The CAP Kitchen: Non-Competitive Discussion Goes Here

snake_rattler

Bold to assume that I won't have the last laugh...
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Nah man gotta be a Fire/Grass moose with Drought and Chlorophyll, a Water/Flying moost with Drizzle and Swift Swim, and a Rock/Ground moose with Sand Stream and Sand Rush. At that's what a few of us decided last night.

We just gotta rig the next 3 flashCAPs ;)

Also I'm firelights btw
Do you want me to change your name to your Smogon name on the main post or leave it as firelights?
 
Sunfished Looks much better than the art from the poll. It feels final now! Could someone post this artwork to the CAP subsite, rather than the flat color version?
 

Sunfished

:lips:
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Thanks guys!

I don't think it's allowed to change artwork, but it would be pretty rad!

And sure. I have some free time, so styling some of the cap art like this would be a fun past time, and help me immensely on learning how to get this style down
 

Quanyails

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cuz CAP needs more bunnies :3

---
darmico - there's reasons why prevos aren't made for LC, a quick search brings up these posts (there's probably more):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/proposal-making-caps-for-metagames-other-- than-ou-24-hr-language-amendment.3470798/#post-4453972
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pre-evo-poll-postponed.3468554/#post-4290404
That said, there's nothing to stop you running your own server with them included, of course :]
Now that CAP LC is a thing, do you think you could make shinies? :D

HeaL also mentioned on PS! that there could be a few tweaks to the current renders: the shine on the head makes it look balloony, and the image as a whole looks a bit big for a first-stage Pokemon.
 

Quanyails

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Also, now that CAP LC is out, I made party icons for all of the CAP pre-evos. :D

Here's the full icon sheet with every CAP up to Kerfluffle (even the unfinished pre-evos), separated by generation (please full-view):


Edit: Updated Scratchet and Monohm according to KrazyCake's feedback. :)
Edit 2: Made the image link a permalink. (On Imgur.)
 
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Also, now that CAP LC is out, I made party icons for all of the CAP pre-evos. :D

Here's the full icon sheet with every CAP up to Kerfluffle (even the unfinished pre-evos), separated by generation (please full-view):
Oh my, these are amazing! Could I be a naughty nit picking nit picker? Scratchets nose and body shape looks a bit off imo and maybe you should move Monohms head back by a little bit. That being said, I really like what you've done Quany.
 
Also, now that CAP LC is out, I made party icons for all of the CAP pre-evos. :D

Here's the full icon sheet with every CAP up to Kerfluffle (even the unfinished pre-evos), separated by generation (please full-view):


Edit: Updated Scratchet and Monohm according to KrazyCake's feedback. :)
Cap lc exists now? since when, tis absolutely amazing.
 

LucarioOfLegends

Real Life Schrodinger's Cat
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Sun and Moon's third FlashCAP has finally arrived!

Art by garbagery (link: http://i.imgur.com/e2iqDO8.jpg)




Name: Holloqua (by lordpinecone)
TL: Ria/LucarioOfLegends (Ria originally led the project, but gave the reigns to me when they had to leave.)
Typing: Water / Ghost
Abilities: Emergency Exit / Stall
Stats: (by Ria) 105/70/120/125/105/80 | 605
Submitted by sparktrain

Cyclohm Reloaded: A Pokemon that effectively makes use of one or more abilities not commonly seen in the CAP metagame.

Threats: Hazards, Bulky Setup, Nature's Madness, Flame Orb Colossoil (Check), Plasmanta (Check), Greninja (Check), Malaconda (Counter), Mollux (Counter), Dark Types, Electric Types, Grass types, Ghost types

Dual Screen
FlashCAP @ Light Clay
Ability: Emergency Exit
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Light screen
- Reflect
- Scald
- Recover

Z-Curse
FlashCAP @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Emergency Exit
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spa
- Curse
- Scald
- Wish
- Shadow Ball / Protect / Toxic

Bulky Attacker
FlashCAP @ Leftovers
Ability: Emergency Exit/ Stall
252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Shadow Ball
- Ice Beam/U-Turn
- Recover

Trick Room
FlashCAP @ Lefties
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spa
Modest Nature
- Hydro pump/scald
- Shadow Ball
- Trick Room
- U turn

Hex
FlashCAP @ Leftovers
Ability: Stall
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Hex
- Scald
- Recover

Other Options: Surf, Skill Swap

Level Up:
-Hydro Pump
-Hex
-Wrap
2 - Water Sport
5 - Wrap
9 - Poison Sting
14 - Astonish
19 - Bubble Beam
24 - Reflect
24 - Light Screen
28 - Psywave
33 - Hex
38 - Muddy Water
42 - Skill Swap
47 - Shadow Ball
52 - Recover
55 - Hydro Pump

Egg Moves:
Water 2 and Amorphous
Wish (Alomomola)
Magic Room (Misdreavus)
Wonder Room (Misdreavus)

TMs:
Toxic
Hidden Power
Ice Beam
Hyper Beam
Light Screen
Protect
Rain Dance
Frustration
Return
Shadow Ball
Double Team
Reflect
Torment
Facade
Rest
Attract
Round
Scald
Shadow Claw
Giga Impact
Swagger
Sleep Talk
U-turn
Substitute
Trick Room
Surf
Waterfall
Confide

Sun: Holloqua have long lost their purpose and are left to only drift aimlessly.

Moon: Creatures of deep sorrow, they are drawn to crying with the goal of soothing grief.

While certainly not experienced in TLing FlashCAPs, I think this project turned out pretty well, and can certainly rival with Elktrolysis and Chisphera. During Ria's time, Emergency Exit was an extremely interesting choice, as it was a decent ability, just without the right user. There were also quite a few other abilities that rallied support such as Rattled, Compound Eyes, and Liquid Ooze, but Emergency Exit was just able to edge them out. Stall was a very interesting choice of second ability, as the reasoning behind was to force players to use Emergency Exit because it had no better options. It is still used in some sets however, as it functions well with the prospect of slowturning in Pokemon that would otherwise have trouble switching in. Its great special attack and good defenses means that it serves well as a Bulky Attacker, being able to smash foes with strong Shadow Balls and Hydro Pumps. Recover is also added to a shocking number of sets, so Holloqua is a truly formidable foe. Some of the more interesting sets used more unique ideas, such as Curse and Dual Screens, which add a bit of variety to the mon. Overall, this FlashCAP would be an absolute beast in the current metagame, with great stats all round and a wide amount of utility in its movepool. The idea of redoing Cyclohm's concept certainly turned out a very interesting product. Thank you so much Ria for this opportunity, and thank you all who participated for making an awesome FlashCAP!
 

snake_rattler

Bold to assume that I won't have the last laugh...
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Dang I missed the flashCAP...

Emergency Exit Trick Room actually sounds like the most frustrating thing ever with negative priority lol
 
So with encouragement of the discord, I've decided to sculpt some sculptures of capmons I've made here
In order:
1: Naviathan calm mind
2: Naviathan dragon dance
3: Pyroak
4: Crucibelle(mega)
IMG_20170325_211536.jpg
IMG_20170325_211838.jpg

IMG_20170524_080059.jpg

IMG_20170320_204709.jpg
 
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I would like to bring up a couple points about flavour, realism and other non-competitive aspects of CAPs.

I am certainly not the first to notice how bloated CAP BSTs tend to be. Actual, non-special Pokémon very rarely exceed 535, a situation not shared by about two thirds of current CAPs. This, while unrealistic, is a consequence of the CAPs' inherently competitive and specialized design and I guess cannot be helped much. This also applies to some odd movepool choices.

There is however a characteristic which is often unrealistic without any need to be such, as it has no competitive impact whatsoever. That is, the internal organization of level-up movepools.

- Actual Pokémon tend to follow patterns in the way the learn moves, such as every 4 levels, every 3-4-5 levels in a recurring loop, and so on. The intervals of CAP Pokémon tend to be way more random, sometimes with oddly large gaps. This isn't really unprecedented, as the level-up movepools of several G6 Pokémon appear similarly random (including Chespin which has a huge 9-level gap between 18 and 27); this randomness might be a result of in-game considerations, however.

- Most moves are learnt by real Pokémon in a variedly fixed range of levels. For example, on average Fake Out is an early move (never after level 22), while Wring Out is among the last moves a Pokémon learns (never under 37); yet Kitsunoh learns Fake Out at 35 and Revenankh (pre-update) learned it at 9.

- Finally, CAP movesets tend to make little sense when compared to their pre-evolutions; for example Scratchet's levels are wildly different from Tomohawk's (which make even less sense on their own). Most importantly, when actual Pokémon evolve by level in most cases the levels at which they learn moves are consistently delayed, the usual delay being 1 level for the first move after the minimum evolution level, 2 levels for the seconds, and so on; some Pokémon (such ar Mareanie) get higher delays (e.g. increasing by 2/3 instead of 1), while some get no delays at all. This is not as consistent for CAPs, mainly because the pre-evolutions are always designed later and whoever makes the movepool has to abide to the precedent set by the evolved form.

I do think all of this is somewhat of a problem, flavour-wise. Encouraging those who submit movepools to have a look at how actual movepools work would be nice, but the pre-evolution problem still stands. The main issue, I think, is that the evolution line is not designed as a unit. TM and tutor moves pose no problems as they can be just removed from the pre-evolution's movepool, so this only applies to level-up (and possibly egg) moves. I could see two solutions:

- Design the level-up movepool of a full evolution line in one shot. This would be the most consistent outcome, however it would create logistic problems as the very existence of pre-evolutions is decided later in the process, and mandating it earlier would be burdensome.
- Design the whole thing as usual (final form only); then, in the pre-evolution stage, allow for slight shuffling of the final form's levels to account for delays and evolution moves (the new G7 mechanic). No new moves of any kind would be allowed to be added at this stage.

(Of course all of this has no competitive impact whatsoever and CAPs are not actually meant to be programmed in a real Pokémon-styled game, so none of this has to be actually followed nor implemented or anything; I just like consistency.)

A more meaningful thing I wanted to propose is including universal TM/tutor moves by default, whether they are included in the movepool submissions or not, unless there are competitive/flavour reasons to not include them. This would solve odd cased like Aurumoth not getting Snore and Cyclohm not getting Swagger pre-update, while not disqualifying valid movepools which somehow forgot a universal move.

As an unrelated note, would it be possible to add Pokédex entries to the CAP pages on-site since in most cases they exist but are buried deep in the process archive?
 
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HeaLnDeaL

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Overall, almost all of your critiques have already been addressed in modern CAP.

I am certainly not the first to notice how bloated CAP BSTs tend to be. Actual, non-special Pokémon very rarely exceed 535, a situation not shared by about two thirds of current CAPs. This, while unrealistic, is a consequence of the CAPs' inherently competitive and specialized design and I guess cannot be helped much. This also applies to some odd movepool choices.
The BST of OU mons are much higher than the BST of just the average joe Pokemon. OU is full of 600 and 570 BST mons and many of the mons with lower-end BST have abilities that skew the power of one of their stats anyway. And you yourself note, we are a competitive project, so if we're going to compete with the competitive scene without resorting to broken stat-altering abilities, then usually a higher than 535 BST is needed.

Actual Pokémon tend to follow patterns in the way the learn moves, such as every 4 levels, every 3-4-5 levels in a recurring loop, and so on. The intervals of CAP Pokémon tend to be way more random, sometimes with oddly large gaps. This isn't really unprecedented, as the level-up movepools of several G6 Pokémon appear similarly random (including Chespin which has a huge 9-level gap between 18 and 27); this randomness might be a result of in-game considerations, however.
As someone who has both submitted for and led moves stages in gen6, I can tell you for a fact that a number of people take level up patterns very seriously. Not every submitter follows them, but many do and many modern cap movepools have won with level up move patterns.

- Finally, CAP movesets tend to make little sense when compared to their pre-evolutions; for example Scratchet's levels are wildly different from Tomohawk's (which make even less sense on their own). Most importantly, when actual Pokémon evolve by level in most cases the levels at which they learn moves are consistently delayed, the usual delay being 1 level for the first move after the minimum evolution level, 2 levels for the seconds, and so on; some Pokémon (such ar Mareanie) get higher delays (e.g. increasing by 2/3 instead of 1), while some get no delays at all. This is not as consistent for CAPs, mainly because the pre-evolutions are always designed later and whoever makes the movepool has to abide to the precedent set by the evolved form.

I do think all of this is somewhat of a problem, flavour-wise. Encouraging those who submit movepools to have a look at how actual movepools work would be nice, but the pre-evolution problem still stands. The main issue, I think, is that the evolution line is not designed as a unit. TM and tutor moves pose no problems as they can be just removed from the pre-evolution's movepool, so this only applies to level-up (and possibly egg) moves. I could see two solutions:

- Design the level-up movepool of a full evolution line in one shot. This would be the most consistent outcome, however it would create logistic problems as the very existence of pre-evolutions is decided later in the process, and mandating it earlier would be burdensome.
- Design the whole thing as usual (final form only); then, in the pre-evolution stage, allow for slight shuffling of the final form's levels to account for delays and evolution moves (the new G7 mechanic). No new moves of any kind would be allowed to be added at this stage.
I've witnessed a number of main CAP movepool submissions have a "gap zone" during the change in the level up pattern intending this to be a evolution zone. It does happen. The problem, of course, is that doing such a thing in a main cap movepool is a guessing game since prevos aren't guaranteed. Ultimately, however, CAPmons are a server product and trying to shift levels to match a prevo and evo really isn't that big of a concern. As you mentioned yourself, even some of gamefreak's mons get no dealys at all.

A more meaningful thing I wanted to propose is including universal TM/tutor moves by default, whether they are included in the movepool submissions or not, unless there are competitive/flavour reasons to not include them. This would solve odd cased like Aurumoth not getting Snore and Cyclohm not getting Swagger pre-update, while not disqualifying valid movepools which somehow forgot a universal move.
Once again, modern CAP does take this very seriously and universal moves are usually required. The examples you're refferring to are very old and have been fixed with the updates anyway.

Really, I think you are looking at the very old CAPmons and using their logic to build a picture of the current CAP rules. However, CAP has changed a lot over time and your points have largely already been addressed and incorporated into the CAP process for quite some time already.
 

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