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The De-Uberization.

Who should be considered for OU?

  • All 5 : Deoxys - E, Deoxys - LG, Mew, Wobbuffet, Manaphy.

    Votes: 23 12.3%

  • Everyone but Manaphy and / or Mew.

    Votes: 10 5.3%

  • All of them bar Wobbuffet.

    Votes: 12 6.4%

  • Both Deoxys forms only.

    Votes: 7 3.7%

  • Let's leave it at Deoxys-E.

    Votes: 135 72.2%
  • Total voters
    187
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footballfanatic said:
It's hilarious that people are stating that giving poke ONE free turn to setup is so gamebreaking that it makes Wobbuffet undebatably Uber, and then other people see no problem in giving T-tar ONE free turn to set up.
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There's a difference on the Tyranitar / Manaphy setup debate and the Wobbuffet setup debate. With Tyranitar / Manaphy it's not gamebreaking because it's very specific (Tyranitar only) and it doesn't bother Manaphy since Manaphy can still beat it anyways.

However, with Wobbuffet, ANYTHING can get a free setup, it's not limited to any one pokemon, you get to choose. There is a big difference in situations.
 
I'm going to go on a limb and assume that Colonel M did his calculations based on the fact that Manaphy used Tail Glow on the switch...

Although I will say that Raikou is by no means in hell a Manaphy counter considering a Life Orb Surf does a good 71% Max on a switch in. (Without Nasty Plot)
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
I'm going to go on a limb and assume that Colonel M did his calculations based on the fact that Manaphy used Tail Glow on the switch...

Although I will say that Raikou is by no means in hell a Manaphy counter considering a Life Orb Surf does a good 71% Max on a switch in. (Without Nasty Plot)
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Again, PLEASE, do your calculations right, double-check them even, before posting such things.

Standard CMKOU, with 64 HP EV's and 96 SP.def EV's and a Timid Nature, takes 45.99% - 54.30% from Timid Life Orb Manaphy's Surf on the switchin. Then, after recovering with leftovers, he proceeds to CM before Manaphy hits him with Surf number 2, and gets hit with 31.16% - 36.50% before OHKO'ing Manaphy to hell.

Not to mention since you're using Life orb, Raikou can even OHKO after taking a surf, without having to CM at all. Indeed, any Modest Raikoi can OHKO him at full health and still outspeeds him.

Now how in the world is that "by no means in hell a counter"?? Please, enlighten me.
 
Except one thing Lyfsaho. I DID do them right.

I'll break it down. I used Tail Glow (+2 Special Attack), I am holding a Life Orb (which was still semi-standard), and Timid (which I'd even question myself to use. If this thing was still OU, I'd use Modest for the extra power). 252 Special Attack EVs as well.

Ludicolo, Tentacruel, and Mantine had 252 / 252 Positive spreads. Trust me, I did it twice just to get it, and got the same results. Even so, a spread like that is rare, especially on Tentacruel and possibly Ludicolo. And I can't believe you mentioned Mirror Coat, which is RARELY used as a tactic. It's even more stupid how you go as far as using Mantine in the first place (sorry TheMantyke, I had to say it) to counter him.

I didn't exactly know the true EVs for CMKou (I think I did it with 252 HP) but your statement hurt you even MORE. How you may ask?

With the EVs you suggested, after 1 Tail Glow, Manaphy does 91.39% - 107.42% with Surf. That means I could just lay Stealth Rock and garuntee that OHKO. Without the Tail Glow Surf does 45.99% - 54.30%. If you don't understand what I am saying, it's this: RAIKOU IS NOT A COUNTER TO MANAPHY! Raikou will put a tear to Manaphy, but he can't switch into Surf without being left a big mark in him. And if in the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO that there is Sandstream present, Raikou has no way to recover whatsoever.
 
Colonel M said:
With the EVs you suggested, after 1 Tail Glow, Manaphy does 91.39% - 107.42% with Surf. That means I could just lay Stealth Rock and garuntee that OHKO. Without the Tail Glow Surf does 45.99% - 54.30%. If you don't understand what I am saying, it's this: RAIKOU IS NOT A COUNTER TO MANAPHY! Raikou will put a tear to Manaphy, but he can't switch into Surf without being left a big mark in him. And if in the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO that there is Sandstream present, Raikou has no way to recover whatsoever.
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Raikou was a well accepted counter, even back in the discussions of Manaphy from months ago.

Raikou outspeeds manaphy and CMs. Redo those calculations with +1 CM after the switch-in (remember, Raikou moves first because he is faster) Clearly, Raikou survives. The next turn, Manaphy runs.
 
Raikou can only do that once. As Manaphy runs off to Bliss its efforts are wasted, and it's in KO range next time Manaphy comes in.
 
Hmm... alright. But even so, Raikou doesn't really want to switch in in the first place if after one Tail Glow it will basically almost OHKO, if not it will.

61.13% - 72.11%. One Tail Glow and One Calm Mind (Calm Mind is obviously from Raikou).

31.16% - 36.50%. No Tail Glow and One Calm Mind.

But still, if we compare it like that, without the Tail Glow it's roughly 45 + 31 - 12 = 74% MINIMUM. That's still almost 3/4 of Raikou's HP. I don't think Raikou would like that though, would he? That barely will get you away with one Substitute (you'd have sliver of %'s).

To go even further, I checked if I used Modest. One Tail Glow and one Calm Mind: 67.06% - 78.93%.
 
Raikou can only do that once. As Manaphy runs off to Bliss its efforts are wasted, and it's in KO range next time Manaphy comes in.
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Yeah, I understand that. But Raikou is a clear counter to Manaphy. That is a certainty.
 
If he switches in to a Tail Glow, he's 2HKO'd if he CMs twice in a row and Manaphy survives if he doesn't. Barely a counter...
 
Oh, and did you guys seem to forget that Manaphy WAS in OU for awhile? Remember that? Was NOT fun to beat, and you couldn't get a very reliable counter that isn't otherwise useless.
 
the Lexx said:
If it can only do it once, it isn't a real "counter" then, is it?
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Yes it is, because then Manaphy switched out. A counter is the most well defined word in the Smogon dictionary. A counter can switch into any of the attacking pokemon's moves, and then cripple, KO, or force it out before itself dies.

Chris is me said:
If he switches in to a Tail Glow, he's 2HKO'd if he CMs twice in a row and Manaphy survives if he doesn't. Barely a counter...
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Raikou with 96 Sp. Attack and neutral nature deals 94.06% - 110.64% to 252 HP Manaphy with CM Thunderbolt. It OHKOs Manaphy if it doesn't have any HP. With 0 HP/Sp. Def EVs, Raikou always survives a Life Orb Tail Glow Surf after a CM.

Assuming Life Orb, Manaphy always loses as Raikou then T-Bolts.
 
I see what you mean Dragontamer. However, as annoying as theorymon can get, you can still get screwed over if you mispredict and land on a Surf instead of an expected Tail Glow. Technically however he is the only true counter next to Calm Mind Blissey. Even so, especially on Wi-Fi, it's hard to have a good Raikou and usually it can be rare at times (I understand he is still used, but currently he is BL). Those two (CM Bliss and Raikou) were the only "legitamite" counters that Lyfsaho even posted. Actually I will admit that Ludicolo would be the third... if he has not proceeded to use Tail Glow during the switch-in. Energy Ball with no EV investment does 45.51% - 53.65% to 60 HP Manaphy. Wow, I really underestimated Ludicolo. I am sorry dancing Mexican duck. ;_;
 
Colonel M said:
If you don't understand what I am saying, it's this: RAIKOU IS NOT A COUNTER TO MANAPHY! Raikou will put a tear to Manaphy, but he can't switch into Surf without being left a big mark in him. And if in the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO that there is Sandstream present, Raikou has no way to recover whatsoever.
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I really lol'd here. I hope you have now been explained to better why Raikou is a counter to Manaphy, haha. Jesus, don't post like that unless you know what you're talking about.

Raikou is a counter to Manaphy. Period. Coming in, cm'ing, and killing.

Not to mention, Modest max sp.atk Raikou OHKO's Manaphy and is faster than it- so it can just switch in while Manaphy sets up a Tail Glow, and the OHKO without taking any damage at all.
 
By that same logic, scarf Gengar is a Gyarados counter because it can't be OHKOd by Waterfall on the switch? If the Gyarados user plays smart, it will only work once, then its opponent will get swept.

It sounds shaky at best - you can't really use Raikou as a major reason why Manaphy should be unbanned.
 
Colonel M said:
I see what you mean Dragontamer. However, as annoying as theorymon can get, you can still get screwed over if you mispredict and land on a Surf instead of an expected Tail Glow. Technically however he is the only true counter next to Calm Mind Blissey. Even so, especially on Wi-Fi, it's hard to have a good Raikou and usually it can be rare at times (I understand he is still used, but currently he is BL). Those two (CM Bliss and Raikou) were the only "legitamite" counters that Lyfsaho even posted. Actually I will admit that Ludicolo would be the third... if he has not proceeded to use Tail Glow during the switch-in. Energy Ball with no EV investment does 45.51% - 53.65% to 60 HP Manaphy. Wow, I really underestimated Ludicolo. I am sorry dancing Mexican duck. ;_;
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If you are going to mention how hard it is to get a good Raikou, why not also mention how hard it is to get a good Manaphy. Those who got their Manaphy from Ranger have to deal with the face they have no way of altering the nature sans resetting and have to hope and pray for a good nature and good iv's.

Regarding the Life Orb, Tail Glow set. What can that Manaphy exactly switch in on without taking damage that reduces it's sweeping potential? I don't see that many opportunities for that Manaphy to come in.

It's a great late game cleaner; compare with Garchomp.
 
Colonel M said:
I see what you mean Dragontamer. However, as annoying as theorymon can get, you can still get screwed over if you mispredict and land on a Surf instead of an expected Tail Glow. Technically however he is the only true counter next to Calm Mind Blissey. Even so, especially on Wi-Fi, it's hard to have a good Raikou and usually it can be rare at times (I understand he is still used, but currently he is BL). Those two (CM Bliss and Raikou) were the only "legitamite" counters that Lyfsaho even posted. Actually I will admit that Ludicolo would be the third... if he has not proceeded to use Tail Glow during the switch-in. Energy Ball with no EV investment does 45.51% - 53.65% to 60 HP Manaphy. Wow, I really underestimated Ludicolo. I am sorry dancing Mexican duck. ;_;
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Sorry, hadn't read the this when I posted the last one, you appear a bit more humble and reasonable here.

Ludicolo is indeed the third; 45.41% - 53.65% is never a 2KO on him as he always runs leftovers. And that's the worst case scenario.

And its not down to these 3. Tentacruel with Mirror Coat is a perfectly viable counter, as is Mantine with Mirror Coat. As is an the Mixed Sweeping Abomasnow set (with hp and sp.def ev's).

And its worth a mention that T-wave Blissey can counter the Tail Glow / Ice Beam / Surf / Energy Ball set as well - taking a hit on the switchin, T-waving, and slowly killing it with Seismic Toss and Softboiled. Takes a bit, but it works.
 
Lyfsaho said:
And its worth a mention that T-wave Blissey can counter the Tail Glow / Ice Beam / Surf / Energy Ball set as well - taking a hit on the switchin, T-waving, and slowly killing it with Seismic Toss and Softboiled. Takes a bit, but it works.
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That is worth a mention, thanks for pointing that out. Manaphy could run sub over one of it's attacking moves however that costs it when comes to covering it's other counters.

Mirror Coat isn't that great of a counter when Manaphy just keeps boosting, is it?
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It depends which has more pp. I'm not sure which one does.
 
Don't be too hasty. It's true that it's hard to get a good Manaphy however, so that is agreeable.

Also, don't underestimate how Manaphy can switch in. He can switch in on many Bulky Waters (...except maybe Starmie if he has T-Bolt) and is one of the best Mixape counters in the game (it's light as hell man. As light as the three lake spirits even). I also will not count Mirror Coat from Tentacruel and Mantine as a "counter" as that's a rarity to be seen even. It's okay to assume that you proved me wrong about Raikou, but don't attempt to use a move that a Pokemon rarely uses in the first place (example: Tentacruel with Mirror Coat obviously).
 
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