosts that can be ignored by Unaware. That meta swing is because of all the Paradox mons and other potent boosting sweepers.

It's asking for a lot but I am proposing a combination of 3/4 restrictions together.

At that point, you might as well ban the whole mechanic, that's absolutely insane.


A lot of the most off-the-wall restrictions and even the "Tera restricted to the same type" idea simply change the mechanic to the point of it being unrecognizable.

It's one thing to vote for "Tera Type on Team Preview" because it ultimately allows the mechanic to function the same, it just solves a potential issue of Terastal being too unpredictable.

It's another to stack complex bans and remove key characteristics from the mechanic. At that point, you're just asking for a completely different thing. That's not particularly directed to you btw.

 

[Bold School]

I think this is a bad comparison because Ditto mostly sucks after all the broken set up sweepers are banned while Dondozo, Skeledirge and Clodsire will probably still be very viable afterwards

You mean like Clefable?

Terastal does not give stat boosts that can be ignored by Unaware. That meta swing is because of all the Paradox mons and other potent boosting sweepers.

You act like stat boosting sweepers like Volcarona, Kartana, and Garchomp (seriously, pick a dragon) haven't always been a thing. What Tera does that is different is allow a set up sweeper to live a move it otherwise wouldn't have while setting up. I've pointed out numerous times how the turnaround here for Tera is at least as fast as Dynamax was, and it's not all because of power creep.

 

[Lord Xen III]

"Tera restricted to the same type" idea simply change the mechanic to the point of it being unrecognizable.

yeah I'm not a big fan of that one, as is. The mechanic is still recognizable to an extent- keeps half of the new mechanic free additional-1.5 boost on existing stab. Even the typing change is still recognizeable, but the issue is it's only recognizable for dual types. So if this were to be implemented I'd at least suggest that mono-typing pokemon are allowed to change to another typing, but dual types only have the option of shedding one of their typings (Dragonite can become dragon or flying but not both). But even still the bigger issue with this and the other changes is that they seem unlikely to sufficiently nerf Tera, but only time will truly tell.

 

[camboi]

Here's an idea for nerfing Tera I'm throwing out there, I'm not sure if it's been said already since this thread is wayyyy too long to read everything, but here goes:

You can only terastallize if you have the "Tera Orb" equipped as your item. Just that one change could balance it imo. I think this could solve a number of problems and add enough drawbacks to keep Tera in check.

1. Let's be honest, the Paradox mon with their Booster Energy boosts are particularly egregious abusers of Tera. Having an item + Tera is way too strong, allowing threats to snowball too quickly. By requiring these mon to give up their Booster Energy boosts or other useful items, you have to reconsider whether it's worth it to Tera those mon, given that you are giving up both their item and ability slot, as the ability is pretty useless without the item (and as it stands, the options for setting up Sun/Electric terrain are rather limited).
2. Without having to require it, this would essentially mean that you'd have only one Tera mon on your team, as there's a huge opportunity cost if you equip multiple mon with the Tera Orb, since you can only Tera one of them and the others then have a completely useless item. It would be just like Gen7, where you could theoretically have multiple Mega/Z-move users, but you almost never did that bc it wasn't worth losing the item slot.
3. By essentially limiting Tera to one mon per team, your ability to predict which mon is the Tera mon gets a lot clearer. There are definitely certain mon who benefit more from Tera than others, like ones with 4x weaknesses and setup, so you can reasonably deduce who their Tera mon could be from Team Preview. Without a doubt a meta would develop to define the best Tera mon abusers in the tier, like the Megas meta did. Ofc you could go off the beaten path, but then you have the opportunity cost of not using the mon that benefits the most from Tera. With the ability to predict which mon is their Tera mon, you could then narrow down what types they'll probably change into. Obviously there's no certainty to it, but when is there every certainty in Pokemon anyways.
4. I think it would bring Tera close to the predictability of Megas, where at team preview when you see Swampert on a rain team, you're pretty sure that's their Mega, and you plan accordingly. Think of Mega-Zard-X and Y too, that added even more unpredictability, but it was still manageable, and you at least knew their other mon couldn't Mega.
5. By requiring the player to decide in the teambuilder who their Tera mon will be, we're likely to see teams built around supporting that mon, which will give further clues about which mon will Tera and what type they'll Tera into from Team Preview. Not to mention, you now have to play much differently with your Tera mon, as you don't want to accidentally lose it before you get to use it, just like with Megas. Again, that further gives info to your opponent (hmm, they're not switching that mon in to take damage, I wonder why), and it adds helpful drawbacks to Tera. Also you don't need to predict the item on the Tera mon anymore, so that helps make up for some of the added variance Tera brings.
6. Lastly, the Tera Orb shouldn't be able to get knocked off, which means you could figure out which mon has the Tera Orb by using Knock Off and seeing if their item gets removed. Obviously Knock Off is wayyy less present in the metagame, but there are still some good mon who get it, and they might get even more valuable bc of this change, which could be a cool way of adding more viable mons to the metagame. Or you don't even need Knock Off, as Frisk also works.

 

[bogglywoods]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Gen8 Random Battles the most played format? I remember researching this for Showdex to see what formats we should focus on supporting first, and Random Battles had a really high # of monthly battles. If that's true, then the most popular format allowed Dmax and in my humble opinion, I thought it was pretty playable. However, I would say that's probably because people can't build a team that utilize the biggest abusers of dmax like Gyarados, so that's why it wasn't as broken in randoms.

In my experience, most people I know who do random battles are either very casual and don't know enough about team building to do normal ladders, or are people who just don't want to bother with building a team in general, and for that first demographic I doubt Dmax being there matters much to them, and for the second weren't too happy with Dmax being there but thought without team building it was less intrusive overall (also most of them have outright stated that they play randoms so they can blame their losses on luck with teams instead of skill lol).

I know that's all very anecdotal and probably doesn't mean much, I just wanted to give my observations in regards to random battles being the most popular format.

 

[alephgalactus]

Here's an idea for nerfing Tera I'm throwing out there, I'm not sure if it's been said already since this thread is wayyyy too long to read everything, but here goes:

You can only terastallize if you have the "Tera Orb" equipped as your item. Just that one change could balance it imo. I think this could solve a number of problems and add enough drawbacks to keep Tera in check.

The main problem with this is that there is no “Tera Orb” item. We’d have to designate some other item as That Item You Have To Hold. Maybe the Tera Shards? (Can those be held? I don’t even know what can and can’t anymore.)

 

[Clueless Crusader]

Here's an idea for nerfing Tera I'm throwing out there, I'm not sure if it's been said already since this thread is wayyyy too long to read everything, but here goes:

You can only terastallize if you have the "Tera Orb" equipped as your item. Just that one change could balance it imo. I think this could solve a number of problems and add enough drawbacks to keep Tera in check.

1. Let's be honest, the Paradox mon with their Booster Energy boosts are particularly egregious abusers of Tera. Having an item + Tera is way too strong, allowing threats to snowball too quickly. By requiring these mon to give up their Booster Energy boosts or other useful items, you have to reconsider whether it's worth it to Tera those mon, given that you are giving up both their item and ability slot, as the ability is pretty useless without the item (and as it stands, the options for setting up Sun/Electric terrain are rather limited).
2. Without having to require it, this would essentially mean that you'd have only one Tera mon on your team, as there's a huge opportunity cost if you equip multiple mon with the Tera Orb, since you can only Tera one of them and the others then have a completely useless item. It would be just like Gen7, where you could theoretically have multiple Mega/Z-move users, but you almost never did that bc it wasn't worth losing the item slot.
3. By essentially limiting Tera to one mon per team, your ability to predict which mon is the Tera mon gets a lot clearer. There are definitely certain mon who benefit more from Tera than others, like ones with 4x weaknesses and setup, so you can reasonably deduce who their Tera mon could be from Team Preview. Without a doubt a meta would develop to define the best Tera mon abusers in the tier, like the Megas meta did. Ofc you could go off the beaten path, but then you have the opportunity cost of not using the mon that benefits the most from Tera. With the ability to predict which mon is their Tera mon, you could then narrow down what types they'll probably change into. Obviously there's no certainty to it, but when is there every certainty in Pokemon anyways.
4. I think it would bring Tera close to the predictability of Megas, where at team preview when you see Swampert on a rain team, you're pretty sure that's their Mega, and you plan accordingly. Think of Mega-Zard-X and Y too, that added even more unpredictability, but it was still manageable, and you at least knew their other mon couldn't Mega.
5. By requiring the player to decide in the teambuilder who their Tera mon will be, we're likely to see teams built around supporting that mon, which will give further clues about which mon will Tera and what type they'll Tera into from Team Preview. Not to mention, you now have to play much differently with your Tera mon, as you don't want to accidentally lose it before you get to use it, just like with Megas. Again, that further gives info to your opponent (hmm, they're not switching that mon in to take damage, I wonder why), and it adds helpful drawbacks to Tera. Also you don't need to predict the item on the Tera mon anymore, so that helps make up for some of the added variance Tera brings.
6. Lastly, the Tera Orb shouldn't be able to get knocked off, which means you could figure out which mon has the Tera Orb by using Knock Off and seeing if their item gets removed. Obviously Knock Off is wayyy less present in the metagame, but there are still some good mon who get it, and they might get even more valuable bc of this change, which could be a cool way of adding more viable mons to the metagame. Or you don't even need Knock Off, as Frisk also works.

The main problem with this is that there is no “Tera Orb” item. We’d have to designate some other item as That Item You Have To Hold. Maybe the Tera Shards? (Can those be held? I don’t even know what can and can’t anymore.)

If the Tera Orb can't be knocked off, you could just run no item. Only real difference is with Acrobatics, and from what I've seen Roaring Moon is the only mon that's really relevant for.

Basically no Teraing if you have an item. Idk how that interacts with Trick/Switcheroo though.

 

[Nish the Great]

"If you want to play with Terastal, just go to Natdex"


Natdex is its own metagame that will almost certainly suspect terastal. It shouldn't be used as a place for anti-ban people to play with whatever broken threats OU bans. This same argument was brought up in the Dynamax suspect, and people were very disappointed when Natdex banned an obviously broken mechanic. Please don't make any decisions with the assumption that Natdex will be a Tera metagame.

 

[camboi]

The main problem with this is that there is no “Tera Orb” item. We’d have to designate some other item as That Item You Have To Hold. Maybe the Tera Shards? (Can those be held? I don’t even know what can and can’t anymore.)

There is a Tera Orb item in the game, it's what allows you to tera in the first place. Whenever you go to a PokeCenter, they recharge your Tera Orb. But if that's the main problem, that's pretty good since it's an easy one to fix.
EDIT: I just realized, you're right in the sense that you can't equip the Tera Orb in game, I'm pretty sure it's a key item

If the Tera Orb can't be knocked off, you could just run no item. Only real difference is with Acrobatics, and from what I've seen Roaring Moon is the only mon that's really relevant for.

Basically no Teraing if you have an item. Idk how that interacts with Trick/Switcheroo though.

Yeah true, that could work too. It would be the same implementation as Mega Stones and Z Crystals, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

 

[Nish the Great]

Tera orb feels like a really weird way of doing a complex nerf, with the only reasoning I can see being "Its what megas and Z crystals did". This suggestion involves modding an existing item to work differently, which is not remotely a gentleman's agreement or anything of the sort.

 

[Clueless Crusader]

Tera orb feels like a really weird way of doing a complex nerf, with the only reasoning I can see being "Its what megas and Z crystals did". This suggestion involves modding an existing item to work differently, which is not remotely a gentleman's agreement or anything of the sort.

Agreeing only to Tera with Pokemon with no held item is a very feasible gentleman's agreement. Only Teraing while holding Tera Shards or a Heal Ball is also doable, but that makes it vulnerable to Knock IIRC.

"It's what megas and Z crystals did" is also a pretty decent argument! Those were healthy, fun, interesting mechanics that worked well, making Tera more like them and less like Dynamax is probably a good thing!

 

[alephgalactus]

with the only reasoning I can see being "Its what megas and Z crystals did".

To be fair, that’s a darn good reasoning. Requiring you to give up your item slot is the thing that made those mechanics balanced. If you had to hold an item to Dynamax, it likely would’ve been an accepted part of the meta right on through till the end of the generation. I know the Tera Orb proposal won’t be accepted because it’s impossible to properly replicate on cartridge (running “no item” isn’t a fix because that activates Acrobatics and you can still trick an item onto them), but it’s how I would go about things if I didn’t have to play by the rules.

 

[Negative Charge]

If items were introduced today a large chunk of the playerbase would want them banned. How am I to know if my opponent has a type resist berry! How can I know if my faster mon is actually outsped by their choice scarf user! The items are not revealed at team preview?! You can run multiple items on the same team?! multiple of the same item?! 5050s! FIFTY FIFTYS!!!!!!

I read some of these borderline hysterical takes on Terra and I genuinely wonder...

 

[bogglywoods]

If items were introduced today a large chunk of the playerbase would want them banned. How am I to know if my opponent has a type resist berry! How can I know if my faster mon is actually outsped by their choice scarf user! The items are not revealed at team preview?! You can run multiple items on the same team?! multiple of the same item?! 5050s! FIFTY FIFTYS!!!!!!

I read some of these borderline hysterical takes on Terra and I genuinely wonder...

Are whataboutisms really called for? I'm personally pro-ban but anti-ban has enough arguments that they don't need to resort to it at all. It's hardly even the same as items anyway. Items were introduced early enough that the meta had hardly shaped into anything that complex, and items also actually ended up being a mainstay of a mechanic. On the other hand, neither of those things are even remotely true about tera. It's just a silly comparison.

 

[AndViet]

If items were introduced today a large chunk of the playerbase would want them banned. How am I to know if my opponent has a type resist berry! How can I know if my faster mon is actually outsped by their choice scarf user! The items are not revealed at team preview?! You can run multiple items on the same team?! multiple of the same item?! 5050s! FIFTY FIFTYS!!!!!!

I read some of these borderline hysterical takes on Terra and I genuinely wonder...

This ain't it chief, a berry that resists a type (For example Yache Berry, which halves the power of Ice moves through a 1 time use) or even something like a choice band, which forces you to stick to a move but gives you 1.5x on attack. I don't think compares to a mechanic that any Pokémon on the team can use (Changes your type, gives you a stab boost for the type you changed, availability to an 80 BP move, and free adaptability if you want to stick to one of your types). I think it's a reach of a comparison. If Tera was a item and it did all the things I just listed, it would be the greatest item to grace the metagame.

 

[Bold School]

If items were introduced today a large chunk of the playerbase would want them banned. How am I to know if my opponent has a type resist berry! How can I know if my faster mon is actually outsped by their choice scarf user! The items are not revealed at team preview?! You can run multiple items on the same team?! multiple of the same item?! 5050s! FIFTY FIFTYS!!!!!!

I read some of these borderline hysterical takes on Terra and I genuinely wonder...

Would they, though? The most powerful items are generally balanced by draw backs and/or restrictions. Choice Items lock you into a single move, Life Orb has recoil, Assault Vest makes it so you can only have attacking moves, etc. Those type berries you are talking about are a one type use thing. We even have an example of actual OP items with Gems. They were one time use item that was seen as overpowered and so they were banned. The type resist berries, among other items, never had this discussion.

The ironic thing is Z crystals and Megas were balanced in part because they took an item slot, allowing them to sort of fit into that mechanic. It worked well enough from a balance stand point that Smogon was able to run competitive tiers with both at once. Dynamax and Tera are different, though, in part because they fall entirely outside the item framework and just wind up being piled on with everything else.

Dynamax was all positives with essentially no negatives to balance it out. You could then combine the bonuses from Dynamax with strong items like Life Orb, Assault Vest, and Weakness Policy. At least Dynamax didn't work with Choice items. Tera doesn't even have that restriction. The game has been balanced around items since gen 2 and abilities since gen 3. The core mechanics of pokemon clearly were never intended to accommodate the addition of another large bonus multiplier and GF did a poor job at adapting them or their new mechanics for this change.

 

[AtheistGod]

I appreciate your honesty, but I really don't agree with anyone who thinks Tera is better than Dynamax as far as being overpowered. I think it got banned that early more because people didn't like it and there wasn't as much of a call to make it work. Basically, it's about what's popular instead of what's overpowered.

If you actually look at it, Dynamax actually had a lot more restrictions than Tera while Tera can do similar things in different ways. Tera gets survivability via changing typing versus the Meat Shield HP thing of Dynamax. It gets offensive boosts with double STAB without a choice item cancellation. You can talk about the quick turn around of Dynamax or the stat boosts that Dynamax gets, but Tera actually more or less accomplishes the same thing and maybe does it better. Games turn very fast with Tera because most of the set up pokemon only need a turn to set up and get that turn through the type change.

You can argue that Tera is more nuanced and intellectual or that Dynamax is more mindless brute force. But double STAB is undeniably very brute force. And if it weren't for every team needing to run Unaware mons, which is something that I don't remember even being considered to address the Dynamax stat boosts, the set up sweepers off the Tera type change would be at least as problematic because it happens so fast with Tera in this meta.

I can't imagine how one would have been laughed off the forum if they tried to say you can solve Dynamax stat boosts by just running Unaware mons on every team. Yet here we are, in the Terastallizing meta, and everyone not running HO is running Unaware mons because they're concerned about the stat boosts. The narrative is just so incredibly biased against Dynamax and for Tera that it seems like almost no one is pointing these things out.

Tera may be stronger overall than dynamax but it’s more competitive. Dynamax was horribly skewed in favor of complete sweeps. Just giving double HP, roughly double damage attacks and boosts resulted in sweepers being able to just overpower everything. Tera is a much more versatile mechanic that does a lot more things but that is also what makes it more competitive. It enables more things, requires more creativity, and is more about answering specific checks rather than just completely overpowering everything with big numbers. The overall power of that flexibility can be higher than dynamaxing but it is still a more competitive mechanic that doesn’t centralize the format around sweeps.

 

[Drifting]

Just gonna drop my $0.02 in here as I've only really been manifesting my thoughts in various Smogon Discord servers:

(Keep in mind I'm playing mostly LC and Ubers rn, so my perception is less specific to OU. With that being said, I believe that every official tier will probably fall in line with OU to maintain uniformity during tournaments like SCL, so I believe it's important for other communities to actively participate in this discussion).

***

I’m personally of the opinion that tera doesn’t inherently compromise competitiveness, but the lack of information and surprise factor makes games feel degenerate/less intelligent. Furthermore, I think any compromise where the gameplay function of the mechanic is changed (STAB Tera only, only one mon can tera, etc), are flawed and risk compromising the identity of the mechanic/gen altogether. For these reasons, I support showing Tera types on preview, which maintains the identity of the mechanic while preventing the actual balance issues it causes, which is a lack of transparency and overwhelmingly incentivising matchup-fishy, sneak-attack games of "guess what type I am".

This is no Dynamax. Based off my fairly extensive experiences with Tera in tournament and on ladder. Calling the mechanic "overpowered" is a massive stretch. Many games I have played and seen, including tournament ones against known players have involved the winner not even using Tera, or using it in a completely inconsequential way, here's a replay of me getting thoroughly tossed by well-known player CMDoge where Tera does not matter at all. You would never be able to see something like this with an actually overcentralising mechanic (i.e. Dynamax).

Using Tera has inherent costs. You of course only get to use it once and have to evaluate based off matchup and game situation which of your options is best, and by changing your type you are often opening yourself up to a whole new suite of weaknesses, which can be quite easily exploited with revenge-killing since Tera doesn't affect your Pokemon's stats/survivability in anyway. For example of how this risk management manifests, if I'm using a team with Gholdengo and Glimmora, and I Tera-Fighting my Gholdengo to beat Kingambit, my Glimmora's hazard-stack will suddenly become vulnerable to Rapid Spin, thanks to my Ghost-type being replaced. There are many more examples like this and that's just one I can think of on the spot. There's also counterplay options such as using Protect to ease Tera scouting that I'm not really seeing many people use at all.

Another thing I have to mention is that a lot of players are making conclusions way too early. Obviously I don't blame them for this, and the OU council absolutely had to do something with how large outcry is, and with SPL coming up soon. However, judging this mechanic when you have shit like Annihilape running around who (Spoiler Alert!) won't be sticking around even if he can't be a Water-type anymore. I mean, we haven't even seen a Gen 9 tournament yet unless you want to count Kickoff, which is mostly populated by very new and casual players not that that's a bad thing of course. Obviously it's ideal not to use SPL as testing grounds (even inf SPL SV OU will be dogshit regardless because of how unexplored and unrefined the meta is but that's another issue altogether), but I think it would be the perfect way to trial Tera being revealed on preview.

I think the Gen 8 ban on Dynamax has made people far too comfortable with the idea of banning a mechanic that defines a generation. Dynamax was obviously broken and overcentralising beyond comprehension, but this is, as I said before, a far-cry from that. I see a lot of people calling this mechanic "uncompetitive" but I couldn't disagree more. I've noticed a general trend where older players in the community like myself support Tera being retained (albeit with restrictions usually), whereas those who came up more during SWSH want it straight-up banned. When we were playing SM OU, and our Z-Dig Greninja burst through it's "counter" AV Magearna (which is similar to Tera usage and in some ways more extreme), was that "uncompetitive and ban-worthy"? We as a community decided "no", and we adapted and grew. I think some players would be very comfortable if Pokemon was a monolith that followed the same gameplay rules and beats with each iteration, and where every new gen was just a DLC of 100 new mons and slight balance tweaks to some abilities. Meanwhile I view each new gen as a new-game with it's own competitive paradigms, fundamentals and appeal. That's just my opinion though, and I don't want to start a whole rant on the subject.

Overall, what I really like about this mechanic is just how fun and deep it is. I have to use LC examples as that is what I know best so I apologise, but previously unviable pokemon like Azurill can now be fully realised with Huge Power Tera-Water Aqua Jet, and stylish plays like Tera-Flying my Pawniard on the same turn the enemy Gastly Tera-Fighting's and killing it is extremely satisfying and rewarding. In comparison, Dynamax was just boring and frustrating. The argument of how this ban would affect Smogon's perception shouldn't be relevant of course, but pragmatically I also think we have to keep it in mind, at least a little bit. This post by Lily on the subject is absolutely the best I've read in this whole Tera debate and you should all read it too.

Thanks for reading.

***

Now just addressing some misconceptions I keep seeing:

• Tera revealed on preview is not a "modification", it's an agreement that's a part of the ruleset and very replicable on cartridge by simply telling your opponent what your tera-types are. If this is a "modification", then so is agreeing not to bring Flutter Mane to an OU game on cartridge.
• Pokemon will maybe end up being banned that maybe wouldn't need to without Tera, sure, but this argument can just as easily be inverted so as to say that without Tera, pokemon that would be balanced with it may be too strong without it. I can't think of an OU example right now, but an LC example would be something like Pawniard that is kept in check by the huge amount of viable Tera-Fighting users.

 

[Vastus]

Most points have been made already, but I just want to say I'm glad we're considering taking some time for this. Listening to the blunder vid right now and hearing people shift their opinion over time makes me think that we really need a lot of time to fully figure out the consequences of the mechanic. There's so many layers to this, and sets are still constantly changing, so I'm glad there hasn't been any hasty action.

The separate suspect ladder idea also interests me. It would be interesting to see how metas evolve side-by-side. If not that, I would like to at least see a big tournament played with tera to see if it really affects competitiveness.

 

[ant4456]

It's an opinion piece not a college essay mister.

you and I both know you need those smogon credits to graduate from college

 

[alephgalactus]

It's an opinion piece not a college essay mister.

It’s Smogon University, not Smogon… uh… Something-That-Isn’t-a-University.

 

[slainey]

Terastal does not give stat boosts that can be ignored by Unaware. That meta swing is because of all the Paradox mons and other potent boosting sweepers.


At that point, you might as well ban the whole mechanic, that's absolutely insane.


A lot of the most off-the-wall restrictions and even the "Tera restricted to the same type" idea simply change the mechanic to the point of it being unrecognizable.

It's one thing to vote for "Tera Type on Team Preview" because it ultimately allows the mechanic to function the same, it just solves a potential issue of Terastal being too unpredictable.

It's another to stack complex bans and remove key characteristics from the mechanic. At that point, you're just asking for a completely different thing. That's not particularly directed to you btw.

singular restrictions will never realistically be our best bet in terms of being able to include the benefits of this mechanic while diminishing the downsides of the mechanic people claim. Thinking otherwise is kind of ignoring the many many legitimate post proposing singular restriction ideas which all have never seemed to be publicly accepted any more or less than banning tera or keeping tera. We will never reach a propper consensus unless we do some sort of complex ban about the mechanic. No other option that doesn't have a form of complex bans or complexity in managing the mechanic whether it be 1 restriction, ban tera, or keep tera, will prevent a major divide in the community as a whole. This is why finchinator said "get creative, all options are on the table". Ignoring this sentiment and claiming that more interactive management of the mechanic is not feasible, when this is a severe case of difficulty in tiering where basic options aren't really an option, is contributing to why we struggle to find a consensus or even a middle ground here. This same thinking is going to promote the idea that you need a quick and simple fix to tera when it's simply not the case, and it derails the thread as a whole. The thread is around discussing tiering of the mechanic and saying "its broken so bad" or "its not broken so don't ban" is completely pointless because both of those ways of tiering likely aren't even what more than 30% of the player base wants. At this point, from my POV any recommendation of tiering based off either hard ban hard keep or 1 restriction is just missing the point and is echoing already made sentiments that DONT WORK, if they did for even just 50% of the player base, we wouldn't be having this thread in the first place with 30 pages in a little over a week. It's these mindsets that largely deter any form of progress when it comes to tiering the mechanic itself. A complex ban or complex way of implementing the mechanic is likely the only out we have here as a community if we want even have a small consensus on the matter.

Forming the mechanic in a way that benefits the tiers competitiveness, as well as the playerbases enjoyment of the tier is imperative and so long as these changes are feasible on cartridge it makes no sense to even say its not possible.

 

[Tyrith]

But hindsight is 20/20, the council has improved transparency this time around and opened up more discussion, and I think since Dynamax, people have recognized a need for greater consideration for the generational mechanic in general (not saying this sentiment is right ), and it's been made more clear that people are generally of the opinion that Tera might be salvageable whereas for Dynamax it would have been way harder (if not impossible) arguably. And still important to note that people are still disagreeing with complex solutions for Tera as well, not just here but in the policy review thread as well. So far from consensus on the matter.

An important point is that the fact that Tera exists means that this concept is probably not going away. One generation could be a fluke, but two in a row means that the choices made now need to be done in light that Gen 10 is likely to have another open ended generational mechanic. For better or worse, this is the world we live in now.

 

[Violet Raichu]

At that point, you might as well ban the whole mechanic, that's absolutely insane.


A lot of the most off-the-wall restrictions and even the "Tera restricted to the same type" idea simply change the mechanic to the point of it being unrecognizable.

It's one thing to vote for "Tera Type on Team Preview" because it ultimately allows the mechanic to function the same, it just solves a potential issue of Terastal being too unpredictable.

It's another to stack complex bans and remove key characteristics from the mechanic. At that point, you're just asking for a completely different thing. That's not particularly directed to you btw.

I definitely agree, but not even for the sake of keeping the "spirit" of the original mechanic.

I know the meme is that GameFreak is filled with stupid lazy people who can't make video games, can't make competitive games, hate singles and all that. I know we tell ourselves we're here because we can balance the game where GameFreak can't. Truth is, game design is incredibly difficult. Making a mechanic that's new and fresh, but also somehow just barely works for VGC, singles Battle Stadium, 6v6 unofficial link battles, and in-game play, all while these formats are vastly different to each other took many months of ideation and feature testing.

What some people are essentially proposing, maybe without realizing it, is designing a new central gimmick from scratch just for Smogon and implementing it through a series of complex rules. Designing mechanics for strategy games is not trivial and requires more testing than a suspect test would actually allow. This is someone's full-time career.

If we say, for example, "you can't hold an item and there's only one in the team builder and you can only do same-type tera", maybe it works. Or maybe we make everything worse because we run up against the exact same domino effect of problems that made GameFreak itself decide not to design the mechanic this way in the first place.

One push back against tera on team preview is that it doesn't fix every single perceived problem with the mechanic. But to be honest that's not even the goal imo. We want simple handshake agreements that bring out what I argue are the competitive merits of the overall idea that any Pokemon can change to any time that you have to plan for beforehand

 

[Beige]

.I played a game recently that soured my opinion on tera a bit. My opponent and I were down to our last two pokemon, my Garganacl vs their Kingambit. I run tera fighing on Garganacl for the sole purpose of stopping Kingambit from destroying my whole team late game. My opponent predicted tera fairy instead and used iron head, while i just body pressed for the win. (This is not an assumption, they said this themselves.) What this made me think about is that is the ease of concealing your tera type.

Imagine you're facing off against Tapu Lele and you have idk, choice band Togedemaru. If Lele is scarfed, it can outspeed you and ohko with focus blast, but if it's not, you outspeed and kill with iron head. In isolation, this is a similar guess, but in the context of an entire game it's not terribly hard to figure out what item Lele is using after it takes a turn or two. Meanwhile, I was using my Garganacl the whole game, and my opponent had no way of knowing that it was tera fighting and that they needed it gone to enable their Kingambit to sweep lategame