The Dark Side Of OU

Jamesb8

The Dark Side Of OU (Advice needed)

THE DARK SIDE OF OU​


Few know of it and even less speak of it.​




Hi this is my first RMT “THE DARK SIDE OF OU” it's not that great please give me some hints (I think it might need a bulky water?)

At a Glance

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Mamoswine Adamant
Snow Cloak@Focus Sash 252Atk/252Spe/6Def
SR
Earthquake
Ice Shard
Stone Edge

Kills off a lot of other leads and sometimes gets the rocks down. Works well, haven’t used a better lead. Focus sash is a great item on Mamoswine as Mamo doesn’t take any damage from either Sandstorm or Hail meaning the basis of Tyranitar and Abomasnow aren’t as effective at sash breaking. Snow Cloak naturally helps against Abomasnow. Stone Edge has been reinluded as it is greatly missed against Gyarados, Zapdos and other stuff I didn't relise it was so important against.
P.S. I once swept with Mamoswine without using any other Pokemon.

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= Earthquake twice to finish them off.

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= Earthquake and if it’s still alive finish with ice shard for a pretty much a guaranteed KO I then Proceed to Stealth rock if they used Stealth rock first or I am pretty much dead with 1 HP and will ice shard as I go down. (Mamoswine easily out speeds Metagross)

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= back to using Scizor to pursuit them
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= Earthquake on the first move and if they use fake out switch to Heatran anticipating fire blast or flamethrower and then hopefully switch to Heatran to absorb the attack and go from there. Gyrados would be really useful here. If they used Stealth rock or fire blast I finish them with Ice Shard.

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= Set up Stealth rock on the first turn and then deal with him from there as I have no grass moves
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= Mamoswine's Earthquake deals huge amounts of damage and has the possibility of OHKOing through the resistence berry. SR isn't usually got up on my team so Adamant is bet.

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= same as befor Scizor will pursuit any of these leads. Not that you see them very much.
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= 40% chance of OHKOing due to Iron head 60% chance to flinch. Either Lucario can grab his speed boost or Mamoswine can EQ and if he gets tricked a scarf or CB will become a nice Revenge Killer later. Jirachi stops me from being able get up SR sadly.

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= Smeargle is the worst lead for my team to face as residual damage kills my team fast and nothing can afford to go to sleep. Smeargle a huge annoyance but the best bet is Ice Shard. mamo falls Asleep and then Scizor Bullt Punches. Sleep but no Hazzards.

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= Areodactyl is swiftly 2HKOed by ice shard and either gets down Stealth Rock or taunts and achieves nothing.

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Scizor Adamant
Technician@Choice Band 252Atk/248HP/4Spe/6Def
U-Turn
Bullet Punch
Superpower
Pursuit

Scizor is great for this team as its only weakness is fire which can give Heatran a very easy switch. Scizor is also very important early in the game and can use U-Turn to scout the opponent’s team for Pokémon like Infernape and other fire types. Bullet Punch is a great move to compensate for Scizor’s low speed even though the coverage is poor its base power is boosted to 135 through Technician, STAB and Choice Band.
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Lucario Adamant
Inner Focus@Life Orb 252Atk/252Spe/6Def
Swords Dance
Close Combat
Extreme Speed
Bullet Punch

Bullet Punch is used to deal with Tyranitars wearing a scarf and Gengar's as Suggested and the Nature has gone to Adamant as I see no reason for Jolly with two priority moves. Lucario is a good late game sweeper and is extremely good at killing weakened opponents. Ice Punch is an okay option because Scizor and Tyranitar should be able to deal with ghosts earlier in the match.
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Latias Timid
Levitate@Choice Scarf 252Satk/252Spe/6Hp
Draco Meter
Surf
Thunderbolt
Trick

A menace of a revenge Killer and another answer to Infernape (the other being heatran.) Easily outspeeds and terminates with surf. If I let Infernape get a nasty plot Fire Blast OHKO's. Is there Nothing Mix ape can't do. Anyway helps with fighting and Ground Synergy. takes out waters with thunderbolt. Trick hampers anything that uses status or setup.
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Heatran Naive
Flash Fire@Choice Scarf 252Spatk/252Spe/6Atk
Fire Blast
Explosion
Earth Power
Dragon pulse

He is a very useful revenge killer who’s fire blast 2HKO’s Salamence who resists the move (OMG). This is a great example of Heatran’s immense power and when combined with a choice scarf he becomes a great revenge killer. In the team Gengar covers his weakness except for water and he perfectly covers Scizors weakness’. This facts make Heatran a great team player, revenge killing threats and synergizing with Scizor and covering Lucario’s Fire weakness. he is going to stay like this for now as the team dosen't require status in toxic as nothing else could stall enough anyway.
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Rotom-H Bold
Leftovers@Levitate 252HP/168def/88Spe
Thunder Bolt
Shadow Ball
Overheat
Will-O-Wisp

Rotom-H
Rotom-H can come in on things he is immune to and cripple Physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp. He heps with a lot of stuff that thretens my team with thunderbolt and covers the allways present steel weakness of Fighting and ground. deals with waters that stop my team.

I was thinking bulky gyrados could be good on this team also Expert Belt Electivire would beat specs Jolteon with Earthquake and could be a good choice. My team is very weak to fighting, fire, water and ground moves all of which are common and might need a bit of fixing up.Swapert has been upgraded to free reign with these changes. Thanks for your help anyone who replies!
haven't finished the lead Threat ist yet get to it soon.
 
If you're having trouble with Azelf and Gengar Leads, try changing stone edge to bite on mamoswine, gets a 2KO on both with Ice Shard
 
Hi.

Ok, this team is massacred by several commonly used offensive threats, mainly, Heatran, DD Gyarados, Metagross and MixApe. Nothing can switch-in on Heatran without any risks of getting KOed. It outspeeds your whole team with a Choice Scarf and ties with your own Heatran which is OHKOed by Earthpower. DD Gyarados shreds this team to pieces as I see it. It gets plenty of opportunities to set-up, such as Scizor locked onto Bullet Punch or Pursuit, Mamoswine after Intimidate and Heatran locked onto Earthpower. From there it can OHKO your whole team after a single DD barring Scizor who cannot do anything back. While not seen much outside of a lead position, Metagross especially AgilGross can do considerable damage to your team surely. It can set-up on Scizor locked onto Bullet Punch or Pursuit, and Heatran locked onto Dragon Pulse. If it does get an Agility, which is quite possible, it can sweep your team clean as Meteor Mash takes down Gengar, Tyranitar and Maoswine; while Earthquake hits Lucario and Heatran for SE damage. MixApe is also worth a mention since your only way of beating it is by revenge killing it with Heatran or Lucario with Extreme Speed, while it can easily KO your Pokemons with the appropriate move. A big issue with this team is the lack of a water resist as well.

Now, Tyranitar on this team is rather redundant, as special attackers are already covered by Scizor except for Rotom-A which is nicely covered by Heatran who can use Overheat to launch powerful Fire Blasts. Both Latias, Gengar and many others are covered by Scizor. In addition, Tyranitar adds to your Fighting, Water and Ground weakness, so it really doesn't fit the team much because it's resistances aren't needed and the threats it checks are already covered. Also, I don't see what you are trying to achieve with Tyranitar since your set is horribly walled by Skarmory and other physical walls in addition to be easily revenge killed. Overall, it doesn't bring much to the table.

What I think this team lacks is a bulky Water able to take on Gyarados, Heatran, Metagross and Heatran while still being able to be a threat to the foe's team. The best thing you can do here is replace Tyranitar wich doesn't particularly fit the team with an offensive CM three attack Suicune. This change will allow you to deal with the after mentioned threats while providing a crucial water resist and a dangerous boosting special sweeper. Here's the set:

Suicune @ Leftovers
Timid | 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Surf | Calm Mind | HP Electric | Ice Beam / Roar

The EV Spread allows you to outspeed Adamant max speed Lucario and Timid max speed Heatran which is rather crucial. The choice between Ice Beam and Roar is yours. Ice Beam provides good coverage but Salamence and Celebi are already checked by Scizor and Mamoswine while CroCune is a threat to this team.

On Gengar, Icy Wind is useless as the speed drop won't benefit Gengar seeing as his speed is already high. A better replacement would be either Thunderbolt which provides decent coverage and helps against Gyarados.

Finally, since Tyranitar isn't on the team, Scizor will be your check to Latias, Gengar and Special attackers in general, I would advise you to use a more bulky EV Spread to try and check those more reliably. 248 HP / 176 Atk / 76 SpDef / 8 Spe works perfectly here.

Good Luck.
 
Thanks for your help Nosferalto what do you think of these two pokemon.

Thank you I have taken your advise into consideration Nosferalto and wonder what you would think of these ideas. I also wonder what anyone else thinks about Auraknight's idea of the bite on my lead Mamoswine. I think these two pokemon might suit my style of play better than Suicune as they work rather more agressively.

Gyarados Adamant
Intimidate@Leftovers 156HP/56Def/148Sdef/144Spe/4Atk
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Earthquake

Gyarados would be a nice surprising answer to Infernape who gets murdered by waterfall, it also comes in as a second option (the other being Gengar) to a scarftran locked into earth power, otherwise my own Heatran comes in. The Ev’s allow it to come in on an Infernape nasty plot and Dragon Dance on the grass knot before out speeding and killing with Waterfall. Adamant with no Atk ev’s is used because it offers more power than less ev’s in speed and some in Atk and a Jolly Nature. Gyarados is really useful as it gives me a STAB Water Move and a Fighting resist and another ground Immunity. While it out speeds all Infernape’s it doesn’t out speed Positive base 110’s. Infernape only being at 108. (After a Dragon Dance of Course) I also have an ev spread set for An Infernape with just enough speed to outrun base 100's but it seems a lot more risky. 156HP/70Def/148Sdef/136Spe

OR

Gyarados Jolly
Intimidate@Leftovers 156HP/148Sdef/96Def/60Spe/50Atk
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Stone Edge
Earthquake

This set is very similar to the on above but out speeds all Base 110’s After a Dragon Dance and has a lot more defensive bulk at the cost of only 21 points of Attack and only 31 After a Dragon Dance. I also think it is good to finally have a Pokémon with a setup move for better attacking stats. Gyarados would replace Tyranitar on my team who was only rechecking Pokémon and damaging opposing teams with sandstorm, sandstorm also gave the Option of beating a Smeargle lead if Mamo went Jolly.

Rotom-C Bold
Levitate@Leftovers 252HP/168Def/88Spe
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Will-O-Wisp
HP Fighting

This is a basic Rotom Forme and is only C to scare Swampert who can only be hurt by Gengar. Rotom gives me my only electric move and can Will-o-Wisp many Physical threats and murder Gyarados even if he will need some prediction to switch in. The ev’s are standard on the Smogon server and gives him staying power. A good option on both my Rotom’s would be to change to a H variant to counter Metagross as it has been pointed out I need. Rotom would replace Lucario I think as he is really quite slow for a finishing sweeper and it has lost me many games, he doesn’t really counter threats and I think he is my second weakest team member; he doesn’t even offer useful synergy. (does he???)

OR

Rotom- C Timid
Levitate@Choice Specs 4HP/252Satk/252Spe
Thunderbolt
Shadow Ball
Leaf Storm
Trick

This Rotom version gives me a very powerful team player that has the same style of play as the rest of the team. A choice Scarf might work better as it would give me the chance to cripple Agiligross far better than choice specs by tricking him choice scarf while gets locked into earthquake. Metagross’ speed on the Standard Agility set gets to 418 after 1 boost where Choice Scarf Rotom-C reaches 447 with a positive nature and nutural only gives you 406.

After Some Consideration
I think either of these sets on Rotom-H with Overheat in Place of the Hidden Power or Leaf Storm could also work well. (I like Rotom-C is he is way cooler but I don’t think he will work as well on my team.)
 
Personally Rotom W does the whole Specs thing best, followed by Rotom H. The reason is that their 'special' moves have so much better coverage. Personally I think a Specs Rotom W or a Scarf Rotom H would work very well on this team, however, if they were to be used Genger would prob have to go. I know that he is your team player and everything but the Rotom forms are better defence wise and can prob switch into things better.

Give Lucario Crunch

An alternative spread for a possiable suicune is as follows
Suicune@ Leftovers
Pressure
Timid
160 HP, 120 SpA, 228 Spe
Surf
Ice Beam
HP Electric
Calm Mind.
This set is less bulkyier that the one Nosf gave you but in exchange hits harder and can outspeed more things.

Having used this set myself I can say that this kicks arse. Leftovers over Life Orb so that is does not die to easily becasue whenever your opponent sees a suicune they try and wear it down (they fail often lol)

The Gyarados sets are ok but I would Prob use the smogon Bulky Gyar sets as they have taunt and can set up on a surprising number of things

Good Luck
 
If it wasn't suggested before, make Mamoswine Jolly. One of the main advantages of leadswine is that it can OHKO AND outspeed Shuca Tran, and without a +speed nature, it doesn't outspeed. Jolly is much better than Adamant because of this, and Mamoswine doesn't miss out on something big when losing Adamant.
 
You requested a rate, and I shall oblige:

I think Nosferalto really summed things up well. You have a large weakness to Gyarados, as well as Agiligross and infernape. A set fairly similar to the first Rotom set you posted would deal with Gyarados and Metagross well, but Hp Fighting is rather redundant (it does rather pathetic damage to Ttar); I would suggest you use Overheat or leaf storm instead. I would use him over Gengar, and either take up Nosferalto's suggestion of Suicune or put your Gyarados in over Tyranitar.

If you do you use bulky gyarados, it should have Taunt rather then Earthquake, which offers fairly redundant coverage with the other two moves regardless. This allows it to set up on various walls such as Swampert without getting phazed or crippled.

Mamoswine's nature Jolly on Mamoswine drastically reduces that 2HKO chance on Azelf, making Bite a poor option on Jolly mamoswine. I would use either Stone Edge, which offers coverage, or Ice Fang, which will OHKO Gliscor leads most of the time. Jolly does, however, improve your performance against Heatran, but you have a good chance of missing the OHKO (and gaining no advantage). Smeargle is not a good reason to use Jolly. It will more or less always die to two attacks, so bringing it down to its sash is of relatively little use - you may as well just use Ice Shard. If you chose to keep Tyranitar as I would not recommend, this is different as you can finish Smeargle off with SS. Just to help you make an informed decision...

Lucario's last move: Crunch is probably the superior option. This lets you beat Celebi, Dusknoir, Rotom-A and Cresselia among others. Ice punch is a pretty useless option - almost all Gliscor nowadays will outrun you regardless of you Jolly nature. If you think Ghosts can be dealt with, you should run an Adamant nature. Stone Edge is probably the main option if you don't like crunch, because this lets you fight through Gyarados and Zapdos. However, there is one final and very surprising option in Bullet punch, which will allow you to beat Scarf Tyranitar and Gengar reliably. I don't know how common Scarf Tar is on Wifi, but on shoddy it is incredibly common, particularly among better players, and is often the only check to Lucario in a team.

Steadfast/Inner Focus. Inner Focus is the primary option in the analysis for a reason. Lucario really cannot afford to flinch. The only pokemon I can think of that is likely to flinch you is Scarf Jirachi (scarf Togekiss OHKOes with Aura Sphere, pretty much anything else carries a flinch move that does appreciable damage is slower than you). You cannot be flinched on the switch, so the opponent must make a conscious decision to do so, and in doing so it will usually be a last-ditch effort. You taking a surprising 25-30% from Iron head, and you will not outrun it at +1. This means that you will take 25-30% on the switch, a further 25-30% as you flinch, and then another before you get a chance to KO. At this point, the absolute maximum amount of health you can have is 15%, KO range for any priority move if you include LO recoil, and for most ignoring it. Even if you are not hit on the switch, you can be KOed by Scizor's bullet punch. The opponent will not do this unless they have this sort of support. The chance of anyone using fake out on you is minimal.

Heatrans nature should be changed to Naive as not to weaken explosion.

Good luck.
 
Thanks so much for the help as I can see these improvments working well but...

I think Mamoswine can stay Adamant as he has a focus sash to deal with Heatran and Priority if he doesn't. Suicune and Rotom are good ideas but sadly as both the sets can't effectively counter an Infernape with grass knot. Come in on Nasty Plot and they both get ripped to shreds next move (Suicune is OHKOed by grass knot and any Rotom is OHKOed even without the nasty plot by fire Blast). The Bulk on the Gyarados on Smogon is quite possibly a better Idea as if I have taken any previous damage I am in a lot of trouble anyway. Taunt is a definite Update though. So in conclusion I thank you all for your help but I can’t see how I can effectively counter mixape with any of these sets.

I can easily see Rotom coming in over Gengar but think it should be a Rotom-C with leaf Storm as Otherwise I have no options against Swampert as it is my only Pokémon with a grass move.

So in conclusion I can see all these Ideas helping my team significantly I can easily still see a daring mixape with nasty plot and grass knot running through my team with ease. The only option that could stop him every time is my Bulky Gyarados but only if it had taken no prior damage which is borderline impossible with Infernape only coming out late game and Gyarados taking 25% from just switching into SR. Gyarados or Suicune are defiantly valid inclusions as they stop Infernape coming out even though they can’t come in on him.
 
Bulky water type can easily switch in and as you have 3 water weaknesses and no resists they can easily sweep. A bulky starmie sweeper can take down most of the team once tyrantitar is gone, even if he stays in it's an easy 2HKO with surf. i'd say put a water resister in the team, rotom-h could fit well in the team with replacing gengar or heatran, he resists water and can easily ko them with thunderbolt as well as scare off anything else with WoW.
 
in response to your infernape problem, authough it can set up on you Heatran can revege when you bait it. eg Infernape comes in, you switch to suicunbe and it Nasty Plots, you then go to heatran to take the Grass knot and KO with Earth Power.
However you still get screwed by Vacum Wave ones as VW KO's Heatran.

Short of having a Latias over Gengar or you decide to use a Starmie (which outspeeds) however there is not much I think I can suggest without overhauling the team.
 
Thanks Ginganinja I have previously used heatran and never though a compettitive infernape would run a Priority fighting move with close combat. But then after it was mentioned that I was Infernape weak I thought about it and realised that after a nasty Plot vacuum wave had two thirds the power of close combat, more than I had previously anticipated and when coupled with Priority and no defence drops (not that they really matter to Infernape) I could see it had more viability than I had first realised. I like the idea of using Starmie over Suicune or Gyarados and then sticking Rotom-H over Gengar. This will still leave me Swampert weak but I think it is a very good idea. PS. I think I would prefer the Bulkeir Rotom builds on either a Rotom-C or a Rotom-H
 
You need a way to deal with several threats that could prove troublesome for your team. The main concern is Dragon Dance Gyarados. Getting Scizor or Heatran locked into any of its moves (besides U-turn) means Gyarados gets a free switch-in to do its deadly dance, where it then seals your teams doom. You have nothing that can outspeed Gyarados after a Dragon Dance, nothing that resists Water and nothing that walls Gyarados. Considering Gyarados is one of the most dominant Pokemon in the game, this is something that needs to be addressed ASAP.

First off, I suggest you replace your Gengar with a Latias.

Latias @ Life Orb | Timid
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252
Draco Meteor / Surf / Thunderbolt / Recover

You say that Gengar acts as a gule for your team. However, considering Gengar is incredibly frail, I don't see how Gengar can act as glue for your team. Unlike Gengar, Latias is rather bulky and can take quite a few hits before going down. Latias also packs a handy Water resist so it can check Gyarados if need be. Latias also retains Gengar's Ground immunity and resists Fighting, plus it can use Recover to heal the damage off. The set is pretty simple. Draco Meteor badly injures anything that doesn't resist it, Surf gets good coverage and Thunderbolt hurts bulky Waters.

Now, you'll need some good glue for your team. Namely, you need resistances to Water, Fighting and Ground. I recommend you ditch Tyranitar with a Gyarados.

Gyarados @ Leftovers | Impish
248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Waterfall / Roar / Rest / Sleep Talk

I think that Tyranitar isn't doing much for your team. Ghost types are handled by Scizor and Heatran and special attackers are taken care of by Scizor and Latias. With that said, I believe that Gyarados would be more productive for the team as a whole. Gyarados' impressive defenses, Intimidate and resistances means it can function as a go-to guy for most threatening situations. It also handles opposing Gyarados to an extent, Intimidating them and phazing them out with Roar. It also deals with Heatran, who would otherwise be troublesome.

Now for miscellaneous changes. First off, I don't really like the use of Bite on your Mamoswine. Whilst you can kill off Azelf leads, you don't need to do this with a change of play and Bite is useless after this besides denting the very rare Cresselia. I suggest you use Protect over Bite. The main benefit of Protect is getting Stealth Rock up against Infernape without being forced out due to Fake Out breaking your Focus Sash. Otherwise, you have to switch out to Latias or Gyarados, and since Mamoswine isn't the sturdiest Pokemon out there, you may not get a good oppurtunity to switch back in and set up Stealth Rock then. To deal with Azelf, set up Stealth Rock first turn as they do, use Ice Shard as it breaks Mamoswine's Sash, let Mamoswine die, then send in Scizor to Bullet Punch.

Speaking of Bullet Punch, I think you should drop it on your Lucario. Bullet Punch is only really useful against Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Gengar, both of which are killed off by Scizor. Crunch would be more useful for Lucario, so it doesn't get walled by defensive Rotom-A and Celebi.

Good luck with your team.
 
Just a quick thing, but always use Jolly on Mamoswine leads to ensure that you beat Heatran. Otherwise they outspeed you, which means that instead of killing them and retaining your Sash, you're left at 1 HP, easy pickings for a Scizor or whatever.
 
Hello,

You asked me for a rate, so I will not hesitate to give you my suggestions on your team.
Well, to be honest your team really has some major weaknesses. These are twofold:
First, your team has huge problems with some specific sweepers, that being offensive Suicune, Infernape, DD Kingdra and DD Gyarados. This leads me to the second thing, which is your defensive synergy in the team. you have 3 water weaknesses and no resist. also you have 3 fighting weaknesses and only one immunity (a very frail one). Gengar also is your only Ground resist while you have 3 weaknesses. Another problem i see is the fact that Scizor and Tyranitar play too similar roles in your team. Also, Heatran is your only revenge killer, but it's quite unable to revenge anything with a speed boosing move. So here are my suggestions on how to improve that:

Mamoswine: Definitely don't use Bite. Use either Endeavour, Protect or Stone Edge, as suggested in the analyses. Bite only hits stuff you will be able to hit hard anyway, so it's really not worth using.

Scizor: Well, I would drop it completely and replace it with a reliable revenge killer, that is also able to take water, fighting and ground attacks for your team. Scarf Latias comes to my mind:
Latias@Choice Scarf
Timid-252SpAtk, 252Spe, 4HP
-Draco Meteor
-Surf
-Trick
-Thunderbolt / Grass Knot
Thunderbolt is preferred as your best bet against Gyarados after DD.

If you do that change from Scizor to Latias, you should change your Ttar set to the usual Scarf Tar, in order to more reliably remove SD Lucario's counters.
Tyranitar@Choice Scarf
Jolly-252Atk, 252Spe, 4HP
-Stone Edge
-Crunch
-Earthquake/Superpower
-Pursuit
It is also an option to keep your Scizor and drop Tyranitar completely for Latias. That choice is up to you.

Gengar: If this set works for you, it's ok. I prefer the MysticGar set fron the analyses because it is able to better take on Tyranitar and Scizor. But that's matter of preference, maybe you should at least test it.

Heatran: I would drop the scarf, as Latias is a better revenge killer. The Substitute set could work for you as it is really hard to counter.
Heatran@Leftovers
Timid-252SpAtk, 252Spe, 4HP
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-Substitute
-Toxic / Will-o-Wisp
Your team does not have any status moves, so this heatran will make up for this.

Lucario: for the 4th slot, if you like Bullet Punch for Scarf Tyranitar, you can keep it. Tyranitar should be able to kill Rotoms for it, so Crunch is not the superior choice. However defensive Zapdos and Gyarados can really stop your sweep, so if you feel lucky with its accuracy Stone Edge is a good option.

Hope I could help. Good Luck !
 
I have Upated the team with some updates that have been suggested and I'm sure there will be new holes in it so i was hoping some more people could fill me in on what thy are. Thanks
 
um...Scizor has way to much evs. Also you are slightly weak to starmie when latias is gone but that gets into the whole "if pokemon X is gone pokemon Y sweeps you etc arguement
 
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