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The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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Pro OU-
Sandstorm and Rocks neuter it
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I would agree this is probably one of the best arguments. Effectively, it's a "Salamence dies too easily to be broken" argument.
 
Not really at all actually, whoever keeps their Dragon Dance Salamence in on a Gyarados like is kind of silly, god knows why the other dude switched, Stone Edge is almost staple on a Gyarados [didn't watch whole video, just assuming], and the video you showed required you to lose a healthy scizor, while he comes out on top, the other person was lucky to have another priority move. Not many teams carry more than one if any priority moves, saying that its weak because if it is not really justifiable, especially since Scizor was lost in the process.
 
Shizzle said:
Not really at all actually, whoever keeps their Dragon Dance Salamence in on a Gyarados like is kind of silly, god knows why the other dude switched, Stone Edge is almost staple on a Gyarados [didn't watch whole video, just assuming], and the video you showed required you to lose a healthy scizor, while he comes out on top, the other person was lucky to have another priority move. Not many teams carry more than one if any priority moves, saying that its weak because if it is not really justifiable, especially since Scizor was lost in the process.
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Even with awful playing from the opponent Mence did almost nothing. He lost Scizor? Whats your fucking point? 1 for 1, do you know how many different situtaions with different pokemon can result in something like that? A +6 Plusle could result in the loss of a "healthy" Scizor. And everything you said makes Salamence Uber how? (Not intending to point fingers here or preemptively declare what "side" you're on)

On the contrary, this video illustrates just how quick Mence can be worn down, regardless of skill from the opponent. If He left Gyara in and Stone Edged, Salamence would have done even less. Gyara was faster atm and an un-boosted Outrage would not have been enough to OHKO Gyara.
 
It was bad play, something which is irrelevant. Now here is a question for you.

Scizor was sacrificed for Salamence, right? Do you know how easy that makes for other pokemon to sweep? Any idea how easily just about anything can just sweep teams if someone must opt to sacrifice their Scizor, there revenge killer. I mean even if Scizor did kill Salamence, it would be even easier, because something like Agiligross or anything could just walk in and its practically game over. Choice itemed pokemon can only function well as revenge killers in this situation, which as I have said a million times, almost anything can revenge kill anything with a Choice Item, they are fairly irrelevant, although worth a mention.

CBScizor, CS Jirachi, CS Starmie and much more can revenge kill Salamence yes, but it paves the way for an easy set up by lots of pokemon. Which would then be a pro-uber argument under the support characteristic.
 
@broodjekebab,
anyone running Waterfall/EQ isn't thinking properly
Coverage for Waterfall/EQ
The following Pokemon take reduced damage from both Water and Ground attacks:

Pokemon Type Ability
Abomasnow Grass/Ice Snow Warning
Altaria Dragon/Flying Natural Cure
Bayleef Grass Overgrow
Bellossom Grass Chlorophyll
Breloom Grass/Fighting Effect Spore/Poison Heal
Cacnea Grass Sand Veil
Cacturne Grass/Dark Sand Veil
Carnivine Grass Levitate
Celebi Psychic/Grass Natural Cure
Cherrim Grass Flower Gift
Cherubi Grass Chlorophyll
Chikorita Grass Overgrow
Dragonite Dragon/Flying Inner Focus
Exeggcute Grass/Psychic Chlorophyll
Exeggutor Grass/Psychic Chlorophyll
Giratina (Origin) Ghost/Dragon Levitate
Grotle Grass Overgrow
Grovyle Grass Overgrow
Gyarados Water/Flying Intimidate
Hoppip Grass/Flying Chlorophyll/Leaf Guard
Jumpluff Grass/Flying Chlorophyll/Leaf Guard
Latias Dragon/Psychic Levitate
Latios Dragon/Psychic Levitate
Leafeon Grass Leaf Guard
Lombre Water/Grass Swift Swim/Rain Dish
Lotad Water/Grass Swift Swim/Rain Dish
Ludicolo Water/Grass Swift Swim/Rain Dish
Mantine Water/Flying Swift Swim/Water Absorb
Mantyke Water/Flying Swift Swim/Water Absorb
Meganium Grass Overgrow
Nuzleaf Grass/Dark Chlorophyll/Early Bird
Paras Bug/Grass Effect Spore/Dry Skin
Parasect Bug/Grass Effect Spore/Dry Skin
Pelipper Water/Flying Keen Eye
Rayquaza Dragon/Flying Air Lock
Salamence Dragon/Flying Intimidate
Sceptile Grass Overgrow
Seedot Grass Chlorophyll/Early Bird
Shaymin Grass Natural Cure
Shaymin (Sky) Grass/Flying Serene Grace
Shedinja Bug/Ghost Wonder Guard
Shiftry Grass/Dark Chlorophyll/Early Bird
Shroomish Grass Effect Spore/Poison Heal
Skiploom Grass/Flying Chlorophyll/Leaf Guard
Snover Grass/Ice Snow Warning
Sunflora Grass Chlorophyll/Solar Power
Sunkern Grass Chlorophyll/Solar Power
Surskit Bug/Water Swift Swim
Tangela Grass Chlorophyll/Leaf Guard
Tangrowth Grass Chlorophyll/Leaf Guard
Treecko Grass Overgrow
Tropius Grass/Flying Chlorophyll/Solar Power
Turtwig Grass Overgrow
Wingull Water/Flying Keen Eye
Wormadam (Plant)
Coverage for Waterfall/Stone Edge
The following Pokemon take reduced damage from both Water and Rock attacks:

Pokemon Type Ability
Breloom Grass/Fighting Effect Spore/Poison Heal
Croagunk Poison/Fighting Anticipation/Dry Skin
Dialga Steel/Dragon Pressure
Empoleon Water/Steel Torrent
Poliwrath Water/Fighting Water Absorb/Damp
Quagsire Water/Ground Damp/Water Absorb
Toxicroak Poison/Fighting Anticipation/Dry Skin
Wooper Water/Ground Damp/Water Absorb
Go figure. I know many are irrelevant, but as you can easily see those lists are pretty conclusive.

But yeah, that video shows very little. What if he did not carry Scizor? Game over? I think so
 
CBScizor, CS Jirachi, CS Starmie and much more can revenge kill Salamence yes, but it paves the way for an easy set up by lots of pokemon. Which would then be a pro-uber argument under the support characteristic.
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There's a difference between team synergy and the support characteristic, you know.
 
Why the hell are you using Chikorita as an example for resisting a Gyarados's EQ/Waterfall. Really? Let's shorten that list to OU / BL Pokemon, shall we?

Abomasnow, Celebi, Dragonite, Gyarados, Breloom, Salamence. To Breloom and Empoleon for Stone Edge / Waterfall.

Celebi hard counters Gyara anyway, while other Pokemon handle the others if Gyara opts to hit Electrics harder while not getting landed with Stone Edge's crap accuracy. So, no, it's not brainless to run Water/ Ground.
 
@Helix, yeah thanks because I really went through the entire list of pokemon...I used psypokes, besides, is Empoleon used more than Abomasnow, Celebi, Dragonite, Gyarados and Salamence? Don' say Breloom, he is in both zzz

I am fairly sure that hitting Salamence hard is far more important than Empoleon....
 
Then you run Ice Fang or Stone Edge over Taunt. Simple as that. DD on the switch, you're sitting +1 Speed, even Attack. Ice Fang, dead Salamence.

By the way, before trying to debase my points, do take the time to flesh out your own before posting a list with Sunkern and Skiploom on a "resists attacks from Gyarados" discussion. There are more Pokemon than Empoleon that Earthquake is beneficial to have over Stone Edge. EQ is 100% accuracy reliable. It won't miss under normal circumstances. So that Stone Edge you aimed at Salamence misses, and your Gyarados dies. Oopsies, you weren't better off with either one.
 
Ok, how about you go and make a list. I just punched in water/ground and water/rock into the attack type analyser, so stop talking about that, I even said most of them are irrelevant, so I have no fucking clue as to why you bring it up, twice, when I clearly said:
Go figure. I know many are irrelevant, but as you can easily see those lists are pretty conclusive.
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SO CAN YOU FUCKING READ THAT? Jesus christ, how about you actually read my post.

And also, you are joking about Ice Fang, right? 65 base power is a downright PATHETIC move, and Ice only gives nice damage to Dragons, SUCH AS SALAMENCE WHO TAKES SE FROM STONE EDGE! Celebi takes 130 from Ice Fang, and 120 from Stone Edge, you tell me whats the better choice. Waterfall has more than enough power as a STAB to take down Steels/Electrics and whatnot after a +1.

I would only dare use Earthquake in conjunction with Bounce/Waterfall/Earthquake/Dragon Dance, nothing resists the three attacks.

Also lets try to get on topic
 
Disregarding your incredible overreaction, Stone Edge has 100 base power and 80 accuracy. It does not have 120 base power. Ice Fang is the clear better choice against Celebi, with 30 more base points of power, 18.75% more accuracy, and a 10% chance each to Flinch and Freeze upon hitting.

An besides, the move choice isn't all about coverage. If your team needs a Gyarados that can deal with Metagross and Jirachi (Waterfall most certainly does not beat either of them after a Dragon Dance), or if you want to beat Starmie more than 80% of the time, then why not run Earthquake? It is important to remember that you are picking Gyarados' secondary form of attack; physical water is already a very powerful attacking type in OU.

The poor accuracy of Stone Edge is also a huge turn-off (as Jumpman says, Stone Edge is the worst move in the game). Ice Shard has some value simply because it is a more reliable option against Salamence and Dragonite, which can create huge holes in your team off of a single turn. And this thread is really about Salamence and Dragonite, after all!
 
I've been playing both the suspect and standard ladder for a couple of weeks now and I feel that I still haven't totally made my mind up on salamence's status. On paper the facts do indeed make Salamence look quite difficult to deal with, this is backed up by the feeling I get when my opponent manages to safely switch in salamence for the first time. I think to myself "what the hell can I safely switch into this thing"? and the answer is pretty much nothing can come in with 100% safely and hope to win. Though in saying that, I rarely find salamence sweeping my team while most of the time I can force out mixmence with smart switching. I think this comes down to the fact that on paper, the conditions are ideal for the given situation, making either the counter or salamence be in an almost unrealistic environment which doesn't take into account the situation and stage of the match the players are in.

The biggest factor I see being broken is the initial appearance of salamence where the moveset is unknown, therefore my first instinct would be to switch in something that I would not care losing, eg. death fodder or a poke that has an unfavorable match up with most of their team. This would scout its move set and hopefully force it to attack if it did DD. If I died in the process so be it, some may argue that this means mence has done its job and has killed something but to me, what it killed was useless to me anyway and so it is no big deal, and as we know there are many checks for salamence once we're able to switch in. So when I play, the fact I have to sometimes make stratigic sacrifices in order to beat it makes me feel its on a higer level than most other pokes in OU, but the fact that what it kills isn't usually game breaking and how once its moveset is exposed it does not really rampage through my team makes me think that its quite manageable.

A few things I've noticed when playing in the suspect metagame. I personally find this metagame much more enjoyable, the team building process is alot more unrestricted as I now no longer have to worry about packing a 100base scarfer or priority user to check DDmence. I think other people have found this as well as many pokemon have changed positions on the usage ladder. To be fair, if dragonite switches in safely and scares my current poke out I feel the same "what do I switch in now" kind of feeling, the only difference the base speed does is determine the pokemon it can force out, (disregarding revenge killing). Stall was rampant during the early stages but much less prominent now, I've been seeing a lot of balanced teams lately which seem to preform well under the new metagame. Scarf flygon is as annoying as ever and is one of the more popular scarfers now that jirachi has taken on a more tankish role. My MVP of all my teams has been breloom, which appreciates the lack of salamence (and also latias) and I have been testing out different scarfers now that the pressure of speed has been lifted. At the start I saw very few scizors, which may be attributed to the fact priority is less essential, but lately I have been seeing a few pop up as things start to settle. Heatran is a beast as always and is one of the more prominent pokes that I have to build my team around in regards too.

In all I'd have to say I do preffer the Suspect metagame compared to the Standard Metagame. I'm still undecided on my feelings towards salamence as even though he is quite manageable and has rarely swept through my team, he does have a distinct edge over anything else in OU in regards to it's speed power and moves + what you have to do in order to switch in something safely.
 
I didn't mean to offend you, I was only pointing out that you should probably take the time to actually revise a list if you're going to post it as a solid evidence to Water / Ground's apparently idiotic coverage. Especially when Earthquake is the much better choice against several Pokemon Gyarados cannot overcome with Waterfall and Stone Edge, such as, as Tay pointed out, Metagross and Jirachi.

I won't make any comment on Ice Fang's viability other than after an Intimidate, Ice Fang is much more likely to OHKO Salamence than Stone Edge.
 
Going back to discussing Mence, since we have veered slightly off topic:

Does the kill Mence is "guaranteed" to get always open a sweep for something else? The defending player can choose what to sac against one, which isn't necessarily too crippling if they send out death fodder or something useless taking the opponent's team into account. This depends on how early Mence comes in, which indicates that the team would be fairly healthy and would thus lose a Poke with good health, and if playing Stall the loss of one Pokemon can be crippling. Also, Mence may be able to come in again later and repeat, but residual damagee hinders this significantly. Is this above an acceptable level of power? No other Poke can force a kill against any team, which is something claimed by Pro-Uber and not refuted effectively by Pro-OU. Is this a bad thing? Why does this mean he is Uber? Weakness is not just from stats or typing but also from moves. Are the weaknesses of his dragon moves easy enough to exploit?

About the idea of counters: having them does not actually prevent a Pokemon from being overpowered, especially if it forces people to use them, they are overspecialised (something I mentioned a page or two back) and they don't kill the Pokemon they counter absolutely, or are repeatedly guaranteed to force them out. Counters mean nothing in today's game. So, the idea that Mence has no counters, making it Uber, are moot, especially since it relies on two sets to pass some potential candidates. But does the fact that its power comes from two sets keep it from being Uber?
 
Bilaterus said:
Going back to discussing Mence, since we have veered slightly off topic:

Does the kill Mence is "guaranteed" to get always open a sweep for something else? The defending player can choose what to sac against one, which isn't necessarily too crippling if they send out death fodder or something useless taking the opponent's team into account.
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With this you are getting at the crux of Salamence's problem as a wall breaker. It's been brought up before, but as a wall breaker (like any wall breaker) mixmence's job is to weaken the enemy defenses by focusing on making 1 kill.

But, looking at other 1-kill pokemon, Tyranitar or Magnezone who can zero in and trap their target, and can be built to specialize in taking down certain threats with even greater precision (ie. make ttar scarf or band, magnezone with HP ground or fire).

Infernape who does the speedy mix-wall breaker WITHOUT SR weak and can therefore try his luck at hitting something important multiple times much more easily.

Compared to them, whether Salamence can manage to take down something of real use to the enemy before it succumbs to SR/LO/Sand and revenge killing is much more uncertain.
 
The thing is, none of those pokemon can do what Salamence does. The Infernape comparison is ridiculous because Infernape doesn't have Mence's bulk, resistances or Intimidate.

Neither Tyranitar nor Magnezone have Mence's Speed, and when Choiced they're vulnerable to being set up on.
 
I actually haven't been in this thread in awhile, and an idea spurred into my head. I don't know if it was mentioned in these 65 pages, so I'll just make a quickpost about it.

How easily did the Smogon community pass Garchomp being Uber? I wasn't here at the time, and I'm pretty sure I joined competitive battling after the Garchomp fiasco, but if I recall correctly it was a close vote for Garchomp's enbanment. Now, look at Salamence. How much, if at all, is Salamence better than Garchomp? I know I am not supposed to be making OU-Uber comparisons, but I think it is a valid point to state that a vicious Dragon was just barely passed (correct me if wrong) into Ubers, when a Salamence who imo isn't that threatening is being tested.
 
Ice-eyes said:
The thing is, none of those pokemon can do what Salamence does. The Infernape comparison is ridiculous because Infernape doesn't have Mence's bulk, resistances or Intimidate.
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This is a point I do not like. At first I wanted to use an example, so I went browsing through the top 50ish Pokemon used on the standard ladder last month. Then I realized why I found this point unsettling - I don't normally switch my Salamence into attacks.

Salamence cannot really switch into any attack because of the Stealth Rock damage (assuming you don't prevent it or you don't spin it away). If Salamence comes in and loses 25% to Stealth Rock and then another 25% to an attack, it will then become a do or die situation because it has accumulated damage equal to that of switching in twice without Life Orb.

Unless you're switching into Earthquake or a non-attacking move (hopefully not a status move), you will be taking some form of damage. I can't think of an attacking move I would like to switch Salamence into (or a Pokemon I would like to switch Salamence into) because I might risk a crit / status / do-or-die situation. Intimidate is more of a force-a-switch ability than anything, but even then it won't always be helpful (late game if a Pokemon is useless why switch it out, for example).

I guess what I'm saying is that I find the bulk that Salamence has really irrelevant since switching in on an attack limits Salamence to probably one switch-in and forces it to go on the attack or die. It can't take advantage of the bulk and really looks for a free switch in on Earthquake or a switch in when another of your Pokemon has fainted. I can't see why it's bulk / ability should make a comparison to another wall breaker (Infernape) invalid.
 
Lol.. Infernape can be just as deadly as Salamence. Its wallbreaking capabilities are very good. Infernape also has 8 more points in Speed that it can use very effectively. Tearing holes in a team doesn't always require bulk. And with the neutrality to Stealth Rock, Infernape can switch in a little more often than Salamence.
 
shrang said:
I would agree this is probably one of the best arguments. Effectively, it's a "Salamence dies too easily to be broken" argument.
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Out of curiosity, would this argument be acceptable for Ho-oh? It has bigger stats than Salamence (orly), but it takes half damage from Stealth Rock!

I'm NOT questioning Ho-oh's tiering, I'm talking about this specific argument.
 
Ho-Oh's not really a wall breaker, more a shove Banded Sacred Fires / Brave Birds down the opponent's throat. I see Salamence and Ho-Oh a little more different, as Ubers is mostly just a hit stuff as hard as possible meta, isn't it? Ubers is extremely fast as a meta, where if you lose your crucial counter, you're screwed. Salamence WANTS to stay alive as long as possible, while Ho-Oh's content to Band Brave Bird and get obliderated anyway by recoil / Stealth Rock.

I dunno, that's just how I see Ho-Oh, haha. It's a valid argument that Ho-Oh's certainly less-used though. It doesn't reduce Ho-Oh's power, though.
 
Mario With Lasers said:
Out of curiosity, would this argument be acceptable for Ho-oh? It has bigger stats than Salamence (orly), but it takes half damage from Stealth Rock!

I'm NOT questioning Ho-oh's tiering, I'm talking about this specific argument.
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Ofcourse SR Damage would be a argument for ho-oh being not so uber, but as you mentioned there are plenty of other factors(such as stats) that define ho-oh as uber.

its not like one single point makes the pokemon uber its the comination of all points(stats/typing/movepool) that decides if a pokemon is uber or not.

PS i am not sure about this but i think moltres wasnt voted to ou/bl because of his sr weakness
 
BurningMan said:
Ofcourse SR Damage would be a argument for ho-oh being not so uber, but as you mentioned there are plenty of other factors(such as stats) that define ho-oh as uber.

its not like one single point makes the pokemon uber its the comination of all points(stats/typing/movepool) that decides if a pokemon is uber or not.

PS i am not sure about this but i think moltres wasnt voted to ou/bl because of his sr weakness
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It's called Rapid Spin. You can utilize Ho-oh in way's that would make it completely broken in standard.
It's typing/movepool/stat's are too good for standard if you get rid of stealth rock, and even if it's up.
 
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