Abomasnow has a lot of weaknesses. Ninetales in particular can deal with it, resisting both Abomasnow's STABs and promptly frying it.
Maybe we'll see a lot of Hail vs. Sandstorm? (sigh) if only there was an UU auto-rain inducer....
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The New Face of UU
- Thread starter TVboyCanti
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Maybe we'll see a lot of Hail vs. Sandstorm? (sigh) if only there was an UU auto-rain inducer....
Agreeing that Hail Teams will dominate this new era. This will pretty much completely end Rain Dance teams' existences imo. And also, what does this mean for Golduck, one of the main stops to Rain Dance with its Cloud Five (or w/e) ability? Well sure Golduck will eliminate effects in Hail, such as the increase power in Blizzard or Frosslass' ability Snow Cloak or Walrein's Ice Body (or w/e) ability. But regardless of stopping Hail, Abomasnow beats Golduck anyway due to having at most neutrality to the common Golduck's CM set, Ice Beam being that move hitting neutral, with its decent typing and SpDef/HP and being able to hit back with Wood Hammer and possibly recover HP with Leech Seed.
For Golduck this could mean a decrease in the CM set and an increase in the Mixed Set with Cross Chop. Or if such a CM set should exist in Golduck, it could carry HP Fire as a lure to Abomasnow and take it out by outspeeding and simply hitting it.
Overall I'll simply say, here we go again =/
For Golduck this could mean a decrease in the CM set and an increase in the Mixed Set with Cross Chop. Or if such a CM set should exist in Golduck, it could carry HP Fire as a lure to Abomasnow and take it out by outspeeding and simply hitting it.
Overall I'll simply say, here we go again =/
I don't know where Empoleon is on that list since this thing is actually listed as BL right now. That thing should be OU also as it's 50 on November's usage list.
Haunter and Sneasel, with their great speed in comparison with most UU's and others, have wonderful speed and great special attack and attack, respectively, to sweep in these tiers. With some of the greatest walls missing, such as Rhyperior and Empoleon, they may actually put a threat. I'd like to see them on the list of notable NFEs as well.
Gallade has dropped to #52 in usage, and probably will drop even more. If by any chance December usages shows so, would he have a chance to rejoin BLs/the tests?
This thing is currently behind BLs such as Empoleon, Milotic and Umbreon, ranked at 55.
That's just a few that I can think of.
Will there be a separate ladder for testing UU + BL + NFE? To be honest I like the UU metagame as it is and would hate to see permanent sand and hail polluting it. Shit like Calm Mind Slowbro / Mismagius / Raikou / Spiritomb, Agility Empoleon, Rain Dance Ludicolo, Choice Band Rampardos, Swords Dance Rhyperior, and Choice Specs Shaymin are without a doubt overpowered for the metagame and will be banned to BL, but I don't want to have to deal with the aforementioned threats as well as gay stall a la Chansey, Umbreon, Dusclops, Ice Body Walrein, and the Regis for six weeks waiting for a vote.
Aside from Hippopotas and Snover, I find many NFE Pokemon viable in the UU metagame. No Guard Machoke looks very interesting as does Yanma, without both Compoundeyes and Speed Boost to play with. Kadabra and Haunter will without a doubt become powerhouses but will be kept in check by the already abundant Sucker Punch. Chansey and Dusclops will make breaking stall a real fucking bitch.
Don't fuck up UU, please.
Aside from Hippopotas and Snover, I find many NFE Pokemon viable in the UU metagame. No Guard Machoke looks very interesting as does Yanma, without both Compoundeyes and Speed Boost to play with. Kadabra and Haunter will without a doubt become powerhouses but will be kept in check by the already abundant Sucker Punch. Chansey and Dusclops will make breaking stall a real fucking bitch.
Don't fuck up UU, please.
Gallade is not OU at the moment, so if it remains like that, Gallade can potentially wreck UU teams with ease with this moveset:
Gallade @ Life Orb
252 Atk / 16 Def / 240 Spe
nature: Adamant
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Ice Punch
-Zen Headbutt / Night Slash
Gallade would literally become the Lucario of UU as after a SD, he can OHKO Steelix with Close Combat, Weezing & Intimidate Top with Zen Headbutt and Claydol with Ice Punch. Moreover, if the popular Technitop uses a Fake-Out, Gallade would reach 384 Speed, outpacing Sweelow, making the sweep even easier.
Also, add Gligar in the good NFE list, since he can completely wall Hitmonlee and Pinsir(now BL). Also, Gligar could be the only full stop to Pinsir, as Weezing can be Earthquake-d to death, thanks to Mold Beraker.
EDIT: "Chansey and Dusclops will make breaking stall a real fucking bitch." -> Gallade gets rid of them if you consider Night Slash.
Gallade @ Life Orb
252 Atk / 16 Def / 240 Spe
nature: Adamant
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Ice Punch
-Zen Headbutt / Night Slash
Gallade would literally become the Lucario of UU as after a SD, he can OHKO Steelix with Close Combat, Weezing & Intimidate Top with Zen Headbutt and Claydol with Ice Punch. Moreover, if the popular Technitop uses a Fake-Out, Gallade would reach 384 Speed, outpacing Sweelow, making the sweep even easier.
Also, add Gligar in the good NFE list, since he can completely wall Hitmonlee and Pinsir(now BL). Also, Gligar could be the only full stop to Pinsir, as Weezing can be Earthquake-d to death, thanks to Mold Beraker.
EDIT: "Chansey and Dusclops will make breaking stall a real fucking bitch." -> Gallade gets rid of them if you consider Night Slash.
I see Chansey in the top 10, as with Espeon, Sceptile, Typhlosion and Raikou (Shaymin-G!) in the mix, it's not like there's any lack of extremely powerful special sweepers, kept in check in OU+ mostly because of the presence of Blissey. In fact, I'd go as far to say as without Chansey, new-UU would probably become the most special-oriented metagame ever.
I'll be extremely interested to see how Abamasnow goes. Stallrein could make a serious come back in an environment that will be almost devoid of sand (I don't see anyone actually using hippopatas). However, with Weavile and Mamoswine out of the equation though, hail teams might be "up a creek without a paddle" as the saying goes.
I think it's likely that Flygon at least could rise in useage even more, and I wouldn't count on it or rhyperior coming down (though I'd abuse flygon to all hell if it did). With Rhyperior, Flygon, Mamoswine and Hippow all stuck in OU, I'd say that the new UU is going to be pretty wanting of good ground types (if one wanted one for a t-wave absorber). I'm sorry, but Gabite is crap, period. Claydol and Gastrodon at least are tried and tested to perform decently even in OU (while Steelix is basically outclassed completely), but I think will be very hard pressed to deal with new threats.
Actually, Steel as always remains the most starved type of UU. Every half-decent Steel type is already in the top-half of OU. I guess we now get Registeel, who is slightly more useful (maybe?) than steelix. One thing for sure is that walling Swellow will not be a top priority anymore.
Anyone remember when Scizor was BL? :P
I'll be extremely interested to see how Abamasnow goes. Stallrein could make a serious come back in an environment that will be almost devoid of sand (I don't see anyone actually using hippopatas). However, with Weavile and Mamoswine out of the equation though, hail teams might be "up a creek without a paddle" as the saying goes.
I think it's likely that Flygon at least could rise in useage even more, and I wouldn't count on it or rhyperior coming down (though I'd abuse flygon to all hell if it did). With Rhyperior, Flygon, Mamoswine and Hippow all stuck in OU, I'd say that the new UU is going to be pretty wanting of good ground types (if one wanted one for a t-wave absorber). I'm sorry, but Gabite is crap, period. Claydol and Gastrodon at least are tried and tested to perform decently even in OU (while Steelix is basically outclassed completely), but I think will be very hard pressed to deal with new threats.
Actually, Steel as always remains the most starved type of UU. Every half-decent Steel type is already in the top-half of OU. I guess we now get Registeel, who is slightly more useful (maybe?) than steelix. One thing for sure is that walling Swellow will not be a top priority anymore.
Anyone remember when Scizor was BL? :P
He doesn't flinch on the switch-in, so Steadfast wouldn't activate.
I don't like this thread. I kind of liked the probably false idea i had in my head that people would not theory hype and theory ban things based on the old uu or that people would not go "lol abomasnow is overcentralizing" before the test even started. So, yeah, not participating in any discussion until new UU starts. Though if RB has a correct picture we might have a fine metagame to begin with.
One thing though: Chansey, Hippopotas, and Snover are all terrible Pokémon. Chansey has shit Special Attack, so it's just asking for virtually anything to come in on it and not care. Mismagius is highly underrated and beats Chansey without even blinking an eye. It may be top 10 for a week due to hype but it will quickly plummet as Seismic Toss doesn't exactly faze anything. Hippopotas has pretty shitty stats, and Snover is largely the same.
One thing though: Chansey, Hippopotas, and Snover are all terrible Pokémon. Chansey has shit Special Attack, so it's just asking for virtually anything to come in on it and not care. Mismagius is highly underrated and beats Chansey without even blinking an eye. It may be top 10 for a week due to hype but it will quickly plummet as Seismic Toss doesn't exactly faze anything. Hippopotas has pretty shitty stats, and Snover is largely the same.
@T-Bag, fixed
Also, you're missing the point as we very well could be making NU later on. IMO, the current UU is not a very exciting metagame anyway . . . trick-EVERYTHING + Absol + fighting type . . . wooh . . .
Actually I think Hariyama is a very exciting addition. Great Bulk, great resistances, and 120 base ATK!! woot
Also, Starapter! Remember the age of intimidate leads with Gyara and Salamence? I'm looking forward to trying starapter leads for that "instant advantage." Eat your heart out abamasnow lead. :P
Also, you're missing the point as we very well could be making NU later on. IMO, the current UU is not a very exciting metagame anyway . . . trick-EVERYTHING + Absol + fighting type . . . wooh . . .
Actually I think Hariyama is a very exciting addition. Great Bulk, great resistances, and 120 base ATK!! woot
Also, Starapter! Remember the age of intimidate leads with Gyara and Salamence? I'm looking forward to trying starapter leads for that "instant advantage." Eat your heart out abamasnow lead. :P
Gallade is 52nd in November, which is just out of OU; so it could make it into the test.
Nobody thought of Fraligatr yet? The Gyarados of UU! No weakness to SR makes him all the more awesome. With a Sub / DD / Waterfall / Return, Feraligatr can easily stop Weezing as well.
Also, Choice Band Torterra seems to have good power in UU, as Wood Hammer can wreck havoc, thanks to lack of a plethora of steel Pokemon. Torterra could also be the best Rhydon counter, who could run similar sets like Rhyperior and smash entire teams.
@Steinhauser: oops! fixed.
Nobody thought of Fraligatr yet? The Gyarados of UU! No weakness to SR makes him all the more awesome. With a Sub / DD / Waterfall / Return, Feraligatr can easily stop Weezing as well.
Also, Choice Band Torterra seems to have good power in UU, as Wood Hammer can wreck havoc, thanks to lack of a plethora of steel Pokemon. Torterra could also be the best Rhydon counter, who could run similar sets like Rhyperior and smash entire teams.
@Steinhauser: oops! fixed.
Beh, Intimidate is 60% of why I use Gyarados. Dragon Dance is about 10%. Overall, Feraligator is no replacement in my book. However, it will be a very good offensive water type just the same.
I guess my major gripe with the current UU is that the offensive pokemon are too weak to do jack overall (with the exception of Absol picking up a kill or two a game). That's why practically every damn team is a massive stall-fest, where a team is looking to set up SR, spikes, trick (multiples!), screens, status, all on in one team!
We need some offensive power-houses that can pose enough NOW threat.
I guess my major gripe with the current UU is that the offensive pokemon are too weak to do jack overall (with the exception of Absol picking up a kill or two a game). That's why practically every damn team is a massive stall-fest, where a team is looking to set up SR, spikes, trick (multiples!), screens, status, all on in one team!
We need some offensive power-houses that can pose enough NOW threat.
Something interesting I thought about the new UU is that there's no "gap" between UU and OU. The current UU is filled with pokemon that generally aren't playable against standards no matter what (rightfully making them never used pokemon) that are separated from OU by the humongous BL tier. So with that huge gap between UU and OU gone, it would theoretically not be difficult for UU pokemon to make the jump up to OU, so long as somebody is willing to take the risk of using a non-standard.
Pokemon like choice band torterra and dual screen uxie can be extremely useful in OU when used properly and with the right synergy, but because they're not "standard" people stay away from them when team building. Once they really get a taste of what they've been missing, people will be more open to using BL pokemon in their teams in OU. This could result in the indirect decentralizing of OU.
Pokemon like choice band torterra and dual screen uxie can be extremely useful in OU when used properly and with the right synergy, but because they're not "standard" people stay away from them when team building. Once they really get a taste of what they've been missing, people will be more open to using BL pokemon in their teams in OU. This could result in the indirect decentralizing of OU.
Actually Canti, we WILL have a BL list again eventually. It will probably just be a lot smaller. There will inevitably be pokemon that we think worth banning in UU. Also even if pokemon like say, Alakazam, sometimes fall out of OU, we would (over time) figure out whether these pokemon are BL or not. So eventually we could comprise a list of BL pokemon, some of whom might spend most of their time as OU pokes, but when/if they fall we'd already have a verdict on its BL/UU status.
Sounds like fun to me
Stallteams including regi's are nothing compared to those in OU so that will just make things easier
Many Pokémons that you have quoted seem indeed me wasted in UU, they must perhaps be moved toward some tiers superior, at esemply Abomasnow is fundamental for a Hail team.
I'm very interested to see what happens to Chansey. To be honest I can't see it being deemed "BL" simply due to usage due to the fact that there will be plenty of fighters to take it out: Medicham, Blaziken, hell I even considered Machoke for this job, and there's still Hitmontop, Primape or Hitmonlee if people feel like using them (not to mention they will have outstanding coverage against the Regi's too.)
SO I believe that based on usage Chansey will "look" fine, but are it's base stats that different to Blissey's, my initial thoughts were "no", and I'll explain why, Max HP / Max Def Blissey only takes physical hits slightly worse than the old 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey, when the base stats are that low (10 Def for Blissey, 5 Def for Chansey) it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, the only "real" difference is that of Special attack (which Blissey isn't exactly renowned for), so what bothers me about it is the fact that Chansey might not be "broken" in UU, but may remain in the tier, doing exactly the same job that Blissey would have done should we have put her in the tier =/
Now we may decide that that's not an issue because OU is based entirely on Usage anyway, and if that is the case, so be it. The system that we have works, but it's at least an interesting way of looking at it, if chansey works in the new tier, lets keep it there. (Am I the only one working on offensive teams here?)
@ below poster - indeed it could just use Seismic Toss, I did say that Blissey isn't exactly renowned for it's special attacking ability, Chansey is even less so, making it likely that it will be Chansey's attacking move of choice.
SO I believe that based on usage Chansey will "look" fine, but are it's base stats that different to Blissey's, my initial thoughts were "no", and I'll explain why, Max HP / Max Def Blissey only takes physical hits slightly worse than the old 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey, when the base stats are that low (10 Def for Blissey, 5 Def for Chansey) it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, the only "real" difference is that of Special attack (which Blissey isn't exactly renowned for), so what bothers me about it is the fact that Chansey might not be "broken" in UU, but may remain in the tier, doing exactly the same job that Blissey would have done should we have put her in the tier =/
Now we may decide that that's not an issue because OU is based entirely on Usage anyway, and if that is the case, so be it. The system that we have works, but it's at least an interesting way of looking at it, if chansey works in the new tier, lets keep it there. (Am I the only one working on offensive teams here?)
@ below poster - indeed it could just use Seismic Toss, I did say that Blissey isn't exactly renowned for it's special attacking ability, Chansey is even less so, making it likely that it will be Chansey's attacking move of choice.
what's the problem with Chansey only using Seismic Toss?
She still has Wish/T-Wave/Toxic/Aroma to support the team exactly like Blissey. The lower Def almost makes no diffence.
(edit: Bold 40 HP/252 Def Chansey has the same hp/def as Calm 252 Def Blissey)
Ubers Blissey only uses Seismic Toss as an attack and that doesn't stop her there.
anyway, it will be nice to use cool things like Typhlosion/Shaymin
She still has Wish/T-Wave/Toxic/Aroma to support the team exactly like Blissey. The lower Def almost makes no diffence.
(edit: Bold 40 HP/252 Def Chansey has the same hp/def as Calm 252 Def Blissey)
Ubers Blissey only uses Seismic Toss as an attack and that doesn't stop her there.
anyway, it will be nice to use cool things like Typhlosion/Shaymin
Chansey will be a must with Thyplosion, Shaymin, Raikou, Ludicolo and others, and it works like Blissey, but without Ice Beam, which isn't so needed, because all the dragons are in OU but Altaria. The only problem would be Mismagius, but there are a lot of things that stop it in this new UU tier.
I think that Espeon will be the UU Gengar, with the same stats and slightly better defense. With Psychic, HP Fire, Grass Knot and Signal Beam, it could cause a lot of problems, the same happens to Sceptile, which won't really like to see Chansey in UU, but Sub Leech Seed is really useful.
You are looking for a good Ground type. What about the big Torterra? In UU Ice attacks won't be as used as in OU, because of the lack of dragons, and with great defense, attack, HP and resistance to Ground and Rock, which is useful to stop Rampardos.
I think that Espeon will be the UU Gengar, with the same stats and slightly better defense. With Psychic, HP Fire, Grass Knot and Signal Beam, it could cause a lot of problems, the same happens to Sceptile, which won't really like to see Chansey in UU, but Sub Leech Seed is really useful.
You are looking for a good Ground type. What about the big Torterra? In UU Ice attacks won't be as used as in OU, because of the lack of dragons, and with great defense, attack, HP and resistance to Ground and Rock, which is useful to stop Rampardos.
Nice! This will be awesome. I'd love to use Gardevoir and Slowbro!
The rise of Hail teams will be pretty interesting, I'd love to see what people can come up with.
The rise of Hail teams will be pretty interesting, I'd love to see what people can come up with.
I really love how this post is complete idiocy, but Chris can jump on that later. He didn't even spell correctly.
The OP didn't really spark intelligent conversation either, but whatever.
Anyways, my thoughts.
I can see Lopunny + Marowak being a good combo to use offensively, only being walled by incredibly sturdy stuff, like Tangrowth. Lopunny passes Agility and a Substitute to Marowak, and it destroys any non-stall team.
Hurr hurr, I'd jump on that later, if you know what I mean...
The "relaxed, decentralized favorites metagame" is an ideal that many think that UU, NU, or Little Cup or any "lower" tier will bring them, and sadly this will never happen. Pokémon will always be competitive, as it should be, and thus there will always be more powerful Pokémon than others that are used more.
Sorry to burst your bubble. And Kat, I'd prefer you not announce the posts I jump on. I prefer to leave my victims unaware of what I've just done to them.
The "relaxed, decentralized favorites metagame" is an ideal that many think that UU, NU, or Little Cup or any "lower" tier will bring them, and sadly this will never happen. Pokémon will always be competitive, as it should be, and thus there will always be more powerful Pokémon than others that are used more.
Sorry to burst your bubble. And Kat, I'd prefer you not announce the posts I jump on. I prefer to leave my victims unaware of what I've just done to them.
I'd like to point out another and possibly luckier pokemon in new UU: Blaziken.
Blaziken had always been outclassed by Infernape in DP, but with no Infernape to be outclassed by...Blaziken is gonna have a great time firing off his nice STABs all over UU.
Of course, this is all in theory. But coming from this thread, all the hype for Abomasnow, Chansey(lol), Regis(who he all hits for SE) and Shaymin get hurt, maybe not KO'ed, but get damaged one way or another so they won't be repeatedly coming back again to spoil your day. Although I can't see him pulling of an LO set any time soon, a Scarf set could possibly work to make up for the speed.
Anyway, I look forward to playing on the new ladder when it comes out so see you there.
Blaziken had always been outclassed by Infernape in DP, but with no Infernape to be outclassed by...Blaziken is gonna have a great time firing off his nice STABs all over UU.
Of course, this is all in theory. But coming from this thread, all the hype for Abomasnow, Chansey(lol), Regis(who he all hits for SE) and Shaymin get hurt, maybe not KO'ed, but get damaged one way or another so they won't be repeatedly coming back again to spoil your day. Although I can't see him pulling of an LO set any time soon, a Scarf set could possibly work to make up for the speed.
Anyway, I look forward to playing on the new ladder when it comes out so see you there.
Yeah, that was something that I was waiting for ;). Anyway:
I'm only worried about total domination of Hail teams and in previous UU for me the best thing was that there weren't any auto-weather changers. But I guess people will just find good ways to fight hail teams and their popularity will decrease earlier or later.
About Pinsir - another dangerous threat and Gligar (only Max HP/Max Def one, a bit less defences and it's clear 2OHKO with CB Stone Edge with SR up) being to only really reliable answer on it. Luckily being SR weak doesn't help him, so I think it will be fine after all. It looks similar with Blaziken (and I guess a few more walls can work like for example Dusclops), but Uxie and Mesprit can handle him. In overall it's going to be really interesting, on the beginning dominated by stall, but I hope it will change.
And after creating new UU and NU I don't see any reason for not existing next tier like RU (Rarely Used) just for the worst pokemon like Dustox, Bastiodon or Pelipper, which were rare even in old UU. But I guess it's a discussion for another thread. Anyway, I can't wait for that UU/BL tests ;).
Most of times it's true but pokemon like Lanturn are really usable even in OU and I think that Electric Fish will find his niche in new UU/BL tier with really usefull resistances (and I don't want to trust Chansey too much in taking Special Hits). Also I can see some uses for Defensive Altaria to stop Shaymin and Typhlosion most of times taking fire and grass attacks quite comfortable with solid 75 HP/105 SpD. And with probably with much less use of Ice attacks it will be easier. And no one should underestimate DDAltaria with only few steels to take STAB Outrages (and something like ScarfMagneton can fix it quite easily).
I'm only worried about total domination of Hail teams and in previous UU for me the best thing was that there weren't any auto-weather changers. But I guess people will just find good ways to fight hail teams and their popularity will decrease earlier or later.
About Pinsir - another dangerous threat and Gligar (only Max HP/Max Def one, a bit less defences and it's clear 2OHKO with CB Stone Edge with SR up) being to only really reliable answer on it. Luckily being SR weak doesn't help him, so I think it will be fine after all. It looks similar with Blaziken (and I guess a few more walls can work like for example Dusclops), but Uxie and Mesprit can handle him. In overall it's going to be really interesting, on the beginning dominated by stall, but I hope it will change.
And after creating new UU and NU I don't see any reason for not existing next tier like RU (Rarely Used) just for the worst pokemon like Dustox, Bastiodon or Pelipper, which were rare even in old UU. But I guess it's a discussion for another thread. Anyway, I can't wait for that UU/BL tests ;).
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