I guess I dont see the big bash on Hossa here though since without him for many parts of the regular season when the rest of Detroits players were apparently absent he saved their asses many times. Also I dont think pressure has much to do with anything at the NHL level. I mean, there is pressure playing college and if you couldnt handle pressure you wouldnt make it in the league. Those that cant handle it you find in the AHL, or worse not playing. I am a pretty firm believer that playing a game in front of 14000+ fans is pressure enough for every player so I doubt that was an issue with Hossa. The Therrien argument seems more likely, that or he just didnt enjoy playing with Crosby or Malkin or whoever.
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The Everything NHL Thread
- Thread starter Jackal
- Start date
I had all these responses for Jump's post but I think Teifu did a good job summarizing and hitting the important facts. I'm still going to add some ramblings though..
I don't in any way, shape, or form feel "bad" for Hossa. It "sucks" for him what ended up happening but I won't lose sleep over it. Going to Detroit was never a sure bet to win another cup. It was easily his best option in that regard since the Red Wings were returning every single player from the 2008 cup team besides Dallas Drake and Hasek, both of which had minor roles in the grand scheme of things. It was essentially the exact same team so there was an "advantage" to going there since it's a proven winning formula. But as I said, it wasn't a lock no matter how much he or I wanted it to be. If Hossa really wanted to win, barring any severe injury, we would have seen something more from him. He was a ghost in the finals and did nothing to help his cause in terms of production. For that, I feel no remorse.
As an unrestricted free agent he's "free" to play for whoever he wants. He could have gone to Russia to play in the KHL if that's what he was looking to do. He has no ties to Pittsburgh once July 1, 2008 hits so why should he be required to go back to them just because it was the last place he played.. for only ~40 games? Especially when he had no say in picking that team to begin with.. he was traded there and never formally signed with them on his own accord. Just because he helped the team in the playoffs doesn't necessarily mean that's where he was happy playing. I'm pretty sure the former coach had something to do with it, as Teifu mentioned. Hossa is a pretty classy guy in that he would never openly complain about something like that to the media so there's just no way to know what he really thought of the Penguins and what his reasonings were. It was his choice to make and he wasn't a "traitor" for making it. In fact, if he had left Pittsburgh to go back to Atlanta we wouldn't be having this discussion at all but because he happened to go to Detroit it's suddenly "a big deal."
As an aside, Detroit stole another free agent from Pittsburgh for this most recent season in backup Ty Conklin. Notice how Penguins fans don't seem to give two shits about him, though, despite the fact that Conklin was a) on the roster for a longer period of time than Hossa b) played an integral part in keeping Pittsburgh in the hunt for playoff positioning while Fleury was injured because Sabourin couldn't cut it. Conklin was 17–6–5 as a starter from December to early March and was a league leader in save percentage during that span. You could argue that his excellent play kept Fleury on his toes because he definitely had better numbers last season and postseason when compared to this year's. A very similar scenario, but it's Hossa who is the "traitor" and not Conklin. Just some fun facts to add to this conversation..
I don't in any way, shape, or form feel "bad" for Hossa. It "sucks" for him what ended up happening but I won't lose sleep over it. Going to Detroit was never a sure bet to win another cup. It was easily his best option in that regard since the Red Wings were returning every single player from the 2008 cup team besides Dallas Drake and Hasek, both of which had minor roles in the grand scheme of things. It was essentially the exact same team so there was an "advantage" to going there since it's a proven winning formula. But as I said, it wasn't a lock no matter how much he or I wanted it to be. If Hossa really wanted to win, barring any severe injury, we would have seen something more from him. He was a ghost in the finals and did nothing to help his cause in terms of production. For that, I feel no remorse.
As an unrestricted free agent he's "free" to play for whoever he wants. He could have gone to Russia to play in the KHL if that's what he was looking to do. He has no ties to Pittsburgh once July 1, 2008 hits so why should he be required to go back to them just because it was the last place he played.. for only ~40 games? Especially when he had no say in picking that team to begin with.. he was traded there and never formally signed with them on his own accord. Just because he helped the team in the playoffs doesn't necessarily mean that's where he was happy playing. I'm pretty sure the former coach had something to do with it, as Teifu mentioned. Hossa is a pretty classy guy in that he would never openly complain about something like that to the media so there's just no way to know what he really thought of the Penguins and what his reasonings were. It was his choice to make and he wasn't a "traitor" for making it. In fact, if he had left Pittsburgh to go back to Atlanta we wouldn't be having this discussion at all but because he happened to go to Detroit it's suddenly "a big deal."
As an aside, Detroit stole another free agent from Pittsburgh for this most recent season in backup Ty Conklin. Notice how Penguins fans don't seem to give two shits about him, though, despite the fact that Conklin was a) on the roster for a longer period of time than Hossa b) played an integral part in keeping Pittsburgh in the hunt for playoff positioning while Fleury was injured because Sabourin couldn't cut it. Conklin was 17–6–5 as a starter from December to early March and was a league leader in save percentage during that span. You could argue that his excellent play kept Fleury on his toes because he definitely had better numbers last season and postseason when compared to this year's. A very similar scenario, but it's Hossa who is the "traitor" and not Conklin. Just some fun facts to add to this conversation..
But Conklin was orginally a free agent whereas Hossa was traded for Colby Armstrong, Erik Christensen, Angelo Esposito, and a 1st Rounder. Reason enough for Pitt fans to go ape shit on Hossa.
Yeah, good point, that does make a huge difference. Unfortunately, that is the risk you run when trading for a guy whose contract is about to expire! Hossa didn't make the terms, the GM did. Amazing how much they sent for him, too. I guess it all worked out in the end for Pittsburgh, though, so they can't complain too much.
I read your entire post Jumpman, and I do not give a shit if you try to say something like that and then brush it to the side. If you did not want it addressed, then you should obviously not have stated it as a compelling issue, which your denial of it being the most compelling issue certainly implied (as the second most important?) that it was.
you are free to address whatever you want ck, but it is and always will be the most annoying thing ever in a "debate" when someone picks out less than 5% of a post (where the whole post is about the same issue) and takes it out of context. i'm not going to quote myself again because it is incredibly simple: selfish is selfish no matter whether or not you think selfish is pejorative. the point is whether you should feel bad for him for being selfish. i posed the original question so you can't even accuse me of going off-topic, lol: "can someone with a brain actually tell me why anybody but his family members and maybe his teammates should feel bad for hossa?"
if you seriously think my entire argument hinges on my parenthetical, hypothetical, end-of-post afterthought regarding whether i would call him a "(BAN ME PLEASE)" amongst my friends, you're a lost cause and not worth my time. i could simply call you a (BAN ME PLEASE) for allegedly reading my entire post but not addressing anything else, funny how arguing on the internet works isnt it!
i didnt know some of this and pretty much agree with you. if i had thought he was a "traitor" all along i would have been wrong. but we both agree that there's no reason to feel bad for hossa about what happened for pretty much the same reasons (wasn't a "lock", didn't show up in playoffs). the only reason it's "a big deal" is because he went to the only team that beat him last year...when you consider (and respect) the fact that he didn't leave for money, it's only logical that a move to another team would only have pittsburgh fans annoyed if we actually felt he was a huge integral part of our playoff run last year, which is true to some extent but doesn't really factor into "traitor" if he goes to a team besides your wings, but he went to the only team that beat us so yeah.
but if he didn't like playing for therrien i wouldn't expect him to want to stay, and it's hard to argue that most of our players did since he got fired midway through the season and rookie incredicoach comes out of nowhere and goes what 17-4-3 then 16-8 in the playoffs with the same guys that in february were 10th in the East.
if you seriously think my entire argument hinges on my parenthetical, hypothetical, end-of-post afterthought regarding whether i would call him a "(BAN ME PLEASE)" amongst my friends, you're a lost cause and not worth my time. i could simply call you a (BAN ME PLEASE) for allegedly reading my entire post but not addressing anything else, funny how arguing on the internet works isnt it!
i didnt know some of this and pretty much agree with you. if i had thought he was a "traitor" all along i would have been wrong. but we both agree that there's no reason to feel bad for hossa about what happened for pretty much the same reasons (wasn't a "lock", didn't show up in playoffs). the only reason it's "a big deal" is because he went to the only team that beat him last year...when you consider (and respect) the fact that he didn't leave for money, it's only logical that a move to another team would only have pittsburgh fans annoyed if we actually felt he was a huge integral part of our playoff run last year, which is true to some extent but doesn't really factor into "traitor" if he goes to a team besides your wings, but he went to the only team that beat us so yeah.
but if he didn't like playing for therrien i wouldn't expect him to want to stay, and it's hard to argue that most of our players did since he got fired midway through the season and rookie incredicoach comes out of nowhere and goes what 17-4-3 then 16-8 in the playoffs with the same guys that in february were 10th in the East.
I was picking out that part because the rest had already been thoroughly addressed by others, so I am not sure why you would be annoyed by it at all. Of course my view is that no one should feel bad for him. Humans often overreach and fail. I think that he should be respected rather than disrespected for what he did though, and that is why your casual dropping of "(BAN ME PLEASE)" irked me. People being ambitious (when it is not really stupid, like trying to jump from 20 feet and see if you can get away unscathed for instance) is something that is a rather glorious part of being human to me.
Anybody gonna watch the awards tomorrow <_< >_> I'm probably going to, nothing much to do lol
how am i or is anyone supposed to know why someone picks out 5% of a post though, especially when the rest of it is the actual argument, and especially when i say the question is not about the "5% of the post" that you decided to take issue with? dont worry about what i may hypothetically say with my friends. lol. "if you seriously think my entire argument hinges on my parenthetical, hypothetical, end-of-post afterthought regarding whether i would call him a "(BAN ME PLEASE)" amongst my friends, you're a lost cause and not worth my time."
I don't remember you saying that <_< Explain!
Holy overreaction Jumpman! I never mentioned the reason why because it was not important in any way at all; I did not think it needed to be stated since the rest of what I was saying was reasonable. I keep posting because you keep urging me to react by getting all pissy about it, so I posted more of my reasoning each time. I am pretty sure that when someone goes and insults a person as a (BAN ME PLEASE), then I have perfectly good cause to question that, especially with intelligible analysis.
speaking of this thread, now that it is in a sports forum, should we have separate threads for different NHL related topics? this is currently the only thread i read in this forum and it doesn't really make it any different than it was when it was in congregation
I don't think so, outside of the Jumpman/Kirby wars, this thread is usually dead (unless I say something <_<).
While we should move the stupid petty arguing to Firebot or something, I don't think it's really necessary at the moment since there's so little NHL info going around right now. We should probably start a new thread next season since this one is rather old, and we could branch fantasy hockey or something, but it's not like there's exactly a flurry of activity here right now...
i didnt call anyone a (BAN ME PLEASE) though, i dont know why you'd comment on a hypothetical. i still dont think you read the context properly, the key words are "whether" and "would" and i don't know why i have to point that out to you or anyone but whatever. no one else had a problem with it, not even our resident detroit fans, probably because they realize i wasnt insulting anyone. if i wanted to call hossa a (BAN ME PLEASE) i would call him a (BAN ME PLEASE) straight up and not backpedal about it, i have no reason to backpedal because he's the big loser in this and i'm the winner.
anyway, what was the biggest surprise that came from yesterday's awards? i guess i can't say im surprised that ovey won the mvp and pens bias would somewhat cloud my judgment, but i thought i heard something like "the points leader 'always' wins the mvp", then again that was on a pittsburgh radio station that the now-famous mike lang calls pens games on
There were only 2 real surprises. The first one, which was a mild surprise, was Claude Julien winning the Jack Adams (best coach). I would've given Andy Murray some serious thought (I mean the Blues had like the best second-half record, and made it to the playoffs for the first time in a million years). The second was actually a huge surprise (for me) when Zdeno Chara won the Norris trophy (Best defencemen) beating out Mike Green. I thought for sure with Green's goal scoring streak and his massive amount of points he'd be in for sure, but I guess you can't spell defence with an "off".
Can anyone besides Mike Green even claim to potentially deserve this award this year?
The main thing that surprised me about the voting was the following in reference to the Hart "Ovechkin received 115 first-place votes, Malkin earned 12 and Datsyuk had four."
I'd have been annoyed if he hadn't won it, but by that huge a margin? Really? He was far and away the best choice, but man....
I'd have liked to see Green get the Vezina over Chara, since I agreed with Thomas getting the Vezina and think that probably made said Chara's season look a little stronger than it was. Green played a pretty phenomenal defensive season himself in spite of definitely being an "offensive defenseman", and did so with a greatly inferior goaltending tandem and with some really shoddy defense partners, which Chara isn't exactly lacking in right now with some smaller name studs like Widemann helping him out.
The other trophy I was pretty confused about was the Lady Byng, since while Datsyuk had a pretty pedestrian PIM total at 22, it is because is smarter than everyone else, not because he is a particularly gentlemanly player. He led the Wings in hits in the playoffs last year and tends to get a pretty healthy number in important games in general. He's not going to run you like countryman and MVP Ovehckin, nor will he... well, still run you like teammate Kronwall, but he gets his hits in and he's never afraid to mix it up... this is four he's gotten now and I think it's a sign that he's doing a real good job of tricking the average voter, because he's sure not what I think of in the category of "talented bitch" associated with the Byng.
EDIT: Oh NHL 10 news that many of you probably know already but I'll post anyway. Those of you who didn't get 09 really need to jump on the NHL 10 team with us :D
We need to get strike through on our vbulletin so I could have struck out "Build a Stanley Cup Champion" and replaced it with "Ken Holland Mode"
I'd have been annoyed if he hadn't won it, but by that huge a margin? Really? He was far and away the best choice, but man....
I'd have liked to see Green get the Vezina over Chara, since I agreed with Thomas getting the Vezina and think that probably made said Chara's season look a little stronger than it was. Green played a pretty phenomenal defensive season himself in spite of definitely being an "offensive defenseman", and did so with a greatly inferior goaltending tandem and with some really shoddy defense partners, which Chara isn't exactly lacking in right now with some smaller name studs like Widemann helping him out.
The other trophy I was pretty confused about was the Lady Byng, since while Datsyuk had a pretty pedestrian PIM total at 22, it is because is smarter than everyone else, not because he is a particularly gentlemanly player. He led the Wings in hits in the playoffs last year and tends to get a pretty healthy number in important games in general. He's not going to run you like countryman and MVP Ovehckin, nor will he... well, still run you like teammate Kronwall, but he gets his hits in and he's never afraid to mix it up... this is four he's gotten now and I think it's a sign that he's doing a real good job of tricking the average voter, because he's sure not what I think of in the category of "talented bitch" associated with the Byng.
EDIT: Oh NHL 10 news that many of you probably know already but I'll post anyway. Those of you who didn't get 09 really need to jump on the NHL 10 team with us :D
gamestop said:
We need to get strike through on our vbulletin so I could have struck out "Build a Stanley Cup Champion" and replaced it with "Ken Holland Mode"