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The Next Best Thing - Sawk [Voting]
- Thread starter skylight
- Start date
- Status
I agree. I am pretty well stuck between Joshua and Kakuna. Ultimately, my vote goes out to Kakuna. This isn't because JoshuaMunoz is winning either (because my set isn't incredible anyways, haha), but more because I don't feel like Weezing is the best Taunt user because of its poor speed.
Im gonna go with Leafshield's lol jk what kinda guy do you think I am? I'm gonna go with Kakuna's Set because I don't think Taunt is very effective on Weezing.
Treecko37
Kakuna
Treecko37
Treecko37. DB on Weezing sounds like a very cool idea.
Shuckleking, though I like kakuna's
FIRST AGAIN!
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Substitute
-Work Up
-Return / Double-Edge
-Drain Punch / Earthquake
What first comes to mind when thinking about counters to Kangaskhan? Alomomola, Tangela, Metang, Musharna, Weezing, and Gurdurr. This set can potentially beat the former four mentioned, and possibly Weezing if the player predicts right, and can also do work to teams that don't have the said counters.
So typically, a player goes to one of the said counters to Kangaskhan, predicting a Fake Out or whatever, but this set is prepared for that. This is a wall-breaking setup sweeper that is still capable of sweeping slow bulky teams. The EV spread lets Kangaskhan live a hit behind a Substitute, like Alomomola's Waterfall and possibly Tangela's Giga Drain and Metang's Meteor Mash which leads it to setup a Work Up, its only decent setup move, and deal some heavy damage after some boosts. Return is the STAB of choice, as it doesn't hinder down Kangaskhan's HP unlike Double-Edge, but it is still a pretty viable option due to having a better Base Power. Drain Punch or Earthquake is mandatory on offensive Kangaskhan due to it and its normal STAB move of choice having perfect neutral coverage. Leftovers is the item of choice as it provides Kangaskhan a way to heal itself and can get rid of some 3HKOs / 4HKOs some of the counters may use against Kangaskhan.
EDIT: Found a battle with this set doing work on a balanced team. (setting up starts on Turn 11, Sawsbuck's Double Edge does 56% max, so Kangaskhan would've still swept anyway.)
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
-Substitute
-Work Up
-Return / Double-Edge
-Drain Punch / Earthquake
What first comes to mind when thinking about counters to Kangaskhan? Alomomola, Tangela, Metang, Musharna, Weezing, and Gurdurr. This set can potentially beat the former four mentioned, and possibly Weezing if the player predicts right, and can also do work to teams that don't have the said counters.
So typically, a player goes to one of the said counters to Kangaskhan, predicting a Fake Out or whatever, but this set is prepared for that. This is a wall-breaking setup sweeper that is still capable of sweeping slow bulky teams. The EV spread lets Kangaskhan live a hit behind a Substitute, like Alomomola's Waterfall and possibly Tangela's Giga Drain and Metang's Meteor Mash which leads it to setup a Work Up, its only decent setup move, and deal some heavy damage after some boosts. Return is the STAB of choice, as it doesn't hinder down Kangaskhan's HP unlike Double-Edge, but it is still a pretty viable option due to having a better Base Power. Drain Punch or Earthquake is mandatory on offensive Kangaskhan due to it and its normal STAB move of choice having perfect neutral coverage. Leftovers is the item of choice as it provides Kangaskhan a way to heal itself and can get rid of some 3HKOs / 4HKOs some of the counters may use against Kangaskhan.
0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 252HP/0Def Kangaskhan (Neutral): 19% - 23% (82 - 97 HP). Guaranteed 6HKO.
252Atk +3 Scrappy Kangaskhan (+Atk) Return vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 57% - 67% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk +3 Scrappy Kangaskhan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Light Metal Metang (+Def): 40% - 47% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
0Atk Metang (Neutral) Meteor Mash vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Kangaskhan (Neutral): 24% - 28%. Guaranteed 5HKO.
0SpAtk Musharna (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Kangaskhan (Neutral): 29% - 35% (124 - 147 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk +2 Scrappy Kangaskhan (+Atk) Return vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 54% - 63% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Kangaskhan, in most cases, can reach +3 because it can live hits behind the Substitute and is left at about 78%~~
252Atk +3 Scrappy Kangaskhan (+Atk) Return vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 57% - 67% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk +3 Scrappy Kangaskhan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Light Metal Metang (+Def): 40% - 47% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
0Atk Metang (Neutral) Meteor Mash vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Kangaskhan (Neutral): 24% - 28%. Guaranteed 5HKO.
0SpAtk Musharna (Neutral) Psychic vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Kangaskhan (Neutral): 29% - 35% (124 - 147 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk +2 Scrappy Kangaskhan (+Atk) Return vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 54% - 63% (237 - 279 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Kangaskhan, in most cases, can reach +3 because it can live hits behind the Substitute and is left at about 78%~~
EDIT: Found a battle with this set doing work on a balanced team. (setting up starts on Turn 11, Sawsbuck's Double Edge does 56% max, so Kangaskhan would've still swept anyway.)
Nicolaibalu (Kangaskhan) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 176 Spd / 252 HP / 80 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic/Focus Punch
- Circle Throw
- Return
So let me have a try on this one :)
Introducing: Toxic shufflin' Kangaskhan.
What does this set do?: This set tries to punish the usual switch ins for Kangaskhan. Substitute with maximum HP investment lets walls like Tangela and Alomomola no chance at taking the sub down. Kangaskhan will then start toxicing and start to shuffle pokes around with Circle Throw. Not even ghosts are safe due to scrappy.
You might notice that I put Focus Punch in, this should be the primary option if your team has toxic spike support, because Focus Punch helps dealing with steel types that cant be poisoned.
The given speed EV's and a jolly nature makes sure he outspeeds fully invested base 80 that might try to use substitute themself to avoid being poisoned.
Return is the hardest hitting move on this set, still strong enough to OHKO Jynx. But one could also use fake out or sucker punch if they are in need of priority moves, it also helps to fake a "standard" Kangaskhan set.
Kangaskhan (F) @ Silk Scarf
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Fake Out
- Toxic
i don't know if this is big enough of a change from the standard set but i'm gonna post this anyways because it's amazing!! zeb and i have used this set for months now and it does everything the standard set does but also cripples common counters such as alomomola, regirock, and tangela. most of the time kangaskhan is spamming fake out and double edge anyways so it doesn't really take away from its offensive potential at all.
Previous Set (I have learned that this set is illegal.)
The New Set
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Inner Focus / Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 228 Def
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Wish / Toxic
- Toxic / Return
- Double-Edge / Focus Punch
Well, now that I know that my original set was only accepted by PS via some sort of hiccup, I have decided to insert a new set that is similar to the first, but with some tweaks that make it legal, but not any less effective.
So the concept of my original set was to take advantage of the fear Kangaskhan instills in weakened sweepers with her infamous double priority set to set up a Substitute on the switch-out, then proceed to Toxic and Wish to keep herself healthy. The primary Trait on the set is now Inner Focus. I know just as much as anyone that it's a huge bummer that the set can't be used to its full potential, with Scrappy letting Kangy hit those pesky Ghost-Types with a powerful Double-Edge, but I still think that Inner Focus can accomplish the same things that the previous set could, to an extent. Inner Focus prevents other Kangaskhan from stopping your Sub shenanigans after they have seen your set, allowing you to set up right in their face and hit them with a Toxic, effectively crippling them for the time being.
Sub and Wish are the crux of the set. Substitute allows Kangaskhan to take at the least a single hit, allowing it to Toxic the attacker and maybe hit something. The Sub also allows you to escape walls like Alomomola and Tangela's status ailments that would otherwise stop your sweep cold. Wish is a cool tool at Kangaskhan's disposal, allowing her to heal back all of the recoil from Double-Edge as well as the sacrifice she gives to the Sub Gods. Toxic is very pivotal to the set's success, so if you do decide to forego Wish (and Inner Focus altogether), Toxic is the most important secondary option.
Over Toxic, you can run Return if you decide to run Scrappy. I would suggest Double Edge, but you don't have the reliable health regeneration that Wish provides, so you die much easier.
In the last spot, Double-Edge is used, as it has fantastic move synergy with Wish, allowing Kangaskhan to get all the recoil back. In its place if you want to run Scrappy, you can use Focus Punch, which allows you to hit Steel-Types that switch in to you. It also has good move synergy with Sub, allowing her to fire off Focus Punches very safely.
I guess that's the best I'm gonna do with the set legally. I'm certain that the small chance of my set getting high votes is pretty much gone, but I decided to keep the modified post up so that someone reading the thread may want to try out Inner Focus Khan and see how it fairs, though still being outclassed by Scrappy in every way.
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 228 Def
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Wish
- Toxic / Focus Punch
- Double-Edge
Believe it or not, I've used this set and it works like a charm. Kangaskhan's strong Attack stat coupled with its set of decet desensive stats, the start of which is a massive HP stat, make him an excellent tank. But i decided to take this a step further. Kangaskhan scares so many things out that it's almost too easy to set a sub up. After that, you go to work. Wish is an amazing move for Kangaskhan, as she gets to heal back all of her sub and Double-Edge recoil. Toxic is a really cool option, letting you wear down Alomomola and Tangela, who do well against Kangaskhan, but I've also been using Focus Punch due to people thinking it's a good idea to bring in their Golem or Probopass to take a Fake Out when I switch in to a weakened sweeper (of course, I could also set up a sub, but Golem has Rock Blast, but I think it needs somewhere around 3 hits to break the sub. don't quote me on that, though :P) and Focus Punch just decimates them. Double-Edge is Kangy's best STAB for the set as Wish lets him revive back all the recoil.
I know this set may seem odd, but i decided to post it because it's what I think is truly the Next Best Thing to Kangaskhan's current sets.
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 228 Def
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Wish
- Toxic / Focus Punch
- Double-Edge
Believe it or not, I've used this set and it works like a charm. Kangaskhan's strong Attack stat coupled with its set of decet desensive stats, the start of which is a massive HP stat, make him an excellent tank. But i decided to take this a step further. Kangaskhan scares so many things out that it's almost too easy to set a sub up. After that, you go to work. Wish is an amazing move for Kangaskhan, as she gets to heal back all of her sub and Double-Edge recoil. Toxic is a really cool option, letting you wear down Alomomola and Tangela, who do well against Kangaskhan, but I've also been using Focus Punch due to people thinking it's a good idea to bring in their Golem or Probopass to take a Fake Out when I switch in to a weakened sweeper (of course, I could also set up a sub, but Golem has Rock Blast, but I think it needs somewhere around 3 hits to break the sub. don't quote me on that, though :P) and Focus Punch just decimates them. Double-Edge is Kangy's best STAB for the set as Wish lets him revive back all the recoil.
I know this set may seem odd, but i decided to post it because it's what I think is truly the Next Best Thing to Kangaskhan's current sets.
The New Set
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Inner Focus / Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 228 Def
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Wish / Toxic
- Toxic / Return
- Double-Edge / Focus Punch
Well, now that I know that my original set was only accepted by PS via some sort of hiccup, I have decided to insert a new set that is similar to the first, but with some tweaks that make it legal, but not any less effective.
So the concept of my original set was to take advantage of the fear Kangaskhan instills in weakened sweepers with her infamous double priority set to set up a Substitute on the switch-out, then proceed to Toxic and Wish to keep herself healthy. The primary Trait on the set is now Inner Focus. I know just as much as anyone that it's a huge bummer that the set can't be used to its full potential, with Scrappy letting Kangy hit those pesky Ghost-Types with a powerful Double-Edge, but I still think that Inner Focus can accomplish the same things that the previous set could, to an extent. Inner Focus prevents other Kangaskhan from stopping your Sub shenanigans after they have seen your set, allowing you to set up right in their face and hit them with a Toxic, effectively crippling them for the time being.
Sub and Wish are the crux of the set. Substitute allows Kangaskhan to take at the least a single hit, allowing it to Toxic the attacker and maybe hit something. The Sub also allows you to escape walls like Alomomola and Tangela's status ailments that would otherwise stop your sweep cold. Wish is a cool tool at Kangaskhan's disposal, allowing her to heal back all of the recoil from Double-Edge as well as the sacrifice she gives to the Sub Gods. Toxic is very pivotal to the set's success, so if you do decide to forego Wish (and Inner Focus altogether), Toxic is the most important secondary option.
Over Toxic, you can run Return if you decide to run Scrappy. I would suggest Double Edge, but you don't have the reliable health regeneration that Wish provides, so you die much easier.
In the last spot, Double-Edge is used, as it has fantastic move synergy with Wish, allowing Kangaskhan to get all the recoil back. In its place if you want to run Scrappy, you can use Focus Punch, which allows you to hit Steel-Types that switch in to you. It also has good move synergy with Sub, allowing her to fire off Focus Punches very safely.
I guess that's the best I'm gonna do with the set legally. I'm certain that the small chance of my set getting high votes is pretty much gone, but I decided to keep the modified post up so that someone reading the thread may want to try out Inner Focus Khan and see how it fairs, though still being outclassed by Scrappy in every way.
Kangaskan @Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
8HP/ 248 At/ 252 Speed Jolly Nature
Substitute
Disable
Double Edge
Toxic/ Earthquake
Works similarly to Sub disable Haunter. While Kangaskan is a little slower than Haunter, Kanga makes this up with better bulk. Once a bulky physical poke is coming in onto Kanga, Kanga can sub up, get a hit on them, and then use disable. Most walls usually only have one attacking move, so you are free to set up more subs. Double edge is there to hit hard. The last slot has a couple options. Toxic is convenient for beating those pesky walls that kanga attracts, however, this set could not hit steel types. Drain punch could be used to recover even more hp, though earthquake has very good coverage with double edge and hits much harder.
Kangaskhan (F) @ Salac Berry
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 248 Atk / 252 Spd / 8 HP
Jolly Nature
- Reversal
- Substitute/Endure
- Sucker Punch
- Work Up/Endeavor/Fake Out
Classic Salac-Reversal strategy. The essential idea is to Sub/Endure down to 1HP however you choose and wreck havoc on anything that doesn't resist Reversal (including ghosts, thanks to Scrappy-a huge boon to this set) while Sucker Punch helps to take care of revenge killers. Work Up is a lackluster boosting move, but is Kangaskhan's only one and is necessary for an early- to mid-game sweep due to Sucker Punch's inability to OHKO most things like Swellow, who would otherwise revenge with a Quick Attack. Thankfully, Kangaskhan's bulk allows opportunities to use Work Ups behind a Sub or before having to Endure.
As for other options in the last slot, Endeavor is an interesting addition to the set because of it's ability to leave something you can't beat otherwise, such as Musharna, at 1HP before you faint (or before it breaks your Sub, if you managed to keep one up).
Fake Out can be used in conjunction with Sucker Punch to allow Kangaskhan expanded utility outside of the theme of this set and act as a revenge killer. Endure is the preferred option when running Fake Out because multiple switches for revenge killing will leave you vulnerable to entry hazard damage whether you bring a spinner or not.
As Treecko37 points out below, the set is vulnerable to bulky psychic types. If you lack confidence in your prediction game, you can run Crunch over Sucker Punch, or Return in the last moveslot.
Kangaskhan (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Disable
dont have much time for this, actually a couple minutes xD
this set is very good in the right situations, if you are up against a physical wall you are 9 times out of 10 going to lose. with the right support to kill common physical walls this kangaskhan can be a monster. i use eelektross as a common wall killer, it takes care of alomomola, tangela etc that would endlessly wall him. if you have weakened most of the opponents team this set makes an amazing clean up poke. with the ability to sub punch, and sub disable it is a set that is very strong and will catch people off guard. if you use him on a phasing team or just a team that gets a lot of hazards up in general kangaskhan makes a very good attacker.
there are many ways you can safely switch in kangaskhan;
misdreavus is becoming very popular and even if it is physically defensive this set usually will work. if you switch in on a shadow ball or heal bell or something you can set up a sub to scout. if they dont have foul play they will usually switch, but if they stay in they are probably going to WoW or foul play, you can disable the foul play and set up another sub on the switch out.
thats about all i have time for right now though i could go on an on xD
moral of the story: this set CAN do work
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Disable
dont have much time for this, actually a couple minutes xD
this set is very good in the right situations, if you are up against a physical wall you are 9 times out of 10 going to lose. with the right support to kill common physical walls this kangaskhan can be a monster. i use eelektross as a common wall killer, it takes care of alomomola, tangela etc that would endlessly wall him. if you have weakened most of the opponents team this set makes an amazing clean up poke. with the ability to sub punch, and sub disable it is a set that is very strong and will catch people off guard. if you use him on a phasing team or just a team that gets a lot of hazards up in general kangaskhan makes a very good attacker.
there are many ways you can safely switch in kangaskhan;
misdreavus is becoming very popular and even if it is physically defensive this set usually will work. if you switch in on a shadow ball or heal bell or something you can set up a sub to scout. if they dont have foul play they will usually switch, but if they stay in they are probably going to WoW or foul play, you can disable the foul play and set up another sub on the switch out.
thats about all i have time for right now though i could go on an on xD
moral of the story: this set CAN do work
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Double-Edge / Return
- Earthquake / Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
Using Substitute on Kangaskhan over Fake Out lets it block debilitating status moves from Misdreavus and other defensive mons and block weaker hits and continue hammering away at defensive pokemon. It also lets Kangaskhan dodge hits from pokemon that might otherwise force it out and then slamthem with a powerful STAB attack to KO them. This lets Kangaskhan stay in and be of service to the team for longer than it would if it had no way to deal with these threats. The attacking options grant Kangaskhan great coverage as well as priority, with the secondary slashes being options to limit HP loss in conjunction with Substitute. Most things that could take hits from this set like Alomomola are on the decline anyways, giving way to frailer threats which this set does well against.
Just posting briefly to comment on dwib's set. A lot of the other sets look really cool as well, and I'm excited to try FLCL's and Nicolaibalu's in particular!
I would probably recommend Return in the last slot on your set dwib. While all of the options you listed are good in their own regard, they are mainly niche moves on that particular set. Work Up could be pretty cool though. Regardless, bulky Psychic types run train over the set as is, and it relies on Sucker Punch to hit them--and they very well may not be attacking you, so this is a bit unreliable. Since STAB Return hits for slightly less damage than a SE Sucker Punch does, it would probably be greatly appreciated on the set. I would also consider slashing Drain Punch with Reversal. While Reversal is sort of the point of the set, Drain Punch allows it to be more reliable for someone who doesn't feel comfortable running Reversal. All in all, it's a really cool concept though, and I could see it working pretty well. n_n
I would probably recommend Return in the last slot on your set dwib. While all of the options you listed are good in their own regard, they are mainly niche moves on that particular set. Work Up could be pretty cool though. Regardless, bulky Psychic types run train over the set as is, and it relies on Sucker Punch to hit them--and they very well may not be attacking you, so this is a bit unreliable. Since STAB Return hits for slightly less damage than a SE Sucker Punch does, it would probably be greatly appreciated on the set. I would also consider slashing Drain Punch with Reversal. While Reversal is sort of the point of the set, Drain Punch allows it to be more reliable for someone who doesn't feel comfortable running Reversal. All in all, it's a really cool concept though, and I could see it working pretty well. n_n
Reserving sub/toxic/return/EQ.
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Double-Edge / Return
- Earthquake
- Toxic
Rawr treecko37 I will topple you from your throne. Posts with substitute and toxic have already been tossed around, but combining both is where it's at. Toxic hits some of the best switch ins to kangashkhan including cradily, alomomola, tangela, and golurk. Double edge and earthquake hit everything for good damage that isn't one of the aforementioned pokemon. Gurdurr and weezing still stick out as very annoying counters, but when kangashkhan is paired with a gardevoir or other psychic type they can be annihilated. Substitute allows kangashkhan to fully abuse his great HP and decent defense stats. Fake out works over substitute, but substitute has more staying power.
Also I think wish is illegal with scrappy.
Kangaskhan @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Double-Edge / Return
- Earthquake
- Toxic
Rawr treecko37 I will topple you from your throne. Posts with substitute and toxic have already been tossed around, but combining both is where it's at. Toxic hits some of the best switch ins to kangashkhan including cradily, alomomola, tangela, and golurk. Double edge and earthquake hit everything for good damage that isn't one of the aforementioned pokemon. Gurdurr and weezing still stick out as very annoying counters, but when kangashkhan is paired with a gardevoir or other psychic type they can be annihilated. Substitute allows kangashkhan to fully abuse his great HP and decent defense stats. Fake out works over substitute, but substitute has more staying power.
Also I think wish is illegal with scrappy.
Oh hey, I guess Wish IS illegal with Scrappy. I wonder why PS let me use them in the same set :S
Well, that's a bummer. I guess my set's illegal. I may be able to alter it slightly, but it basically loses its effectiveness due to not being able to hit Ghost-Types anymore.
If it's cool with Starships, I'm gonna go edit my set.
Well, that's a bummer. I guess my set's illegal. I may be able to alter it slightly, but it basically loses its effectiveness due to not being able to hit Ghost-Types anymore.
If it's cool with Starships, I'm gonna go edit my set.
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