Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

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solstardragon said:
A quick 2 cents, I like the idea of a Terastal Clause as it reminds me of banning certain megas. I know you spent the rest of your post breaking it down and ultimately feeling like banning the mechanic would be better, but as someone on the boat of 'avoid banning it', this would be a neat middle ground between full banning tera and not banning tera that feels like it makes the most sense. I don't think it'd result in '50% of the metagame not being able to tera'.

Tiering stuff so it's competitive is a huge thing in Smogon and doing this to Terstallization would set the precedent going forward for future generational mechanics that certain Pokemon, for balance, can't use the mechanic for balance reasons.

Either way, tldr banning specific mons from using Tera feels like the most clean non-total ban solution to Terastallization, fits better as a solution to attempt to balance the mechanic (saying they must hold a specific item or no item so they're megas-lite feels silly to me) and also fits organically with what Smogon already does best, tiering stuff for individual metagames.
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I definitely agree with this. I see no difference in principle between "Gengar (Who Can Mega-Evolve) is Ubers and Gengar (Who Can't Mega-Evolve) is OU" and "Annihilape (Who can Terastallize) is Ubers and Annihilape (Who can't Terastallize) is OU". That, functionally, is what a Tera Clause is. It would also allow pokemon in lower tiers to have niches in higher tiers using Tera without compromising their non-Tera place in their current tier. I think most would agree it's cool and nuanced when pokemon have niches in multiple tiers.
 
Zzuxon said:
I definitely agree with this. I see no difference in principle between "Gengar (Who Can Mega-Evolve) is Ubers and Gengar (Who Can't Mega-Evolve) is OU" and "Annihilape (Who can Terastallize) is Ubers and Annihilape (Who can't Terastallize) is OU". That, functionally, is what a Tera Clause is. It would also allow pokemon in lower tiers to have niches in higher tiers using Tera without compromising their non-Tera place in their current tier. I think most would agree it's cool and nuanced when pokemon have niches in multiple tiers.
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yeah, but it's still kind of one leap short. Mega stones were actual items, and only worked on a specific pokemon ( can't use Scizorite on anything except for Scizor), so by default they can only be broken on one mon, so it was easy to give them the Soul Dew treatment. Terastillization isn't an item but an overarching mechanic that any mon can use, and any mon can change into any type.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
"My plan worked, I hate this." :pikuh:

Your opponent just made the wrong read bro, this could've happened in a lot of other ways. It happens.
Especially when you have a lure set with the specific purpose of having this interaction happen. :totodiLUL:
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Fair point, but it’s possible to use what’s meta and still find the meta uncompetitive.

That said, Tera is super manageable. I’m pretty firmly in the no ban crowd by now.
 
Lord Xen III said:
yeah, but it's still kind of one leap short. Mega stones were actual items, and only worked on a specific pokemon ( can't use Scizorite on anything except for Scizor), so by default they can only be broken on one mon, so it was easy to give them the Soul Dew treatment. Terastillization isn't an item but an overarching mechanic that any mon can use, and any mon can change into any type.
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You make reasonable points here. Tera would definitely be harder than Megas in some ways, but I think the effort is worth it for the nuanced and creative expression Tera allows for (I base this sentiment mainly on advaita's excellent post on page 27 of the thread). Further, I really think that there wouldn't be that many pokemon for whom Tera and Non-Tera warrant separate tiering.

With respect to multiple types, I definitely think that tiering individual tera types separately is excessively granular and complex. I'm not advocating that Tera-Water or Tera-Normal Annihilape are Ubers and the rest are fine, it'd be all tera types or none. If it turns out that, like, Tera-Fire annihilape has interesting uses or something and would be fine in OU, it's still banned. An unfortunate sacrifice, but worth it to keep the tiering system relatively elegant.
 
Just pointing out I have yet to see a compelling argument that can refute the fact that Terastalizing is in fact very competitive, skillful, and adds an extra layer of strategy onto the game as presented here. As others have said throughout the thread, this post actually provides key examples from high level games and showcases how the mechanic is a gateway to higher skill ceilings for prediction, teambuilding, and reading the game state. If anyone has a response to this post that can actually prove otherwise then maybe I'll change my mind, but I find it highly unlikely anyone will be able to do so given the sheer volume of examples. Also low key most of the best mons (MOON DRAGON) in the meta right now probably won't stick around for too long due to their sheer absurdity (DUMB GHOST MONKEY) and aren't really great examples for how the mechanic is problematic, rather are examples that this generation introduced a lot of insane power creep.

advaita said:
I'd like to preface this post by saying I don't find Tera as restricting as many people say in this thread. People act like this is the second coming of Dynamax when it's not even close. Dynamax was literally a free Power Construct Zygarde with multiple Contrary Draco Meteors... It was absolutely braindead compared to Terastallization and I'm glad it got banned. Mind games are not uncompetitive. They are perfectly fine within reasonable limit. I see Turn 5 in this game the same way I play around something like Z-Freeze Shock Kyurem-B in SM. I can either a) scout / mid-ground around Tera or b) go for the immediate prediction in this case. The fact he brought Kingambit in so recklessly also screams the potential swap to either Ghost- or Flying-type. Here is another high ladder game that demonstrates how you can scout Tera instead of going for an immediate prediction (Turn 25). Overall, the mechanic does have a bit of guessing involved but it's not anything overly egregious like a lot of the "every turn is a 50/50!!!" arguments in this thread are making it out to be. I will demonstrate more of these scenarios in the replay section, but in short I do not think Terastallization is worth taking tiering action on yet because its applications are mostly balanced offensively and defensively:

:Volcarona::Dragonite::Roaring Moon: Offensive Applications - Adding STAB

Adding STAB is one of the most common ways Terastallization is abused-- Volcarona's Giga Drain, Dragonite's Extreme Speed, Roaring Moon's Acrobatics... and a lot of users of this application tend to be predictable! When someone sends out one of the aforementioned Pokemon, any competent player knows what Tera most of these Pokemon settle with. Roaring Moon is the most versatile of all the Tera users in this category, but I would rather see a Suspect Test for it vs banning Tera in order to limit it. Second of all, not every Pokemon has the versatility of a Roaring Moon. I have experimented with unique sets such as Tera-Psychic Volcarona to get past Unaware Clodsire, but overall the set is an inconsistent matchup fish. While one can argue there are "too many possibilities", the reality of the situation is that most people on the higher end of competitive play are not going to pull up with Tera-Bug X-Scissor Iron Valiant, then proceed to sweep you 6-0.

This is definitely a bit extreme so I'd like to display a more realistic example. Here is my Round 2 tournament replay of the No Johns SV Release Tournament. Turn 17 reveals that my opponent's Volcarona has a tech in Tera Blast-Ice. It is clear that the intention of this set is to snipe Dragonite and defensive Garchomp. However, I did not have either of these Pokemon. Thus, all the set really accomplished was get phazed out then die to Sacred Sword later due to how awful Ice is defensively. If my opponent was the standard Giga Drain or Bug Buzz, my opponent could have preserved his Tera for something else and not be forced to burn it off to chip my Ting-Lu. Matchup fishes have existed for generations at this point, and using unique Tera sets still have an opportunity cost (albeit less compared to Z-Moves due to having no item lock). Overall, I find this aspect of Terastallization to be balanced.

:Skeledirge::Clodsire::Garganacl: Defensive Applications - Switching To Superior Defensive Typings

Another common way Terastallization is abused is by switching to "S-Tier" defensive typings such as Fairy, Water, and Steel. Skeledirge prefers Fairy as it allows it to function as Unaware Clefable did in previous generations, while still abusing what makes the base form great in Torch Song, Slack Off, and Will-O-Wisp. Even on more niche Pokemon, competent players can predict what typings are most likely to come out. Turn 50 of this high ladder match I played today is a great example. I was testing Arcanine and my opponent made a great play of clicking Ice Spinner, which covers both the possibility of me Terastallizing into a Fairy-type and also the potential Ting-Lu sack. There are only so many consistent typings that defensive Pokemon like to use. The final thing I would like to say is that defensive Tera will not cost entire games. For example, even if Clodsire surprises your Espathra by Tera'ing into a Dark-type, the most it will be doing is dropping a Toxic or 40% with Earthquake. I find this application of Terastallization to be balanced. I actually think it's healthy because of the breathing room it can provide teams not only in the builder, but also in practice.

:Chien-Pao::Dragapult::Chi-Yu: Offensive Applications - Compounding STAB

The fact that you can basically give any of your Pokemon an Adaptability boost can feel unfair at times. Chien-Pao goes from a great Pokemon to a Suspect Test worthy candidate by Tera'ing into an existing stab such as Ice or Dark. Chi-Yu is another Pokemon that goes from balanced to unmanageable defensively because Tera'ing into a Dark-type drops your weakness to Stealth Rock and allows you to cleanly 2HKO would be counters such as Clodsire. Dragapult is another offender as Choice Specs Dragapult has historically been held back by its low power, but by compounding your Ghost-type stab, it becomes stupid to deal with considering its 142 base speed tier. The only opportunity cost with the latter is you have to drop your Dragon-type defensively, but the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

While I do find this aspect of Tera to be unbalanced, I don't think it's unmanageable. A lot of Pokemon do lose their ability to consistently counter threats, but this does not effect many checks. Iron Valiant is still revenge killing a Chien-Pao, even if it's a +2 Tera-Dark Adamant Life Orb Sucker Punch. Tera can even be used reactively to deal with these proactive strategies such as Tera'ing Gholdengo into a Fighting-type. More defensive playstyles are effected the worse by this but this isn't anything new. Every generation has playstyles that are more dominant than the others, and despite this, defensive playstyles are still thriving in current SV OU. I have seen many players on the higher end of the ladder using stall, and, as we saw in the SV Release Tournament, balance and BO are very much viable! This is most likely due to us getting 3 new great Unaware users (all of which use Tera amazingly btw); the recent bans of Palafin and Iron Bundle have also allowed for more flexibility in the teambuilder of all archetypes as we can see in z0mog's series.

:Kingambit::Annihilape::Gholdengo: Defensive Applications - The Best Offense Is A Good Defense

I could not find a simpler way to phrase this so I'm going to start off with an example. Kingambit has been using Tera-Flying recently, even though none of its stabs benefit from it. Why? Because it allows you 1v1 Great Tusk. Annihilape is another good example as changing to the Water- or Normal-type limits the amount of the options to revenge kill it, where the Ghost / Fighting typing would otherwise fall short with its common weaknesses to Moonblast and Shadow Ball. Similar to Roaring Moon, I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape instead of axe'ing Tera. Finally, we have the aforementioned Gholdengo turning into a Fighting-type to check Sucker Punch users such as Chien-Pao in a pinch. While this form of Tera is very powerful, it's not outright winning games as we can see in the replays below. In the case of Flying-type Kingambit, Great Tusk can still get meaningful chip with Knock Off, while Ice Spinner is a very viable option on its own. This form of Tera is very balanced because the metagame can adapt to it and I'd actually argue it promotes more creativity in the teambuilder.
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I have only touched the surface of what this mechanic can be used in, and the mechanic is balanced in more ways than it is unbalanced in my opinion. It can be used to spinblock, absorb Toxic Spikes, and many more! I know the council wants to do something about the mechanic before majors but I don't think leaving it untouched is going to make SPL feel any less competitive. Here's why:

Round 2 of No Johns has shown a massive increase in competitive quality. Round 1 was a complete disaster with all the cheese, Palafin, and Iron Bundle, but with these being banned, I believe Tera truly adds something special to this metagame. I'd like to take a small sample size in order to reiterate this and the points I have made above:

Round 2 [Bracket B]
Competitive
Uncompetitive
No Effect

Game 1: No significant uses of Tera
Game 2: Chi-Yu is able to overload Clodsire due to the initial critical hit. I blame this more on hax because if he did not crit, iKiQ would have no reason to Tera. From mushamu's side, Tera-Flying Roaring Moon, a standard set, is accounted for in both iKiQ's teambuilding and plays here. The second critical hit was annoying, but most likely would not have mattered with Helmet Garchomp in the back. Even with Tera, I don't think there were any overly unbalanced sequence of plays in this game.


Game 1: Iron Valiant's Tera here allows Lusa to avoid a potential speed tie kill from velvet's Iron Valiant. While this can be viewed as uncompetitive, the counter play still would have existed via Extreme Speed had velvet won the tie. I didn't find Tera's inclusion here to make this game any less competitive than it could have been without the mechanic.
Game 2: Tera-Ghost Ting-Lu is phenomenal teambuilding from velvet's side to force chip damage on Annihilape. I absolutely loved that interaction. Lusa's use of Tera will probably be more controversial, but I stand by this opinion that Shadow Ball was never the play. If Lusa ended up being the Tera-Water or Tera-Fairy set, Shadow Ball would not have killed and you'd still lose another Pokemon in this exchange. Tera-Normal was a very real possibility as well (ends up being the case). My suggestion? Trick could have avoided all of this, allowing you to keep Corviknight late-game for Dragonite. I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape than Tera. The game itself wasn't "uncompetitive" by any means though.


Game 1: Game was done at the point Kingambit swapped to Tera-Flying, but I can see why someone would find that interaction as uncompetitive, despite myself touching on it in the intro and in "Defensive Applications - The Best Offense Is A Good Defense."
Game 2: Fairy Skeledirge is to be expected at this point, and jay was prepared on how to manuever around it.
Game 3: No significant uses of Tera.

Game 1: Sucker Punch would not have killed even without Tera and Tera-Fairy Espathra is to be expected at this point.
Game 2: Pretty lame game tbh, but once again, I'd rather see tiering action on Annihilape instead of banning the mechanic. Annihilape is one of the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now and Tera simply just enhances these already insane capabilities.
Game 3: Amazing interaction here. So Noisy goes for the mono-Dark typing to get the safe Swords Dance on even the potential Tera-Fighting Gholdengo. However, he reveals to be Normal- here in fact. Really cool dynamic and I love the layers it adds here. Even with So Noisy's great play, Tera alone does not win him the game as Z Strats Dragonite is able to clutch up both the game and the series.


Round 2 [Bracket C]
Competitive
Uncompetitive
No Effect
Game 1: No significant uses of Tera.
Game 2: Annihilape proves why it is on the radar with its phenomenal balance breaking. Not even a Tera-Dark Dark Pulse from Chi-Yu can swing the favor into ChrisPBacon's way. Once again, I'd like to see tiering action on Annihilape instead of banning Tera.
Game 3: Steel-Tera is a bit overkill vs Blissey and Tera wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game, but one can argue whether or not the damage boost here is considered balanced, which I talked about in "Offensive Applications - Compounding STAB."

Game 1: Changing to pure Fire-type allows Chi-Yu to avoid the KO from Focus Blast. This was definitely an unexpected turn of events that can be seen as uncompetitive, but TPP was already in an unloseable position at that point. Overall a great game, albeit 1-sided.
Game 2: Great interaction. With Iron Moth using Tera-Fairy to boost Dazzling Gleam, 3d was forced to Tera-Normal as a response. This is an example of using Tera reactively and I found the sequence to be really cool.


Game 1: Mewthree69 uses his Tera-Ground to combat the standard Earthquake set. bilb owo, however, catches Mewthree69 off guard by revealing a non-standard Dragonite set with Tera-Fire Punch. As you can see, this set has its flaws because he did not get the fish he wanted and its lack of Extreme Speed. Tera was not used nor meant to outright win the game. It was just a great interaction and I loved the extra layers it added to this match.
Game 2: Tera-Electric secures the KO on Corviknight, albeit unnecessary. Tera was a non-factor here, and the fact it was used yet didn't affect the game is a testament by itself.
Game 3: Tera-Flying Roaring Moon won the game but bilb owo had counter play to it in Thunder Wave. He just got hax'd. Competent players have shown how well they can prep for the norm in their teambuilding.

Game 1: Great interaction right here. Tera-Normal is the norm when it comes to Dragonite sets and Toustar shows his skill in the teambuilder by tech'ing Tera-Ghost on Chien-Pao. However, MZ scouts for that possibility by sacking Cyclizar, easily the most useless member on the team. Very complex layers added to the game due to Tera and I found this game to be very competitive, and one of the best examples on the list.
Game 2: No significant uses of Tera.
Game 3: Ghost Tera on Chien-Pao allows it to cheese past Corviknight in theory, but it wasn't revealed whether that attacking move was Body Press or Brave Bird. The final interaction can be viewed as uncompetitive though as Gholdengo would have forced a potential 50/50 but because of Iron Valiant's Tera-Steel, Toustar was automatically placed into the checkmate position.
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There is still skill involved in Tera-based SV games.
I actually think there is more skill when it comes to building this generation.
Tera is just as good when used reactively, vs being used proactively.
Tera adds more layers to the game, and not in an extremely unhealthy way Dynamax did.​

Based on this sample size, most of the games are either a) improved or b) not effected by Terastallization's inclusion. The amount of games in the red will decrease as the metagame continues to develop, especially if you ban Pokemon such as Annihilape which is the main culprit of most of the "uncompetitive" games highlighted above. Thus, I support no tiering action. Thank you for reading.
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Lord Xen III said:
Do you have the replay though? It's hard thinking about these things in isolation. Even a Scarf lele when used skillfully can hide its set. You can switch it out of weaviles and Dragapults. You can come in on things it's faster than regardless of specs or scarf (like say Nidoking) and threaten psyshock ohko but click Future Sight instead and then switch out (which isn't boosted by specs so your opponent won't tell the difference). Some of these are risky but there are ways.

You should still have in the back of your mind that if your opponent has not used Tera, then a devasating Tera type could still swing the game.

and there's nothing stopping Kingambit from theorectically using a Tera as well to sway things.
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I don't have the replay, this only really came to me when i thought about it after the fact.

In the cases you mentioned, those are examples of someone conceding a favorable position or making a risky play in order to conceal information for a more crucial moment. In those cases, it's fair to be rewarded for doing so. I didn't really risk anything, i used my Garganacl like normal and won the game off of a "might as well" decision that wasn't part of my core gameplan and wasn't really possible to figure out
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
"My plan worked, I hate this." :pikuh:

Your opponent just made the wrong read bro, this could've happened in a lot of other ways. It happens.
Especially when you have a lure set with the specific purpose of having this interaction happen. :totodiLUL:
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True, I'm actually only asking for a ban because my brain is so big and i need to make it fair for everything else.
 
Beige said:
don't have the replay, this only really came to me when i thought about it after the fact.

In the cases you mentioned, those are examples of someone conceding a favorable position or making a risky play in order to conceal information for a more crucial moment. In those cases, it's fair to be rewarded for doing so. I didn't really risk anything, i used my Garganacl like normal and won the game off of a "might as well" decision that wasn't part of my core gameplan and wasn't really possible to figure out
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well i was just trying to see how we can optimize the example to make it more clear. the King ambit player could have Tera'd Ghost to cover your body press, but didn't, presumably because they burned their Tera earlier in the game or had the incorrect Tera type. but if this was the case, without the replay or other information it's hard to tell if they misplayed somewhere earlier in the game or not.
 
Volt-Ikazuchi said:
"My plan worked, I hate this." :pikuh:

Your opponent just made the wrong read bro, this could've happened in a lot of other ways. It happens.
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glad to see randos in the tera discussion thread know you better than you know yourself. will come here next time i need life advice.

also since no one else wants to step up to the plate and everyone seems to be pushing one post super hard, might as well comment on some weird bits of said post.

”Here is my Round 2 tournament replay of the No Johns SV Release Tournament. Turn 17 reveals that my opponent's Volcarona has a tech in Tera Blast-Ice. It is clear that the intention of this set is to snipe Dragonite and defensive Garchomp. However, I did not have either of these Pokemon. Thus, all the set really accomplished was get phazed out then die to Sacred Sword later due to how awful Ice is defensively.”
- I admittedly haven’t watched the replay, but if they weren’t hitting anything with Tera Ice then why did they Terastallize Volcarona in the first place? That doesn’t sound like an argument against niche Tera types, it just sounds like poor playing. Also, the argument about mons like ESpeed Dragonite and Acrobatics Roaring Moon (both of which were mentioned previously in the post) being 100% balanced is uh, shaky at best without evidence to show for it.

“The final thing I would like to say is that defensive Tera will not cost entire games. For example, even if Clodsire surprises your Espathra by Tera'ing into a Dark-type, the most it will be doing is dropping a Toxic or 40% with Earthquake.”
- Uh, yeah, it could cost games. Take the example mentioned earlier in the thread of a Tera Fighting Garganacl completely snuffing a Kingambit lategame and netting the win because of it. Sure, maybe a turn 1 defensive Tera won’t immediately win against a well-built team, but a Tera saved until later in the game can absolutely turn the tides entirely, which imo is kinda cringe!

“While I do find [the same-type Tera Adaptability boost] to be unbalanced, I don't think it's unmanageable.”
- Flutter Mane was manageable. Iron Bundle was manageable. Being manageable should not be how we measure something’s likelihood of staying legal, though it can certainly contribute. I understand what you’re saying here but imo it’s more of a knock against legal Tera than an argument for it.

”[Defensively Terastallizing an offensive mon] is very balanced because the metagame can adapt to it and I'd actually argue it promotes more creativity in the teambuilder.”
- Using the examples you provided, how is the meta adapting to something like Tera Water Annihilape? Every team now has to run a strong, specially-attacking Grass or Electric? Is that balanced? What if the Annihilape is Tera Normal, or never Teras at all? I think that between all of the offensive mons that can completely flip all of their matchups on a dime, prepping for every single one and all of their common Tera types simply isn’t possible in a 6-mon OU team, unless you run like, 2 blanket special walls and 2 blanket physical walls that cover each other’s weaknesses, which is of course an absurd request, and still doesn’t cover everything (see Taunt Annihilape).

Also, I don’t know this for sure, but considering the massive amount of signups I saw for this tour, I would be shocked if this was every match from round 2 of the tour. And assuming it’s not, how did you pick which games to include? Also, in Game 1 of bdov vs jay, you yourself admit that Kingambit Terastallizing into Flying could be seen as uncompetitive, so why did you not mark it as such?

Overall, this is absolutely a high-effort post, don’t get me wrong on that. I think a lot of the points made are very solid, if opinion-based, and I very much appreciate the large amounts of replays being used to convey the main message. However, it’s still just a solid post. IDK why people are treating it like the Holy Grail. It’s really weird ngl
 
Beaf Cultist said:
Here is my Round 2 tournament replay of the No Johns SV Release Tournament. Turn 17 reveals that my opponent's Volcarona has a tech in Tera Blast-Ice. It is clear that the intention of this set is to snipe Dragonite and defensive Garchomp. However, I did not have either of these Pokemon. Thus, all the set really accomplished was get phazed out then die to Sacred Sword later due to how awful Ice is defensively.”
- I admittedly haven’t watched the replay, but if they weren’t hitting anything with Tera Ice then why did they Terastallize Volcarona in the first place? That doesn’t sound like an argument against niche Tera types, it just sounds like poor playing.
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Turn 16

Iron Valiant, come back!
Go! Ting-Lu!
Pointed stones dug into Ting-Lu!
[Ting-Lu's Vessel of Ruin]
Ting-Lu's Vessel of Ruin weakened the Sp. Atk of all surrounding Pokémon!

The opposing Volcarona used Quiver Dance!
The opposing Volcarona's Sp. Atk rose!
The opposing Volcarona's Sp. Def rose!
The opposing Volcarona's Speed rose!

Ting-Lu restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing team's Reflect wore off!

Turn 17

The opposing Volcarona has Terastallized into the Ice-type!

The opposing Volcarona used Tera Blast!
It's super effective!
(Ting-Lu lost 50% of its health!)

Ting-Lu used Whirlwind!

Iron Valiant was dragged out!
The opposing Iron Valiant was hurt by the spikes!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Iron Valiant!

Ting-Lu restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The opposing team's Light Screen wore off!



hey just didn't have a x4 weak to ice mon, only x2, and even at +1 it only did half.
 
Beige said:
Imagine you're facing off against Tapu Lele and you have idk, choice band Togedemaru. If Lele is scarfed, it can outspeed you and ohko with focus blast, but if it's not, you outspeed and kill with iron head.
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Except Togedemaru runs Sturdy so it wins either way. What is it about Tapu Lele specifically that compels people to use it to illustrate their points with examples that don’t work?
 
Beaf Cultist said:
very fair, though if we had a working damage calc I would still call that poor piloting
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Yeah, generally, they also let the other player take way too much value early on with hazards, and Chien pao was a big threat, and alone KO'd 2 mons by mid game (grimsnarl and chomp), Ting Lu stopped the attempted Volcarona sweep, and now it's an ice type volcarona against Chien pao, which cleans up volcarona and then iron valiant and goldengo are cleaned up by icicle crash and and crunch respectively.
 
I don't think I've gotten enough experience
with tera to have a hard stance, so I want to talk about the predictions and guessing Tera causes for a minute, just to get some ideas out there, not to prove anything.

Imagine you're choice locked into a psychic move, and for example, Roaring moon comes out. You have to switch, but what do you switch into? If it's tera steel, a fairy won't work. If its flying, a fighting type won't either. Maybe it'll tera into ground or dark, or maybe it won't tera at all. As it stands, you can only guess, and guessing wrong could lose you the game with how many turn you waste trying to figure out what actually counters it. The possibility of tera creates not just 50/50s, but 33/66s, 25/75s and worse.

Of couse predictions and luck are a natural part of pokemon and every play has some risk but this is very extreme. Lure sets, z-moves, and choice items can be strong, but those come with sacrifices. Perish song azu might take an unexpected kill, but it won't sweep a team like a banded or belly drum azu can.

Tera at worst tends to be a random free kill, and at best lets set up sweepers turn hard counters into set up fodder with no opportunity cost, and very few tells. This doesn't seem like a mechanic that leads to skillful predictions or extra layers of strategy, it just looks like it causes games to be decided by luck more often.

I think Tera puts an unfair amount of pressure on any form of defensive play. Both revenge killing and switching becomes a gamble, and I don't think this degree of guesswork is healthy for any meta.

I'm not sure if revealing tera types would be enough to balance things, it would still let pokemon blow past mons that would normally wall it. I do think it's worth try though, even if I fully expect this mechanic to be banned.
 
However, I'd say the replay does demonstrate that Terastalizing can't be employed carelessly or without thought or can turn back on you. So not literally braindead. Volcarona setup and burned its Tera only to be phased for 50% chip on Ting lu, while opening the door for Chien Pao sweep inadvertedly, and their team in general was weak to Chien Pao so they needed to preserve their Tera more carefully as well.

It does also illustrate that some abusers themselves can still be checked at least.



So Tera requires some skill to be used.

But it's a one replay sample size.
 
Zzuxon said:
I definitely agree with this. I see no difference in principle between "Gengar (Who Can Mega-Evolve) is Ubers and Gengar (Who Can't Mega-Evolve) is OU" and "Annihilape (Who can Terastallize) is Ubers and Annihilape (Who can't Terastallize) is OU". That, functionally, is what a Tera Clause is. It would also allow pokemon in lower tiers to have niches in higher tiers using Tera without compromising their non-Tera place in their current tier. I think most would agree it's cool and nuanced when pokemon have niches in multiple tiers.
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The difference is that there are only 48 distinct Megas, whereas every offensive Pokemon has a Tera and "non-Tera" form, which produces a much greater burden on the tiering system. Furthermore, Mega forms can be treated simply as distinct Pokemon but Terastallized Pokemon cannot*. This is because any competent teambuilder will only bring one Pokemon capable of Mega Evolving to a battle, but even teams with a broken Terastallizer will often choose to use it on a different Pokemon.

I don't think this option should be allowed, it just makes suspect tests much more difficult to conduct, since people will want to "bargain" by "nerfing" a broken Pokemon instead of fully banning it. If Terastallization is to be considered a part of the metagame, the correct way to handle a Pokemon that is broken because of Tera is to ban that Pokemon from the tier. That's how it was done with Z-Moves**, and that's how it should be done now.

Regardless, I don't see how this works as a "compromise" between the anti-ban and pro-ban sides. The pro-ban side argues that it's a systemic problem and not just a handful of broken abusers, so the difference of "Tera banning" a Pokemon makes no difference. The anti-ban side sees Terastallizing as a healthy part of the game, so there's no reason to treat it this way instead of just banning the broken abusers.

*Barring the "dedicated Terastallizer" suggestion being implemented, which I think is a bad idea.
**Yes, I know what happened with Mewnium and Kommonium. I'm not sure I agree with that decision, but there is still a different between banning a Pokemon-specific Z-Move and banning a non-specific Z-Moves on a particular Pokemon.
 
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A_Wild_Noob_Appeared! said:
I don't think this option should be allowed, it just makes suspect tests much more difficult to conduct, since people will want to "bargain" by "nerfing" a broken Pokemon instead of fully banning it. If Terastallization is to be considered a part of the metagame, the correct way to handle a Pokemon that is broken because of Tera is to ban that Pokemon from the tier. That's how it was done with Z-Moves**, and that's how it should be done now.
Click to expand...
Suspect tests are actually easier when you want to limit something rather than banning a Pokemon/mechanic straight up. Due to the precise nature of it and a significantly reduced chance of unintended consequences, you get a lot less controversy and, honestly, could quickban with very few complaints. (i.e. if Z-Move Landorus-T was considered broken in gen 7 OU, almost everyone would agree with adding Landorus-T to a Z-Moves restriction list to tone it down, but banning Landorus-T or Z-Moves as a whole would just make the metagame worse) This is especially true when it comes to core mechanics.

In game balance in general it's ALWAYS better to nerf with banning only as a last resort, the only reason why Smogon just bans stuff straight up is because of "complexity" but it's good that they're starting to figure out that 90% of these suggestions aren't remotely complicated unless you're less than 7 years old. In this example. just have a "Tera banlist" and add Pokemon accordingly.
 
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bogglywoods said:
Saying "god forbid" is hardly making a big deal compared to you basically giving me the start of a shonen rival monologue about power. I just personally think having fun should always come before winning in any hobby, don't know why that idea seemed bad enough for you to personally reply with what you did lol
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No sneeding in threads or roleplaying about anime, this is about Pokemon and why you are both wrong and dumb about Tera. Get better at communication and no depicting others as overreacting when you can't handle winning a match. Tera type yourself into a person who makes sense
 
So has anyone analyzed the viability of specific Tera types, I am quite interested in what people think of specific Tera types since they don't exactly function like normal types. Let's hope Tera Bug, Ice, or Poison can be useful in some way.
 
Glubbfubb said:
So has anyone analyzed the viability of specific Tera types, I am quite interested in what people think of specific Tera types since they don't exactly function like normal types. Let's hope Tera Bug, Ice, or Poison can be useful in some way.
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I've seen people Tera Scizor into just Bug in order to tank Fighting and Ground moves more easily plus boost U-Turn while most people would expect you to double down on Steel for Bullet Punch. Bug ain't bad for a Mon like Scizor but I'm havin a hard time thinkin of a Mon that would want Bug for themselves that doesn't already have it. Poison is great for having few weaknesses, great resistances, and ofc an immunity to Toxic

QuickBH said:
Suspect tests are actually easier when you want to limit something rather than banning a Pokemon/mechanic straight up. Due to the precise nature of it and a significantly reduced chance of unintended consequences, you get a lot less controversy and, honestly, could quickban with very few complaints. (i.e. if Z-Move Landorus-T was considered broken in gen 7 OU, almost everyone would agree with adding Landorus-T to a Z-Moves restriction list to tone it down, but banning Landorus-T or Z-Moves as a whole would just make the metagame worse) This is especially true when it comes to core mechanics.

In game balance in general it's ALWAYS better to nerf with banning only as a last resort, the only reason why Smogon just bans stuff straight up is because of "complexity" but it's good that they're starting to figure out that 90% of these suggestions aren't remotely complicated unless you're less than 7 years old. In this example. just have a "Tera banlist" and add Pokemon accordingly.
Click to expand...
YES absolutely, anyone who argues against complex bans because "it might be hard for new players" is full of shit. The strawmanning for complex bans is ridiculous and what you said about Lando-T makes perfect sense. People gotta learn to accept that every gen is gonna have a new mechanic to it but they were matrixed so hard by DMax that they'll tilt hard at something much tamer like Tera types
 
GraylyHen94 said:
I've seen people Tera Scizor into just Bug in order to tank Fighting and Ground moves more easily plus boost U-Turn while most people would expect you to double down on Steel for Bullet Punch. Bug ain't bad for a Mon like Scizor but I'm havin a hard time thinkin of a Mon that would want Bug for themselves that doesn't already have it. Poison is great for having few weaknesses, great resistances, and ofc an immunity to Toxic
Click to expand...

Lokix and slither can abuse bug tera, first impression hits like a truck.

Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 390-458 (123 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera Bug 252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera Bug Protosynthesis 252+ Atk Choice Band Slither Wing First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 273-322 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Tera Bug Protosynthesis 252+ Atk Choice Band Slither Wing First Impression vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 321-380 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Tera Bug Protosynthesis 252+ Atk Choice Band Slither Wing First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 305-360 (98 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
 
I believe that if we are to suspect the terastalization. all of these options should be on the list and we use ranked choice voting so that we come to a good middleground for everybody. I know personally I LOVE everything about terastalization and I think that touching it at all should be the last resort for us but I can understand why it should be limited in some form. I would hate to see it get banned because people would rather have that than risk another, more moderate option losing.
 
Echo3697 said:
I don't think I've gotten enough experience
with tera to have a hard stance, so I want to talk about the predictions and guessing Tera causes for a minute, just to get some ideas out there, not to prove anything.

Imagine you're choice locked into a psychic move, and for example, Roaring moon comes out. You have to switch, but what do you switch into? If it's tera steel, a fairy won't work. If its flying, a fighting type won't either. Maybe it'll tera into ground or dark, or maybe it won't tera at all. As it stands, you can only guess, and guessing wrong could lose you the game with how many turn you waste trying to figure out what actually counters it. The possibility of tera creates not just 50/50s, but 33/66s, 25/75s and worse.

Of couse predictions and luck are a natural part of pokemon and every play has some risk but this is very extreme. Lure sets, z-moves, and choice items can be strong, but those come with sacrifices. Perish song azu might take an unexpected kill, but it won't sweep a team like a banded or belly drum azu can.

Tera at worst tends to be a random free kill, and at best lets set up sweepers turn hard counters into set up fodder with no opportunity cost, and very few tells. This doesn't seem like a mechanic that leads to skillful predictions or extra layers of strategy, it just looks like it causes games to be decided by luck more often.

I think Tera puts an unfair amount of pressure on any form of defensive play. Both revenge killing and switching becomes a gamble, and I don't think this degree of guesswork is healthy for any meta.

I'm not sure if revealing tera types would be enough to balance things, it would still let pokemon blow past mons that would normally wall it. I do think it's worth try though, even if I fully expect this mechanic to be banned.
Click to expand...

IMO this is where "current gen should appeal to as many people as possible" vs. "each gen should have its own identity so that at least one will appeal to anyone" comes in. Gen 9 is way more offensive than prior gens, not just from Tera but from the recovery nerf + no Ferro and Lando + hazards being ridiculous + whatever I forgot. If the goal is to hit an ideal state of meta balance that everyone likes this probably means Tera needs to be heavily restricted or banned because Gen 9 becomes too offensive otherwise (relative to what's always been considered the standard ideal state). On the other hand, the ultra-offensive meta with tons of hyper offence and super high-leverage, complex predictions can be pretty cool and fun. In other competitions (e.g. pro sports), unpredictability and high-leverage key moments are often considered positives because they're super exciting. It's not necessarily a bad thing to have a gen defined by big offence, fast games, and high-leverage predicts, and if you want a bulkier meta, you can always play a different gen.
 
Beige said:
.I played a game recently that soured my opinion on tera a bit. My opponent and I were down to our last two pokemon, my Garganacl vs their Kingambit. I run tera fighing on Garganacl for the sole purpose of stopping Kingambit from destroying my whole team late game. My opponent predicted tera fairy instead and used iron head, while i just body pressed for the win. (This is not an assumption, they said this themselves.) What this made me think about is that is the ease of concealing your tera type.

Imagine you're facing off against Tapu Lele and you have idk, choice band Togedemaru. If Lele is scarfed, it can outspeed you and ohko with focus blast, but if it's not, you outspeed and kill with iron head. In isolation, this is a similar guess, but in the context of an entire game it's not terribly hard to figure out what item Lele is using after it takes a turn or two. Meanwhile, I was using my Garganacl the whole game, and my opponent had no way of knowing that it was tera fighting and that they needed it gone to enable their Kingambit to sweep lategame
Click to expand...

So...you won because you built your team well. You recognized a specific threat (Kingambit sweeps late game) that you were vulnerable to, you took steps in the team builder to address this weakness (Tera-Fighting Garganacl), that threat arose, and your counter worked. It's this generation's version of a surprise Hidden Power. It is the platonic ideal of skillful team building.

You won off skill - how is this a bad thing?
 
Beige said:
.I played a game recently that soured my opinion on tera a bit. My opponent and I were down to our last two pokemon, my Garganacl vs their Kingambit. I run tera fighing on Garganacl for the sole purpose of stopping Kingambit from destroying my whole team late game. My opponent predicted tera fairy instead and used iron head, while i just body pressed for the win. (This is not an assumption, they said this themselves.) What this made me think about is that is the ease of concealing your tera type.

Imagine you're facing off against Tapu Lele and you have idk, choice band Togedemaru. If Lele is scarfed, it can outspeed you and ohko with focus blast, but if it's not, you outspeed and kill with iron head. In isolation, this is a similar guess, but in the context of an entire game it's not terribly hard to figure out what item Lele is using after it takes a turn or two. Meanwhile, I was using my Garganacl the whole game, and my opponent had no way of knowing that it was tera fighting and that they needed it gone to enable their Kingambit to sweep lategame
Click to expand...

mfw a check used for a single pokemon beats it :pika:
 
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