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The Everything NHL Thread
- Thread starter Jackal
- Start date
I'm not even going to justify J-man's salary themed ridiculousness with a response
What I do want to comment on is the Niemi thing, though. With Turco as the most viable second option I wonder which Turco they'd get. The version that helped carry the Stars to the conference finals three years ago would be an absolutely massive upgrade over Niemi, but the version that has shown up since could sink them. A change of scene will be good for Turco wherever he ends up, I think. His puck-moving ability would be a good fit in Chicago though, lots of people who know what to do with a breakout pass.
The difference is only gonna be like 700k though, which is probably going to end up functionally irrelevant even with as close as the Hawks are to the cap(though that difference does represent a fourth liner, I guess). Potentially being better now vs. a potential long-term inclusion on the team.
Guess track record says Turco? I'd do that if I was the Hawks anyway I think, Crawford is supposed to be the one that is the future, isn't he...
Also funny related notes: Hawks are claiming they lost money this season in spite of the cup win(which I suspect is just accounting juxtaposition if it is even half-true) as an excuse to raise ticket prices by something absurd like 40%, going from one of the cheapest average prices in the NHL to one of the most expensive. I mention this because it sure is funny considering that that they'll be burying Huet's 5m+ this year and paying their #4D more than most #1s, don't you think?
What I do want to comment on is the Niemi thing, though. With Turco as the most viable second option I wonder which Turco they'd get. The version that helped carry the Stars to the conference finals three years ago would be an absolutely massive upgrade over Niemi, but the version that has shown up since could sink them. A change of scene will be good for Turco wherever he ends up, I think. His puck-moving ability would be a good fit in Chicago though, lots of people who know what to do with a breakout pass.
The difference is only gonna be like 700k though, which is probably going to end up functionally irrelevant even with as close as the Hawks are to the cap(though that difference does represent a fourth liner, I guess). Potentially being better now vs. a potential long-term inclusion on the team.
Guess track record says Turco? I'd do that if I was the Hawks anyway I think, Crawford is supposed to be the one that is the future, isn't he...
Also funny related notes: Hawks are claiming they lost money this season in spite of the cup win(which I suspect is just accounting juxtaposition if it is even half-true) as an excuse to raise ticket prices by something absurd like 40%, going from one of the cheapest average prices in the NHL to one of the most expensive. I mention this because it sure is funny considering that that they'll be burying Huet's 5m+ this year and paying their #4D more than most #1s, don't you think?
for 2.75 mil, I'd think the Hawks will sign Niemi. I was honestly expecting way more.
The reason is dumb, but you'd expect they'd increase tickets costs anyways (I doubt any team who has won the cup would keep their ticket prices the same, even if their team is pretty dismantled next season). But 40%? Is that even close to how much Montreal or Toronto tickets cost? If not, then it's still not that bad =]
Also somehow Setoguchi managed to sign for 1.8 mill, I guess he did bad enough last year to warrant it though.
How about instead of bashing my ideas and calling them ridiculous, just don't respond or explain where i went wrong with some constructive criticism. That was really harsh and i'm not happy.
it goes against every reason to use a salary cap in the first place. It's just a terrible idea
The salary cap is intended to provide parity to a league split amongst two markets: hockey regions and non-hockey regions. What does region have to do with anything? Well, a team like Nashville spends to essentially the cap floor every season not because they're terrible but because they don't generate enough revenue due to lack of widespread interest. Don't get me wrong, the Preds have some passionate fans but I bet Joe Random on the street couldn't name a single player on the team. Hell, I have issues naming Preds and I'm a hockey fan. At least in a hockey market, you're more likely to run into someone who could name a few of the stars of their local team. But I digress..
Anyway, the point is this: not all teams have the same amount of revenue which, in turn, effects the spending budget. Yes, I'm aware there's some sort of NHL revenue sharing system in place, but my vague understanding of it means that small market teams still aren't on the same level playing field. That said, let's look at your proposal:
25 players to a team as you said. Let's say the max salary a player can earn is 7 million. Max term is honestly irrelevant here so we'll just work under the assumption of a year term for all players to make it easy. A team like Toronto has a strong hockey market. They have money. What's stopping them from spending the maximum amount then, in this case $175 million, on their roster? Get the best FA players each season, make some trades, and just sign everyone at $7 million. According to Forbes, back in 2007 the Maple Leafs were worth about $413 million. I'm sure they could manage paying everyone the max and still profit because the team would be winning for a change and players would come for the spotlight, money, and exposure. Meanwhile, this same Forbes report has Nashville last on the list (that was a convenient coincidence for my argument) at $143 million in value. Nashville's whole franchise isn't even worth enough to sign all players to max money contracts.
This is nowhere near fair yet would indeed happen under your proposed salary system. The Nashvilles of the league would be at an even greater competitive disadvantage than they already are. An "out of market" hockey team, as they are so affectionately called sometimes, would once again draw the short straw. What's the draw to play in a small market when a big market team will give you exposure, a shot a winning and the max deal? It already happens now but would just exponentially increase league wide under these rules. In short:
The current salary cap is not perfect and does not provide ideal parity. However, it does keep all the teams viably competitive. Nashville may not have had the same payroll as Chicago this past season, but they actually looked the most formidable against the Hawks in the playoffs. In a way, that's some form of parity.
Oh, and I'm sure more people would respond in an intelligent manner if you refrained from calling it "salary c(r)ap" incessantly.
let's be honest for a minute. Toronto won't win a cup no matter how grossly unfair the cap is
Nice random hate crime.
Honestly though I do somewhat like how Toronto is rebuilding. I'd prefer if they went the safer route of saving draft picks and picking up good, young talent like the Oilers are doing, but Brian Burke isn't doing a terrible job. He has a solid defensive core (Phaneuf, Kaberle, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Schenn, with 2 more below average defenseman), Guigere is a solid goalie while Gustavsson with a year in the NHL under his belt who will only get better. All they really need is some reliable scoring and young replacements to whoever else they may trade (Kaberle...).
Not a cup winning team in the next 5 years, but getting there.
Not a cup winning team in the next 5 years, but getting there.
whoa hold on now I didn't hate all canadians just the ones that are bad at hockey
that worked really well for them this year when the stanley cup champs got 4 draft picks before they got 1
Nice to see your top centre is Grabovski. Also nice to see that you just lose Seguin and lost your top pick in 2011 also. Guigere is past his prime, and Gustavsson has got heart problems. I wouldn't put my future into a goalie like that.
If you guys refrain from giving away draft picks, and continue to tank for the next 5 years then MAYBE you may actually enter the playoffs.
I hate how he's rebuilding this team. Brilliant, Burke has Phaneuf, Kessel, etc. What did Kessel cost? Basically, two players of his skill level in a few years. Look for Boston to win the Stanley Cup a few years down the road. Brian Burke has created a gem of a team, just not the team he was supposed to revitalize.
Rebuilding with Giguere? Didn't they had some talented youthfull goalies that they traded away?
But let's be honest, your not rebuilding with a goalie of his age, hope Gustavsson will manage for Toronto. But Giguere won't perform a 3rd miracle (earlier miracles include the '07 stanley cup and posing with Patrick Roy as an 11 year old)
But let's be honest, your not rebuilding with a goalie of his age, hope Gustavsson will manage for Toronto. But Giguere won't perform a 3rd miracle (earlier miracles include the '07 stanley cup and posing with Patrick Roy as an 11 year old)
Burke actually did an extremely good job after the season ended. He signed Rynnas (who is a finnish version of Gustavsson) and Scrivens (cornell goalie who was highly sought after), which gives them incredible goalie depth. He signed Marcel Mueller who was a force in the olympics for the germans, and of course got Colby Armstrong and Kris Versteeg. He also made quite a few steals in the draft, despite not getting a pick until the mid 2nd round. I honestly don't care about the 2011 pick if the draft class continues to be as poor as previously stated, and certainly the Bruins won't be getting the cup anytime soon with their crap fest of a cap.
Also why is Bobby Ryan still not signed? =[
Also why is Bobby Ryan still not signed? =[
@Carl Thank you for explaining why my idea, you think, is bad instead of saying "you have a dumb idea". i have a capitolist mindset, and therefore i dislike the cap. I see each team as a business, and i see the cap as a means of keeping bad businesses barely running when they should be moved or put under new ownership. Sure you can say "just look at what capitolism does, you get a yankee-esk team." Sure, like the Yankees that got beat by the Marlins in 03? The same yankees that blew a 3 game lead to the Sox in 04? The same Yankees that were favored to beat the tigers in 06 and could only muster 1 win in the series? You can buy the best, but it's never insurance that you'll always win. Even with a cap in MLB, "there" will never be parity. The Red Wings have already proved the best will be the best no matter what financial strain you put on them. The cap couldn't save The Panthers. the only exception to this is when the best are torn apart by the rules. I'm not talking Chicago, though. I'm talking The Red Wings of 08-09. Sure, the wings are still good, but thanks to the raises we had to give under the rules, we were forced to give up three great talents (in the case of Hudler, we lost him because the KHL offered him more cash). i look at this and how are cap is smaller than the other as well as how most of our contracts are reasonable and wonder how long till we end up like chicago playing fair? That's why i like a player cap and a pay cap. If the pay is set at something like no more than 5-10 mill total in a contract and suppose 23 is the max players you can have active on a team, then a loaded team like Toronto has to trade talent for prospects and clear room on the team for said free agent, cause a big player, say Kovulchuck isn't gonna wanna play in the minors because his team is full.
okay this post is incredibly difficult to respond to because of the terrible formatting but I'll try my best
also it's capitalist not capitolist god FUCKING dammit but anyways
cool, but that's not how it works.
What you fail to realize is that in your example, the Yankees are making the playoffs consistently every year while most teams struggle to make them once a decade. Especially in baseball where only 8 teams make the playoffs instead of 12-16 in most other sports.
"There" (?) will never be parity in any sport unless an incredibly strict salary cap is put into place. The point is that the salary cap gives some parity where there wouldn't be any without it.
what
of course you aren't, even though they are the far better example.
Most teams have to do this, your team is no exception.
"My team is about to be dismantled by a rule that's been in place forever and we were well aware of. That's why I want that rule gone."
sound about right?
It was already explained in great detail why this idea is complete shit, so I won't go into it again.
also it's capitalist not capitolist god FUCKING dammit but anyways
cool, but that's not how it works.
What you fail to realize is that in your example, the Yankees are making the playoffs consistently every year while most teams struggle to make them once a decade. Especially in baseball where only 8 teams make the playoffs instead of 12-16 in most other sports.
"There" (?) will never be parity in any sport unless an incredibly strict salary cap is put into place. The point is that the salary cap gives some parity where there wouldn't be any without it.
what
of course you aren't, even though they are the far better example.
Most teams have to do this, your team is no exception.
"My team is about to be dismantled by a rule that's been in place forever and we were well aware of. That's why I want that rule gone."
sound about right?
It was already explained in great detail why this idea is complete shit, so I won't go into it again.
I don't recall any gifted goaltender, but I don't solely follow the Leafs so it's possible. But Giguere is just a 2-3 year investment for Gustavsson, and he's a capable goalie as well. As far as I recall the Leafs didn't give up anything major (got rid of Jason Blake's contract).
The Kessel trade was brutal, but he hasn't been terrible since then. Got rid of some dead weight and got some capable players in return, and as someone said he did get some good off-season signings. Unfortunately most people will likely judge his time as a GM by the Kessel trade. He's trying to rebuild based off of trades and signings rather than through drafting, and it's really risky.
Sorry, i get confused with that, cause i'm pretty sure that the root word is capitol... oh well
Then why do teams like the Coyotes and Panthers still exist?
I don't see what this does to my argument, but it still stands. The Yankees aren't winning the World Series every year, and always seem to be losing to the underdogs, which is my point that Even though the yankees can easily get a hold of players, that never guarantees them the championship.
"There" is something i liked to do, because in another thread back a while, someone grilled me for using the wrong "their", saying i mispelled when i just misused. Anyways... Parity? Washington in the Southeast division isn't parity. Boston just loves sitting up in the North east right now. The only thing closest to parity is the Atlantic, where you got Philly, New Jersey, and Pittsburgh Duking it out with the occasional Rangers team coming into the fray, but that's because they are all high powered teams with talent. Don't get me started on the west...
My Point is, salary cap or not good teams will thrive because they know how to be good. Bad teams will never be good even with a slight disadvantage in financial restrain on the good teams, unless the good teams are torn apart because they have to give raises (reasonable) but it goes over the cap (unreasonable).
They are a bad example, because Chicago overpaid their players knowing that it would cost them in the very near future. Detroit for the most part as far as i've read, reasonably pays most of their players, but still suffers under the cap because they reasonably give raises under the rules to players who earned them.
No team should have to give up talent because the cap says they should when they give raises to reasonable contracted players. Not even Chicago, who should have just suffered overpaying based on capitalism.
My team is about to get dismantled because it's giving out raises to reasonably payed (with several exceptions) under the fair rules, but a rule implemented four years ago is to blame.
What? It would cause Yankee Style teams where Hockey can thrive, and Teams that shouldn't exist in the south that should be moved?
lol
Anyway, Turcs to Chicago. I really like the signing for the pocket change they're paying for him(1.3), frankly, and if they bury Huet and call up Crawford they actually have a decent bit of change to finish their roster now. I am of the opinion this is an upgrade in the short term, think it'll make them a lot better next year.
Of course, how they'll look three years from now is probably a different story, but I suppose that is for their prospects to decide...
As an aside if the Hawks are more competent than it looked like they were going to be for a while there, at least this adds a second Hawk I like to make things more palatable. I appreciate Turco taking so little(maybe just what he's worth after the last two years...) to play for a franchise with a reasonable shot, nice to see him playing for the right reasons. Though obviously there wasn't much of a goalie market this year, eh, Nabokov?
Anyway, Turcs to Chicago. I really like the signing for the pocket change they're paying for him(1.3), frankly, and if they bury Huet and call up Crawford they actually have a decent bit of change to finish their roster now. I am of the opinion this is an upgrade in the short term, think it'll make them a lot better next year.
Of course, how they'll look three years from now is probably a different story, but I suppose that is for their prospects to decide...
As an aside if the Hawks are more competent than it looked like they were going to be for a while there, at least this adds a second Hawk I like to make things more palatable. I appreciate Turco taking so little(maybe just what he's worth after the last two years...) to play for a franchise with a reasonable shot, nice to see him playing for the right reasons. Though obviously there wasn't much of a goalie market this year, eh, Nabokov?
I really don't know how I feel about the Turco signing. I know it's really their best move but damn did I want Niemi back. At least the extra cap space will probably afford us a couple guys not taking league minimum.
So where is Niemi headed now? Montreal seems like a possibility considering Price hasn't committed yet and, who knows, it might cost them less to sign Niemi instead. (Edit: Nevermind, Montreal has such a shitty cap scenario for this season lol) I would find it pretty amusing if San Jose swooped in because then the Hjalmarsson thing + releasing Nabokov looks like one huge master plan. They've got about 3.75 in cap space and need to add a couple forwards, though, so I think it would be the same situation the Hawks decided they want no part of. I've seen Washington thrown into the candidate pile but I just don't see the Caps adding a goalie.. at least not until they see which Varlamov shows up and how well Neuvirth lives up to the hype. Oilers maybe? It'll be interesting to see how it pans out now.
Caps don't need a goalie, they need better defense. Varlamov is arguably better than Niemi anyways. SJ has about 4.6 mil in cap room if they get rid of one of their two current goalies (trade, minors, etc.), so they'd have enough room to sign 2-3 prospects to contracts after taking Niemi.
Montreal could get him if they can't sign Price, and Niemi is better than Price anyways. I don't think their cap scenario is all that bad since they have 5.7 mil left in space with only a couple forwards, a defenseman and a goalie left to sign. You'd figure they would pay about 3-3.5 for Niemi and have 2+ mil for 3 contracts, which isn't too bad.
Edmonton is probably looking like the best option right now with habbybulin on his way out and more than enough cap space to fill out their roster. I doubt that Niemi would want to go to Edmonton though after winning the cup, even with Hall signed and playing. Who knows though. There's always the SM-liiga LMAO.
What gets me the most is that the Hawks paid 3.5 for Hjalmarsson but walked for 2.75 on Niemi. Both are overpriced imo but the Hjalmarsson contract more so. Ah well, if Niemi busts then Bowman will look like a genius and I'm sure Turco still has some years left in the tank as a great goalie.
Montreal could get him if they can't sign Price, and Niemi is better than Price anyways. I don't think their cap scenario is all that bad since they have 5.7 mil left in space with only a couple forwards, a defenseman and a goalie left to sign. You'd figure they would pay about 3-3.5 for Niemi and have 2+ mil for 3 contracts, which isn't too bad.
Edmonton is probably looking like the best option right now with habbybulin on his way out and more than enough cap space to fill out their roster. I doubt that Niemi would want to go to Edmonton though after winning the cup, even with Hall signed and playing. Who knows though. There's always the SM-liiga LMAO.
What gets me the most is that the Hawks paid 3.5 for Hjalmarsson but walked for 2.75 on Niemi. Both are overpriced imo but the Hjalmarsson contract more so. Ah well, if Niemi busts then Bowman will look like a genius and I'm sure Turco still has some years left in the tank as a great goalie.