Gothita doesn't get Stored Power. Ralts also has better defensive stats.
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The Negative Metagame
- Thread starter Codraroll
- Start date
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Gothita doesn't get Stored Power. Ralts also has better defensive stats.
Gothita also doesn't get Shadow Tag yet.
Wut. It has been released for like a year.
Then someone needs to update its page.
Also, I've been doing private matches without evio. so good.
Also, I've been doing private matches without evio. so good.
Alright, seeing as there only has been arguments in favour of it, Eviolite will be banned if there aren't presented any good counter-arguments within the next, say, 24 hours.
It could also be tweaked to only work on Pokémon with pre-evolutions, but then it still wouldn't stop Marill. I think we'll go for bannage, seeing as that seems to be what people wants.
It could also be tweaked to only work on Pokémon with pre-evolutions, but then it still wouldn't stop Marill. I think we'll go for bannage, seeing as that seems to be what people wants.
Shadow Tag Gothita was never released. Male-only Shadow Tag Gothorita was released, meaning it and Gothitelle get Shadow Tag but cannot pass it on to Gothorita.
I played an Eviolite-less match last night, and the metagame seems incredibly offensive. It's basically a race to see whose Marill can beat the other person's Marill and proceed to sweep. When I played against LonelyNess (with Eviolite - lost), the same thing could have happened if it weren't for Lileep potentially coming in and getting a free boost off of it.
I played an Eviolite-less match last night, and the metagame seems incredibly offensive. It's basically a race to see whose Marill can beat the other person's Marill and proceed to sweep. When I played against LonelyNess (with Eviolite - lost), the same thing could have happened if it weren't for Lileep potentially coming in and getting a free boost off of it.
Yeah, Marill's too good, it's the Meta Knight of this metagame. Trapinch has gotten some complaints but his only real set is rest talk with EP and HP Ice, and its special stat is pretty low for this tier. Meditite has a similar problem to Marill, however it doesn't have STAB priority and is easily outsped.
The best Trapinch (and Diglett) set is Earth Power / Toxic / Rest / Sleep Talk
If you lack a boosting move (and sometimes even if you have it), or Rest, you are dead.
Without Eviolite, Marill should probably be banned.
My preferred ban list (assuming Eviolite is banned)
Shuckle
Marill
Diglett / Trapinch
If you lack a boosting move (and sometimes even if you have it), or Rest, you are dead.
Without Eviolite, Marill should probably be banned.
My preferred ban list (assuming Eviolite is banned)
Shuckle
Marill
Diglett / Trapinch
With that set it sounds like Diglett would be better
Trapinch is nice for revenge killing things that are low on HP, since it's generally faster than most things.
But you just said the toxic stall set was the best?
The toxic stall set runs Earth Power.
Earth Power is an attack.
This allows it to revenge kill things.
Earth Power is an attack.
This allows it to revenge kill things.
here some underrated mon
Geodude @ Life Orb
Ability : Sturdy
BS : 120 / 80 / 60 / 130 / 130 / 140
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ice / Rock
- Stealth Rock
Geodude can be a nice special sweeper with its good coverage and high speed plus he has a high special bulk and a good ability. (he can be a decent lead so)
However he is completely destroyed by Trapinch and Marill.
Happiny @ Choice Band
Ability : Serene Grace
BS : 60 / 150 / 150 / 145 / 95 / 130
- Facade
- Return
- Shadow Ball
- Zen Headbutt
A very funny bander, if she has a statut like poison, u can be sure u gonna break some bones with Facade, Sball hits ghosts hardly and zen headbutt is just here to fill out.
An another set which is specially oriented is possible, with serene grace u can combine the prec fell from mud bomb (60%) with the fire blast burn (20%), the sball spd fell (40%) and water pulse confusion (40%).
Finally a "jirahax" set with twave, headbutt, shadow ball and waterpulse can be fun too.
Zigazagoon @ Leftovers / Salac Berry
Ability : Glutonny
BS : 122 / 130 / 119 / 130 / 119 / 100
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Tails
- Shadow Claw
Here we're the best belly drummer in the game if marill got banned, with the adamant nature he reach to 1576 atk after belly drum. He has an excellent priority attack and good defenses which assure the set-up.
Iron Tails crushes Rock Pokemon (especially Lileep) and SClaw is obviously for Ghost.
Lefties are here for the staying power and to cancel the ss/hs damages, salac berry can make zigzagoon outspeed shuckle (and the whole meta except scarf) after a speed boost.
Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability : Rock Head
BS : 110 / 110 / 65 / 120 / 110 / 125
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Double Edge
- Rock Slide / Ice Punch
With Thick Club, he has 638 atk stat with a jolly nature. This set is sample, SD and sweep.
Geodude @ Life Orb
Ability : Sturdy
BS : 120 / 80 / 60 / 130 / 130 / 140
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ice / Rock
- Stealth Rock
Geodude can be a nice special sweeper with its good coverage and high speed plus he has a high special bulk and a good ability. (he can be a decent lead so)
However he is completely destroyed by Trapinch and Marill.
Happiny @ Choice Band
Ability : Serene Grace
BS : 60 / 150 / 150 / 145 / 95 / 130
- Facade
- Return
- Shadow Ball
- Zen Headbutt
A very funny bander, if she has a statut like poison, u can be sure u gonna break some bones with Facade, Sball hits ghosts hardly and zen headbutt is just here to fill out.
An another set which is specially oriented is possible, with serene grace u can combine the prec fell from mud bomb (60%) with the fire blast burn (20%), the sball spd fell (40%) and water pulse confusion (40%).
Finally a "jirahax" set with twave, headbutt, shadow ball and waterpulse can be fun too.
Zigazagoon @ Leftovers / Salac Berry
Ability : Glutonny
BS : 122 / 130 / 119 / 130 / 119 / 100
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Tails
- Shadow Claw
Here we're the best belly drummer in the game if marill got banned, with the adamant nature he reach to 1576 atk after belly drum. He has an excellent priority attack and good defenses which assure the set-up.
Iron Tails crushes Rock Pokemon (especially Lileep) and SClaw is obviously for Ghost.
Lefties are here for the staying power and to cancel the ss/hs damages, salac berry can make zigzagoon outspeed shuckle (and the whole meta except scarf) after a speed boost.
Cubone @ Thick Club
Ability : Rock Head
BS : 110 / 110 / 65 / 120 / 110 / 125
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Double Edge
- Rock Slide / Ice Punch
With Thick Club, he has 638 atk stat with a jolly nature. This set is sample, SD and sweep.
Zigzagoon doesn't learn Shadow Claw.
Also, Cleffa is the best Belly Drummer, even without Marill, because it learns Recover meaning you can be an extremely bulky general purpose wall for most of the game, while threatening a sweep at the end. Think Gen 2 Snorlax.
Also, Cleffa is the best Belly Drummer, even without Marill, because it learns Recover meaning you can be an extremely bulky general purpose wall for most of the game, while threatening a sweep at the end. Think Gen 2 Snorlax.
Here are my thoughts after playing a few games:
- Pokemon stats are now high, but boring. Every Pokemon plays like Arceus with all their stats at about 120. This means very few walls, glass cannons, or slow powerhouses, which is disappointing. In addition, this is why Eviolite is broken.
- Diglett with Final gambit and memento is good.
- Lotad mostly outclasses Sunkern.
- Pokemon stats are now high, but boring. Every Pokemon plays like Arceus with all their stats at about 120. This means very few walls, glass cannons, or slow powerhouses, which is disappointing. In addition, this is why Eviolite is broken.
- Diglett with Final gambit and memento is good.
- Lotad mostly outclasses Sunkern.
Now that Eviolite's out of the way, let's talk about Marill.
It's too good, every team has a Marill and without Eviolite the only way to stop it is with a bulky water resist. Every team has a Marill and Marill can turn a 5-1 into an 0-1 so easily it's not even funny.
It's too good, every team has a Marill and without Eviolite the only way to stop it is with a bulky water resist. Every team has a Marill and Marill can turn a 5-1 into an 0-1 so easily it's not even funny.
Would Chinchou work as a Marill stopper? With Water Absorb, it can come in on Aqua Jet, then fire off a Wild Charge off its 122 Attack. Its speed and defenses are somewhat mediocre, but it could potentially be harmful to Marill.
Dry Skin Paras works approximately the same, recovering HP from Aqua Jet and using base 115 Sp.Atk to Giga Drain Marill. It also outspeeds, which works well with Spore.
Or is Marill simply too powerful and deserves bannage? Please discuss.
Dry Skin Paras works approximately the same, recovering HP from Aqua Jet and using base 115 Sp.Atk to Giga Drain Marill. It also outspeeds, which works well with Spore.
Or is Marill simply too powerful and deserves bannage? Please discuss.
I'd like to mention that Lotad could potentially be a good counter to Marill, 4x resisting its STAB while only being hit neutrally by it's coverage moves. Meanwhile, it can Giga Drain to recover damage and give a SE hit. Also, unlike other options, Lotad's stats are fenomenal - they're almost as good as Sunkerns. For reference:
120 / 130 / 130 / 120 / 110 / 130
Those are Lotads stats.
Some calcs
Keep in mind that Marill's best choice vs Lotad is Superpower, which will lower it's Attack each times it's used, not to mention that Giga Drain heals Lotad. Also, Lotad is definitely not just a niche mon: in fact, it's one of the few Grass-types that can compete with Sunkern and not be completely overshadowed by Arceukern.
120 / 130 / 130 / 120 / 110 / 130
Those are Lotads stats.
Some calcs
Code:
252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lotad: 242-285 (63.35 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 162-191 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lotad: 152-179 (39.79 - 46.85%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lotad: 242-285 (54.5 - 64.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lotad: 162-191 (36.48 - 43.01%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lotad: 181-214 (40.76 - 48.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 121-143 (27.25 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Lotad Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Marill: 281-330 (87.26 - 102.48%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Lotad Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Marill: 156-186 (48.44 - 57.76%) -- 47.27% chance to 2HKOKeep in mind that Marill's best choice vs Lotad is Superpower, which will lower it's Attack each times it's used, not to mention that Giga Drain heals Lotad. Also, Lotad is definitely not just a niche mon: in fact, it's one of the few Grass-types that can compete with Sunkern and not be completely overshadowed by Arceukern.
There are very few Pokemon who can reliably counter Marill, and those who can't are countered by it. This makes the metagame Marill-centric, and when the entire metagame is centered around one Pokemon, it's time for a ban.
How about, rather than banning Marill, we ban Pure Power instead? Meditite could be argued as broken as well (idk about Azurill, as I've seen no one use it), and Marill could still see some use outside of Pure Power thanks to it's 140 offenses, and it's good abilities outside of Pure Power (Sap Sipper and Thick Fat).
Marill is Huge Power, Meditite is Pure Power. And Meditite isn't really a problem, its actually relatively slow and doesn't have very great defenses. It also doesn't get STAB on its priority move, and said priority move is a bad attacking type.
But let's say it is OP; why ban both those abilities? Azumarill and Azurill aren't necessarily OP and Medicham would almost definitely not be.
But let's say it is OP; why ban both those abilities? Azumarill and Azurill aren't necessarily OP and Medicham would almost definitely not be.
Whoops, my bad. :P I always confuse the two lol.
And yeah, you do have a point. To be honest, I just really want to use Sap Sipper / Thick Fat Marill (Marill is still good even without Huge Power, which I guess is part of the reason why it's kinda broke with it)
Either way, I do agree, Huge Power Marill is kind of over-centralizing, and should be banned.
Why would you ever use Thick Fat on it? Sap Sipper gives it an immunity to a weakness, and it already resists Fire and Ice.
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