The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon

[R_N]

While writing this I also recalled Celever mentioned when that discussion came up that he liked BW2 Cheren the most since as a Normal leader he didn't give an advantage/disadvantage to any of the starters over one another. But alas, he forgot about our lord and savior Pokemon Sun and Moon, so he neglected to mention...

Yeah yeah he's technically not a gym leader and if you wanna be really anal about it you can bring up how Popplio learns Disarming Voice at like Level 8, but it's not that immense of an advantage compared to, say, the easy wins the 1st Rock leaders give to Water and Grass starters at the expense of Fire starters and he's close enough to the level of the average first gym leader + being the first Kahuna. Besides I just personally like Hala more than Cheren and think his team is way more interesting, you don't see Mankey too often that's for sure and his Crabrawler is just a cool main mon.

Well it's not...quite the same but personally I'd put Illima as the first gym leader equivalent.
You're force to do this fight against a type-themed trainer and he has boss boosted EV'd pokemon; That smeargle can rough you up the yungoos is a little extra tough too.
A pretty solid battle all things considered and unlike Cheren they at least made sure to have some nearby counters if you still have trouble. Though, depending on yoru starter, that Smeargle migth still get to rough up the counter. And that's always fun, if unintended!

I don't count the USUM version since the aforementioned cool and unusual Mankey is replaced with yet another Machop because USUM are a crime against humanity that were seemingly dedicated to obliterating nearly every last good thing the original games tried to do.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Well it's not...quite the same but personally I'd put Illima as the first gym leader equivalent.
You're force to do this fight against a type-themed trainer and he has boss boosted EV'd pokemon; That smeargle can rough you up the yungoos is a little extra tough too.
A pretty solid battle all things considered and unlike Cheren they at least made sure to have some nearby counters if you still have trouble. Though, depending on yoru starter, that Smeargle migth still get to rough up the counter. And that's always fun, if unintended!

Y'know with Ilima and Hala + Totem Raticate/Gumshoos considered, that means that none of the major bosses on Melemele give an edge to any particular starter! That's a really cool touch, intentional or not. And I'd rather kill a thousand children before I let this dead horse stop getting beaten!

 

[R_N]

You know what here's a battle I think is way cooler in USUM than SM
Olivia

SM Roster is Nosepass, Boldore, Lycanroc.
USUM Roster is Anorith, Lileep, Lycanroc (They also all have +1 level but eh).

I love when fossils get on teams and they're such a good match with rock leaders. So from a flavor perspective it's a lot more interesting to go up against, but it also gives some nice type variety to her squad. Nosepass did have the "gotcha" of Sturdy + Thunder Wave/Spark, but Anorith & Lileep make it so you have to use types other than grass (both neutralize that weakness) and water (Lileep) to deal with Olivia and they have more interesting statlines and moves to deal with it. Anorith gets bug bit that will be way stronger than Nosepass' rock slide for grass types, Lileep has Giga Drain to keep it healthy while doing a servicable check against water types. They also have Metal Claw & Brine which is interesting favor to deal with, though you probably wont see them used as much. And Lileep has the classic dice roll that is Ancient Power

And as a fun aspect, they replace the Relicanth (who to be fair is also cool and probably more of a nuisance than Armaldo but not every team change can be a winner) & Carbink in her E4 fight, while Boldore gets to hop on as a Gigalith over Golem-A; brings sandstream and evertyhing. She didn't leave her old gym leader team behind (Probopass remains unchanged).

 

[Yung Dramps]

You know what here's a battle I think is way cooler in USUM than SM
Olivia

SM Roster is Nosepass, Boldore, Lycanroc.
USUM Roster is Anorith, Lileep, Lycanroc (They also all have +1 level but eh).

I love when fossils get on teams and they're such a good match with rock leaders. So from a flavor perspective it's a lot more interesting to go up against, but it also gives some nice type variety to her squad. Nosepass did have the "gotcha" of Sturdy + Thunder Wave/Spark, but Anorith & Lileep make it so you have to use types other than grass (both neutralize that weakness) and water (Lileep) to deal with Olivia and they have more interesting statlines and moves to deal with it. Anorith gets bug bit that will be way stronger than Nosepass' rock slide for grass types, Lileep has Giga Drain to keep it healthy while doing a servicable check against water types. They also have Metal Claw & Brine which is interesting favor to deal with, though you probably wont see them used as much. And Lileep has the classic dice roll that is Ancient Power

And as a fun aspect, they replace the Relicanth (who to be fair is also cool and probably more of a nuisance than Armaldo but not every team change can be a winner) & Carbink in her E4 fight, while Boldore gets to hop on as a Gigalith over Golem-A; brings sandstream and evertyhing. She didn't leave her old gym leader team behind (Probopass remains unchanged).

Yip yop! Kahuna Olivia (E4 match is more or less a sidegrade, if anything I slightly prefer OG version because of Alolem) is one of literally 3 major fights even I can admit was actually pretty significantly improved in USUM, I even mentioned it in my infamous essay on the subject in Unpopular Opinions. For those who didn't catch it or don't remember the other two were:

-Gladion #1 at Route 5: He has a Zorua added to his team bumping up his Pokemon count to 3. More importantly though his party is arranged so said Zorua disguises itself as his Zubat, making the most out of Illusion by baiting unfamiliar players into using Psychic moves or not trying Bug moves!

-Guzma #2 at Shady House: He also gets his team re-arranged to have 3 including the surprisingly fearsome Masquerain as well as a Pinsir.

Stuff like this is pretty neat and shows the devs clearly had some cool ideas going into the Ultra titles. Now if only they had a bit of restraint and knew when their meddling was unwanted...

 

[Bull Of Heaven]

For what it’s worth, USUM Hala’s Revenge spam is kind of a threat.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Here's yet another extension of our various diatribes on XY's crappy bosses and potential fixes for them: MandjTV just made a video about them and fixes he'd make!

Figured this'd be interesting and relevant, especially seeing as how he shares some of our frustrations (eg lack of usage for Mega Evolution)

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Here's yet another extension of our various diatribes on XY's crappy bosses and potential fixes for them: MandjTV just made a video about them and fixes he'd make!

Figured this'd be interesting and relevant, especially seeing as how he shares some of our frustrations (eg lack of usage for Mega Evolution)

Btw, since we're discussing XY's bosses, I might as well ask here.

Is the level curve with Exp. Share turned off good? Assuming 5/6 mons trying to battle on par with the bosses? Thinking about making a few adjustments myself, but I haven't finished it and therefore don't know if the level curve holds up and it's just a problem with the movesets.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Btw, since we're discussing XY's bosses, I might as well ask here.

Is the level curve with Exp. Share turned off good? Assuming 5/6 mons trying to battle on par with the bosses? Thinking about making a few adjustments myself, but I haven't finished it and therefore don't know if the level curve holds up and it's just a problem with the movesets.

From what I vaguely remember from my first run through Y, I'm pretty sure the EXP Share-less level curve was a-OK.

 

[R_N]

I really liked the exp share-less curve. It really kicks into gear around Clemont. I did turn it on for the swamp route since I felt I was a little too behind, but after that it was juuust right for me

 

[King Feraligatr]

Btw, since we're discussing XY's bosses, I might as well ask here.

Is the level curve with Exp. Share turned off good? Assuming 5/6 mons trying to battle on par with the bosses? Thinking about making a few adjustments myself, but I haven't finished it and therefore don't know if the level curve holds up and it's just a problem with the movesets.

With 5 Pokemon, I was generally able to keep up without the Exp. Share. "Helps" that the bosses's IVs suck compared to other games.

 

[Jerry the great]

With 5 Pokemon, I was generally able to keep up without the Exp. Share. "Helps" that the bosses's IVs suck compared to other games.

Not to mention their poor movepool choices and using Pokemon weak for that time (like mawile in the 6th gym, I'd say in between the area of the second to third gym for example). Trust me, even without the exp share, it's still too easy. At least in USUM, the bosses really give you a reason to use it, because around midgame or so, the bosses will start overleveling you like crazy if you choose not to use it! In XY, all it does is make an already laughably easy game even more easy! But yeah. Point is, XY as a whole is way too freaking easy. I bet the only way I can actually be challenged by it is to do a magikarp solo of it! But even then, it'd still be easier by a longshot to do than in other games!

 

[Count Bleck]

Wow, this is a pretty fun thread! After scouring it a bit though i noticed there was a glaring lack of a certain fight that I wanna talk about.

THE BEST FIGHT

Now talk about the biggest glow up in all of Pokemon! From a sidequest pokemon to one of the biggest threats to the alola region, Ultra Necrozma is a menancing and elegant pokemon boss who only Arceus can truly compare to in the "Oh shit, is this a God im fighting?" Factor. Traveling through ultra space to find him, he is not something you can overcome by mashing the super effective button like other bosses. If you arent careful, he WILL send your entire team packing, an honor very few boss fights can claim. With amazing coverage, an ability that increases super effectove hits, amazing offensive typing and of course all those boosts, it is by far the strongest boss you can fight in a main campaign in any pokemon game to date. All this accompanied by amazing boss music makes it one of, if not the, most memorable legendary battles in the entire series.

....HOWEVER...

THE WORST FIGHT

....what? Why are you looking at me like that? As much as I love the battle itself, i can easily say that this fight is very not great for the same reasons its beloved: the difficulty spike. To put it into perspective, the last boss fight before this was Necozma merged with either solgaleo or lunala at level 50. The game heavily encourages you to head straight to Ultra Necrozma in ultra space, so you charge ahead after it...to run smack dab into a dragon now 10 levels higher, has the highest BST of any pokemon found naturally in that game (excluding megas, event mons, obviously), and at the start of the match, it raises all its stats. There is literally nothing in the game or a prior game that could prepare you for this level of raw power if you are playing blind. Its one of the main reasons its known as a Nuzlocke killer. Even with prior knowledge of its gimmicks, i could only really get past with roto boosts, max pokemon refresh endurances, and a double z move. Had the game at any point suggested you train up before challenging it, or had any fight on that same level, or even dropped it down to level 55, it would have been still challenging but an easier pill to swallow than running up with your lower to mid 50 mons to be a sacrifice to the sun god. And no, the totem fights are not enough preparation. While thry are typically challenging in the beginning, the become steamrollable by the mid to later half of the game, making the battle with Necrozma all the more jarring.

That said, I do wish we had more fights like this one so we can expect bigger grander boss battles, one with challenge and strategy while also being a huge story climax. But as it is, its a beautiful trainwreck, a train that wrecks that wrecks you but your to in awe to avoid it.

 

[SwampySwampert]

Not to mention their poor movepool choices and using Pokemon weak for that time (like mawile in the 6th gym, I'd say in between the area of the second to third gym for example). Trust me, even without the exp share, it's still too easy. At least in USUM, the bosses really give you a reason to use it, because around midgame or so, the bosses will start overleveling you like crazy if you choose not to use it! In XY, all it does is make an already laughably easy game even more easy! But yeah. Point is, XY as a whole is way too freaking easy. I bet the only way I can actually be challenged by it is to do a magikarp solo of it! But even then, it'd still be easier by a longshot to do than in other games!

Can definitely relate to the Alola leveling curve. On my last playthrough of Sun, I turned off the Exp. Share between Mt. Hokulani and the third Guzma battle on Aether (while avoiding most optional trainers) and ended up quite underleveled by the end of it.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

(while avoiding most optional trainers) and ended up quite underleveled by the end of it.

I mean, that kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

 

[Yung Dramps]

Lots of discourse around gym leaders, particularly the first ones... Now let's change it up a bit and talk about the very last gym leaders!

Best: Raihan (SWSH)
Who else could it really be? I don't see any real competitors in this regard, Raihan's the freakin coolest. As the final leg of the gym challenge he tosses players a huge curveball with not just a double battle but also half of his team being non-Dragons meant to synergize with the Sand courtesy of Gigalith. Add in the typical top-tier gym atmosphere of these games and a pretty cool ace in Gigantamax Duraludon and you got one hell of a fight and one of the tougher ones in the game.

As for worst, I was originally gonna pick one but then I realized, much like with 1st gym leaders, there's a lot of bad ones, so Imma go through the worst suspects.

Despite being one of two 5-mon final gyms, the RB and FRLG versions of Giovanni both have some sort of crippling flaw that neuters potential challenge. OGiovanni is stuck with atrocious Gen 1 boss movepools with such wonders as Scratch Nidoqueen and no STAB on Rhyhorn or Rhydon at the final gym. In fact, the only mons of his with STAB are Dugtrio with Dig and the Nidos with P o i s o n S t i n g. As for FRLGiovanni he's a bit more competent with actual moves on his mons for the most part, but for some reason in what I can only assume was some kind of bizarre oversight his signature Rhydon is stuck as a Rhyhorn despite being more than high level enough to evolve. It would take until Let's Go of all things to finally get a Giovanni gym battle with good mons and moves, yeah his first Rhyhorn was removed but who actually ever struggled against that thing anyway?

Dragon Dance. Dragon Tail. Why? They look so cool, have a Haxorus, so why did they choose such a stupid strat and why are they so piss easy either way? Couldn't they have at least given them Zweilous instead of a redundant Fraxure? At least the sequels gave them some justice because otherwise, wew.

Much like Falkner, despite being the last gym leader Wulfric is a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with XY's bosses. Underwhelming Pokemon count? Check. Opportunities to use Mega Evolution that weren't taken? Check. Crappy movesets that dont use the individual Pokemon to their fullest nor form a strategy of some sort? Check.

If I was held at gunpoint and forced to pick the worst of these, I'd probably go with Wulfric because unlike the other two stinkers who had least kinda had the excuse of relatively small Pokemon selection (a bad one especially in BW1's case, but an excuse nonetheless), Wulfric (and by extension the rest of the XY leaders) has the biggest regional dex in the series at his disposal and barely did anything with it.

 

[R_N]

I don't think Wulfric grabbing more Pokemon would really DO anything. Ice types are always working at a deficit, even if he did use I dunno...Weavile or Mamoswine, he's not going to be puting out a better showing.

And honestly I wouldn't call these movesets crappy, per say. The worst thing is the decision to have 2 hail setters but no one using Blizzard.; that's dumb. But that aside:
-Abomasnow has 2 very strong stabs and a priority move (still a stab!)
-Cryogonal is fast so it can actually try to set up Hail (if you've somehow outlasted it) or Confuse Ray to mess with you. Ice Beam is, again, good stab to have. Then there's Flash Cannon which is sadly its own real coverage...that's more a flaw of the Pokemon.
-Avalugg is slow & blulky so it has the move to make it slower & bulkier. Hail exists in this battle to give it passive healing. Gyro Ball takes advantage of it low speed and great attack. Avalanche is likely always going to do 120 BP unless you're intentionally not attacking him for somer eason. And Crunch is just a nice all purpose filler attack.

Like I guess Avalugg could've had Earthquake? But in the long term it's not necessarily better than Crunch and its moveset otherwise takes advantage of its lopsided stats. The other 2 sets are fine, really, other than I guess Abomasnow could've had idk Brick Break? Earthquake? I guess??

The problem is ice types suck & should never be the last (or second to last, as is often the case) challenge. Even if he had 5 pokemon with Weavile & Mamoswine decked to the nines you are going to crush him near instantly because they have a million weaknesses and are often frail. Candice is probably the hardest ice leader purely because hail evasion hax is garbage to deal with.

Put Ice Gyms In Early Game 2020

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

The problem is ice types suck & should never be the last (or second to last, as is often the case) challenge. Even if he had 5 pokemon with Weavile & Mamoswine decked to the nines you are going to crush him near instantly because they have a million weaknesses and are often frail. Candice is probably the hardest ice leader purely because hail evasion hax is garbage to deal with.

Put Ice Gyms In Early Game 2020

This. Same as Grass Gyms tbh. The later they are in the game, the worse. You just start getting way too many options to smash through their horrible defensive types and it just winds up anti-climactic.

Even Candice, who is by far the best of the Ice leaders is frankly a joke. There's just way too many options to just run through her team.

Out of the three leaders Dramps nominated as the worst 8th leader I'd say that RB Giovanni is actually the worst.

Wulfric got actual moves, but no mons.
Giovanni got mons, but no moves.

Here's the thing though, the lack of good moves makes Giovanni even easier than Wulfric because at the time you reach that final, climactic showdown with him, you've already beaten him twice, so you know what to expect.
To make things worse, RB Giovanni can be outright hard-countered by Gengar once Dugtrio is down. Most of his non-OHKO moves are Normal-moves. A Golem can sweep his team outright.

Yellow Giovanni at least gets an actual team, and therefore is a much better opponent, but his RB team is honestly pathetic and can't be taken seriously.

 

[R_N]

I'd say the other thing that makes Giovanni easier (/the worst) is...Surf.
With ice gyms there's at least a possibility you wont have a fire, rock, steel or fighting move. It's not very high, especially as coverage options open up as generations go by. But it's possible! And how good the move you have access to will vary based on Pokemon and the game.

Water you almost certainly need to have on your team. And if you're a water type, you almost certainly get Surf, which is effectively the best water move and everyone can get it because its a HM. Absolute minimum, you need surf to reach Cinnabar!
Giovanni's squad has low special, a water weakness and they're not exactly bursting with HP. It's a total sweep almost every time outside of Yellow where he gets Persian instead of the Rhyhorn.


Having said all this I think....Wallace/Juan are probably the best final leaders. Probably more Juan than Wallace. Now they still have problems, of course. Both of them have Luvdisc for flavor reasons and there's some real dud moves (Crawduant has leer....Seaking has Fury Attack...) but Water as a type only has 2 innate weaknesses that you don't necessarily always have both of, and in gen 3 in particular your options are kind of annoying to use properly, waters are often made reasonably bulky so theyll usually (in my case at least, ymmv) survive some hits, and unlike dragons there's tends to be at on to pick from that can help cover type weaknesses. Both of them have Whiscash which, while x4 weak to grass, counters electric moves, Milotic, Kingdra & Sealeo have ice moves for grass types, & Kingdra's a pain in the ass.

Water should probably be a final leader more often. Marlon's more held back by modern pokemon team limits than anything else but I'd put him as more a risk than Drayden.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Having said all this I think....Wallace/Juan are probably the best final leaders. Probably more Juan than Wallace. Now they still have problems, of course. Both of them have Luvdisc for flavor reasons and there's some real dud moves (Crawduant has leer....Seaking has Fury Attack...) but Water as a type only has 2 innate weaknesses that you don't necessarily always have both of, and in gen 3 in particular your options are kind of annoying to use properly, waters are often made reasonably bulky so theyll usually (in my case at least, ymmv) survive some hits, and unlike dragons there's tends to be at on to pick from that can help cover type weaknesses. Both of them have Whiscash which, while x4 weak to grass, counters electric moves, Milotic, Kingdra & Sealeo have ice moves for grass types, & Kingdra's a pain in the ass.

I almost put Wallace/Juan among the worst mainly because I fixated a bit too much on the Luvdisc but yeah other than that they're definitely quite competent. That said the best version of the fight is probably in ORAS. In that game they made a pretty smart decision by having him give you the HM for Waterfall instead of the subpar Water Pulse, so thanks to that + physical/special split his Whiscash and Seaking in particular are a lot better equipped, and his Milotic has Hydro Pump instead of Water Pulse. Finally all his non-Milotic mons are Level 44 whereas in RS they went as low as 41. Also Juan's Kingdra uses shitstain evasion strats and that automatically bumps him down several points

Water should probably be a final leader more often. Marlon's more held back by modern pokemon team limits than anything else but I'd put him as more a risk than Drayden.

Slight correction: Marlon's held back by BW/XY-era team limits. In more recent titles he'd probably have a solid 4 mons, maybe even EVs who knows. That said he's still a lot better than Drayden sadly

 

[DrPumpkinz]

There's another advantage to putting an Ice gym early in the game.

I'd wager a big reason why Ice gyms (and Ice-type Pokemon in general) are consistently found super late into the game is because they're found in exotic settings. Icy areas usually stand apart from the rest of a region, and for good reason. Their white and pale blue terrain looks radically different from the greens, browns, and dark blues of the rest of the region's forests, caves, and rivers, and their frigid climate and thick layers of snow and ice would realistically make routes treacherous to navigate and towns uncomfortable to be in (for most people anyway; for people like me who can't stand even the temperate summers of ~40°N latitude, they sound like paradise). It makes sense that these hostile and visually distinct areas are placed late in the game.

If a region has an Ice gym early in the game, this means that icy areas are not special in this region. Such a region would be a dramatic visual departure from most of the regions we've seen thus far. Twinkling fields of snow, hushed coniferous forests, and glistening caves of ice that rival the ones from Samuel Taylor Coleridge's famous dream. It would be absolutely beautiful.

 

[R_N]

Or they just shrug and put a slightly chilly area. Sure. Here's some ice pokemon. SWSH is probably the earliest you get ice type pokemon in any plentiful capacity thanks to the wild area's weather system. But while that's obviously a mechanics caveat for the area, let's also remember USUM added Smoochum & Seel ( Iknow only dewgong is ice type but its at elast ice adjacent) to a little side cave off the beaten path.

If any region should've had more ice pokemon throughout its time it honestly should've been Sinnoh. It's clearly designed as a colder region over all but no, all the ice types are saved for the icy, snowy mountains. Such is the way of Aesthetic.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

If any region should've had more ice pokemon throughout its time it honestly should've been Sinnoh. It's clearly designed as a colder region over all but no, all the ice types are saved for the icy, snowy mountains.

Good point, Platinum really had no excuse.

What about Unova though? That region had legit seasons.
How early could you get an Ice-type there?

 

[Cutefluffysheep]

Good point, Platinum really had no excuse.

What about Unova though? That region had legit seasons.
How early could you get an Ice-type there?

In BW, Vanilite was at the Cold Storage (around the 5th gym). Cryogonal and Cubchoo could only be found at Twist Mountain after the 6th gym. At least in the originals, those are the only Ice options.

 

[R_N]

In BW, Vanilite was at the Cold Storage (around the 5th gym). Cryogonal and Cubchoo could only be found at Twist Mountain after the 6th gym. At least in the originals, those are the only Ice options.

BW2 isn't much better. In fact, it's worse. The Cold Storage was removed entirely & Vanillite is no longer available on Route 6 in the winter; your first ice type will be Cubchoo on Route 7...provided it's the Winter. Twist Mountain, Dragonspiral Tower (Winter encounters) are also post-game, too. Winter Undella Bay provides Spheal & the new Seaside cave provides Seel. Otherwise almost every ice type is quarantined to Giant Chasm.

Fact is, Seasons were 90% aesthetic, assuming the area supported them at all. Most routes had no encoutner table changes.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Well, good thing you can get Ice-types earlier in the latest gens, so GF finally fixed that.

Still salty about that early Ice-Cave not having an Ice Stone in USUM.
Glaceon is ridiculously late in that game, and in general really. I almost never get to use it in-game.