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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
- Status
Stall is pretty good. Recently I made a stall team of my own and honestly it's been working well. (First ever stall team)
@ChouToshio
Scarf Jirachi is a great revenge killer. It's also a nice scarfer for stall, it speed ties with +1 mence (I honestly don't get it why 80 HP is any of use on the set). I use Tyranitar on my stall team because I like the residual damage, but Jirachi is still great. Prolly one of the best scarfers for stall.
Also isn't Tar a common mence teammate? This means that common more than base 100 speeds die to Pursuit (scarfers). Hopefully people won't ban tar because it brings support to mence >.>
Oh, and good scarfers higher than 100? Gengar, Azelf and Starmie are all pursuit bait. Tyranitar + Pursuit says hai.
Also and honestly Tar / Tran / Rachi makes good revenge killers. Scizor might work too but watch out for waters.
@ChouToshio
Scarf Jirachi is a great revenge killer. It's also a nice scarfer for stall, it speed ties with +1 mence (I honestly don't get it why 80 HP is any of use on the set). I use Tyranitar on my stall team because I like the residual damage, but Jirachi is still great. Prolly one of the best scarfers for stall.
Also isn't Tar a common mence teammate? This means that common more than base 100 speeds die to Pursuit (scarfers). Hopefully people won't ban tar because it brings support to mence >.>
Oh, and good scarfers higher than 100? Gengar, Azelf and Starmie are all pursuit bait. Tyranitar + Pursuit says hai.
Also and honestly Tar / Tran / Rachi makes good revenge killers. Scizor might work too but watch out for waters.
Here's something to consider. If salamence is put on the banned list. It will start a new era of banning non-legendary pokemon. think about it, wobbuffet I can understand, maybe even garchomp (due to it's evasion tactics and deffense stats and breaking the famous 328 speed class), I feel this action will make shoddy battle a safe battle zone from tough pokemon. but if not considered correctly it could backfire. salamence is a nasty phisical and special sweeper. however, dragonite is kinda like a deffensive form of mence (similar attack stats,lower speed, but with a better move set) so he will probaly be the next big threat.
It's an endless cycle. People will ban salamence, then they'll ban Infernape and then they'll ban Dragonite. Dragonite is also a little less effective but it's still useable (Movesyndrome) . I'm sure they'll ban Heracross soon enough too.
They just recently banned latias because with specs she was hard to deal with, I guess that's why I'm infering that dragonite will be next if this goes through with mence. though you may say what does it deal with mence, well think about it, out of all the arguments I've heard here, it's about how mence can knock out a lot of teams easily and he's so-called hard to counter. like I said dragonite, 403 atk, 328 sp.atk. 4 speed levels lower(328-284) than mence, but he has ice attacks and newly extreme speed. if mence goes, then the only other 600 base dragon to turn to will be dragonite.
Except the slippery slope IS in effect here. This is the third dragon type we've banned due to being offensively strong.
@pokemonwargeneral,
remember that movepool is no issue for Salamence. With Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake why would you need an Ice move? Also Salamence has 10 higher base SpA than Dragonite. Lets try to avoid comparing the two, the speed difference is actually a huge part of why Dragonite and Salamence cannot be put together as a pair to be treated equally.
remember that movepool is no issue for Salamence. With Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake why would you need an Ice move? Also Salamence has 10 higher base SpA than Dragonite. Lets try to avoid comparing the two, the speed difference is actually a huge part of why Dragonite and Salamence cannot be put together as a pair to be treated equally.
@shizzle
I know that salamence is faster with more special attack(350 in fact) and probably better ability.in all probably better than dragonite, but what you must realize shizzle is back up plan if mence gets banned, thats the point I'm making, these are the last strong dragon pokemon to use.
I know that salamence is faster with more special attack(350 in fact) and probably better ability.in all probably better than dragonite, but what you must realize shizzle is back up plan if mence gets banned, thats the point I'm making, these are the last strong dragon pokemon to use.
slippery slope Slippery Slope SLIPPERY SLOPE SLIPPERY SLOPE
Its not a valid argument. Its a flaw in the argument. "If we ban Salamence we have to ban Altaria too because it is Dragon/Flying and has a blue body." Does that make sense? (Its a rhetorical question, but I will save you the trouble of having to actually think and tell you it doesn't) Dragonite and Salamence are not really comparable. Dragonite is a good bit slower (20 Base speed is huge), has less physical bulk and a slight case of movepool syndrome, when compared to Salamence. It won't be even brought up for suspect most likely.
I guess I'll discuss my movepool syndrome mention.
Here is a list of common moves that Salamence carries (I'm going to exclude hydro pump because thats only the specs set, which is terrible):
Dragon Dance, Outrage, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Roost (I guess, do people even use bad BulkyMence?)
As you can see, it really has a few options it almost always carries, but they still make it quite a force.
Now lets look at Dragonite:
Dragon Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Earthquake, Roost, Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Aqua Tail, Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Thunderpunch
These are all common moves I have seen on Dragonite, although Aqua Tail is less common. As you can see, it has quite a large movepool to pick from, which makes it harder for him to sweep outright. If you go with ExtremeSpeed on a DD set, you have so sacrifice Earthquake or a Fire-type move, but you are able to hurt, and potentially kill Ice Shard users. So it has to pick from either: being able to not be KO'd by Ice Shard, or being able to sweep outright and have to worry about Ice Shard.
So now that we have that out of the way, can we try not to go on this bad argument again?
Its not a valid argument. Its a flaw in the argument. "If we ban Salamence we have to ban Altaria too because it is Dragon/Flying and has a blue body." Does that make sense? (Its a rhetorical question, but I will save you the trouble of having to actually think and tell you it doesn't) Dragonite and Salamence are not really comparable. Dragonite is a good bit slower (20 Base speed is huge), has less physical bulk and a slight case of movepool syndrome, when compared to Salamence. It won't be even brought up for suspect most likely.
I guess I'll discuss my movepool syndrome mention.
Here is a list of common moves that Salamence carries (I'm going to exclude hydro pump because thats only the specs set, which is terrible):
Dragon Dance, Outrage, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Roost (I guess, do people even use bad BulkyMence?)
As you can see, it really has a few options it almost always carries, but they still make it quite a force.
Now lets look at Dragonite:
Dragon Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Dragon Claw, Outrage, Earthquake, Roost, Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Aqua Tail, Thunderbolt, Draco Meteor, Thunderpunch
These are all common moves I have seen on Dragonite, although Aqua Tail is less common. As you can see, it has quite a large movepool to pick from, which makes it harder for him to sweep outright. If you go with ExtremeSpeed on a DD set, you have so sacrifice Earthquake or a Fire-type move, but you are able to hurt, and potentially kill Ice Shard users. So it has to pick from either: being able to not be KO'd by Ice Shard, or being able to sweep outright and have to worry about Ice Shard.
So now that we have that out of the way, can we try not to go on this bad argument again?
No its not. Its a flaw in an argument, therefore it is never in effect. Also, maybe the dragons have been banned because gamefreak likes to buff them up a lot so they become more potent threats???????????????????????????
Could we please stfu with the slippery slope arguments?
NEWSFLASH
You're not the only one who's aware of the dangers of liberal banning! The people who vote on these tiers take this very seriously. So please stop pretending you have a better handle on the metagame than everyone else does!
Actually I should just sig this because seriously.
NEWSFLASH
You're not the only one who's aware of the dangers of liberal banning! The people who vote on these tiers take this very seriously. So please stop pretending you have a better handle on the metagame than everyone else does!
Actually I should just sig this because seriously.
@alan
ok alan. who do you think will be the next BIG sweeper with over 100 base on both attack stats and 100 base speed if the overated salamence goes? I know it can't be infernape, azel possibly? or maybe even floatzel in which in my opinion is an alternate water infernape. the point is that if salamence is moved to uber then there will be no more decent phisical/special sweepers to use in the current meta game, thus changing the flow of things dramaticly
ok alan. who do you think will be the next BIG sweeper with over 100 base on both attack stats and 100 base speed if the overated salamence goes? I know it can't be infernape, azel possibly? or maybe even floatzel in which in my opinion is an alternate water infernape. the point is that if salamence is moved to uber then there will be no more decent phisical/special sweepers to use in the current meta game, thus changing the flow of things dramaticly
If this argument continues I honestly won't be surprised to see this:
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5175/uberpie.png
(BIG image, click it plz)
Also Floatzel isn't an alternative water infernape. I perfer DD Gatr ro Floaztel. Sharpedo also does well but has crap defenses. Gyarados outclasses all of them anyway.
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5175/uberpie.png
(BIG image, click it plz)
Also Floatzel isn't an alternative water infernape. I perfer DD Gatr ro Floaztel. Sharpedo also does well but has crap defenses. Gyarados outclasses all of them anyway.
I have to agree that having a powerful mixsweeper at mence's level in the metagame is a welcome presence in my book.
There's nothing fun or interesting about a battle between two perfect defensive cores that just keep switching "perfect counters" back and for the easy prediction. Switches should be PUNISHED. When you choose to switch, you are choosing to take a turn to not attack. Such turns should be punishable! There should be a significant price to not attacking, and one shouldn't need a spike user + Rotom to do it . . .
Mixmence, whether he is on your team or not, forces people to make teams that keep sacrifices in mind-- ie. it's presence stops people from trying to make teams of simply 6 pokemon that all rely on each other just to "counter everything." With mixmence around, you know you can't counter everything, you will lose pokemon, and you've got to build a team with that in mind-- a team that can fight while taking losses and set up for objectives.
Battles should be INTENSE, with the real threat of kill or be killed-- it's a BATTLE!!
Pussy-footing around with teams of 6 that wall each other on both sides and spend the whole battle switching, spinning and recovering is really lame. Throw in a tentacruel or vaporeon in on both sides and now there is no wall breaker that can cut the crap.
There's nothing fun or interesting about a battle between two perfect defensive cores that just keep switching "perfect counters" back and for the easy prediction. Switches should be PUNISHED. When you choose to switch, you are choosing to take a turn to not attack. Such turns should be punishable! There should be a significant price to not attacking, and one shouldn't need a spike user + Rotom to do it . . .
Mixmence, whether he is on your team or not, forces people to make teams that keep sacrifices in mind-- ie. it's presence stops people from trying to make teams of simply 6 pokemon that all rely on each other just to "counter everything." With mixmence around, you know you can't counter everything, you will lose pokemon, and you've got to build a team with that in mind-- a team that can fight while taking losses and set up for objectives.
Battles should be INTENSE, with the real threat of kill or be killed-- it's a BATTLE!!
Pussy-footing around with teams of 6 that wall each other on both sides and spend the whole battle switching, spinning and recovering is really lame. Throw in a tentacruel or vaporeon in on both sides and now there is no wall breaker that can cut the crap.
My god I JUST posted to tell people not to use the slippery slope fallacy...
Also there are plenty of good sweepers in the Suspect metagame. Lucario, Gyarados, Dragonite, Infernape, Azelf, Gengar... the list goes on. All of these have counters or very reliable checks. I really don't get why people think that offense isn't viable in Suspect. It definitely is. In fact, I find it easier to run offense in Suspect. (this post was more towards war general dude than the dude with the avatar)
Also there are plenty of good sweepers in the Suspect metagame. Lucario, Gyarados, Dragonite, Infernape, Azelf, Gengar... the list goes on. All of these have counters or very reliable checks. I really don't get why people think that offense isn't viable in Suspect. It definitely is. In fact, I find it easier to run offense in Suspect. (this post was more towards war general dude than the dude with the avatar)
There are definitely many physical and special sweepers that are still viable. Are you trying to say that Salamence is the only sweeper we have? We have a huge amount of sweepers in the current metagame, saying that one Salamence is gone there will be no sweepers is stupid. "who do you think will be the next BIG sweeper with over 100 base on both attack stats and 100 base speed if the overated salamence goes?" You're trying to change the conditions so that Salamence one of the very few Pokemon (only Infernape and Azelf meet these conditions I think) that reaches those conditions, and the other pokemon that meet the conditions you just dismissed. Why can't Infernape or Azelf be sweepers?
@BloodyRoutin (mostly): Stop using the slippery slope argument. You're completely overdoing it, and it's just stupid.
@BloodyRoutin
well floatzel with focus sash can do some damage. with 339 attack&361 speed. with ice punch,aqua jet,waterfall/aqua tail(optional), and crunch he can be tough. I've used jolly 252 atk,252 speed floatzel with sash and he took out threats like infernape,chomp,mence, and even lati's. it's mainly because of his 115 base speed stat which out classes some big battlers
well floatzel with focus sash can do some damage. with 339 attack&361 speed. with ice punch,aqua jet,waterfall/aqua tail(optional), and crunch he can be tough. I've used jolly 252 atk,252 speed floatzel with sash and he took out threats like infernape,chomp,mence, and even lati's. it's mainly because of his 115 base speed stat which out classes some big battlers
I wasn't talking about sweepers-- sweepers don't force the metagame to speed up, if anything they slow it down as pokemon who require set up (and thus give opponent's opportunities to switch freely if they have a good counter).
POWERFUL WALLBREAKERS are what speed the meta. Pokemon that will PUNISH anything for trying to switch. When one manages to skillfully maneuver into an advantageous match up, there should be means to capitalize on it. With setup sweepers, it's really an unsure thing-- you either win everything, or you end up with nothing. Wallbreakers cause attrition and force people to deal with the fact that pokemon on both sides will be going down.
To me, that's something very special. Even though I don't run mixmence alot myself anymore (just wasn't winning matches once everyone started being prepared for it), it's presence on other people's teams is an extremely welcome presence in the meta to me.
POWERFUL WALLBREAKERS are what speed the meta. Pokemon that will PUNISH anything for trying to switch. When one manages to skillfully maneuver into an advantageous match up, there should be means to capitalize on it. With setup sweepers, it's really an unsure thing-- you either win everything, or you end up with nothing. Wallbreakers cause attrition and force people to deal with the fact that pokemon on both sides will be going down.
To me, that's something very special. Even though I don't run mixmence alot myself anymore (just wasn't winning matches once everyone started being prepared for it), it's presence on other people's teams is an extremely welcome presence in the meta to me.
@chenn
like i said chenn, I'm not talking about sweepers like gengar, I'm talking about sweepers with both attack stats high enough to alternate between attacks and raise there stats also.
like i said chenn, I'm not talking about sweepers like gengar, I'm talking about sweepers with both attack stats high enough to alternate between attacks and raise there stats also.
UMMM HOW THE HELL DOES POKEMON THAT REQUIRE SETUP SLOWS DOWN THE METAGAME?
You sound like you just came from ingame. Man swords dance sucks, lets make him learn hyper beam!
Also I don't get your whole idea about switching.
You sound like you just came from ingame. Man swords dance sucks, lets make him learn hyper beam!
Also I don't get your whole idea about switching.
Exactly, and I'm saying that your argument is tailored to be in your favor. You're trying to limit the pokemon that are encompassed by your argument to a select few. You make the category so narrow that in the end it becomes only Salamence.
@CHENN
i'm not sure you're understanding what i'm trying to say dude. this isn't about anything in my favor, this council thing is about salamence and if he's broken or not. and if you listen to all the reasons people are giving on this they come to one point. salamence is a sweeper with high attack stats( both phisical and special) and has a stat raising move which makes him hard to fight.
i'm not sure you're understanding what i'm trying to say dude. this isn't about anything in my favor, this council thing is about salamence and if he's broken or not. and if you listen to all the reasons people are giving on this they come to one point. salamence is a sweeper with high attack stats( both phisical and special) and has a stat raising move which makes him hard to fight.
@ChouToshio
There are people who prefer stall, others prefer a more speedy metagame. Who's to say one is inherently better, or more enjoyable, than the other?
There are people who prefer stall, others prefer a more speedy metagame. Who's to say one is inherently better, or more enjoyable, than the other?
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