OU The future of RBY OU in Smogon

[Peasounay]

Also, if your main issue is with Normals, Psychics, and sleep, Tradebacks just exacerbates those problems. The biggest winners are Amnesia + coverage Hypno, sleep Lax, coverage Zam, sleep Persian, Surf bull, and Amnesia Clef. It's a fun format but it doesn't really address your concerns.

That's not exactly true

RBY with tradebacks is actually the only RBY tier I've never played (I've won Stadium and No-Sleep RBY tournaments before and since I saw these formats being mentionned in the thread, I have to ask people to stay away from these forever), but on paper it actually does improve some of the issues that have been mentionned:

- Hypno gets interesting for sure, but keep in mind that unlike Slowbro, it gets bodied by normals while asleep (and even Zapdos). I guess non-rest sets could be a tough thing to face once Chansey is gone but then it's a lot more crippled by paralysis, and if you use something like Hypnosis + Amnesia you'll have coverage problems. I don't see Clefable being an issue at all since Hypno and Slowbro will do a better job at using Amnesia. Having set-uppers like Hypno will definitely make people use FishLax more than ReflectLax, which will decrease the usage of said Reflect Lax.
- Alakazam getting Thunderpunch improves its match-up against Starmie and thus will make it less likely to end up in the current psychic fishing scenario, getting the games more dynamic. Also, having the option of running Ice Punch means it will be difficult to use Seismic Toss, so players probably won't try to play out Zam dittos as much as they do now, which is currently quite a dumb one, so you're solving part of the lead game issues with this new Zam
- Giving Hypnosis to Persian is great because it will give you an extra reason to use it, and having more Persian usage means a Reflect Lax/Chans power decrease
- Giving Haze and Ice Punch to Gengar will give you more reasons to run it, increasing its usage and thus decreasing the Wrap users usage
- Giving Growth to Jolteon will give you more reasons to run it (it's still hard walled by Rhydon anyway) and having another good fast mon like jolt could put Wrap users under more control
- Surf Tauros is not gonna be a thing since it doesn't OHKO Rhydon and is a roll after Body Slam, so you'll stick to Blizzard especially for Egg, Zapdos, and the freeze chance. Also with all these new set-uppers and fast mons maybe we'll use Tauros for something else than opposite Tauros, woo-hoo
- Obviously LK Lax should be banned in a format like this, but Snorlax should be kept.

This is all just theory obviously, but on paper tradebacks seem interesting. I hadn't think about it but it's definitely worth trying (maybe create a ladder for it just like it was done for Latias in DPP), also the fact that we haven't been using tradebacks in RBY is probably purely out of the laziness our ancestors had about learning in new tier (and the longer you wait the harder it gets). It's way easier to just try playing with tradebacks rather than going for multiple complex bans or S rank bans to, and if it ends up not working we'll have a scientific file about it

This thread might be going somewhere and I'm looking forward to further input on this

 

[Hipmonlee]

2. The sleep game has become pure guesswork in either match up or early game lines or both. It was all nice and skillful when people were trading thunder waves turn 1 and then removing the sleep absorbers with predictions and explosions and whatever fancy things throughout the game, but nowadays people realized that's highly abusable, Sing Chansey lead or on a turn 1 switch-in absolutely dominates that playstyle, so bringing your TW lead isn't a safe option anymore. Even without Sing, some people have already been switching Chansey on TWaves turn 1 for a while now, and 'should I switchback to my Eggy to catch that' is a consideration you could make, but on turn 1 the information you have to make that call is incredibly limited. Bring Jynx to answer Sing Chansey or slower sleep leads? Sure, you can do that, but then (1) you're at a disadvantage against most traditional builds, and (2) you'll be forced to play 70/30s against lead Gengars and coinflips against other Jynxes. Suppose that a situation where the person with control of sleep is decided via skillful play happens, even then you're still faced with the nightmares of accuracy, super early wakes, super long sleeps, all kinds of things that don't consistently reward the more skilled player at all. It's trash.

I think you need to expand on this a bit. The variable length and inaccuracy of sleep is pretty annoying. But the rest of this I dont really understand.

It seems as though the crux of your argument is that turn 1 twave is not viable because of the threat of a Chansey switch and how that will mess up your sleep plans. But I dont think you've made the case that t1 twave is a necessary part of the metagame.

Like, yes your opponent may sleep you. Then you could switch in a sleeper and sleep them in return. Your opponent doesnt win straight off by getting the first sleep. Sing Chansey is brutal when you dont expect it. But its really not so bad when you do.

 

[Amaranth]

I think you need to expand on this a bit. The variable length and inaccuracy of sleep is pretty annoying. But the rest of this I dont really understand.

It seems as though the crux of your argument is that turn 1 twave is not viable because of the threat of a Chansey switch and how that will mess up your sleep plans. But I dont think you've made the case that t1 twave is a necessary part of the metagame.

Like, yes your opponent may sleep you. Then you could switch in a sleeper and sleep them in return. Your opponent doesnt win straight off by getting the first sleep. Sing Chansey is brutal when you dont expect it. But its really not so bad when you do.

It's very bad because if you're not going for the sleep first you are essentially giving up on all status until you do manage to get it. And this means your opponent can cash in on his sleep, put himself in positions that don't allow your sleeper to click the sleep move without getting statused and/or chunked, begin spreading paralysis and damage, meanwhile you're desperately struggling to make up the disadvantage and forced to make predictable plays to try and get your sleeper in. A player who is not good at pressuring this type of advantage might let the opponent get sleep back just as easily, but a player who is will easily steamroll the game, especially if your opponent is putting pressure on your sleeper and you miss the sleep move, that's just game over.

Additionally, I want to point out the situations where your only sleeper is facing your opponent's only sleeper in a mirror (Jynx vs Jynx, Chansey vs Chansey as demonstrated in FOMG vs Metal G2, often times Eggy vs Eggy as well). Players are forced to pick between a coinflip that is very likely to end the game on the spot whichever way it goes, or a guaranteed disadvantage by switching out. Granted this isn't frequent, but it is absolutely atrocious when it happens.

 

[Heroic Troller]

Tradebacks look really interesting now without LK Snorlax

Haze Gengar won't be a thing ever outside memes i guess, Ice Punch on the other hand is amazing
Amnesia Clefable won't go nowhere, bad Lax with Sing, yikes
Hypno does not look extremely good but might surprise.
Elemental Punches Zam is another big heat i'd watch closely
Hypnosis Persian is cool i guess, but i don't think we will ever get to see him, especially with that colossal buff on Gengar
Growth Jolt is also a big headscratcher, what do you drop? I suppose Pin Missile/Rest slot but then Egg walls (special boost are cool but can you fight Psychic's droprate?), and regardless the problem of wrap is left untouched, Zapdos is better at beating Vic, the thing is passing over Rhydon
Tauros gets Surf which i honestly might run, Blizz is not spectatular vs Egg Zap but there are those games where egg is a 30% and you can avoid risking a Beam catch

The only thing i don't like at preview is giving Tauros another tool, he's already Tauros, not like Surf is Recover or Self Destruct of course, but a free buff is a free buff

 

[Enigami]

Tauros also gets Quick Attack and Headbutt (5 more BP over Stomp), so that's another minor and probably irrelevant buff.

I'm pretty sure all the tradeback stuff has been discussed before, but there's a few low tier stuff of interest too:

Nidoking & Nidoqueen become more usable alternatives to GolDon as your Electric answer thanks to Lovely Kiss. Poison-typing becomes a benefit for once when dealing with Vic (making Razor Leaf neutral), and being faster than Victreebel/Cloyster with BlizzBolt coverage is a heck of an improvement over being OHKO'd as GolDon are, and the Psychic weakness isn't the end of the world when Zam & Mie can 2HKO GolDon anyway. Weaker EQ has always been a problem, but sleep can more than make up for that, especially now it lets them punish Starmie switch-ins or even 1v1 it now. Not sure which is better, Nidoqueen has a good chance to survive 2 rounds against Tauros (especially Surf over Blizzard Tauros) and Snorlax and sticks around a bit longer vs. Zapdos & IB Chansey, whereas Nidoking has more Earthquake power + slightly higher crit rate, outspeeds Dragonite, and has the option to run Amnesia over Lovely Kiss.

Electabuzz becomes the only Electric with Electric/Ice coverage, and even gets Rolling Kick for a flinching anti-Chansey move with a bit more accuracy and no recoil, and can still run Hyper Beam to cover Alakazam/Jynx or Submission for bigger damage on Chansey instead. Thunderbolt / Ice Punch / Rolling Kick or Hyper Beam / Thunder Wave looks pretty nice. Edit: forgot to include Meditate, it'd be really hard to drop a move for it though. The only move I see that you could MAYBE drop for it is Thunder Wave, as otherwise you're lacking STAB, coverage for Eggy/Grounds, or your physical attack.

Raichu gets Sing, so Surf isn't the only thing that makes it stand out anymore. Unlike Zap, Buzz and Jolt though, Raichu has bad 4MSS, and Sing does nothing to help that.

Aerodactyl gets Earthquake, so Gengar & GolDon aren't huge blocks to it, grounded Electrics don't have a fun time, and it can dish out reliable damage without recoil now.

Rapidash and Ninetales become slightly usable gimmick leads, thanks to threatening sleep while also tearing Jynx and Exeggutor to shreds. Rapidash also gets Low Kick if it wants to try to flinch hax through Chansey, or less likely, GolDon. Poor Arcanine just gets Fire Spin though while the other faster Fires get Hypnosis.

Porygon gets Barrier! Not really too relevant since it already had Reflect, but being able to boost Defense even higher and amplify burns/paralysis is still a small buff.

Poliwrath gets Lovely Kiss. The +15% accuracy won't help a whole lot, but that atleast means when it is brought into play it'll be more reliable.

Edit: Forgot Golduck gets Hypnosis, that'll make it more likely to set up, but unlike Poliwrath it lacks Fighting STAB for Chansey, and unlike Slowbro it doesn't have Psychic-typing, so it really needs to leverage speed + lack of Poliwrath's Psychic weakness to be worth using at all.

Machamp gets Meditate. Don't think it'll ever get to pull it off, but it has a boosting move now.

Dodrio gets Low Kick, but it is only doing 16.7-19.8% without crits, so it would need flinch hax to break through GolDon.

Confuse Ray Starmie, just to give everybody headaches. Luckily it can't afford to drop any moves as it is.

Mr. Mime gets Hypnosis + Elemental Punches, but it kinda is super overshadowed by Jynx as a fast sleeper, Hypno as a dual status platform, and Alakazam as a damage dealer. It has a niche now thanks to outspeeding some new threats while carrying dual status, but it's very hard to justify using.

Jynx gets Petal Dance, which would be... interesting tech against Starmie. Being locked into it for 3-4 moves is practically unusable though.

Seaking MIGHT get taken out to play now and then, since unlike Kingler it can double dance and actually eat a bolt from Zapdos and Jolteon and live to retaliate. Base 92 vs. 130 Attack is not great though.

Amnesia Tangela and Growth Vaporeon become explorable options, boosted Mega Drain recovery might be a thing. Growth Vaporeon is kind of a bad Slowbro, but it can technically run Growth + Acid Armor like an alternate Amnesia + Reflect Bro and become nigh unkillable without crits.

Raticate gets Counter, which could lead to Raticate taking less damage from a wary Snorlax or Tauros afraid of eating a big Counter, but likely won't help much.

Also, Mewtwo gets Ice Punch for better Ubers stalling.

I think that covers everything?

 

[Oglemi]

While I think the desire to see a more balanced rby is both admirable and a project worth pursuing, I also don't think there's much chance of saving rby for spl. I am a strong proponent of expanding spl to 14 slots and will continue to argue for that, but I don't see the current TDs changing their mind on that front, and with that comes the fact that rby is easily the most expendable slot on the roster. And I say that with no ill intent, it just simply is as the oldest meta with a lot of functional issues. I've argued for its inclusion for years, pushing the other TDs to accept a bo3 as a compromise to reinstate it as a slot after spl5. But I think when the time comes it'll be time to accept its fate and throw in the towel; rby will still have representation in Classic after all, and while I know it's not a team tournament, Classic is regarded as one of the most prestigious tourneys we have on here, which should say a lot to rby's credit.

I would also gladly take your finger when gsc gets axed from spl too. The old guard of the tier is getting old, which i think is becoming apparent as of this spl, and while lavos, bkc, and whoever else may be big fans of it while proving they are also some of the best players on this site, they alone don't make up a full competitive field.

 

[MetalGro$$]

It's very bad because if you're not going for the sleep first you are essentially giving up on all status until you do manage to get it. And this means your opponent can cash in on his sleep, put himself in positions that don't allow your sleeper to click the sleep move without getting statused and/or chunked, begin spreading paralysis and damage, meanwhile you're desperately struggling to make up the disadvantage and forced to make predictable plays to try and get your sleeper in. A player who is not good at pressuring this type of advantage might let the opponent get sleep back just as easily, but a player who is will easily steamroll the game, especially if your opponent is putting pressure on your sleeper and you miss the sleep move, that's just game over.

Additionally, I want to point out the situations where your only sleeper is facing your opponent's only sleeper in a mirror (Jynx vs Jynx, Chansey vs Chansey as demonstrated in FOMG vs Metal G2, often times Eggy vs Eggy as well). Players are forced to pick between a coinflip that is very likely to end the game on the spot whichever way it goes, or a guaranteed disadvantage by switching out. Granted this isn't frequent, but it is absolutely atrocious when it happens.

About the sleep stuff.
Your first paragraph sounds like someone playing a good game to me. This player got his sleep off and kept the pressure on the opponent so he couldn't sleep, what's the problem with that? He knows how to play too well? You can't come back because he's pressing his advantage?

Sleep is game changing, so you have to play it like it's game changing. Are you in a sleep mirror with your only sleep inducer? Then it's decision time. Try to go for the 50/50 and get a big advantage, or switch out and let something else take sleep (or get in a whole new situation where you both switch out because your opp has decided not to risk his sole sleeper as well) so you can come in later and get off your own sleep. Hell, this tier is not uncompetitive because you lose 50/50s. That's on YOU for risking the 50/50 to begin with! Let something else take sleep, come back in later and get off your own sleep and you're playing 5 vs 5 again.
FOMG risking his sole sweeper both games heavily annoyed me (I could've been Sing Chansey game 1 + the Sing Chansey war game 2) because I could've been up by a big margin by turn 2 or 3 both games. I did have a plan: I had 2 sleep inducers both game (Egg in the back game 2) so your statement isn't completely correct there either. If he slept my Chansey, it wasn't the end of the game at all. In the end, I even decided to let Snorlax take the sleep since I thought burning a turn early would be optimal.

@ MetalGross: "Not decided by match up"? May I introduce you to Zapdos vs Rhydon????? Hello? Or Zapdos vs Starmie for that matter? Or Victreebel vs Rhydon? Or Jynx vs slower sleep lead, or slower sleep lead vs Starmie/Zam leads? Or Gengar vs no eq lax? You have this view about RBY being some tier where only what happens on the field matters, and it's no wonder when you don't even bother looking for the teambuilder advantages, but there are TONS out there and they decide so many games. Your anecdote with Pearl and ABR even supports this point, RBY keeps evolving because there are match up advantages to be found by doing that, otherwise no one would bother trying new stuff. And just like you give up on finding match up advantages before even looking, you are now giving up on trying to save this tier you love oh-so-much before even trying, implying that RBY just doesn't belong in SPL and so on. Broaden your fucking horizons, RBY is not as set in stone as you think it is, and other forms of RBY are not as silly as you think they are. I wonder where that belief even comes from frankly, have you ever dedicated yourself to a non-OU tier of RBY?

Zapdos VS Rhydon: Let's assume both players have revealed their respective Zapdos and Rhydon. Zapdos comes in on something that gets threatened: 50/50 time! Does it stay in and attack, or does the player pull of the double switch to Tauros? If he does pull of the double, suddenly the Rhydon player's in trouble. You should always try to only reveal your Zapdos after Rhydon's dead / revealed to be not there anyway. Zap vs Rhydon has been won a thousand times and it'll be won a thousand times more. I'd call it 40-60 at best.

Zapdos vs Starmie: Starmie outspeeds, TWaves or Blizzards (38-45% damage) and lives a hit at full (tbolt does 75-88%) + you have 5 other mons still. Doesn't sound that bad.

Victreebel is aids because of uncompetitive wrap. Sure, it's beatable but it's still incredibly fucking dumb.

Gengar vs no EQ Lax: Snorlax can try to Rest Loop, you can throw Snorlax to the hypnosis, Gengar still gets heavily annoyed by Starmie/Alakazam/Egg and hard walled by Chansey. Sure it's a good matchup, but you give away quite a lot because Gengar isn't that great vs Starmie teams and doesnt help a lot with Tauros. Also, there's no way to know if Snorlax carries EQ or not. It's a good matchup, but it didnt stop FOMG from winning vs me with Ice Beam Lax earlier this week.

I already addressed sleep above.
Does this stuff help decide games? Yes, but it's pokemon. The mons and sets we bring help decide every single game we play, so I'm not sure what the point of talking about matchup is.

All of the matchup stuff is pretty much known now anyway. I don't need 11 teammates to help me decide what matchup I should fish for, it's taking a chance anyway. Just keep thinking I don't know or use all this stuff though, everyone on my team knows how hard I prep and theorymon in my channel to win every single week.

 

[Amaranth]

This player got his sleep off and kept the pressure on the opponent so he couldn't sleep, what's the problem with that?

The problem is that getting your sleep off in the early turns is often blind guesswork (either in the builder or in the first few turns) and not at all a skillful process

That's on YOU for risking the 50/50 to begin with! Let something else take sleep, come back in later and get off your own sleep and you're playing 5 vs 5 again.

My entire point is that this isn't a risk you can opt out of without getting massively punished, and 'letting something else take sleep' ends up in a large L if your opponent is at all competent. You saw how well your double sleep inducers worked out in that set, lol. Rewatch your games and see how much of a difference it makes to have Chansey paralyzed on your side and nothing paralyzed on his. Yes he got lucky, but that's the entire fucking point - the sleep game ends in "whoever is luckier wins" at a frequency that is far too high, and in that I include the pure guesswork that goes in picking your leads and early game lines.

Fundamentally running two sleepers means you're running unoptimal sets and mons to cover for the possibility of getting lucked, and I don't think it's healthy that people can choose to gamble with single sleepers and bring the game down to early game match ups and blind guesses. You don't "just sleep something back later" without losing a ton of pressure. Accepting to get slept first is a massive disadvantage.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

this is a pretty dumb thread

assuming rby is broken and needs to be fixed

assuming that "fixing" it will "save" its spot in official tournaments

assuming that banning 60% of OU fixes it

false premise after false premise after false premise to justify a personal crusade

 

[Yoshi]

I wouldn't call this thread dumb by any means. It's great to have discussion on a tier that is considered to be uncompetitive and skill-less by the general public eye, and what we can do to make the tier not that way. I can agree that RBY can't be saved by changing the tier, but that's a simple mistake of being misinformed by how the removal process of tiers works in team tournaments. Perhaps you can disagree with the idea of this thread but it's certainly unfair to call it a "personal crusade." The intention was not to sound deluded or ignorant, as I've talked to TIN about this. There are clearly several different opinions people have here with the discussion of tradebacks, Alakazam, and the big 4 (could be argued to be 5 now as Starmie usage has increased, but that's beside the point). It's not a good idea to hinder discussion, because while one might believe that what the OP is saying is completely wrong, it doesn't hurt to get the gears rolling. The premises of this thread shouldn't be to do what the OP says, but to hold intellectual discussion regarding the competitive future of the RBY tier, whether or not it gets removed from team tournaments. Don't discourage such discussion, as it never hurts to have!

In terms of what I think, I don't think it's a good idea to ban any Pokemon from RBY. However, this is merely based on the gut feeling that the meta would break somehow. I would support that idea in some capacity if there were extensive testing done, beyond the aforementioned tournament. Having top level RBY players compete against each other with different rulesets and banlists in place is surely the first step in figuring out what needs to be done, if anything needs to be done at all. For any less avid RBY players reading this thread, it would be nice to see them getting in on the action too! The RBY QC team alongside some other users have been hard at working updating and revamping several RBY OU analyses, so if you're ever unsure on something, you can ask one of us (list can be found here) or you can check out those analyses for any information. I'll definitely be looking out for that RBY tour, and I'm really hoping more users will be getting in on the testing. It's important to note that while RBY OU will eventually be removed from SPL, there are still plenty of competitive mediums that RBY is played on, such as RoAPL, Smogon Classic, and Pokemon Perfect (although I am unsure if our changes here will affect PP).

For tradebacks, I could definitely see those being fun, outside of the already clearly hated Lovely Kiss Snorlax combination. As I haven't really researched that area all that much, and am only going off of what the thread has listed, I don't see why we shouldn't include these things in our testing. As people have already mentioned, there are large changes to Pokemon (Lovely Kiss is obviously a massive thing), as well as smaller changes, like giving Poliwrath a better Sleep move. While some changes seem small and insignificant, all changes are notable, because in a meta as delicate as RBY, any slight change can shake up the whole meta, which is why extensive testing is important. The goal of these changes isn't to make RBY different from the same 5-6 Pokemon one would see every match, but rather to make the meta more skillful.

That's all I want to address right now, I apologize if this post appears to be something official or authoritative because I don't really have any authority over RBY, nor am I known to be an avid RBY player at a high level. However, I do have a lot of experience with the tier, have been working with the RBY QC team for the past couple of months, and do know quite a bit about the community to know what people want rather than what appears to be said on the surface (as is the case with this OP). The intention was never to demand X Y and Z to happen, but rather to spark meaningful discussion. Hopefully more can be stated by the council and the QC team, as I am really interested to know what they have to say as well!

 

[Amaranth]

this is a pretty dumb thread

assuming rby is broken and needs to be fixed

assuming that "fixing" it will "save" its spot in official tournaments

assuming that banning 60% of OU fixes it

false premise after false premise after false premise to justify a personal crusade

lol i'm glad to see my completely faulty personal crusade got 50+ likes, if that post has no valid points then i guess that means there's a lot of people who unconditionally love me and support me

do you really think that if this was a dumb idea based on false premises you'd have people like marcoasd and peasounay agreeing with me? and more importantly, i am yet to see a valid counterpoint to my points about the sleep game amongst other things, so my 'assumption' that rby needs fixing feels rather solid right now

I've changed my mind several times throughout this thread too and have abandoned the 'banning 60% of ou' idea for a while now, so I'm not sure where this personal crusade accusation even comes from, all that is happening in this thread is attempts at discussing whether or not RBY needs changes, I strongly think we need some, others strongly think they don't, we're having civil discussions for the most part, I really don't see your issue with this thread

 

[Deleted User 229847]

I've yet to see a valid argument for the preservation of wrap, a legit bugged and broken mechanic, completely dumb and RNG-based, removing almost completely player agency from both players until you hax a miss. Playing around it feels dumb and legit every other argument didn't answer directly the problem. It is pathetic that such a mechanic is allowed in a so-called competitive metagame.
The only pseudo-argument I've read during the years is that wrap mons give diversity in a mostly stale and small-numbered metagame.
I still think this argument is dumb because playing wrap does never reward a good player (only indirectly at best), but at least it's something.

 

[Lavos]

I would also gladly take your finger when gsc gets axed from spl too. The old guard of the tier is getting old, which i think is becoming apparent as of this spl, and while lavos, bkc, and whoever else may be big fans of it while proving they are also some of the best players on this site, they alone don't make up a full competitive field.

Half the GSC starters from this SPL had join dates of 2012 or later, so I don't really think the tier is dominated by an "old guard" - and if you do want to use that term, you'd have to point out Fear and Conflict, who both had very strong seasons. I can also say speaking from experience that GSC has never been played at such a high level as it's being played today, and I'm speaking both for the cream of the crop and your average Classic/RoA tournament participants. It's actually astounding how far the tier has come in the last 2-3 years from being considered a hard stall/boom offense dichotomy with esoteric mechanics and zero diversity, where if you know the first thing about it you can farm noobs all day, to its current state where I almost never feel like I'm completely outclassing my opponent and there's a daunting breadth of viable options available while still maintaining that characteristic "nothing ever feels too strong, I can play my way out of this" GSC feel. I've been shocked as well by the sheer number of new gen players who have flocked to GSC after the impressive displays of the past couple SPLs. Like I said, the average level of competition here is at its peak and I think it'll only continue to rise with time. I know a discussion about cutting GSC is still a few years down the road but I'll definitely be there fighting to keep it around when it happens, expanding SPL to 14 slots is an infinitely superior solution than letting this beautiful, unique tier be removed from Smogon's best tournament.

Ok, I guess I should talk about some RBY in the RBY thread.
Let's start by recognizing that the goal is not to keep RBY in SPL, the goal is to improve the health and competitiveness of the RBY OU tier so that it merits inclusion in SPL. Modern problems require modern solutions, so let's assume nothing is off the table. It seems that every "big name" player except Lusch (and hey, some people think the earth is flat, there will be outliers) believes that Wrap is uncompetitive and needs to go, so why not start there? I do think it's difficult to articulate exactly what makes Wrap's form of RNG reliance different from everything else in the tier, but if I had to sum it up I'd just say that it takes the game out of both players' hands in a way where the play to make is always a necessary and required one from both parties. If you're the Wrap user, you keep clicking the move and hope you don't miss, and if you're facing Wrap, you switch around and pray for a miss. That's noticeably different from the modicum of prediction that plays a role in almost every other interaction in competitive Pokemon. I scarcely think Wrap is "broken" because the odds of missing a couple in a row are somewhat high, not to mention you do have to perform significant setup before bringing it in, but on the GSC council we banned SleepTrap with pretty much the exact same reasoning (and on top of it, Smeargle was getting ridiculous). I'd like to see a thread soon on getting rid of Wrap for good, that's definitely a good start on improving this tier.

I do think Reflect is broken on Snorlax and Chansey, I completely understand that it brings a whole new dynamic to the game that was absent in B.C. (Before Crystal_), but not only is it incredibly boring both to watch and play, it also makes RBY even more reliant on RNG solutions than previously, often needing to crit fish to break a resting Lax, and let's not even think about the dreaded Reflect Chans mirror where whoever fp's more wins the game. Lax probably bothers me even more though, I just don't like how it's already so fat and tanky, and now it gets to safely heal itself too. Yes, a sleeping Lax is easy to take advantage of and brings some interesting sequences to the scene, but in the end it's a nuisance in a tier where it's already hard to kill anything without getting some form of luck in your favor. I recognize the concern with RBY becoming a slugfest if nothing can recover its HP, but you still have Star and Zam to think about, and it's not like recovery is being banned either, only passively nerfed. Chansey and Snorlax were incredible before Reflect and they'll still be staples of every team after it, and while this would shake up the meta quite a bit, things would settle quickly and, at least in my prediction, return to a healthier state.

Tradebacks have been mentioned a few times, and while it's a fun idea, it would require a massive undertaking with dozens of test tournaments, a new ladder, preferably some official tours incorporating it for a try, until we could even think about making such a fundamental change to RBY. I'm not against it but I also won't be the one spearheading that project, and good luck to anyone that tries. I think there's plenty of room to improve RBY within its current limitations, and if we're going to get anywhere, this is where we should start.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I wrote a big post about potential lines assuming you've lost the first sleep and why I think they aren't particularly broken, but I realised I was very much just fighting a straw man. So, I guess the only thing left is to put it back to you and say that I am not at all convinced that losing the first sleep is such a huge disadvantage. In particular it seems like most of the time when your opponent has won the first sleep, you can pretty much hard switch to your own sleeper immediatel, and there is not all that much counter play for your opponent to block your sleep from there. Particularly in cases like Jynx vs Sing Chansey. Could you talk about some of the lines you are thinking of where, having given up the first sleep you end up having to sacrifice/risk too much to get the sleep yourself?

And I definitely dont agree with a wrap ban. Everyone in this thread that I've seen has been talking about fast wrap, which is kinda very rarely used. I could accept an agility/wrap ban, but regular wrap is actually one of the times where you end up really having to predict heavily every turn. Trying to avoid the wrapper getting their advantageous switch.

Also the other meaningful tradeback that I havent seen mentioned yet is Amnesia Persian. Just for completeness..

 

[Amaranth]

I wrote a big post about potential lines assuming you've lost the first sleep and why I think they aren't particularly broken, but I realised I was very much just fighting a straw man. So, I guess the only thing left is to put it back to you and say that I am not at all convinced that losing the first sleep is such a huge disadvantage. In particular it seems like most of the time when your opponent has won the first sleep, you can pretty much hard switch to your own sleeper immediatel, and there is not all that much counter play for your opponent to block your sleep from there. Particularly in cases like Jynx vs Sing Chansey. Could you talk about some of the lines you are thinking of where, having given up the first sleep you end up having to sacrifice/risk too much to get the sleep yourself?

And I definitely dont agree with a wrap ban. Everyone in this thread that I've seen has been talking about fast wrap, which is kinda very rarely used. I could accept an agility/wrap ban, but regular wrap is actually one of the times where you end up really having to predict heavily every turn. Trying to avoid the wrapper getting their advantageous switch.

Also the other meaningful tradeback that I havent seen mentioned yet is Amnesia Persian. Just for completeness..

On Sleep:
Player 1 gets sleep first. Mindgame ensues: click twave/stunspore or switch to a twaver as Player 2 switches his asleep mon out, or send Tauros as Player 2 stays in. Tauros on sleeping mon is an obvious enough advantage that it doesn't need explaining, but the other might not be as clear so let 's continue down that scenario. Player 1 paralyzes the sleeper, which in itself is a really nice thing (hopefully I don't have to explain the obvious consequences of a paralyzed chansey/egg and how abusable they are), AND now the paralyzed sleeper has to hit his moves while paralyzed, which sure it can work out sometimes, but very often it'll be some extra chip on Eggy or some psydrops on Chansey that force her in awkward positions.
Obviously there's some mindgames involved in the process but all of them have two cases: either the player who slept first snowballs ahead a lot, or the player who got slept first avoids losing for one turn longer.
If you get slept first the odds are very much stacked against you.
Jynx situations are special, because Jynx is an absolute shit mon but she can very reliably be the first to put something to sleep. If anything the fact that Jynx is at all successful proves my point about how good getting sleep first is. She gets 2HKOd by Tauros/Snorlax, OHKOd by Rhydon, is completely worthless in 1v1s with Recoverers, doesn't even reliably answer the only mon she's supposed to reliably answer because Exeggutor can call her switch-in and Double Edge to death, and yet she sees play and success because good players can (sort of) guarantee getting sleep first and pressing the advantage from there, despite Jynx being very nearly deadweight from that point onwards, and really just sleep fodder at best in a majority of cases.


On Wrap, yes and no, OU is a meta where you can pretty much assume your wrapper will be faster than at least 2 mons on the enemy team (chansey lax), often a third (exeggutor), and it's pretty easy to set up a fourth/fifth with twave, even without Agility, so situations where a player is just wrapping down and praying aren't rare at all, even when you're not using the AgiliWrappers. It's not unreasonable to play around 70 base speed wrappers, but it's also not exactly natural. I'm probably with you in thinking only AgiliWrap is banworthy, but let's not act like common OU teams have many natural ways to deal with a Vic because very often they kinda don't

 

[Prinz]

wrap is strong but i don't think it's broken, as i said before it has counterplays (back zam, zap, starm, and even gengar), it has its drawbacks (your team becomes weaker vs tauros, especially if you are using vic + rhydon) + you basically are playing 5v6 if you miss vs chansey / egg as they para you (stun spore egg is underrated). I agree especially wrap + sleep powder can be really annoying on vic but before banning anything i'd give tradebacks a try (on ladder, some tournaments) because as peas said before, tradebacks in theory fixes a lot of problems of current rby, i don't think banning stuff in a tier where there are 15 available mons at best is the ideal solution

 

[Heroic Troller]

No one said wrap is broken, the point is that wrap is not any better than batonpass chain, or double team. It has counter plays, but so do all the other uncompetitive moves, being terribly uncompetitive and forcing any game into a dice fest (more than it already is, because wrap is 100% dice fest) is the reason it has to go for good.

Amazing post by Lavos, touched all the points perfectly

 

[marcoasd]

AgiliWrap is actually weaker simply because Dragonite contributes nothing other than wrapping (Thunder Wave over Hyper Beam is nothing better than a clunky fix), while other wrappers have better movesets.
Yeah, AgiliWrap is the essence of what's wrong with Wrap but at the same time if you look at the usage sheet you'll quickly figure out your priorities.

Hipmonlee, assuming nobody said this before clearly enough:
Rhydon teams don't stand a chance (bar well trained Tauros, paraslams, powder misses, TaurosBlizzFRZ, dodges, etc) against Victreebel as long as the player with Victreebel sleeps something early in the game - don't forget that Starmie is the sleep bait for that team (Chansey is the only thing that counters Water-types, Exeggutor is most likely the only sleeper on the team, you use Rhydon to stop Zapdos so you need it, then you have Snorlax and Tauros...)
Actually, I remember my best odds in those games were just trying to get an early wake with Starmie, rolling with the punches and trying to predict part of my opponent's switches to Tauros (not much you can do when they have spread some status so they can threaten with Snorlax).
Well, this dynamic would've been just as deadly before 2014, but at that time Victreebel was damn rare and that's why it never seriously risked a ban. You could keep Zapdos is check with Physlax so Rhydon was not as needed and Golem (who can at least trade at some point) was much more viable; also Starmie and Alakazam were great fillers while they're bad these days due to Reflect Lax (yeah, you can't ask players to use those two when they are bad against Snorlax -which they'll face basically EVERY GAME- because they are good against Victreebel).
Do you really need to use Starmie over Chansey on a Rhydon team? That team fails over time in this metagame. Should you be forced to keep Starmie away from any kind of status every single time you use Rhydon (even if they aren't using Victreebel, because you still don't know) and make moves that will cost you the game against other teams, just like in a mirror match where your opponent doesn't care about losing to Victreebel and gets away with it?

That being said, this kind of discussions always end up with a myriad of posts pro something or against something - something being 3 or 4 subjects -, resulting in a total mess.
Do we at least agree on something? Like trying the tier with Reflect banned for Chansey and Snorlax?

 

[Amaranth]

That being said, this kind of discussions always end up with a myriad of posts pro something or against something - something being 3 or 4 subjects -, resulting in a total mess.
Do we at least agree on something? Like trying the tier with Reflect banned for Chansey and Snorlax?

From what I've seen there's been three currents that have been picking up support:
1. Trying tradebacks
2. Trying bans on Reflect Chansey and Snorlax
3. Doing nothing

Not sure how we'd go about proceeding from here, maybe some type of voting to see which option is preferred?

(And real quick, on Victreebel destroying starmie big4 rhydon: if the metagame evolves to make that team unviable, just stop using that team? it's not like that structure disappearing from the metagame is a problem)

 

[ABR]

The only valid point of discussion is wrap. Anything regarding tradebacks, pokemon bans, reflect bans, etc. is just entirely unfounded and unnecessary.

Tradebacks don’t need to be allowed because it’s something unique to RBY but also because we’d need to ban lax after (lkiss). In terms of being close to cart I’d rather say we just have 2 legends banned than banning lax and maybe needing more bans, thus defacing the competitive identity of RBY OU.

All of the suggested pokemon bans are similarly problematic. They are far too drastic to test at this point in time and absolutely would morph the tier as we know it. This is regardless of the fact that no one mon is truly “broken” relative to the others, or rather devoid of reliable counterplay.

As for reflect, wow. I can’t believe the amount of people completely ignoring the drawbacks of using reflect lax/chans. In lax’s case, it needs to choose between booming instantly on threats like tauros zap (and chansey), eq coverage for rhydon gar and counter chans, and ice to actually threaten other normals like lax. It can’t do all of these at once. Resting lax is also incredibly prone to get crit and easy to abuse with stuff like egg. Chansey needs to drop twave, boltbeam coverage, or counter. Twave is a massive part of chansey actually punishing mons like tauros besides unreliable sing/freeze, self explanatory why it’s important there. Boltbeam is big for pressuring mie don, both very high in usage right now. Counter is simply the best at dissuading bslam spam from lax.

Regarding wrap itself, I understand the frustration with this move. It’s not really unreasonable to see it as one of uncompetitive/broken, but I still would like to urge people to really be convinced of how necessary a ban is before pushing for action.

For starters, wrap is the only move close to being broken of wrap/clamp/firespin etc. The others lack the PP and accuracy to be anywhere near reliable. For arguments of them being uncompetitive they can probably all be lumped together. As for wrap’s brokenness, we can probably limit discussion to victreebel as the main user.

Vic is most potent when the only faster Pokemon on the other team are leads and tauros, for example with rhydon 6th. In these matchups, the lead is often paralyzed and that leaves the methods of counterplay as dodging + breaking through para, PP stalling, or trying to para it with tauros. The dodge / breaking through para route is fairly unreliable when compounding the odds. PP stalling “works” but vic has likely done all the damage it needs by that point. Using tauros to slam it is obviously very risky if you don’t para and get slept, but the odds are pretty even for getting one or the other.

So, in those matchups, which are vics best, its potency is definitely very high. However, many other mons like mie, zap, zam, and especially gar make dealing with vic significantly easier, to the point where calling it harder to deal with than other RBY Pokemon starts to become obviously incorrect. It is also very easy to fit at least one of these on your team.

Regarding the uncompetitiveness of these trapping moves, this is where it starts to get less clear. I mean, it’s not really out of the player’s hands if they have the right team, but it very frequently does devolve into whether or not you can dodge one. I don’t feel very strongly in either direction but as always I’d like to urge people to be intellectually honest when convincing themselves and others of the necessity of this action.

 

[marcoasd]

From what I've seen there's been three currents that have been picking up support:
1. Trying tradebacks
2. Trying bans on Reflect Chansey and Snorlax
3. Doing nothing

Not sure how we'd go about proceeding from here, maybe some type of voting to see which option is preferred?

(And real quick, on Victreebel destroying starmie big4 rhydon: if the metagame evolves to make that team unviable, just stop using that team? it's not like that structure disappearing from the metagame is a problem)

They're all reasonable, but option number 3 is always available. I'd give both a shot, as a player I wouldn't be happy at all to see tradebacks taking OU's place but it looks like it has many supporters.

Starmie + Rhydon has always been a thing and it's pretty unlikely it will disappear, that's just a solid combination and teams with a Rock-type are needed in order to scare Zapdos. You might get the option to splash a fast pokemon at best, but in the long run defensive coverage has always been important and in RBY OU you obtain that by using pokemon with little or no weaknesses.
You can deal with the Victreebel matchup once in a while anyway, as long as the metagame keeps its usage low.
The main issue with Victreebel right now is that it's used often enough to be haunting you even when it's not part of the game.

 

[Charmflash]

I am firmly against ban chains, because the tier would turn into rby uu real fast, and at that point let's play that instead.
There are two problems that are fairly solvable via complex bans:

1- Wrap, i won't get tired of saying that this has to go into the ebin real soon, keep defending something like this with "it can miss" is so stupid that i can't believe it was used for real as an argument. You can hit moves vs Double Team or dodge ohko moves, can we try to stick as much as possible to competitive games and let rng ruin it in the old natural way? Instead of watching one guy saying, yeah i summon my Scarf Rachi and click 85% flinch Iron Head and the other waiting for that to miss?

2- Reflect on normals, if Snorlax did not have Reflect, Resting would be much harder if not impossible due to physical pressure. If Chansey didn't have Reflect, Rest itself would not be needed and we could have an offensive way to pressure it outside booms and crit haxs. It should be tested in my opinion, a world without Reflect normals could be so good and balanced, why not trying at least?

You can't ban them directly, Chansey is the main reason any pokemon with 90 speed and 100 special is not outright broken, let's keep it as it is.

I think the reason why people make the argument that wrap can miss is because you need to hit three hundred and forty six of them so the miss chance being there is significantly consistently lowering its efficiency. I do agree however with your first point that ban chains will eventually turn rby ou into rby uu at which point why would you not just play that instead. The only case I could see against this is that promoting the official 'status' of rby uu would in theory be beneficial if it was a better metagame so it can participate in tours such as SPL, however, I dislike the overall idea of significantly changing such an old metagame this dramatically. No real opinion on Reflect, I can see both the upsides as well as the downsides of such a change.

 

[marcoasd]

As for reflect, wow. I can’t believe the amount of people completely ignoring the drawbacks of using reflect lax/chans. In lax’s case, it needs to choose between booming instantly on threats like tauros zap (and chansey), eq coverage for rhydon gar and counter chans, and ice to actually threaten other normals like lax. It can’t do all of these at once. Resting lax is also incredibly prone to get crit and easy to abuse with stuff like egg. Chansey needs to drop twave, boltbeam coverage, or counter. Twave is a massive part of chansey actually punishing mons like tauros besides unreliable sing/freeze, self explanatory why it’s important there. Boltbeam is big for pressuring mie don, both very high in usage right now. Counter is simply the best at dissuading bslam spam from lax.

TIN pretty much nailed it on the subject: Reflect Snorlax is countered (almost) only by itself.
Snorlax is the best pokemon of the tier (the main difference with Tauros is that Tauros becomes manageable and/or gets KO'd at some point), and Reflect is the most important move. This obviously doesn't mean that Reflect+whatever variants will be the best moveset for every scenario, but its potential is unmatched and the fact that you are forced to include Ice Beam unless you're fine with getting forced out by an IceLax is actually worriesome rather than reassuring. To me, this is exactly where you might want to start considering a ban indeed: nobody ever asked to ban Ice Beam in the days of freeze wars between Chanseys, but ReflectLax is a different subject given that it's a midgame threat - something you have a terrible time at switching into.
Selfdestruct is a greedy move for ReflectLax, it has nothing to do with its main role just like being weak to Tauros and Zapdos. Booming on Chansey is something you don't really want to do early in the game no matter your moveset.
About special attacks, I look at it the other way around: resting Lax often switches out, its role is to Slam and switch out if threatened - with some paraslams or TWaves it becomes absolutely unmanageable (it will just fight another Normal-type more often than not indeeed...).
Getting your Exeggutor para'd is the beginning of the debacle.
You can switch pretty easily into special attacks, on the other hand Snorlax is inevitable unless you want to rely on walling a specific moveset - it depends both on you dedicating something to it and your opponent using exactly what you expect: that's a logic that works in tiers with a perfect stall like GSC, RBY has too many mechs that make it hard.
As a guy who has been supporting Physlax against all odds (also because using Lapras alongside with ReflectLax can lead you to some bad scenarios), I'm pretty convinced that you're overlooking the pros of using ReflectLax over Physlax.
Bottom line: Reflect Lax can switch into both Snorlax and Chansey, Physlax really doesn't want to (it's better against special attackers, which it doesn't want to fight directly - it finishes better, Hyper Beam is the real great move indeed and that's why you can see Reflect + Hyper Beam in spite of poor coverage).

BeamBolt Chansey has upsides right now (and it's intrinsically better at getting RNG since Reflect Chansey cannot FRZ nor crit), still, unstatused Reflect Chansey counters everything but Tauros and a para'd one is a status absorber and a wall that won't let you through for free unless you get a well timed Body Slam crit with Snorlax (before your opponent gains momentum).
Reflect Chansey can generate more value - BeamBolt is better against Rhydon, Starmie and unstatused Chansey, but Reflect Chansey is better against the tier.

 

[Hipmonlee]

So one thing I want to focus on first, is pinning down what the problems are rather than the solutions. I mean I am ok with the idea with tradebacks, but there isnt really any justification raised for it in terms of the issues with the current metagame.

Sleep:
So with that aside lets assume I am using a standard SPL IX type build.

So switch straight to reflect Chansey is a pretty safe option here (yes, watch out for explosion). The two options for the sleeper you've put forward are stun spore/thunderwave or switch to Tauros. Neither of these are a great problem. On the par line, your Chansey was going to get paralysed anyway. Par reflect Chansey vs unpar Chansey is just a gift. Your opponent must switch out to force the issue somehow, you should have no trouble exploiting that to get a free switch to your Eggy. Alternative Par reflect Chansey vs Eggy means that Eggy is switching, exploding or psychicing. Switch straight to your own Eggy and sleep it. Your opponent may explode on you, but you'll survive that, now you have a pokemon that has already netted a kill and still has a sleep and an explosion up its sleeve. That's fucking beautiful for you.

If your opponent goes to Tauros instead, you've got unpar Chan out vs Tauros. I think that Tauros is bailing. If you're unsure you can softboiled. Worst case Scenario you're still not in guaranteed KO range of hyperbeam. An average damage Crit and you're out of KO range of hyperbeam. Plus if Tauros was going to stay I would assume it was because it was going to earthquake. But this is mostly hypothetical cause I think that Tauros is switching. And now, with your unpar Chansey you just need to engineer a switch to Exeggutor. Although, given that Tauros is most likely either quaking or switching, you could go to Eggy right then and there. Cause that Tauros isnt switching to anything that isnt happy eating a thunderwave (IE its switching to something slow).

Now lets talk about the advantages of not rushing for the first sleep:
Opposing Rhydons are going to find it very hard to substitute, which means they will find it very hard to beat reflect Chansey.
You've got the best Slowbro cover you can hope for.
It makes it very hard for your opponent to hyperbeam.
Victreebel is much more forcing when it can sleep things.
You can target more valuable sleep victims more effectively (eg. paralyse Jynx so your eggy can wear it down, rather than letting it just nap).

For me the thing is, these sleep wars are RBY as it has always been. The t1 twave metagame that was popular recently is the anomaly in my eyes. If you actually build your plans around getting sleep, then you should be able to put yourself into a strong position to get sleep. It's all about calculating what you want to give up for it, and being prepared for multiple lines. That's the good bit of RBY. Where actually putting in time for preparation really pays off. I mean, unless, having done all that work, your opponent just 1 turn wakes. That bit sucks.

I'll have to come back later for reflect lax and wrap.

 

[Peasounay]

The only valid point of discussion is wrap. Anything regarding tradebacks, pokemon bans, reflect bans, etc. is just entirely unfounded and unnecessary.

Tradebacks don’t need to be allowed because it’s something unique to RBY but also because we’d need to ban lax after (lkiss). In terms of being close to cart I’d rather say we just have 2 legends banned than banning lax and maybe needing more bans, thus defacing the competitive identity of RBY OU.

And why exactly would someone like you who doesn't main RBY and isn't particularly good at it would be entitled to decide what the current RBY community is allowed to discuss or not about its tier ? Because of some arbitrary tier-leading policies ? Stop acting like a government thinking you know better for the people what's good for them. Give me one valid argument for not trying out tradebacks with LK banned on Snorlax or with Reflect banned on normals (since it's something that is suggested) or anything else that has the objective of making the tier more enjoyable for the people who play it ? Right, there isn't one except a completely subjective tiering rule that says "no complex bans" or "we rule all gens the same" that is completely stupid because as I said in my first post there is no scientific reasoning behind it that says it's how tiering balancing should be done at all.

The only thing we should strive for is the most enjoyable tier to play for its playerbase, and if the current playerbase who is competent at the tier wants to try out something because it believes the tier has an issue and that some tweak would solve it, then let them do and go play SM OU while they actually want to fix the tier they will be the ones playing.

See I personally don't think Wrap is ban-worthy, but guess what if there's a vote about it tomorrow i'll abstain simply because i'm not playing the game enough anymore so I won't impose my views on people who are currently playing it and making it live. BKC and Lavos have been arguing for a Wrap ban in the OGC Discord, and while they're not bad at the tier by any means, they are 1) not playing it all year long in tournaments 2) I don't believe they're competent enough to understand the entirety of what wrap implies in RBY to have a "qualified enough" opinion. And you're even worse because you're coming here just to say "lol no" to suggestions made by the top players who believe could make the tier better and most importantly know what they're talking about. Is it really that hard to be humble dude ? If banning Reflect on normals solves everything then do it, gosh

Pokemon is really just a game we play on the internet, it blows my mind how some of you on this website want to complicate things. This isn't about tiering, it's about how balanced and enjoyable RBY is ought to be. If this is how you want to handle RBY on this website then i'll answer the original question very simply: there isn't any future for rby on smogon if people who don't play the tier cockblock some suggestions because they want some subjective cold rules applied over how the dudes who actually play the game want to play it, because nothing positive will get out from it except some enjoyment for secretaries who applied some random rule