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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Slack off Krookodile
Hmm, Regenerator Registeel looks quite interesting. It already has crazy bulk, 80 / 150 / 150 defenses are amazing, and Regenerator will only make it more difficult to take down. Registeel has always suffered from a lack of reliable recovery, and this fixes that somewhat, and it isn't like Registeel lacks switch in opportunities either, as with its Steel-typing, it can often switch in on resisted attacks and keep momentum while recovering itself in the process. This still doesn't solve the unfortunate issue of its lack of offensive presence, which is a pity since its offensive stats are somewhat salvageable. I guess it doesn't really need to be entirely offensive, as I see it functioning as a pivot that can frequently switch in and out, set up Stealth Rock when necessary (it walls a lot of the common Defog users), and spread status with Thunder Wave and Toxic. The idea of pivoting defensively is relatively unexplored, and I don't mean a defensive Pokemon such as Forretress using Volt Switch, I mean a Pokemon pivoting, retaining momentum solely due to its defensive capabilities, and being able to frequently do what defensive Pokemon commonly do, spread hazards and status. It has Seismic Toss too, which is helpful if Registeel wants to break through things that can't do anything to it. Its immunity to Toxic is also pretty cool for a Pokemon like Registeel that is hard to wear down by other means, and it doesn't particularly mind paralysis as its Speed is naturally quite low. Overall, I believe that Registeel won't be that great, but it will certainly be viable as a defensive pivot with insane bulk and a decent support movepool.
Hmm, you miss something important... Registeel HAS an offensive set, but it was always used with Gravity. Zap Cannon/Thunder and Focus Blast come to mind for the special side, substituting for all the garbage stats it has with over powered move power. On the physical side, it has access to hammer arm/Dynamic Punch, Rock slide, and most importantly, Earthquake, making it an incredible tank if you want to add to the offensive pressence. I used Porygon2 much the same way as a gravity setter: Dual coverage, Gravity, recover. Registeel has recover in as an ability, so can go triple attack or set rocks.
However, there are a few other noticeable moves that really benefit here. Counter being the main source, which allows Registeel to have a physical attacking move that basically just does damage via what the opponent did. With regenerator when switching out and Registeel being nigh impossible to OHKO (still with respectable HP Stat, making him still take respectable chunks of his HP from physical hits), registeel can take on most physical attackers via counter and win. This might allow registeel to go special defensive, set rocks and then just return hits via counter. But having rain dance, sunny day, sand storm, gravity, and Stealth rocks, I think Registeel's best job would be a constant setter. He basically can set anything reliably, do so often and not have to waste turns to recover off, making him a fantastic late game setter.
As a defensive pokemon, his role would be interesting as a consistent rain dance setter and rocker on stall... Allows him to benefit defensively from weakened fire, abuse thunder, and have a more versatile recovery outside of rest. This guy would almost be a staple for weather- and gravity-based teams if he existed in the actual meta.
However, there are a few other noticeable moves that really benefit here. Counter being the main source, which allows Registeel to have a physical attacking move that basically just does damage via what the opponent did. With regenerator when switching out and Registeel being nigh impossible to OHKO (still with respectable HP Stat, making him still take respectable chunks of his HP from physical hits), registeel can take on most physical attackers via counter and win. This might allow registeel to go special defensive, set rocks and then just return hits via counter. But having rain dance, sunny day, sand storm, gravity, and Stealth rocks, I think Registeel's best job would be a constant setter. He basically can set anything reliably, do so often and not have to waste turns to recover off, making him a fantastic late game setter.
As a defensive pokemon, his role would be interesting as a consistent rain dance setter and rocker on stall... Allows him to benefit defensively from weakened fire, abuse thunder, and have a more versatile recovery outside of rest. This guy would almost be a staple for weather- and gravity-based teams if he existed in the actual meta.
Regenerator Registeel seems like a good check/counter to some important OU threats these days, such as Greninja, Latios, Talonflame, Dragonite, Gengar, and more. But I'm still skeptical on his viability in OU. Threats that he can't do anything against or can't always directly switch into, such as Terrakion, Aegislash, Scizor, Mega Charizard X and Y, Conkeldurr, Excadrill, and many others are common threats that can easily punch holes in him. Here are a few calculations:
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 152-182 (41.76% - 50.00%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 212 - 252 (58.24% - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SAtk Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast (Sun) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SDef Registeel: 372 - 438 (102.20% - 120.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 182 - 216 (50.00% - 59.34%) -- 73.31% chance of 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And while some Pokemon can't threaten him immediately, if Registeel can't Toxic them, they can easily set up on him and wreck him. For example:
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 194 - 230 (53.30% - 63.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 290 - 342 (79.67% - 93.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And another point, while it's true he has Regenerator to heal off damage, he has to switch in order to recover, meaning you may have to sack something just to get 1/3 of your health back. He also has to face competition with other defensive Pokemon with Regenerator, such as Slowbro and Amoongus, who boast Slack Off and Synthesis, respectively, have more variety when it comes to status moves, and have better offensive stats. However, Registeel's superior defensive stats, access to Stealth Rock, and Steel typing are what make him unique among Regenerators. If Registeel were to get something like Recover, I think he'd get much more love, but I just don't think giving him Regenerator would make a significant impact in OU.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 152-182 (41.76% - 50.00%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 212 - 252 (58.24% - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SAtk Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast (Sun) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SDef Registeel: 372 - 438 (102.20% - 120.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 182 - 216 (50.00% - 59.34%) -- 73.31% chance of 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And while some Pokemon can't threaten him immediately, if Registeel can't Toxic them, they can easily set up on him and wreck him. For example:
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 194 - 230 (53.30% - 63.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 290 - 342 (79.67% - 93.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And another point, while it's true he has Regenerator to heal off damage, he has to switch in order to recover, meaning you may have to sack something just to get 1/3 of your health back. He also has to face competition with other defensive Pokemon with Regenerator, such as Slowbro and Amoongus, who boast Slack Off and Synthesis, respectively, have more variety when it comes to status moves, and have better offensive stats. However, Registeel's superior defensive stats, access to Stealth Rock, and Steel typing are what make him unique among Regenerators. If Registeel were to get something like Recover, I think he'd get much more love, but I just don't think giving him Regenerator would make a significant impact in OU.
The calcs above show why Registeel is still nothing more than a niche option. Even though its defenses are great, pure Steel typing is not very good. If you go through the S and A ranks on the OU viability thread, pretty much everything can hit it for at least neutral damage with its STABs or SE damage with a coverage move. All Registeel can do back is Toxic stuff, but it has no usable recovery while it stays on the field, so it cannot stall much out. Actually, now that I think about it, Regenerator is a perfect ability for Registeel. It runs into so many bad matchups, it might as well get some health back as it flees.
I think that Regenerator on Registeel doesn't help enough in resolving the problems that make him a poor choice in OU.
Pros
Pros
- 80/150/150 defenses (a flat equivalent would be 116/116/116)
- 9 resistances, 1 immunity
- has access to a form of recovery
- one of few Gravity users (although Clefable and Porygon2 do this better)
- can survive Terakkion's CC, Keldeo's SS, Lando's EQ, among other things
- can effectively wall most Pokemon without super effective hits / boosting moves
- can status with Thunder Wave / Toxic to end a Pokemon's sweep
- 75/75 offenses, ergo no presence
- 3 common weaknesses
- ridiculously weak, can't even OHKO M-Pinsir with Rock Slide, Bisharp with Hammer Arm, Gyarados with Thunderbolt
- barren support movepool (T-Wave, Toxic, SR, that's pretty much it)
- still gets ruined by a lot of boosted threats
- competes with several Pokemon for the role of defensive pivot
- needs Seismic toss to do damage
- slow as molasses, naturally
- needs to switch out in order to regain health, meaning it can't wall for extended periods of time -- at some point, it has to fall
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Honestly I would like Regenerator Regirock/Regice more because they have at least some offensive presence (I think like 100 base attack and special attack respectively).
I feel like Counter could be a cute little surprise on Registeel, seeing those calculations above. Regenerator has pretty decent synergy with Counter, and it could catch some of its checks and counters by surprise.
That's the only thing in its movepool that hasn't been mentioned that I thought could have a little use.
Sigh. Poor Registeel. I feel like it's gonna take Filter (although Regenerator is pretty cool, too), Recover, Whirlwind, and Knock Off to give it any utility options at all. Hell, this thing doesn't even learn Magic Coat to keep it from being Taunt bait.
That's the only thing in its movepool that hasn't been mentioned that I thought could have a little use.
Sigh. Poor Registeel. I feel like it's gonna take Filter (although Regenerator is pretty cool, too), Recover, Whirlwind, and Knock Off to give it any utility options at all. Hell, this thing doesn't even learn Magic Coat to keep it from being Taunt bait.
I would try to use this set if Regenerator Registeel would exist in the meta,
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
4HP/252Def/252SDef
Impish Nature
-Toxic
-Counter
-Swagger
-Recover
Toxic's for non steel type pokes. Counter's for physical Pokemon specially for steel types. Swagger's kinda gimmick, but the more you receive damage from a physical attack, the more power the move Counter could get. And Finally, Recover makes you gain the HP you've lost from countering/stalling the toxic/confused Pokemon. The only checks for this set's a special steel type, like Heatran. the smartest thing you should do is to switch out Registeel thus, recovering some HP using the Regenerator ability. :)
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
4HP/252Def/252SDef
Impish Nature
-Toxic
-Counter
-Swagger
-Recover
Toxic's for non steel type pokes. Counter's for physical Pokemon specially for steel types. Swagger's kinda gimmick, but the more you receive damage from a physical attack, the more power the move Counter could get. And Finally, Recover makes you gain the HP you've lost from countering/stalling the toxic/confused Pokemon. The only checks for this set's a special steel type, like Heatran. the smartest thing you should do is to switch out Registeel thus, recovering some HP using the Regenerator ability. :)
It doesn't get Recover... which is basically the one reason that no-one uses Registeel. :(
oh. then Bulldoze over Recover. so that once you switch out Registeel and lowered the foe's speed, you can just easily make the opposing pokemon faint. Registeel then will become my core.
Anybody who has played DPPt UU knows that Registeel is a huge hurdle for Hyper Offensive teams, and as such, Regenerator Registeel would have been perfect in the Gen V metagame. However, the current metagame isn't as kind to Registeel. Bulky Offense is the new king, meaning Registeel isn't able to do as much damage back as he wants. Combined with everybody and their mother being overprepared for Aegislash, which has pretty much the same weaknesses/resistances/stat spread, Registeel isn't looking so hot. Unlike Aegislash, it would be able to comfortably take on Greninja and Kyurem-B, two very dangerous threats, but aside from that, it fails to make much more of an impression.
I think it is safe to say that a majority of the people who are interested in this thread have been very disappointed with last two Theorymons which have won. I find it disappointing that of the 24 people who voted for Registeel, very few of them have said why they think it would be good. I think we should discuss the slate of Theorymons before we vote on them so that people (hopefully) know what they are voting for before they vote. Right now, it just seems like this is a popularity contest.
We do not change game mechanics in this thread, we just make changes to typing and add moves and abilities to Pokemon. However, you can suggest giving a Pokemon the Unburden ability which doubles speed if an item is knocked off or consumed.
Regenerator registers fails as badly as flash fire gourgeist, and roost empoleon.
They sound great on paper but fail to do anything notable besides take a little longer to get beat up.
And that's the problem with our defensive theorymons. We're just suggesting ways to delay the inevitable. Instead we should be giving defensive theorymons the ability to get over their biggest weaknesses.
Empoleon should have gotten lightening rod. That would have cemented him as a special defensive wall that could scare off thundurus with ice beam.
Flash fire gourgeist was a hopeless case as it needs more buffs to outclass trevenant.
Even now, regenerator registers, its just so hopelessly bad. How does regenerator stop top threats like the zards, garchomp, keldeo, and many many others from ripping him apart? It doesn't! It just takes longer.
And like how Red Cat said, of the 24 votes for registeel I think I can safely guess that none of them have come to its defense.
The majority of the posts suggesting sets and stuff post to the tone of "well, I guess it could sort of do this... But it's outclassed, so..."
alexwolf I think it's a good idea for submissions to also include the potential niche it would cover. It's because of topics like this that the thread is losing momentum.
They sound great on paper but fail to do anything notable besides take a little longer to get beat up.
And that's the problem with our defensive theorymons. We're just suggesting ways to delay the inevitable. Instead we should be giving defensive theorymons the ability to get over their biggest weaknesses.
Empoleon should have gotten lightening rod. That would have cemented him as a special defensive wall that could scare off thundurus with ice beam.
Flash fire gourgeist was a hopeless case as it needs more buffs to outclass trevenant.
Even now, regenerator registers, its just so hopelessly bad. How does regenerator stop top threats like the zards, garchomp, keldeo, and many many others from ripping him apart? It doesn't! It just takes longer.
And like how Red Cat said, of the 24 votes for registeel I think I can safely guess that none of them have come to its defense.
The majority of the posts suggesting sets and stuff post to the tone of "well, I guess it could sort of do this... But it's outclassed, so..."
alexwolf I think it's a good idea for submissions to also include the potential niche it would cover. It's because of topics like this that the thread is losing momentum.
Regenerator Registeel has steel (Edit: i leave the mistake as i find it funny xD) a good niche in the game, i agree it doesn't counter big threats such as M-pinsir/M-Zard but the aim of theorymon is not to check all the threats we want (in our dream) to ban. Registeel can perfectly run in a team with amoongus and slowbro in order to form a good defensive regenerator core. That is the set i should run in this case :
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Brick Break
Brick break is here in order to threaten bisharp/Tyranitar which otherwise can come in Amoongus/Slowbrow, Iron Head is for hitting Fairy type that it counter.
Always in this mind of regenerator core, toxic is reliable as we can switch between our mons during the poison makes his effect.
Moreover, if we continue to add fairy type as it was the case during the last month, registeel will always be a good choice in order to deal with them.
Registeel @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Brick Break
Brick break is here in order to threaten bisharp/Tyranitar which otherwise can come in Amoongus/Slowbrow, Iron Head is for hitting Fairy type that it counter.
Always in this mind of regenerator core, toxic is reliable as we can switch between our mons during the poison makes his effect.
Moreover, if we continue to add fairy type as it was the case during the last month, registeel will always be a good choice in order to deal with them.
4 Atk Registeel Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 172-204 (63.4 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Registeel Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 124-148 (36.3 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I think these calcs show just how bad a 75 BP move coming off an uninvested 75 base attack is. Mega Tyranitar gets a clean 2HKO after Dragon Dance which makes Registeel a pitiful check. Even Bisharp can batter through Registeel if it tries to switch in against Bisharp. This is what frustrates me about Gourgeist and Registeel. People just assumed that they would be good because they sounded good at first glance, but then others ran the calcs and determined that these two fail to do what we thought they could do.
As for checking major threats, that is what we should be doing or we are just wasting our time turning RU Pokemon into UU Pokemon. The OU metagame is very offensive right now, and I'd like to see just how close we are to having a balanced metagame. Are we only a handful of good Theorymons away from a balanced metagame, or is it impossible to deal with all of the offensive threats which Game Freak has created without creating something ridiculous flavor-wise? We're never going to answer that question if we keep trotting out things like Flash-Fire Gourgeist and Regenerator Registeel. I would like to see us aim high with these Theorymons from a competitive standpoint. It would be interesting if we could make Theorymons that are good enough defensively to bring Genesect, Mega Lucario, Mega Kangaskan, etc. into the OU Theorymon metagame and still maintain a balanced metagame.
Regenerator doesn't help walls as much as pivots and SR weak Pokemon like Ho-oh. It's a buff to whoever gets it, but since it doesn't actually help mons take hits, it just suits Pokemon that plan to switch a lot. Regenerator Registeel/Registers seems like the kind of thing that can easily help other mons get switch-in opportunities and possibly spread status, though admittedly it still has its fair share of problems.
The problem I have with your post is that you're basically saying lackluster Theorymon like this are bad/causing the thread to lose momentum. This thread isn't about coming up with the next potential game-changing mon; we're just buffing lackluster mons and theorizing how they would affect things. It's okay if they don't shake up the metagame and wall/destroy every mon you could conceivably come across. My Roost Empoleon suggestion was pretty easily the worst viability-wise of the first batch, but the discussion surrounding it was good, so who really cares? We agreed that it wouldn't help Empoleon enough to make it a great threat, argued a bit about why, and moved on. That's fine.
If you think this thread is really losing steam because some of the mons aren't game-changing, I invite you to reread sections where we discuss such problems as why Scary Face isn't a good option on anything ever. Personally (ie. this is my opinion, doesn't mean it's necessarily right,) I think the thread needs more quality posts and quality submissions than anything else. I don't know what Mr. Wolf is working with right now, but as I believe he said earlier, we need to submit better ideas if we want to see them come up. As for quality posts, that's also not that hard to do. Few people tackle the questions we try to answer here (usually they're in the OP but that's still displaying Gourgeist.) Instead, we get complaining about why people don't like the current theorymon and gimmick sets that don't really address anything.
Registeel still has problems in lack of a recovery move, common weaknesses by virtue of being a Steel-type, lack of offensive presence and overall poor movepool. As a result, we probably want to make sets that do their work quickly and don't require anything fancy. The two viable sets I see are a straight utility-pivot set and a Rain/Sand setter. Honestly, there's no reason to run any attacks other than Seismic Toss, so on the Utility set you could maybe even afford to run T-Wave alongside Toxic. Fitting both statuses on one mon could potentially be very useful for alternately crippling fast offensive threats or putting bulkier stuff on a timer. Either or could certainly be effective, as long as you plan to use your support moves on the switch while utilizing Registeel's bulk and typing to create switch-in opportunities for other mons.
The best way to deal with Registeel is to simply overpower it in one go with Fire, Ground and Fighting-type moves. There's no shortage of those, but you want to be careful that you don't eat a T-Wave or Toxic on the way in. The best possible switch-in is definitely Excadrill, who cannot be statused either way, threatens to EQ Registeel into oblivion and can even spin away his SR.
Again, it doesn't really shake up the metagame, so we could expect little to change. It's just a nice toy for bulkier teams is all.
Magma
Guest
Yeah, I'm going to hop on the bashing bandwagon and agree with how weak the last two theorymons have been...
and I was the one who suggested Flash Fire Gourgiest. Lol sorry people. (It was more of a flavor upgrade than a competitive one.)
So with that said, I wouldn't be opposed to scrapping Gourgiest for an extra round of voting, or giving the round to Intimidate Mega Aerodactyl.
Unfortunately, I could see how a few clauses might over-complicate things, so if alexwolf decides not to go this route, then the next best thing for us to do is: start submitting bulky offensive pivots instead of pure tanks. I personally found it easier to suggest theorymons with a specific defensive OU niche that could immediately put pressure on opposing teams (like Psychic/Normal Reuniclus, No Guard Regice, or Head Smash Cobalion) rather than trying to come up with the next Chansey.
and I was the one who suggested Flash Fire Gourgiest. Lol sorry people. (It was more of a flavor upgrade than a competitive one.)
So with that said, I wouldn't be opposed to scrapping Gourgiest for an extra round of voting, or giving the round to Intimidate Mega Aerodactyl.
Agreed. I already mentioned something similar to this to alexwolf. The current rules limit us to mostly UU/RU Pokemon and it's extremely hard to turn these Pokes into solid defensive options in OU with just one change (except for maybe slapping Fairy typing on it.) So to make things a little easier, I'm suggesting that we ease up on the rules for defensive theorymons by adding two clauses:
- Defensive upgrades are allowed on lower-class OU Pokemon (B rank)
- Two defensive upgrades are allowed on UU Pokemon (C rank and lower)
Empoleon instantly becomes one of the best utility mons in OU:
Roost (Seiterman) and Lightning Rod (LoDart210) together would allow Empoleon to hard counter all of the common OU Defoggers, making it easy to keep it's Stealth Rock up throughout the match. (Scizor, Zapdos, Lati@s, Mandibuzz, Skarmory are all crippled by Scald/Toxic and cant do anything back.) Also, it would be a full stop to Rotom-W's momentum (not to mention, it wouldn't mind getting burned too much thanks to Roost.)
Roost (Seiterman) and Lightning Rod (LoDart210) together would allow Empoleon to hard counter all of the common OU Defoggers, making it easy to keep it's Stealth Rock up throughout the match. (Scizor, Zapdos, Lati@s, Mandibuzz, Skarmory are all crippled by Scald/Toxic and cant do anything back.) Also, it would be a full stop to Rotom-W's momentum (not to mention, it wouldn't mind getting burned too much thanks to Roost.)
Dude don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we need to create a unbreakable wall or an unstoppable spear for it to be a good theorymon, and I don't care what gets voted up even if I don't like it. During the parting shot scrafty stage, even though I didn't like it, I contributed what I could and then limited myself to just reading others arguments.
My problem with the current pick and the one before isn't that they were suggested or voted in. It isn't that they aren't amazing Pokemon that vastly affect the meta game.
It's that we have theorymons winning, but nobody coming in to explain what they can now do. Afte voting in a theorymon that inspires discussion (e.g. Flash fire gourgeist, or roost empoleon [which I liked]) nobody actually discusses it.
Regenerator registeel won by a landslide, a landslide that stopped dead once the voting period ended. Nobody contributed a set or anything, but left it to a few posters who actually want to discuss.
In any case I pretty much hit the same conclusion. Regenerator registeel fails to give it an offensive presence outside of seismic toss, but who cares because he provides good support as a pivot. But with a support movepool that consists of toxic, t wave, rocks, and weather, he's not bringing much to the table. Same in terms of type..
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